HELP!! Battery Flat-Jump Start Failed?

Toots

Well it all started when I stupidly left the inside light on in my car (Rover 45) on Thursday afternoon. I wasn't out at all in it yesterday, and at about 10 yesterday night a neighbour rang to say the inside light was on. Went down to turn it off, and of course the bloody battery was dead.

This afternoon, my Dad came up with jump leads to start my car. Before we hooked them up, I checked in my manual and there's a little window thing on my battery, which is green if it's charged, black if it's flat, and yellow or cream if the battery is completely dead. It said that if it was yellow or cream not to attempt to jump or charge the battery, and you have to get a new one. The window on mine is black, so we connected the leads per instructions in the kit and in my manual (positive my car to positive his car - negative his car to earthing point thing on my car), started Dad's car, let it run for a few mins and then tried to start my car. Nothing happened. We tried again and again, still nothing.

My OH came along then and said that maybe we should try connecting the negative cable to the negative battery point in my car, so we went to do that but as soon as the little clamp thing went near the battery, sparks came out and my alarm went totally haywire, it wouldn't stop so I ended up just taking out the fuse for the alarm to shut it off. Now it expressly stated in both sets of instructions NOT to connect the negative cable to the negative point on the flat battery, so we decided not to try it again in case it damages the car or something.

So now basically I'm stumped, the last time I jumped a car, it was totally straight forward, and we were all set in 5 mins. I can't understand what may have gone wrong this time? Is it possible that although the little window thing in my battery just says it's flat, that the battery's actually just gone and I need a new one? Can anyone suggest anything? I'm dreadful with cars, so I'm afraid to try anything else myself in case I do some damage!

EDIT: Forgot to add my car is an '04, mkII. AFAIK, that's still the original battery inside, in case that makes any difference.

joeperry

Hi,Ive always prefered the push start method,you know push it up the road in 2nd gear with ignition on then let the clutch out. Car has to be manual off course.

*Kol*

Take the battery out and charge it. See how you get on with that. If that doesn`t work you may need a new battery.

MarkR

The negative wire on the receiver end of the car is normally for grounding. I've done it a dozen times using the negative pole of the battery, rather then then the other suggested method of attaching it to a metal part of the car for grounding.

When you tried to ground it to the battery, it actually worked. The battery which had been flat sent power to the alarm. The alarm noted that the doors were open when it thought they should be closed, and went off as it should.

Try again, same as last time connecting + to + of battery, and - to - of battery. Have donor car already started, attached receiving car (close car doors first, or at least have alarm fob handy) and give it a few minutes before you try to start it.

Toots

OK, I'll give that a go! My alarm fob didn't work turning off the car (I assume cos the battery was flat) so I'll leave the fuse out until I get it working again just in case! Don't want to annoy the neighbours! Do I have the donor car started before I start connecting things??

Wertz

On a really depleted battery I've found that revving the donor car up to about 2500-3K rpm (whilst in neutral of course) sends a bit more power to the dead battery especially at the point of turnover. Shouldn't have to do this for much longer than a minute...

xt40

Wertz wrote: »

On a really depleted battery I've found that revving the donor car up to about 2500-3K rpm (whilst in neutral of course) sends a bit more power to the dead battery especially at the point of turnover. Shouldn't have to do this for much longer than a minute...

no ,no no.
the reason the op's car didnt start is due to crappy jump leads.
99% of jump leads are just not fit for purpose.
if you look at them you will see that the typical 10mm cable is 8mm plastic with just a couple of strands of copper in the middle.
proper leads will allow you to start a dead vehicle without running the engine on the good car. in fact doing so is a very bad idea as the surge that happens when the dead cars alternator starts outputting juice can blow the expensive ecu's of either car.
as for revving to output a bit more juice, thats also wrong. alternators put out the same voltage regardless of how fast an engine is running. if they didnt, your lights would be getting brighter or dimmer as you speed up,slow down.
the leads sold for trucks are the best. my set cost 70€ which i begrudged paying at the time. in hindsight however, as they actually work, i now think they were worth it.

Toots

Cheers for all the replies guys! We tried jumping again, with no success, which could be down to either crappy leads or my battery being beyond repair. I'd attempt a push start, only I live in the dublin mountains and unfortunately the way my car is parked means there's no way of rolling it unless I hit off my neighbour So we're gonna take the battery out and try and charge it up inside overnight. Simple enough, or so you'd think, only there's one nut holding the thing in that simply refuses to budge. (I think my suspicion that this is the original battery is now confirmed). My poor OH has cut his hands to ribbons trying to get it out. :( Has this ever happened to anyone else?

I just rang my roadside assist from my insurance, and because the car is at my house as opposed to on the side of the road, they'll come out but they'll charge me (minimum €100) so I really don't want to go down that road unless I can really avoid it.

T-Maxx

Agreed. Forget the €20 sets they sell at Halfords, Argos, Atlantic, etc.

T-Maxx

Even if your battery is completely shot, your engine will still start 'cause it's getting power from the donor battery.

Jumpy

Toots85 wrote: »

Cheers for all the replies guys! We tried jumping again, with no success, which could be down to either crappy leads or my battery being beyond repair. I'd attempt a push start, only I live in the dublin mountains and unfortunately the way my car is parked means there's no way of rolling it unless I hit off my neighbour So we're gonna take the battery out and try and charge it up inside overnight. Simple enough, or so you'd think, only there's one nut holding the thing in that simply refuses to budge. (I think my suspicion that this is the original battery is now confirmed). My poor OH has cut his hands to ribbons trying to get it out. :( Has this ever happened to anyone else?

I just rang my roadside assist from my insurance, and because the car is at my house as opposed to on the side of the road, they'll come out but they'll charge me (minimum €100) so I really don't want to go down that road unless I can really avoid it.

Tow it to the side of the road? Too late now though.

WD40 is your friend for stuck bolts. Spray it on, leave an hour and go at it then, use a spanner that fits the bolt perfectly or you will ruin it.

L-M

Wait wait wait, if the battery is that flat, and your key fob isn't working, the car won't turn off the immobiliser therefore the car won't start. Hook it up again, open the car with the fob, then start it.

Jumpy

Have my mind on older cars. limerick-man may have it right.

L-M

Jumpy wrote: »

Have my mind on older cars. limerick-man may have it right.

Lol, i think we posted at the same time, i wasn't mouthing at you or anything:D

Wertz

xt40 wrote: »

no ,no no.
the reason the op's car didnt start is due to crappy jump leads.
99% of jump leads are just not fit for purpose.
if you look at them you will see that the typical 10mm cable is 8mm plastic with just a couple of strands of copper in the middle.
proper leads will allow you to start a dead vehicle without running the engine on the good car. in fact doing so is a very bad idea as the surge that happens when the dead cars alternator starts outputting juice can blow the expensive ecu's of either car.
as for revving to output a bit more juice, thats also wrong. alternators put out the same voltage regardless of how fast an engine is running. if they didnt, your lights would be getting brighter or dimmer as you speed up,slow down.
the leads sold for trucks are the best. my set cost 70€ which i begrudged paying at the time. in hindsight however, as they actually work, i now think they were worth it.

Okay, I stand corrected....this is how I used get our old 205 started (and how I always saw people doing it when I was younger), including the cheapo jumpleads. Maybe in my case the battery wasn't completely dead. When trying to turn over, I'd always noticed that gunning the engine a little would give the extra oomph to turnover the dead car. The donor car was a 106 and never suffered for it. The few times I suffered battery problems in the 106 I just used one of those yellow recharger packs. No battery problems with current car, but appreciate the advice on the correct way to do it with modern cars and sensitive electrics. Post edited.

xt40

up to the 60's cars had dynamos instead of alternators. thats where the revving thing originated.

Toots

Yup, next time I'm gonna tow it up to the local pub and call from there

Well we finally got it out, the OH's dad brought round some socket wrenches, and lots of WD40, eventually it's out! So now tis charging away, hopefully all will be well tomorrow morning. If not then it's off to Halfords I go for a new one. Cheers for all the help guys, I really appreciate it!

Esel

MarkR wrote: »

The negative wire on the receiver end of the car is normally for grounding. I've done it a dozen times using the negative pole of the battery, rather then then the other suggested method of attaching it to a metal part of the car for grounding.

When you tried to ground it to the battery, it actually worked. The battery which had been flat sent power to the alarm. The alarm noted that the doors were open when it thought they should be closed, and went off as it should.

Try again, same as last time connecting + to + of battery, and - to - of battery. Have donor car already started, attached receiving car (close car doors first, or at least have alarm fob handy) and give it a few minutes before you try to start it.

We don't care how you do it, or how often you've done it that way - because it's the wrong way, and is dangerous!

Toots85 wrote: »

My poor OH has cut his hands to ribbons trying to get it out.

Karma, because he told you to connect to the negative terminal of the dead battery!

Toots

esel wrote: »

We don't care how you do it, or how often you've done it that way - because it's the wrong way, and is dangerous!

Karma, because he told you to connect to the negative terminal of the dead battery!

ROFL!!! I'm not going to tell him that tho! He thought you did it like that from seeing his parents jump cars in the early 80s (I think on the old cars this was the way you did it!) I'm just praying it charges up ok overnight, I really don't wanna spend €100 on a new battery

Fishtits

The reason it is stated that the negative lead of a jump set should be connected to a chassis point on the receiving vehicle is that its the final connection - ie the connection that is most likely to spark - and you don't want sparks near a battery. The fact that the receiving battery is flat should mean that there is a very low chance of an explosion but its better to be safe

Anyone who has witnessed a battery explode will agree with this.

As for jump leads, most of the cheapo sets on sale are lightweight in terms of conductor cross sectional area, but the biggest problem is the crimped joints between the clamps and the cable. Soldered joints are the only enduring solution for 12V connectors, including a bridge accross the jaws. Proper jump leads cost hundreds but they last forever.

L-M

What actually happened in the end with this?