Mass Fraud Fears In US Election

yaynay

Found this article on Sky News this morning about fraud fears is the US election:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/US-officials-may-have-uncoverd-attempted-voter-fraud-less-than-a-month-before-US-Election/Article/200810215116398?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15116398_US_officials_may_have_uncoverd_attempted_voter_fraud_less_than_a_month_before_US_Election

US election officials believe they have uncovered massive attempted voter fraud less than a month before the country goes to the polls to choose its new president.
Eleven separate investigations have now been launched into a voter registration group called the Association of Community Organisations for Reform – or Acorn.
The authorities believe they may have duplicated voter forms, employed convicts to register people and even stolen the names of the American football team the Dallas Cowboys in order to create fake voters.
The suspicions started when authorities in Las Vegas raided the organisation's offices, removing eight computer hard drives and several boxes of documents.
Acorn called the raid "a stunt that serves no useful purpose other than discredit our work".
They suggested the investigations into them were politically motivated.
But the concerns about dodgy election papers started to spread to other states.
Authorities in Indiana said they had concerns about roughly a thousand voters registered by the group there.
And Fox News reporters in the state of Missouri found 10 registration documents with the same name and signature.
Acorn has registered up to 1.3 million voters across the US so far.

They have offices in 41 states and Washington DC and focus on low income, African American and Latino communities.
They claim to be a politically neutral organisation but many commentators describe them as left wing.
And their workers have been found guilty of voter fraud in the past.
Last year five Acorn employees were sent to prison in Washington State after they went into the Seattle public library and used records to create 1,800 fake registration documents.
Before the raid in Las Vegas, lawyers acting for the state authorities tracked down former Acorn workers.
They found the group had employed 59 convicts from Nevada prisons who were supposed to be supervised and banned from using the phone or the internet.
One former prisoner named Jason Anderson described many of them as "lazy crack-heads who were not interested in working and just wanted the money".
He went on to say they were required to sign up 20 people to vote each day – but couldn't meet the quota – so they started to ask people in the street to fill out several applications.
In a bizarre twist to the tale, the lawyer who uncovered the evidence – Colin Haynes - is a British citizen and a former London policeman who worked as a detective for 11 years.
The Nevada Secretary of State’s department confirmed his past, telling Sky News: "Yep he's a Brit, he's one of our best."
In the town of Independence, Missouri, there was more evidence of dodgy election papers.
Fox news correspondent Eric Shawn obtained 10 voter registration papers filled out in the name of one person – Monica Ray.
He said: "She has three birthdays and four social security numbers."
And he warned the investigation would become even more serious, adding: "The voter registration forms here that are suspect, will be going to the FBI by the end of the week."
The concern over possible voter fraud may re-ignite the debate about voters being forced to bring identification to the polls.
Civil liberties groups have claimed in the past that such a rule would disadvantage poor and minority voters.
However, former Missouri Senator John Danforth offered a lighter side to the affair.
He explained that voter fraud had been a problem in his state before – but struggled to keep a straight face when he told how a dog had been signed up to vote in the presidential elections four years ago.

lostexpectation

could somebody clear this up for. does it say which party you registered with on american voter electoral roles?

Benedict XVI

yaynay wrote: »

Found this article on Sky News this morning about fraud fears is the US election:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/US-officials-may-have-uncoverd-attempted-voter-fraud-less-than-a-month-before-US-Election/Article/200810215116398?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15116398_US_officials_may_have_uncoverd_attempted_voter_fraud_less_than_a_month_before_US_Election

This is total poppycock, there is no way a 'left wing organization focusing on low income, African American and Latino communities' would ever get involved in something as nasty as voter fraud.

Voter fraud is only done by white, right, republican leaning groups.

Stop sending around such rubbish.

lostexpectation

well it depends how high up in goes into the parties, with the reoubs it went right to the top.

this sounds like bad business

yaynay

Benedict XVI wrote: »

This is total poppycock, there is no way a 'left wing organization focusing on low income, African American and Latino communities' would ever get involved in something as nasty as voter fraud.

Voter fraud is only done by white, right, republican leaning groups.

Stop sending around such rubbish.

To dismiss something as being rubbish because it contradicts an opinion that you have is pathetic. Making sweeping gentralistic statements such as 'Voter fraud is only done by white, right, republican leaning groups.' is ridiculous. The colour of a persons skin and the party they support does not make them immune to committing voters fraud. They are still human and sometimes people go to great lenghts to get the outcome they so badly want.

Benedict XVI

yaynay wrote: »

To dismiss something as being rubbish because it contradicts an opinion that you have is pathetic. Making sweeping gentralistic statements such as 'Voter fraud is only done by white, right, republican leaning groups.' is ridiculous. The colour of a persons skin and the party they support does not make them immune to committing voters fraud. They are still human and sometimes people go to great lenghts to get the outcome they so badly want.

I'm sorry I forgot to add :rolleyes: to the post.

Hobbes

lostexpectation wrote: »

could somebody clear this up for. does it say which party you registered with on american voter electoral roles?

I forget, but there is a way to get this information.

Voter fraud/suppression regardless of the side that does it is wrong.

jmayo

Sure it might even up the numbers
Afterall the Republicans did hatchet the probable Democrat voters off the register in Florida a while back.

Also nice to see Fox news are investigating the issue, it makes me sleep better. :rolleyes:

Did anyone ever hear the story about Lyndon B Johnson being brought to a graveyard to be introduced to some of his voters ?

yaynay

There was me thinking it was Law Enforcement who were investigating and it was Sky/Fox who reported the potential fruad :rolleyes:

BenjAii

It is bizarre that America, alone among modern western countries always seems to have problems on such a scale with voter fraud/manipulation.

The one that shocks me the most was Florida barring any convicted felon from voting. From a sociological point of view that is obviously people on low incomes. That they could get away with disenfranchising a whole swathe of the population like that is truly shocking.

But then it was only a few decades ago southern states were able to stop black people from voting full stop, so maybe not that surprising.

bobbyjoe

The Republicans ownthe votingmachines so it doesn't matter.
I read that the US elections are one of the few that have no international oversight. Anyone know if that is true?

Black Swan

BenjAii wrote: »

The one that shocks me the most was Florida barring any convicted felon from voting. From a sociological point of view that is obviously people on low incomes. That they could get away with disenfranchising a whole swathe of the population like that is truly shocking.

There is some merit in what you say, especially as it pertains to Black Americans. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics of the US Department of Justice:

"Based on current rates of first incarceration, an estimated 32% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 17% of Hispanic males and 5.9% of white males."

In Florida that means that about 1 in 3 Black males will not be allowed to vote at some point in their lifetime.

Source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#lifetime

alastair

The ACORN story is interesting in that it was ACORN themselves who brought their concerns about some of the voter registration abuse to the authorities - the impetus for this whole thing wasn't a super-investigator, but internal reviews in ACORN themselves. On that basis the raids do look more like theatre than anything useful.

Black Swan

"One of their biggest headaches: the swelling ranks of voters with new addresses because of recent foreclosure proceedings.

More than 2 million foreclosure proceedings are pending in the United States, according to the Irvine, Calif.-based RealtyTrac organization. Key states such as Ohio and Florida have been especially hard hit.

The prospect of a tsunami of voters with outdated addresses showing up at polling places has election officials worried."

Source: http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/election_voter_fraud/2008/10/06/137898.html

Pocono Joe

I predict we’ll finally know the winner of this election some time in mid 2009. :rolleyes:

jmayo

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I predict we’ll finally know the winner of this election some time in mid 2009. :rolleyes:

Exclusively brought to you by Bush News sorry I mean Fox News

iwudluvit

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

There is some merit in what you say, especially as it pertains to Black Americans. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics of the US Department of Justice:

"Based on current rates of first incarceration, an estimated 32% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 17% of Hispanic males and 5.9% of white males."

In Florida that means that about 1 in 3 Black males will not be allowed to vote at some point in their lifetime.

Source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#lifetime

could you imagine how much more conniving politicans could be if criminals could elect a candidate??!

Mr.Micro

iwudluvit wrote: »

could you imagine how much more conniving politicans could be if criminals could elect a candidate??!

Criminals are often elected instead.

iwudluvit

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Criminals are often elected instead.

and if criminals could vote...how much worse would they...?

oh forget it.

herobear

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_el_ge/voter_purges

NEW YORK - Tens of thousands of eligible voters have been removed from rolls or blocked from registering in at least six swing states, and the voters' exclusion appears to violate federal law, according to a published report.

The New York Times based its findings on reviews of state records and Social Security data.

The Times said voters appear to have been purged by mistake and not because of any intentional violations by election officials or coordinated efforts by any party.

States have been trying to follow the Help America Vote Act of 2002 by removing the names of voters who should no longer be listed. But for every voter added to the rolls in the past two months in some states, election officials have removed two, a review of the records shows.

The newspaper said it identified apparent problems in Colorado, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Nevada and North Carolina. It says some states are improperly using Social Security data to verify new voters' registration applications, and others may have broken rules that govern removing voters from the rolls within 90 days of a federal election.

Democrats have been more aggressive at registering new voters this year, according to state election officials, so any closer screening of new applications may affect their party's supporters disproportionately, the Times said.

The result is that on Election Day, voters who have been removed from the rolls could show up and be challenged by political party officials or election workers.

The six states seem to have violated federal law in two ways. Some are removing voters from the rolls within 90 days of a federal election, which is not allowed except when voters die, notify the authorities that they have moved out of state, or have been declared unfit to vote.

And some of the states are improperly using Social Security data to verify registration applications for new voters, the newspaper reported.

"Just as voting machines were the major issue that came out of the 2000 presidential election and provisional ballots were the big issue from 2004, voter registration and these statewide lists will be the top concern this year," said Daniel P. Tokaji, a law professor at Ohio State University.

GuanYin

The issue with many of these agencies is that they pay young inexperienced people to register voters and usually pay on a registration commission basis.

This can lead to fake registrations as workers try to meet quotas to get their bonus targets. A fake registration does not equal a fake vote.

ACORN regularly reports fake registrations to the authorities so I find it hard to believe that they're also running a mass voter fraud campaign on the side.

This looks to be more dirty tricks by FOX and Republican extremists.

Notice the nature of the registration organization, there were others mentioned in lower-key reports as having issues with workers faking registrations to earn money (one woman was investigated but not charged as she did it for bonus targets) but it is the one that targets minorities that FOX pick up on.

Hrmmmmmmmm

Dwn Wth Vwls

The concern over possible voter fraud may re-ignite the debate about voters being forced to bring identification to the polls.

Civil liberties groups have claimed in the past that such a rule would disadvantage poor and minority voters.

It seems so strange that you don't need to provide any form of ID. Although I guess it's even stranger that people can't afford any form of ID.

Lil' Smiler

hehe..reminds me of this video from the Simpsons I came across last week.. "Homer to vote for Obama"

(I'm not good with the embedding videos and all that stuff)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f7d_1222962429

Manic Moran

Dwn Wth Vwls wrote: »

It seems so strange that you don't need to provide any form of ID. Although I guess it's even stranger that people can't afford any form of ID.

It's gotten as far as the Supreme Court, through Indiana if I recall. The argument is that there is an un-necessarily onerous expense involved in getting ID. For example, going to the local DMV office or police station. Bear in mind that there is no legal requirement to carry ID in the US, and that it is forbidden to 'tax' (including ID card processing fees) civil rights which is basically what such a requirement would be: Must pay a fee to get a card to allow you to vote, when voting is a civil right.

However, SCOTUS ruled in favour of the Indiana law, on the basis that there was an exclusion which said that if you had no other form of ID (Passport, Driver's license, etc), the fee for a State ID card would be waived, and they also ruled that the process for getting the ID was no more onerous than the process of voting: Either doing it by mail, or walking/bussing/driving down to the local facility.

NTM

Mr.Micro

iwudluvit wrote: »

and if criminals could vote...how much worse would they...?

oh forget it.

Thats the point you can't get much worse than electing criminals( collectively most politicians IMO). It would make no difference if convicted persons could vote as candidates in a democracy are supposed to be upstanding citizens without criminal convictions and not be bankrupt. So how you can say giving convicts the vote would make things worse is nonesense.

Overheal

What about fingerprint, or some other form of biometric ID? You wouldn't necessarily even need to tie this to an individual before voting: go in, they take your print, and its added to the database. when it finds a match, theres your fraud.

norbert64

Dwn Wth Vwls wrote: »

It seems so strange that you don't need to provide any form of ID. Although I guess it's even stranger that people can't afford any form of ID.

I brought my passport along for the Lisbon vote there in June, but they never asked for it?

just checked my voting card and sent me on my way.

Also, on the ID thing, if it wasn't for my folks getting passports for the whole family back when I was a kid, I'd have no ID whatsoever.

On the voter fraud issue, certain people are just getting all there ducks in a row, for a possible Obama win. :rolleyes:

GuanYin

Overheal wrote: »

What about fingerprint, or some other form of biometric ID? You wouldn't necessarily even need to tie this to an individual before voting: go in, they take your print, and its added to the database. when it finds a match, theres your fraud.

That is what we need in the US right now, more Orwellian measures.

dave2pvd

BenjAii wrote: »

Florida..............but then it was only a few decades ago southern states were able to stop black people from voting full stop, so maybe not that surprising.

Florida isn't really the South you speak of. Strange as that may seem. In many ways, it more more closely aligned with any one of: Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Cuba......

Dwn Wth Vwls wrote: »

It seems so strange that you don't need to provide any form of ID. Although I guess it's even stranger that people can't afford any form of ID.

In some states ID is required to vote. Georgia is one. The ID being a 'hardship' for lower incomes argument really is hogwash.

Overheal

GuanYin wrote: »

That is what we need in the US right now, more Orwellian measures.

Hey, I wouldn't mind too much. My laptop probably already sent my fingerprint to the feds.

Pocono Joe

GuanYin wrote: »

That is what we need in the US right now, more Orwellian measures.

I wouldn’t want an Orwellian society either. But little is truly happening about all the voter fraud being perpetrated on behalf of the Democratic party. Please do a little investigation to Bonusgate here in Pennsylvania. No changes in the outcome of elections going back to 2004 will be made. I believe the investigation is only about a third done and might reach all the way to the top. Or with ACORN, or examples in 2004 in New England areas where more Democrats voted than there were registered Democrat. These are just a few of the examples. Not to mention some systems in place that allow illegal aliens the opportunity to vote. Do you think there should be veryh harsh treatment for these voter fraud issues?

And yes, there are some instances of questionable actions on behalf of the Republicans, primarily in the way or redistricting.

The Mad Hatter

Overheal wrote: »

What about fingerprint, or some other form of biometric ID? You wouldn't necessarily even need to tie this to an individual before voting: go in, they take your print, and its added to the database. when it finds a match, theres your fraud.

IIRC the larger a user base, the more likely it is for two prints to match up closely enough to be mistaken.

Manic Moran

where more Democrats voted than there were registered Democrat

Hang on, how do they figure that? I've never seen a General Election ballot which requires that you identify either yourself or your party affiliation.

NTM

lostexpectation

Hobbes wrote: »

I forget, but there is a way to get this information.

i know like here that through years of canvassing you can have records on nearly everyone and their voting history....

is being registered democrat or repub mean you are party member paying dues?

have i heard people say they were registered independent?

bobbyjoe

So you can just make up names and register them, then go and vote under that name????
Sounds like a dumb system.
Are there no checks at the polling station or with voter registers?

Manic Moran

is being registered democrat or repub mean you are party member paying dues?

No. It means that you have indicated an affiliation with the party. If you choose to donate money is your affair. Depending on the State it has different effects. For example, in California which has a semi-closed system, as I'm not a registered Republican, I cannot vote in the Republican primary and thus had no say over who would be the Republican candidate. This does not apply across all States, and need not apply throughout the entire State either: I could vote in the Democratic primary as the Democrats allow Democrats and independents (little "i") to vote in theirs.

have i heard people say they were registered independent?

In California, the box says 'Decline to state.' There is a party called the American Independent party, so it could cause confusion. However, generally, yes, we'd say 'registered independent' to indicate that we're registered to vote, but are independent of any party.

So you can just make up names and register them, then go and vote under that name????
Sounds like a dumb system.

Hence the desire from some parts to come up with the supposedly disenfranchising ID system.

Are there no checks at the polling station or with voter registers?

Not any which are particularly thorough. I don't believe there is any requirement to prove proof of citizenship, and proof of residence can be producing a bank statement with your name and address on it.

For example, go to California's Secretary of State web page, and click on the page to fill out the registration form, maybe for Alameda county.
http://www.sos.ca.gov/nvrc/fedform/Default.aspx

Either use a stolen SSN, or even just go with the 'I have no ID number' option. (Don't hit 'submit'!)

NTM

Black Swan

Don't you just love conspiracy theories; this one related to the forthcoming election, which promises to be a narrow win by one of the presidential platforms? The 2008 presidential election fraud conspiracy? Whomever loses will claim it for the reason they lost. How exciting! And even though there will be some fraud in this election (there always seems to be), the major threat to this election is not fraud, but election administration incompetence. This election is huge and complex, leaving a lot of room for human and voting machine error, and it will occur, perhaps on massive scales.

One source of error: It has been estimated that over 2,000,000 home foreclosures during this economic meltdown will result in address changes for millions of voters, having been registered under their old home address which they lost to foreclosure, now having a new one that is not reflected in the 4 November records. Furthermore, their new address may be in a different voting precinct or district than their old home. Some will be denied access to the polls, while others may vote in the wrong district, etc., etc. Fraud? No! A potential voting records screw-up indeed, which will be claimed as election fraud by the losing presidential platform!

Plus, think of all the voting machine and election ballot errors for the 2000 Bush-Gore presidential election, especially with the problems in Florida. You will see more of this in this election, if it is narrowly won by one platform. Yes, there may have been some fraud in Florida, but the major problems were more than likely due to human, machine, and ballot errors, not fraud. But just watch, whomever loses, be they Republican or Democrat, will scream fraud!

The only way this will not be an issue, is if one platform wins by a landslide, which I doubt will happen. It will be close, and election fraud will be screamed by the losers!

Manic Moran

Strange. Another post in which Mr Lagoon and I agree.

Those zombies are coming, aren't they?

NTM

Black Swan

Manic Moran wrote: »

Strange. Another post in which Mr Lagoon and I agree.

LOL! But once again your facts are wrong..."Mr Lagoon" hahaha! Ooooooo, look out Tar, you might have some competition!

lostexpectation

Manic Moran wrote: »

No. It means that you have indicated an affiliation with the party. If you choose to donate money is your affair. Depending on the State it has different effects. For example, in California which has a semi-closed system, as I'm not a registered Republican, I cannot vote in the Republican primary and thus had no say over who would be the Republican candidate. This does not apply across all States, and need not apply throughout the entire State either: I could vote in the Democratic primary as the Democrats allow Democrats and independents (little "i") to vote in theirs.

where is this indicated?

Manic Moran

where is this indicated?

Which bit?

NTM

lostexpectation

It means that you have indicated an affiliation with the party.. where is the list of people who are registered?

Manic Moran

lostexpectation wrote: »

It means that you have indicated an affiliation with the party.. where is the list of people who are registered?

In CA, at least, it's kept by the Registrar of Voters, of which each county has one. I'm sure each party is notified of their affiliates by the Registrar. During primary elections, you receive a ballot sheet depending on your request and which way you are registered. I do not believe there is any online list of voters and their party affiliation wherein we can just go and browse, but I'm sure it is available under the FoIA. During the General election, there is only one ballot sheet, so affiliation is irrelevant.

NTM

lostexpectation

should a government have a list of how people vote?

can anyone look at it at the court house?

can the parties look at it?

do primaries not happen at polling places, are they not organised by partiesthemselves? do the dems have list of registered democrats, how do they know if somebody is independent and not republican?

can a registered voter have no affiliation? ( i presume they can register green,socialist etc)

Manic Moran

lostexpectation wrote: »

should a government have a list of how people vote?

I would hope not. The US doesn't. Remember that party affiliation has nothing whatsoever to do with how you vote. You could have been a registered Republican for the last 40 years, there's nothing stopping you voting Democrat, and there's no way for the government to know which way you voted.

can anyone look at it at the court house?

The Registrar of Voter's list, probably, at the county offices.

can the parties look at it?

I believe anyone can if they're willing to fill out the forms and pay the $15 processing fee. (Or whatever it is)

do primaries not happen at polling places, are they not organised by partiesthemselves? do the dems have list of registered democrats, how do they know if somebody is independent and not republican?

The primaries are almost invariably held at polling places, usually as an additional ballot sheet. Show up at the polling station, and cast your vote for Mayor, City Water Engineer, Proposition 76, whatever. You also get, if applicable, a ballot sheet for a party's primary. Primaries are basically funded by the State, at least the first time, as a service. Look at the hassle in Florida over the demands for a do-over in the Democratic primary: the State said "no, we're not paying for a second one. If you want a second one, pay for it yourself"

As a result, the County poll-worker who issues out the ballot sheets also has a list provided by the Registrar indicating who is affiliated with which party. He/she then hands out the appropriate party's ballot sheet with the county ballot.

can a registered voter have no affiliation? ( i presume they can register green,socialist etc)

Yes. Witness above, comments about 'Decline to State', 'registered independents'

NTM

lostexpectation

Manic Moran wrote: »

I would hope not. The US doesn't. Remember that party affiliation has nothing whatsoever to do with how you vote. You could have been a registered Republican for the last 40 years, there's nothing stopping you voting Democrat, and there's no way for the government to know which way you voted.

they have list of the names of address' and the 'chances are' list of how they'll vote.

i find that bizarre.

does it trample on the line of a secret ballot.

Manic Moran

I think you're overstating the issue.

You could have been registered with the Democratic Party for the last 40 years, there's nothing stopping you from having voted Republican for every election in the last 40 years.

NTM

lostexpectation

it could be used to harrass people whether they vote that way or not.

is it not used to target voters in such scheme as shown above?

which at the very least could prevent people from registering and engaging in party systems properly.

Manic Moran

I guess it could, but I've never heard of it being done. I mean, just what sort of harassing would you do that wouldn't run a major risk of backfiring on you?

If anyone's being targetted, it's the 'decline to states.' We're the swing votes. Not least, the pollsters love us.

NTM

Manic Moran

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

LOL! But once again your facts are wrong..."Mr Lagoon" hahaha! Ooooooo, look out Tar, you might have some competition!

Sorry.. Master Lagoon?

NTM

Black Swan

Manic Moran wrote: »

Sorry.. Master Lagoon?

You can call me master if you like. I did win the toss and got the master stateroom on our boat, so it fits. Plus, I kinda like the ring to it...

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul.":cool: