All our motorways should be built!

johnbk

I'm currently watching Roadbridge building the new M9 and theyre making the whole process look easy. We have been living a country that since its foundation has had crap roads, stifling regional investment and contributing to dreadfull accidents.

Now we have the NRA, the regional roads design offices and most importantly, the construction companies with expertise that takes years to build-up. We are only now in a position where value for money is likely, so the building must continue even if it means borrowing.

SeanW

Hammer, Nail and Head.

BluntGuy

I totally agree with the OP.

They need to be built for numerous reasons...

1huge1

Not if it means having a toll on every road which seems to be the case with a lot of new roads.

BluntGuy

1huge1 wrote: »

Not if it means having a toll on every road which seems to be the case with a lot of new roads.

That is a definate downside... and having two tolls on each inter-urban route does seem a bit of a p*ss-take when we've been waiting ages for good roads.

But (and I'm sorry if I sound like the 'ah sure 'twill do'-type), having a good quality, tolled alternative route is much better than being forced to drive on a crappy, long-winded route which is going to sap more petrol anyway...

Gonzo

also arent most motorways/autbahns/autopistas/autovia's in europe tolled anyway, I dont see the big problem in us having tolls on our roads once there proper motorways, as said above its way better than being made drive on dangerous cart-tracks like we've always been doing up till now, At least now these roads are much safer and will leed to improved journey times and safer conditions leading to less road deaths and injurys.

BluntGuy

Gonzo wrote: »

also arent most motorways/autbahns/autopistas/autovia's in europe tolled anyway, I dont see the big problem in us having tolls on our roads once there proper motorways, as said above its way better than being made drive on dangerous cart-tracks like we've always been doing up till now, At least now these roads are much safer and will leed to improved journey times and safer conditions leading to less road deaths and injurys.

You're right. France (and other European countries) do have wide networks of toll roads. But many alternative routes are good S2 standard road. What do we have in comparison? Good quality motorways and few decent national primary sections, but very few good quality alternatives.

D'Peoples Voice

BluntGuy wrote: »

You're right. France (and other European countries) do have wide networks of toll roads. But many alternative routes are good S2 standard road. What do we have in comparison? Good quality motorways and few decent national primary sections, but very few good quality alternatives.

that wasn't my experience in the South West of France,
the non-tolled roads were usually single lane carriageways,
Brittany, in the Northwest, was an exception though;)

I'm all for toll roads if it means they are designed/maintained to a high standard,
and let the government use their resources to develop a public transport system that is at least half-decent!
Take Cork County Council,

Its role also involves the planning, design and development of 500km of national roads and 12,000Km of non-national roads.

Now Muntiply that for 26 counties(obviously not all of them are as big as Cork) but it gives you an idea of how mad it is to expect the government to maintain all our roads AND invest in public transport!

Lennoxschips

Yes, let's built motorways to every village in the country. We can use ground up medical cards for the road foundations.

Lennoxschips

BluntGuy wrote: »

What do we have in comparison? Good quality motorways and few decent national primary sections, but very few good quality alternatives.

Aren't all our motorways built right next to the old N-roads? They're as good as the French N-roads... (if not better, considering that much of the N8 was heavily upgraded in the 1990s)

And anyway, why do we need alternative roads? What for?

corktina

local traffic, tractors, L drivers (still loads of them driving round unaccompanied btw)...its a safety issue...

BluntGuy

corktina wrote: »

local traffic, tractors, L drivers (still loads of them driving round unaccompanied btw)...its a safety issue...

Yes.

Even when the M20 (eventually) gets built, the old N20 will still need some upgrading. It's way too dangerous even for local traffic in stretches.

And Lennoxchips, I know that most of our motorway network parallels the old national primary route network. What I mean by a few decent primary stretches are segments of the N24, N25 etc.

I agree though that the R639 (the old N8) is of a very good quality for regional route (bar a few places), and does offer a decent alternative to the M8 for local traffic.

SeanW

Moped riders, cyclists, L-Drivers (accompanied or otherwise), toll dodgers and if some brainless nanny statists in Kildare Street get their way, R Plate drivers (which would be everyone who has taken out a 1st driving license in the past two years) all need an alternative route.

Lennoxschips

I don't think the Irish road network should be designed around the stupidity of the Irish driving testing system.

When I was an L-driver in Holland I drove on the motorway. Accompanied exclusively by a trained and certified driving instructor.

As for mopeds and cyclists, I don't think they need N-quality inter-city routes, nor do I think they are looking for them. I think they'd be more impressed with dedicated cycle lanes...

BluntGuy

Yes, the 'motorway issue' when it comes to driving tests needs to be sorted out.

No point having nice, shiny new roads when there'll be a bunch of fools who don't know how to use them all over the place.

serfboard

1huge1 wrote: »

Not if it means having a toll on every road which seems to be the case with a lot of new roads.

Well let's see. From Dublin to:

Cork and Galway 2,
Sligo 1,
Limerick 1 (I don't count the Shannon Tunnel as it's after the city)

and

the road to where the former Minister of Transport is from

Waterford 0. (Again I don't count the new bypass as the toll is after the city).

I wouldn't be surprised if they installed additional tolls on the network (Carlow Bypass, Knocktopher-Waterford and Nenagh-Limerick) to get a bit of cash in.

spacetweek

serfboard wrote: »

Limerick 1
...
(Carlow Bypass, Knocktopher-Waterford and Nenagh-Limerick) ...

Limerick 2.
There's already one on Nenagh-Limerick.

corktina

Whats the problem with paying tolls?

If you paid to build the road, you wouldnt be paying a toll, in the case of the toll roads, they were built with private capital rather than your tax-euros so you have to pay to use them...you would nt expect to get the ferry to Wales for nought would you? (for example)

In any case its fairer to have toll-roads as the user pays rather than everyone , many of whom will never use them.

Stark

Trucks need to pay to use them and that cost gets passed to the consumer. Also, most of our toll roads tend to double up as bypasses for towns on route meaning it's in the townspeople's interest for people to use the tolled road.

nordydan

spacetweek wrote: »

Limerick 2.
There's already one on Nenagh-Limerick.

I though this was scrapped??

corktina

Stark wrote: »

Trucks need to pay to use them and that cost gets passed to the consumer. Also, most of our toll roads tend to double up as bypasses for towns on route meaning it's in the townspeople's interest for people to use the tolled road.

i dont understand your comment about the trucks....the Consumer of the products is still "using" the toll road and paying his share...

1huge1

Are you saying there is goiong to be a toll on the new limerick to nenagh road? seems very strange as there going to have a toll further up the road at portlaois

Chris_533976

AFAIK theres no toll on Nenagh to Limerick. I know they were talking about one, but I dont think it happened due probably to the Shannon tunnel toll.

cjpm

Definetly no toll on Limerick to Nenagh and on Nenagh to Castletown (Laois)

I think there is a toll on the next section though, somewhere in Laois.

veryangryman

Toll on Castletown to Nenagh section AFAIK. Toll to the North of the new M7/M8 junction (just to get the Cork goers cash aswell)

I think everyone from the major cities will still have 2 regular tolls to pay, assuming a fairly regular commute and the odd journy around the cities bypass

Galway - 2 (Kilcock and Ballinasloe)
Limerick - 2 (m7/m8 junction and Shannon tunnel)
Cork - 2 (m7/m8 junction and fermoy)
Sligo/Waterford - 1 each but their hardly buzzing metropolitan areas

On a slightly off topic note, do you think that the main reason that prices are so expensive in bigger cities to keep the population in them down. I always feel that <financial metaphor> Dublin is like a guy belching into your face and the further you are from it, the less of it you suffer </financial metaphor>

Stark

cjpm wrote: »

Definetly no toll on Limerick to Nenagh and on Nenagh to Castletown (Laois)

I think there is a toll on the next section though, somewhere in Laois.

Yeah the M7 Portaloise-Castletown section will have a toll (the toll will be on the section shared with the M8 Portaloise-Cullahill).

spacetweek

cjpm wrote: »

Definetly no toll on Limerick to Nenagh and on Nenagh to Castletown (Laois)

I think there is a toll on the next section though, somewhere in Laois.

Thanks for pointing this out - I hadn't noticed.

Hotblack Desiato

corktina wrote: »

Whats the problem with paying tolls?

The very high level of motoring taxes we already pay. VRT, VAT, Excise, road tax... Taxes on top of taxes, taxes on safety equipment that saves lives.
Also the example of the West-Link where the tolls made huge private profits which were not invested in roads, in public transport or for the public good in any way. Instead we got ripped off all over again to buy the damn bridge out, and the tolls are even higher now.

In France there is no VRT and no road tax. Petrol is a bit dearer than here, but unless you drive a big kilometre-age you will be quids in.

Here, it would be a lot more efficient, cheaper to collect, and harder to evade if we just put all motoring tax on fuel, polluter pays and all that, but the rural lobby wouldn't have it, so yet another good idea will never happen.

corktina

but the point is, we didnt have to pay to BUILD the PPP roads.....you cant have it both ways....

murphaph

corktina wrote: »

but the point is, we didnt have to pay to BUILD the PPP roads.....you cant have it both ways....

....but we bought the land for the private operator to build on. The state (you and I) buy the land, then it is vested with the concessionaire for 30/40 years who then fleece the users of the road.

I am against tolling because it ends up costing the taxpayer more. It may not cost every individual taxpayer more, but on average it does. The easiest way to enforce the polluter pays principle is to tax the balls out of fuel an scrap al other motor taxes. It is so elegant. It would be deeply unpopular in rural parts where people need to drive to buy a pint of milk-so it won't happen.

Business users could be given special marked fuel to keep the costs down for them.

road_high

veryangryman wrote: »

Sligo/Waterford - 1 each but their hardly buzzing metropolitan areas

And Cork, Limerick and Galway are or something :rolleyes:
Sligo is quite a bit smaller than Watertford, is there even 20,000 up there . Sure Kilkenny and Carlow (both also on the same road to Waterford I might add) are pushing 25,000 people each, bigger than Sligo.

serfboard

ninja900 wrote: »

Here, it would be a lot more efficient, cheaper to collect, and harder to evade if we just put all motoring tax on fuel, polluter pays and all that, but the rural lobby wouldn't have it, so yet another good idea will never happen.

You're right - it won't happen for that reason. Funny thing is though, when the price of petrol goes up people still have to pay more anyway.

The government also gets a nice little tax take from all the Northerners getting their petrol in the South. Since so many Southerners are going North for everything else, I can see this as another reason why it won't be implemented.

That, and the fact that the PPP contracts are in place now, and won't be re-written.

Typewriter

mfitzy wrote: »

And Cork, Limerick and Galway are or something :rolleyes:

Yes.

corktina

murphaph wrote: »

....but we bought the land for the private operator to build on. The state (you and I) buy the land, then it is vested with the concessionaire for 30/40 years who then fleece the users of the road.

I am against tolling because it ends up costing the taxpayer more. It may not cost every individual taxpayer more, but on average it does. The easiest way to enforce the polluter pays principle is to tax the balls out of fuel an scrap al other motor taxes. It is so elegant. It would be deeply unpopular in rural parts where people need to drive to buy a pint of milk-so it won't happen.

Business users could be given special marked fuel to keep the costs down for them.

i think its only right that thosae USING the roads should pay for them..why should I pay for a road I more or less never will use?

mysterious

mfitzy wrote: »

And Cork, Limerick and Galway are or something :rolleyes:
Sligo is quite a bit smaller than Watertford, is there even 20,000 up there . Sure Kilkenny and Carlow (both also on the same road to Waterford I might add) are pushing 25,000 people each, bigger than Sligo.

Sligo has 21,000
Carlow has 20,000
Kilkenny is probably closer to 25,000.


But Mfitzy you really need to get over the whole notion of Waterford getting glorified motorways for the city its size. In normal terms and out in the real world, a city of 45,000 would not get a direct motorway to a real size city.


In fact Galway or Limerick are even lucky.

mysterious

veryangryman wrote: »

Toll on Castletown to Nenagh section AFAIK. Toll to the North of the new M7/M8 junction (just to get the Cork goers cash aswell)

I think everyone from the major cities will still have 2 regular tolls to pay, assuming a fairly regular commute and the odd journy around the cities bypass

Galway - 2 (Kilcock and Ballinasloe)
Limerick - 2 (m7/m8 junction and Shannon tunnel)
Cork - 2 (m7/m8 junction and fermoy)
Sligo/Waterford - 1 each but their hardly buzzing metropolitan areas

On a slightly off topic note, do you think that the main reason that prices are so expensive in bigger cities to keep the population in them down. I always feel that <financial metaphor> Dublin is like a guy belching into your face and the further you are from it, the less of it you suffer </financial metaphor>

A toll built on the Castletown Scheme have you looked at the map and seen how close this is to the M7/M8 toll. The Limerick Dublin route is shorter than either Cork or Galway and Limerick will already have a toll at the Shannon Tunnell leading to the M7 anyway, and pretty much 50% of the road users will continue on towards the M7 anyway...... A large percentage of the N7 traffic comes from the N21 and N18 on route to Dublin.

What are you saying, put a toll there at Castletown, if you so you, shouldn't be on this forum!

mysterious

Chris_533976 wrote: »

AFAIK theres no toll on Nenagh to Limerick. I know they were talking about one, but I dont think it happened due probably to the Shannon tunnel toll.

Before the Inter urban were first proposed in 1999.

Early 1998, the local politicians and the NRA were talking about Irelands first motorway outside of Leinster for real. They were plans already drawn up and put on the Nenagh Guardian at the time. The road was well blue and it was going to be tolled.

Due to a high local traffic usage on this stretch of road tolls wouldn't really work. The Nenagh bypass being added which was not going to be motorway standard anyway and limited local accesses for farmers to access their land at either side of the M7 and Finally the whole interurbans was mooted in 1999, it was then deemed "HQDC"

It was even way back as 1999 they had signage up, saying "no toll for M7"

Suddenly the CPO was published in 2001 and there was no mention of "M7" or toll. In fact I don't think it was even brought up or pointed out by the Nra at all.

mysterious

Just passing the Nenagh Castletown scheme yesterday, at moneygall on the existing N7. They are really flying this section. Most of the earth moving and top load is done and is ready to set the bridge up for the M7 to flyover the N7 at Moneygall.

It really looks like they want the M7 and M8 to open in double time, as the remaining section of M7 at Portlaoise is really moving slowy considering it started in xmas 06 and it still won't be finished till 2010. The Nenagh Castletown hoped to be completed in early 2010:eek:, and it only started in mid 2008!!

invincibleirish

mysterious wrote: »

Sligo has 21,000
Carlow has 20,000
Kilkenny is probably closer to 25,000.


But Mfitzy you really need to get over the whole notion of Waterford getting glorified motorways for the city its size. In normal terms and out in the real world, a city of 45,000 would not get a direct motorway to a real size city.

Not every town of 45k has a Minister like Martin Cullen doing his bit for Waterford at the ministerial table. The M9 should be renamed the Martin Cullen Expressway. The fact that there isnt a toll on the M9 while all the other interurbans have at least one tells us all we need to know about what is wrong with politics and transport policy in this country.

Cool Mo D

The reason that the N9 doesn't have a toll is also probably that there wouldn't be enough traffic on it to make it profitable for the operator! And Sligo, Kilkenny, and Carlow are all small towns. Ennis, no metropolis itself, is bigger than any of them.

SeanW

Another thing about Sligo is that the motorway to Sligo will have one toll, despite the motorway only running to Kinnegad.

daveharnett

corktina wrote: »

i think its only right that thosae USING the roads should pay for them..why should I pay for a road I more or less never will use?

Why should I pay for your hospital bed?

That's how government works. Your money goes into a big pot which is used to make the country better for everyone.

Lennoxschips

A hospital is an essential service.

Some of the roads being suggested are far from essential.

murphaph

Lennoxschips wrote: »

A hospital is an essential service.

Some of the roads being suggested are far from essential.

Hospitals are essential
Roads are essential
Not all hospitals are essential
Not all roads are essential

Lennoxschips

What is and what isn't essential is a matter of opinion.

People understand that their tax money goes into a big pot which the government spends. Some people look at the shortage of beds in the health service, lack of clean drinking water, school places, substandard public transport, non-existant mental services, etc., etc., and can't understand how white elephant motorways can get funding.

I tend to agree that if people want their white elephant motorways then the end user should pay.

road_high

mysterious wrote: »

Sligo has 21,000
Carlow has 20,000
Kilkenny is probably closer to 25,000.


But Mfitzy you really need to get over the whole notion of Waterford getting glorified motorways for the city its size. In normal terms and out in the real world, a city of 45,000 would not get a direct motorway to a real size city.


In fact Galway or Limerick are even lucky.

Sligo is smaller than Carlow; http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1770

Whereas Sligos population actually DECREASED, Carlow,KK and Waterford grow by 12.1%, 7% and 5% respectively. The south east is a faster growing region and this road will open it up to the potential it has been so deprived of over the years.

The N4 to Sligo is a far superior road to the current N9/10 I might add.

Now those who want to rip apart what I'm saying go right ahead, the road is half built at this stage anyhow.

road_high

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The reason that the N9 doesn't have a toll is also probably that there wouldn't be enough traffic on it to make it profitable for the operator! And Sligo, Kilkenny, and Carlow are all small towns. Ennis, no metropolis itself, is bigger than any of them.

Ever so slightly . Watch KK and Carlow power ahead when we get the infrastructure. About time the south east got something instead of being screwed over time and time again. If only we could get the same handouts and agencies like "Shannon Development" the so called "poor" western counties get/got over the years.

I would safely hazard a guess that traffic volumes on the n9/10 at least from Kilkenny to Kilcvullen would compare with any section of the comparable N7/6/8. Drive part of it daily and it's one car after the next hgence little oppurtunity to over take anything

mysterious

mfitzy wrote: »

Sligo is smaller than Carlow; http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1770

Whereas Sligos population actually DECREASED, Carlow,KK and Waterford grow by 12.1%, 7% and 5% respectively. The south east is a faster growing region and this road will open it up to the potential it has been so deprived of over the years.

The N4 to Sligo is a far superior road to the current N9/10 I might add.

Now those who want to rip apart what I'm saying go right ahead, the road is half built at this stage anyhow.

Anything else?


Just before you do jump the hurdles,

I just want to say, If Waterford had 3,000 people, you will still come up with some nonsense that it still needs a glorified motorway...

Think this should close it up.

road_high

mysterious wrote: »

Anything else?


Just before you do jump the hurdles,

I just want to say, If Waterford had 3,000 people, you will still come up with some nonsense that it still needs a glorified motorway...

Think this should close it up.

No thats actually a stupid slightly childish response. Your dismissive, frankly "know all" attidude says it all really.
Waterford doesn't have just 3,000 people so that (again) dismissive remark/point (whatever) is completely irrelevant. Easy known you don't have to endure the woeful stanadard of the current N9/10 on a regular basis is all I'll say...

invincibleirish

mfitzy wrote: »

Ever so slightly . Watch KK and Carlow power ahead when we get the infrastructure. About time the south east got something instead of being screwed over time and time again. If only we could get the same handouts and agencies like "Shannon Development" the so called "poor" western counties get/got over the years.

Better idea, instead of wishing to ape the failed policies of building over spec and under used white elephant infrastructure in the name of 'regional development' or other such nonsense how about concentrating on spending where needed.

Bards

I-Irish & Mysterious, we have heard your failed arguments before. 12% of the population of this state live & work in the S.E and pay taxes, and deserve the same standard of living and access to services as the rest of the country. The S.E is not some little backwater with sparsley populated population centres and no industry.

Waterford Crystal alone (through it's workers getting fleeced on taxes) for years supported this state and the West when Ireland inc had nothing. Galway was no more than a little town in the 60's, but massive Government subvention and support grew it to what it is today.

Why should the same not happen now to the S.E