Squat technique issues

flogen

OK - long story as short as possible.

Having been lazy for a few weeks I finally got myself back into the gym today and having picked up a copy of starting strength I decided to stop putting off barbell squats and start doing them asap (I had been doing dumbbell squats).

So having started the SS chapter on squats I quickly realised that I wasn't going nearly deep enough with my dumbbell technique to do it properly - at least as far as I can recall I wasn't.

So my first hurdle was to improve my flexibility, stance and balance in order to push beyond parallel, after that I can start to worry about the bar.

Today was my first chance to practice properly (as in in front of a full-length mirror where I could easily see my form) and I noticed a few things I wanted to ask about here.

Firstly, SS recommends shoulder-width heels with toes at a 30 degree angle or so... I found that extremely difficult to do as I kept losing balance once I got near parallel - is this just something I need to keep doing or is it OK to push my toes wider (although I know that will make it harder to keep my knees in line, which was something I was struggling to do when I did go closer to 45 degrees wide)?

What I tried to do today, without any bar or weight on me, was to start with my toes at a 45 degree angle or so and then slowly bring them in to something resembling 30... I did find it slightly easier to balance by the end of this so hopefully it's just a practice thing.

Secondly, and perhaps this ties in with my toes being too wide, I found my weight was going towards the inside of my feet when I squatted, regardless of the angle of my toes. It was never enough that the outside of my feet would lift (as that would push my knees inward anyway), but let's just say the outside of each foot was more touch the ground than pressing on it.

Is this normal, a habit I just need to force myself out of or a sign that my heels or toes were too wide for comfort?

I'd love to be able to show a video for people to pass judgement accurately but at the moment I can't do that - hopefully will in the near future.

Until then any advice is appreciated - hoping to keep doing weight-free squats until I feel my form is good enough to graduate to a bare bar, and then add weights from there on.

brianthebard

First question would be what shoes are you wearing? Did you do any ankle flexibility stuff beforehand? Personally find that makes it easier to squat, its a small thing but effective. Where you bending forward a bit as you squatted down, its hard/impossible to know without the video but that could've shifted the weight to the inside/ball of your foot as you lowered, especially in runners.

wasabi

This might help
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1856085&cr

as might this:
http://www.davedraper.com/blog/2006/11/04/what-are-goblet-squats-goblet-squat-instruction/

and this:
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_AirSquats.wmv

Sounds like you might be bringing the feet out a bit wide and pointing the toes out too much - this does help you get lower but also forces your knees to rotate in and the weight onto the inside of your foot. My advice is don't worry about going ass to ankles or anything for now, just work on getting a good squat going to parallel with good balance and no rounding of the spine.

Stretch your glutes, piriformis, calves and hip flexors out before you squat, too, you should find the standard stretches fairly easily on the interweb.

flogen

brianthebard wrote: »

First question would be what shoes are you wearing?

Something like these - purchased for general gym/exercise use with nothing particular in mind, so won't be surprised if you tell me they're terrible for what I'm looking to do

Did you do any ankle flexibility stuff beforehand?

Nothing at all, to be honest - what kind of stuff would you recommend?

Where you bending forward a bit as you squatted down, its hard/impossible to know without the video but that could've shifted the weight to the inside/ball of your foot as you lowered, especially in runners.

I would have been conscious of keeping my spine aligned but would probably have been leaning forward, as opposed to bending forward (if you get me). Perhaps I was leaning forward too much but as my balance kept going backwards rather than forwards I felt it necessary to lean forward to counteract this.

wasabi wrote: »

This might help
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1856085&cr

as might this:
http://www.davedraper.com/blog/2006/11/04/what-are-goblet-squats-goblet-squat-instruction/

and this:
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_AirSquats.wmv

Many thanks!

Sounds like you might be bringing the feet out a bit wide and pointing the toes out too much - this does help you get lower but also forces your knees to rotate in and the weight onto the inside of your foot. My advice is don't worry about going ass to ankles or anything for now, just work on getting a good squat going to parallel with good balance and no rounding of the spine.

I think so - had a very hard time keeping my knees from going inwards, or even just to keep them tracking my feet. Will try a narrower stance and work from there.

As for going ass to ankles, wasn't even attempting that - was just trying to get past parallel; I guess getting parallel with a decent stance should be my first goal, though!

Stretch your glutes, piriformis, calves and hip flexors out before you squat, too, you should find the standard stretches fairly easily on the interweb.

Will do a bit of searching now, so.

Thanks.

brianthebard

flogen wrote: »

Something like these - purchased for general gym/exercise use with nothing particular in mind, so won't be surprised if you tell me they're terrible for what I'm looking to do



Nothing at all, to be honest - what kind of stuff would you recommend?



I would have been conscious of keeping my spine aligned but would probably have been leaning forward, as opposed to bending forward (if you get me). Perhaps I was leaning forward too much but as my balance kept going backwards rather than forwards I felt it necessary to lean forward to counteract this.

Runners suck for squatting imo, the spongy soles compress and go all over the place, they raise your heels up, they just generally suck. Try squatting in flat soled shoes if you have some, that alone should make a big difference. Then try wasabi's goblet squats and the other stuff she posted and you should be sorted.

rubadub

brianthebard wrote: »

Try squatting in flat soled shoes if you have some, that alone should make a big difference. Then try wasabi's goblet squats and the other stuff she posted and you should be sorted.

You can get old style converse which are flat, Dunnes were doing cheap imitations for around €10 a while back, not sure if they still have them.

Goblet squats are great, sort of force you into better form.

Colm_OReilly

rubadub,

The only issue I see with goblet squats is that they're front squats, and mightn't fix the issues with back squatting.

flogen,

Again, without video it's hard to see but I'd hazard a guess that you're not pulling yourself into the squat. Imagine someone has grabbed you by the waistline of your shorts and is pulling you backwards. Pushing your hips back while driving your knees out is how you should be descending into the back squat.

I understand this does FA is you've flexibility issues, but we may as well work on proper form while we're at it anyway.

This is very difficult to describe in type but there's no real problem with "bending" forward during the squat, as the squat is the closing and openign of the hip angle under weight. Just remember to keep your chest up (think superhero chest, I've found it's a great cue) and your weight on your heels.

Again, without video, all this advice could be meaningless :P

wasabi

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

rubadub,
The only issue I see with goblet squats is that they're front squats, and mightn't fix the issues with back squatting.

The weight is held at your front alright but the actual form isn't really much like a barbell front squat. The torso isn't as erect because you're not pushing your elbows high, and you do push your hips back like a back squat. I used to use these a lot while first learning to back squat. Worked for me. Holding the weight at the front helps people get the movement without that feeling of falling backwards, I think.

BossArky

flogen wrote: »

Firstly, SS recommends shoulder-width heels with toes at a 30 degree angle or so... I found that extremely difficult to do as I kept losing balance once I got near parallel - is this just something I need to keep doing or is it OK to push my toes wider?

When I squat without a bar, or with just the 20kg oly bar, I have a tendency to fall backwards every set or so. This forces me to take a step backwards with one foot.

However, once I've got more than 20kg on my back this isn't a problem.

kevpants

BossArky wrote: »

When I squat without a bar, or with just the 20kg oly bar, I have a tendency to fall backwards every set or so. This forces me to take a step backwards with one foot.

However, once I've got more than 20kg on my back this isn't a problem.

+1

It is important to get your form right before you push yourself but too little weight and you'll be unstable. If I squat anything below 50kg I'm all over the shop and fall back alot just as BossArky said.

flogen

BossArky wrote: »

When I squat without a bar, or with just the 20kg oly bar, I have a tendency to fall backwards every set or so. This forces me to take a step backwards with one foot.

However, once I've got more than 20kg on my back this isn't a problem.

A bit more weightless practice today and I feel like I'm getting somewhere... but will probably need to add weight in order to get a balance going on (makes sense to me that if I'm losing my balance backwards I should counter-act with a weight at the front like in a Goblet squat).

I suppose the same applies for a barbell squat - at least it will (or should) be adding weight to my centre of gravity.

spiral

lads why would the lack of weight make any difference .
You should have perfect form with just a bar and aim to keep as close to that as possible whilst increasing the weight.
you hardly started squatting 50kg in the begining ?

kevpants

Well if you took a side on picture of someone at the the bottom of a squat with just a broom handle or something on their back and then drew a line straight up from their heels perpendicular to the ground, where would all the weight be. Sticking out the back is where. Maybe that's a bad way of describing it but without enough resistance on my back I'd have to concentrate on not rolling back onto my ar5e.

davyjose

FTR, tight hamstrings/hips will play havoc with your squat technique. I sorted some of my flexibility issues out and my form improved massively.
I would also advise developing core strength too. A weak core can make it very difficult to hold good form, when starting out.

Roper

kevpants wrote: »

Well if you took a side on picture of someone at the the bottom of a squat with just a broom handle or something on their back and then drew a line straight up from their heels perpendicular to the ground, where would all the weight be. Sticking out the back is where. Maybe that's a bad way of describing it but without enough resistance on my back I'd have to concentrate on not rolling back onto my ar5e.

I don't know if I'me reading this right but are you saying that the weight should be sort of behind your heels? The weight should be over your mid foot and the bar should travel up and down in a line perpendicular to the mid foot. Again, maybe I'm misinterpreting your post there so feel free to disregard that.

If someone was having balance trouble with a broom handle then I wouldn't put any weight on their back until that problem was sorted. If you can't balance in your squat unweighted, then you are going to compensate with a movement that is outside of the proper anatomical plane of motion for the squat. Those compensations lead to injury.

Flogen chances are you're not suffering from a balance issue but a flexibility issue. You may not be able to get deep enough for any number of reasons but common ones are ankle, hip flexor, calf and lower back. Have someone watch your form. Where do you live there might be someone on here nearby.

kevpants

Roper wrote: »

I don't know if I'me reading this right but are you saying that the weight should be sort of behind your heels? The weight should be over your mid foot and the bar should travel up and down in a line perpendicular to the mid foot. Again, maybe I'm misinterpreting your post there so feel free to disregard that.

No not saying the weight should be back.

I dunno any of the mechanics of it at all TBH. All I know is on my initial warm ups sets with f-all weight my balance is harder to maintain.

I don't know if it's down to the weight making my centre of gravity easier to maintain because it's over my mid-foot as you said or possibly because I have a fat arse.

wasabi

kevpants wrote: »

No not saying the weight should be back.

I dunno any of the mechanics of it at all TBH. All I know is on my initial warm ups sets with f-all weight my balance is harder to maintain.

I don't know if it's down to the weight making my centre of gravity easier to maintain because it's over my mid-foot as you said or possibly because I have a fat arse.

More like flexibility issues - tight hip flexors, glutes and calves probably. Have a read of the third world squat article I posted above, might help.

(I see Barry got there first actually - what he said).

BossArky

Without bar or weight:
The reason I topple backwards without weight every so often is because I'm trying to "sit back into it". If I sit back too far then I have nothing to compensate with on my shoulders.

With bar + weight:

With bar + weight on my shoulders I can "sit back" and then bend foward from the hips / lean over a bit with straight back if I feel I'm going to fall backwards.


... or

maybe my squat is just cr@p :eek::o