Full Back Squat Q's

Beau

Ok so I'm doing my squats the starting strength way of toes pointing out with a wide stance and knees out. However my rugby coach reckons a narrower stance with toes pointing forward would be more beneficial for rugby.

I'm making good progress with the ss way but my coach has a point, in a tackle or the scrum toes are pointing forward and you'd have a narrower stance.

What do you guys think?

tribulus

I don't think your squat stance in relation to your scrum stance is as important as the fact you'll be stronger/more explosive.

If you're happy and making progress that way I'd be inclined to stick with, don't want to piss off the coach though!

Colm_OReilly

Beau,

The squat shouldn't be an overly wide stance in any case, and the squat is primarily done for strength gain. Read the section in SS about the specific nature of sports adaptation.

In any case, you'll be doing your deadlifts, power cleans, and presses from a narrower stance that will be more akin to the scrummage.

You don't want conditioning for any sports to mimic exactly the movements of the sport, as this will interfere with the skill element (motor neuron recruitment). You need
a) to get stronger for your sport, as all else equal stronger is better
b) the training to mimic the demands of the sport, (high intensity, short duration, max effort)

In a rush now off to coach but if you need further advice give me a shout

Colm

Hanley

Lol at your coach trying to use a strength exercise to train on the field skill work.

Good oul Irish S&C.

Spaceman Spiff

Beau wrote: »

Ok so I'm doing my squats the starting strength way of toes pointing out with a wide stance and knees out. However my rugby coach reckons a narrower stance with toes pointing forward would be more beneficial for rugby.

I'm making good progress with the ss way but my coach has a point, in a tackle or the scrum toes are pointing forward and you'd have a narrower stance.

What do you guys think?

It may seem to make sense, but your coach is wrong. Wide stance, toes out is how the best pros do it. With a narrow stance you're really just going to be using your quads. In the 'ss' position, you should be using your hamstrings, gluts and back which is far more beneficial to rugby. This is how Phil Vickery can squat 700 pounds.

Hanley

Spaceman Spiff wrote: »

. This is how Phil Vickery can squat 700 pounds.

*cough* bullsh!t *cough*

kevpants

Spaceman Spiff wrote: »

It may seem to make sense, but your coach is wrong. Wide stance, toes out is how the best pros do it. With a narrow stance you're really just going to be using your quads. In the 'ss' position, you should be using your hamstrings, gluts and back which is far more beneficial to rugby. This is how Phil Vickery can squat 700 pounds.

Careful young padowan it's easy to go too wide. Hanley will atest to my technique beng to wide in stance. My knees were being dragged in on the way up. And it didn't feel that wide to me! I'm forcing my stance narrower now and I'm much more powerful.

There's a big difference between at 1200lb squatting powerlifter wit his toes touching the sides of the rack and a novice squatter. You can't just go straight to the guys at the very top of their game and copy what they do, there's a progression. Same with bodybuilders, so many novice guys trying to do Jay Cutlers routine and diet. Doesn't work that way.

LightningBolt

Just do whatever is comfortable for you

Spaceman Spiff

kevpants wrote: »

Careful young padowan it's easy to go too wide. Hanley will atest to my technique beng to wide in stance. My knees were being dragged in on the way up. And it didn't feel that wide to me! I'm forcing my stance narrower now and I'm much more powerful.

There's a big difference between at 1200lb squatting powerlifter wit his toes touching the sides of the rack and a novice squatter. You can't just go straight to the guys at the very top of their game and copy what they do, there's a progression. Same with bodybuilders, so many novice guys trying to do Jay Cutlers routine and diet. Doesn't work that way.

Well by 'wide' I should have specified just beyond shoulder width (I guess "wide" can be taken in many different ways).

But you should always be able to start with a wide stance, you just need to work you back that much harder to keep it locked when you're working with a lower weight. I'm 230 pounds and my trainer had me doing 50kg for close to a month before I was able to increase the weight (3 sets of 2, it looked embarassing, but now I'm stronger than I ever was doing it "the North American way").

Spaceman Spiff

Hanley wrote: »

*cough* bullsh!t *cough*

The 2003 Vickery could anyway, Its not even 3 times his own bodyweight, if it weren't for injuries he probably would have gone higher.

Chris89

a narrower stance is the more athletic position, if you were asked to jump, you would assume a narrower stance than a powerlifting style squat.

that being said, you wont be lifting as much weight.

BobbyOLeary

Yes. Because a squat is the same thing as a vertical jump.

The starting strength style squat will allow you to get stronger, and in my experience anyway, will allow you to get stronger quicker than any other stance. Strength for rugby is good, and squatting like Rippetoe suggests will help you with this.

As a personal anecdote, my knees hurt like hell if I point them forward with any decent amount of weight on my back.

d-gal

go with the toes pointing out and the very slightly wider stance, it will allow you to go deeper and bring in more work on other muscles.
oh hanley i doubt the coach is an s&c coach..that would mean he would be one of the around ten in ireland :pac::D
stupid irish courses :mad:

Chris89

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Yes. Because a squat is the same thing as a vertical jump.

Hmm, what a drab attempt at sarcasm.

Olympic lifters do not use a wide stance when they clean and jerk. why is this do you reckon?

BobbyOLeary

Hmm, what a drab attempt at sarcasm.

Hmm, what a drab attempt at athletic advice.

What do you mean they don't use a wide stance? Any olympic weightlifting I've seen starts in a narrow stance and the catch is received in a typical squat stance, either front or overhead. Heels slightly wider than shoulder width, heels pointed out. Eerily similar to a starting strength squat except its not a back squat.

Hanley

Chris89 wrote: »

a narrower stance is the more athletic position, if you were asked to jump, you would assume a narrower stance than a powerlifting style squat.

that being said, you wont be lifting as much weight.

What's a powerlifting style squat?

Chris89

Ah, i see.

I meant a wider stance as per Rip's book. Obviously I accept powerlifters have different styles.

I was recently at a Crossfit Cert in Manchester, and I actually queried why the squats and deads were done with narrow stances and why Sumo pulls and wide stance squats werent part of the practice.

I was told that although these techniques can help lift more weight, the are not as practical and applicable to athletics and other areas of fitness as their narrow stanced cousins.

brianthebard

Hanley wrote: »

What's a powerlifting style squat?

Funnily enough (sort of) I was at the chiropractor today (boo), but he understands lifting (yay) so we went through different stances that would suit my squatting to find one that didn't lead to my pelvis rotating forward and rounding my back...we found that a wide stance of about two times shoulder width, and sitting straight down was pretty much ideal. The one good thing to come out of this injury is I have my form set.

tribulus

brianthebard wrote: »

Funnily enough (sort of) I was at the chiropractor today (boo), but he understands lifting (yay) so we went through different stances that would suit my squatting to find one that didn't lead to my pelvis rotating forward and rounding my back...we found that a wide stance of about two times shoulder width, and sitting straight down was pretty much ideal. The one good thing to come out of this injury is I have my form set.

Make sure to stretch out your whole hip/arse are regularly if you're squatting wide like this, they're gonna get some punishment.

brianthebard

How do I do that? I've been told to lay off any lower back stretches or lifts that cause it to round (in fairness that something that should always be avoided). Tbh I'd love to give my hips some punishment if I could just get back under the bar! Its even more frustrating that I have been back 3 weeks and have to stop again, exactly what I didn't want to happen. *sigh*

Beau

Ok thanks guys, I'll stick with my SS so but maybe watch that I'm not going to wide. I'm going to video myself doing a set on Friday anyway, I might stick it up.

tribulus

Just google or youtube piriformis, glute, hip flexor stretches etc. and you'll get plenty of ideas.

Nothing wrong with squatting wide, it will certainly help your hip strength (as will sumo pulls) but just be prepared for them to get very tight if you don't stretch them often.

g'em

tribulus wrote: »

Make sure to stretch out your whole hip/arse are regularly if you're squatting wide like this, they're gonna get some punishment.

Just a +1 to this - really make the time to work on hip & bum area flexibility, it'll pay off. A foam roller will come in handy too.

Colm_OReilly

Chris,

Rip gives detailed reasoning for why the stance for squatting in Starting Strength is as wide as it is (just outside shoulder width).

As for the pulling position of the clean and snatch, it's a pulling position, not a squatting position. The deadlift is also done from a narrower stance as well.

Beau, if you're around I'll give you a hand with your squat if you'd like, free of charge.

Roper

Well aren't we all mother superiors? Suddenly his "rugby coach" is an S&C coach? Where does the OP say that? How do you all know how wide he's squatting right now or how narrow his coach is asking him to move in to?

Still, suppose it's easier to be sarcastic then have a debate.

Sligo 2008

good

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

Well aren't we all mother superiors? Suddenly his "rugby coach" is an S&C coach? Where does the OP say that? How do you all know how wide he's squatting right now or how narrow his coach is asking him to move in to?

Still, suppose it's easier to be sarcastic then have a debate.

Well if his coach is telling him how to weight train, I would have thought it was fair to assume he was trying to tell him how to train for strength.

Actually, you know what, point out where I said his rugby coach was an S&C coach?? I said that the state of Irish strength and conditioning is poor. And it is if his rugby coach is telling him to squat with a rugby stance.

d-gal

Hanley wrote: »

Well if his coach is telling him how to weight train, I would have thought it was fair to assume he was trying to tell him how to train for strength.

Actually, you know what, point out where I said his rugby coach was an S&C coach?? I said that the state of Irish strength and conditioning is poor. And it is if his rugby coach is telling him to squat with a rugby stance.

+1

Roper

You're still just speculating Hanley. Rugby stance? He said narrower stance which as I said could be anything from a sumo to feet together.

We can all sit back and bitch and moan about the state of Irish S&C without having experienced it first hand. Just as I could sit back and whine about the state of Irish Powerlifting, or Tennis or anything that comes to mind that I feel isn't up to scratch in this country. I wonder how much his rugby coach gets paid to do that? If he's one of 99% of the coaches in Ireland then he gets paid nothing, and does it for the love of the game and to give back to the sport. What do most of these coaches get? Moaning from people who either think they can do better or know better.

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

You're still just speculating Hanley. Rugby stance? He said narrower stance which as I said could be anything from a sumo to feet together.

Woulda thought it was pretty obvious from this post, the original post, the sorta of stance we're talking about;

Beau wrote: »

Ok so I'm doing my squats the starting strength way of toes pointing out with a wide stance and knees out. However my rugby coach reckons a narrower stance with toes pointing forward would be more beneficial for rugby...

...in a tackle or the scrum toes are pointing forward and you'd have a narrower stance.

We can all sit back and bitch and moan about the state of Irish S&C without having experienced it first hand. Just as I could sit back and whine about the state of Irish Powerlifting, or Tennis or anything that comes to mind that I feel isn't up to scratch in this country. I wonder how much his rugby coach gets paid to do that? If he's one of 99% of the coaches in Ireland then he gets paid nothing, and does it for the love of the game and to give back to the sport. What do most of these coaches get? Moaning from people who either think they can do better or know better.

Ah yah, may as well bury our heads in the sand and say it's all hunky dory!! Sure why would we rock the boat or come up with alternate ideas??

Nice one tho for trying to make it look like I was attacking a coach who gives up his free time to help kids out. But do you know he's doing that? Or are you just speculating too now???

Roper

Hanley wrote: »

Ah yah, may as well bury our heads in the sand and say it's all hunky dory!! Sure why would we rock the boat or come up with alternate ideas??

So you saying pah and guffaw to good ol Irish S&C was coming up with new ideas? I must have misinterpreted. I'm not trying to say things are fine or hunky dory and if you read my post history you'll know that's not my opinion. However scoffing and lofting over people helps nothing, but in fairness, it does make one feel superior so I can understand why people might engage in it. Until you get your feet freezing cold and shout yourself hoarse on a sideline, beside a ring, in a stand and understand how difficult it is to get amateur athletes be they young or old from a state of zero skill to moderate skill, then I don't think you've earned the right to criticise people who get what they can in terms of education and make do with what they know the rest of the time.

Nice one tho for trying to make it look like I was attacking a coach who gives up his free time to help kids out. But do you know he's doing that? Or are you just speculating too now???

Who said anything about kids? 99.999% recieve nothing but thanks for their time so it's pretty safe to assume that, but I could be wrong, that's why I said the 99% bit. And you weren't attacking him or scoffing at him? Fine then, I must misunderstanderate this English thing.

LightningBolt

Hanley wrote: »

squat with a rugby stance.

What's squatting with a rugby stance? I know what the OP means I'm just curious as to whether or not you do?

Hanley

LightningBolt wrote: »

What's squatting with a rugby stance? I know what the OP means I'm just curious as to whether or not you do?

Squatting with the same stance width you would use in rugby maybe??????????

Of course there's the "atheltic" width stance, and stance you'd use in a scrum....

kevpants

Maybe the coach meant use the athletic stance?

I think it was either Jim Wendler or Dave Tate (one of the elitefts guys anyhoo) who said a football, Amercian football in this case, coach would be mad not to train their athletes in the athletic stance for the squat.

I think he described it as the stance you'd adopt instinctively if you were about to be thrown a ball or the stance you'd land in if you jumped off a bench. Perhaps the coachs explanation for this stance was "like you would in a scrum". He could have been giving a relative example of the stance.

If this is the case I don't think he can be criticised for using the squat as an exercise to build on the pitch skills.

Beau

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Beau, if you're around I'll give you a hand with your squat if you'd like, free of charge.

Thanks Colm for that generous offer, where abouts are you based?

Thanks aswell to everyone else for your advice and opinions.

For the sake of the argument my coach is a rugby development officer for my college and local club and is employed by the IRFU. Its the IRFU's opinion that a shoulder width stance and toes pointing forward is the most beneficial form technique for rugby.

Personally I'm going to stick with whats working for me at the moment.

Colm_OReilly

Beau,

I'm out in Tallaght. I'm fairly free during the day these days so I can head to you if needs be.

Its the IRFU's opinion that a shoulder width stance and toes pointing forward is the most beneficial form technique for rugby.

That's the problem, why we squat is not based on opinion. It's based upon skeletal geometry and muscular anatomy.

As a massive rugby fan myself anything I can do to contribute to rugby development I'm happy to do.

Col