40K people, including nationalized immigrants and non-resident aliens on the dole

TheDude2008

And 112,00 immigrants have arrived so far this year acording to the cso website. HELLO we are in recession and we take in 112,00 immigrants so far this year when irish people are being layed off in there tens of thousands, there is massive anger out there massive im hearing it every day, we must be the softest touch of a nation on earth.

mike65

Where is the sauce for 50k on the dole?

Mike

Red Hand

You sure about those figures? And by dole, do you mean the social insurance stamps that people work up if they have a PRSI number?

TheDude2008

Here is the link mike 41,214
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/current/lregeo.pdf

mike65

Cheers, so its 40 thousand not 50 and that would include people like me (I have lived here since childhood but I'm still a "non-national").

The Live Register is not designed to measure unemployment. It includes
part-time workers (those who work up to three days a week), seasonal and casual
workers entitled to Jobseekers Benefit or Allowance. Unemployment is measured
by the Quarterly National Household Survey and the latest figure, for March to
May 2008, is 115,500 persons unemployed.

Mike

TheDude2008

And here is the link for the amount of immigrants that have applied for pps numbers so far this year 112,000, we got 4,259 people from brazil i mean how are is that number been left in when thousands of irish people been layed off, this is unsustainable.http://www.welfare.ie/topics/ppsn/ppsn_all_month08.html

TheDude2008

Mike i have no problem with non nationals just that we can not have such crazy immigration levels in this country we can not sustain it and now we are in recession, i beleive anyone who has arrived here since 2004 should by all means be given the dole but only for a maximuim of 6 months, the dole in this country is like a months wages in theres so of course a lot of them are going to stay on dole here instead of going home.

Mr.Micro

We are in the EU so any person who comes to work here is entitled to benefits and rightly so IMO. The naivete of people in thinking just because we have a recession that all these non national people should just up and leave, to go where and leave what they may have achieved here. These people are here because they want to be and are entitled to be here and are welcome as far as I am concerned. Its the Government,the banks and international economics that have caused the recession and if the Government can/have given a blank guarantee to the banks for 400 billion Euro then the dole is chicken feed. I abhor people whipping up this anti non national hysteria.

JWAD

TheDude2008 wrote: »

And 112,00 immigrants have arrived so far this year acording to the cso website. HELLO we are in recession and we take in 112,00 immigrants so far this year when irish people are being layed off in there tens of thousands, there is massive anger out there massive im hearing it every day, we must be the softest touch of a nation on earth.

The percentage increase of nationals signing-on is greater than that of the non-nationals.
It also includes the amount of employees in work transit ie. 'between jobs'.
Immigration overall to Ireland has decreased.

There will always be mobility of labour and there will always be immigration linked to states of economy. This country alone is testament to this in migration to and from. It still seems people want as much as possible for nothing from the EU and whinge when the country has to contribute. Everything for nothing. An hypocritical trait of the Nouveaux Riches Irish since the 90s.

I've read articles from certain press pundits criticising immigration here yet lauding, for example, any moves towards increasing residency possibilities for illegal Irish immigrants in the States.

A country which has provided a huge chunk of the western world's migrant population kicking and screaming about immigration is ironic, dontchya think?

mikemac

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Government can/have given a blank guarantee to the banks for 40 billion Euro then the dole is chicken feed.

I read it was 400 billion
Wow, a massive difference between 40 and 400, maybe the media are giving inaccurate figures

lostexpectation

we've only been in recession two weeks ya know

lostexpectation

TheDude2008 wrote: »

Mike i have no problem with non nationals just that we can not have such crazy immigration levels in this country we can not sustain it and now we are in recession, i beleive anyone who has arrived here since 2004 should by all means be given the dole but only for a maximuim of 6 months, the dole in this country is like a months wages in theres so of course a lot of them are going to stay on dole here instead of going home.

maybe they lost their jobs unexpectedly


you are going to get boring very quickly

Tipsy Mac

TheDude2008 wrote: »

and we take in 112,00 immigrants so far this year

There's no option to not "take in" we are in the EU, we have no choice to refuse other EU citizens coming here. Ireland has one of the best doles in Europe, I would actually think that more and more unemployed people will come here as the doles alot better than most countries.

JWAD

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Ireland has one of the best doles in Europe

The Social Security system here is one of the worst around. Compare to France, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, for example, and you'll find your claim is quite easy to disprove.

jmayo

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

There's no option to not "take in" we are in the EU, we have no choice to refuse other EU citizens coming here. Ireland has one of the best doles in Europe, I would actually think that more and more unemployed people will come here as the doles alot better than most countries.

I seem to remember the Brits saying something similar about the Irish way back.
But I suppose that was different.
You know what the real kicker in all this is the "massive" amount of people usually doing the complaining are the f-ers that complained that non-nationals were coming here taking their jobs, these would be the same people that just about manage to get between the dole office, the bookies, the post office and the pub :rolleyes:
Has anybody cared to notice why we had such an influx of immigrants in the first place ? It was becuase some of us Irish couldn't be ar*ed working, particularly in low paid menial jobs. Not all migrants worked in hi tech industry or as tradespeople. A lot of them worked in shops, bars, restaurants, cleaning etc.

Mr.Micro

A country which has provided a huge chunk of the western world's migrant population kicking and screaming about immigration is ironic, dontchya think?

I agree JWAD its downright hypocrisy to say the least. Us Irish have emigrated all over the world one would think that we would have a modicum of understanding and empathy with our non national population, alas not so with some people.

djpbarry

TheDude2008 wrote: »

Mike i have no problem with non nationals...

The fact that you felt the need to start this thread suggests otherwise.

TheDude2008 wrote: »

...just that we can not have such crazy immigration levels in this country we can not sustain it...

By definition, something that is unsustainable will not sustain itself, which is probably why net emigration has been forecast for next year. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good old-fashioned xenophobic rant, eh?

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

...I would actually think that more and more unemployed people will come here as the doles alot better than most countries.

Ireland has a better welfare system than "most countries"? Most EU countries? I doubt it. Besides, nobody can claim social welfare in this country without making a minimum number of PRSI contributions.

Guy:Incognito

JWAD wrote: »

A country which has provided a huge chunk of the western world's migrant population kicking and screaming about immigration is ironic, dontchya think?

Nope. What Irish people do abroad is the problem of the country they do it in until such time as they are sent back.

What Irish and foreign people do in Ireland is a separate issue and one for Ireland to deal with.

citizen zero

This is laughable. As has been said by a few people earlier, we are in the EU which is where the vast majority of immigrants come from. Now we are in an economic downturn and people are losing their jobs I think it's only reasonable to assume that quite a few people signing on and claiming what they are entitled to will be born outside Ireland. We were happy enough to take their contributions to the system though!

vincenzo1975

How many jobs are provided in this country by 'non national' companies?

Maybe if the 'non national' companies gave the jobs to the 'non national' people, in their home countries, then things would even out.

No wait, something wrong with that suggestion:rolleyes:

amacachi

djpbarry wrote:

Besides, nobody can claim social welfare in this country without making a minimum number of PRSI contributions.

Sure about that?

JWAD

Stekelly wrote: »

Nope. What Irish people do abroad is the problem of the country they do it in until such time as they are sent back.

What Irish and foreign people do in Ireland is a separate issue and one for Ireland to deal with.

If there is no social benefits system for those who come to settle here while they seek work then there is a problem that can augment.

Here's some news for you: Not all those signing on the live register WANT to work. There is a large proportion on the live register who actually ARE working but taking the system for all its worth while earning a 'black' wage. Is this exclusive to non-nationals? If you think it is then I give up......................:rolleyes:
I know musicians who work, gain stipends and even run bloody market stalls.

Sort out leeches sucking on the social welfare system wherever they're from.

And yes it is ironic that an Irish person moans on this subject. Apart from the figures being inflated and cherry picked in the beginning of the thread, it usually boils down to convenient ignorance.

I'd wager that a large percentage of those who moan and wail about Johnny Foreigner have all worked abroad at some stage of their life or have someone close in their family who has done so.

gandalf

Its people of this character we need to be expunging from our dole queues and maybe even our society.

dante18

TheDude2008 wrote: »

And 112,00 immigrants have arrived so far this year acording to the cso website. HELLO we are in recession and we take in 112,00 immigrants so far this year when irish people are being layed off in there tens of thousands, there is massive anger out there massive im hearing it every day, we must be the softest touch of a nation on earth.

I agree, immigration has gotten completely out of control and something needs to be done to bring it under control. The simple fact is that we don't have enough new jobs being created in this country to justify this level of immigration. If it wasn't for all the hysterical "anyone-who-wants-to-see-less-immigration-hates-foreigners" BS from well-meaning but deluded liberals, the government would have faced up to this long ago and would have done something about it. The decision to guarantee the banks just shows the government is prepared to make decisions that are unpopular with the EU so why can't they do something about immigration.

The company I'm working for is going through a tough time now and there have been rumours of layoffs. It's possible I'll be on the dole in a few weeks from now and I hate to think of my chances of getting back into employment with all the people in this country chasing the same jobs I'll be chasing.

sovtek

JWAD wrote: »

The percentage increase of nationals signing-on is greater than that of the non-nationals.
It also includes the amount of employees in work transit ie. 'between jobs'.
Immigration overall to Ireland has decreased.

There will always be mobility of labour and there will always be immigration linked to states of economy. This country alone is testament to this in migration to and from. It still seems people want as much as possible for nothing from the EU and whinge when the country has to contribute. Everything for nothing. An hypocritical trait of the Nouveaux Riches Irish since the 90s.

I've read articles from certain press pundits criticising immigration here yet lauding, for example, any moves towards increasing residency possibilities for illegal Irish immigrants in the States.

Could not have said it better.

A country which has provided a huge chunk of the western world's migrant population kicking and screaming about immigration is ironic, dontchya think?[/QUOTE]

sovtek

djpbarry wrote: »

Ireland has a better welfare system than "most countries"? Most EU countries? I doubt it. Besides, nobody can claim social welfare in this country without making a minimum number of PRSI contributions.

...and many non-eu nationals that are awaiting LTR or citizenship (about 17,000 the last time I checked) will avoid the dole as it will be used against you in your application (as **** as that is).

sovtek

Stekelly wrote: »

Nope. What Irish people do abroad is the problem of the country they do it in until such time as they are sent back.

What Irish and foreign people do in Ireland is a separate issue and one for Ireland to deal with.

Then tell your government to stay out of the affairs of US immigration and quit lobbying the US government to give illegal Irish people in America special status.

gandalf

dante18 wrote: »

I agree, immigration has gotten completely out of control and something needs to be done to bring it under control.

What close our borders to other EU citizens, as they are making up the majority of the people who are in or coming to our country. Don't forget alot of Irish have made their fortune in other EU countries as well.

The simple fact is that we don't have enough new jobs being created in this country to justify this level of immigration.

So I am imagining all the shops around Dublin who have signs up looking for employees then? The jobs are there they just mightened be in the exact areas people are looking for them in but there are jobs out there.

If it wasn't for all the hysterical "anyone-who-wants-to-see-less-immigration-hates-foreigners" BS from well-meaning but deluded liberals, the government would have faced up to this long ago and would have done something about it.

Ah its the standard label throwing now.

The decision to guarantee the banks just shows the government is prepared to make decisions that are unpopular with the EU so why can't they do something about immigration.

What exactly do you propose they do about immigration then? Come on give us some realistic alternatives that differ from the "They took our jobs" drivel you have excreted onto the forum?

The company I'm working for is going through a tough time now and there have been rumours of layoffs. It's possible I'll be on the dole in a few weeks from now and I hate to think of my chances of getting back into employment with all the people in this country chasing the same jobs I'll be chasing.

Yes every company is going through problems its called a recession, we've had redundancies here as well. I went through the early 90's and was unemployed for a while but we didn't have the crutch that "They took our jobs" to blame our problems on. I kept applying and took whatever job I could to pay my bills. (I only threw out a massive file of PFO letters that I had from that time when I moved last year).

Oh and things are going to get a lot worse than they are now, take it from someone who went through the last downturn in this country.

sovtek

dante18 wrote: »

The company I'm working for is going through a tough time now and there have been rumours of layoffs. It's possible I'll be on the dole in a few weeks from now and I hate to think of my chances of getting back into employment with all the people in this country chasing the same jobs I'll be chasing.

Dont worry all your mates will be heading off to Australia to get work so you probably won't have to worry about it. In the meantime all us foreignors who have lived here for years will probably overtake the "irish" population and breed you out of your own country. Mwah ha ha ha

dante18

gandalf wrote:

What close our borders to other EU citizens

Yes, I think it's time for us to at least temporarily restrict access to people from the Eastern European countries, at least until we've gotten through the worst of the recession. They might not be happy about it in Europe but I'm sure alot of people will understand why we need to make this decision.

gandalf wrote:

So I am imagining all the shops around Dublin who have signs up looking for employees then? The jobs are there

They are there but it would help us if those jobs went to people already on the dole, rather than to new people entering the country. The fewer people there are on the dole, the less money we'll have to spend supporting them.

gandalf wrote:

What exactly do you propose they do about immigration then?

Nothing more than what other European countries are doing. Temporarily restrict access to the Eastern European countries and take a much tougher line on illegal immigration. I think it might be worth reconsidering Leo Veradcar's proposal as well to pay immigrants on the dole to return home.

gandalf wrote:

Come on give us some realistic alternatives that differ from the "They took our jobs" drivel you have excreted onto the forum?

The ones I've listed above.

gandalf wrote:

Yes every company is going through problems its called a recession, we've had redundancies here as well. I went through the early 90's and was unemployed for a while but we didn't have the crutch that "They took our jobs" to blame our problems on.

Nobody is saying that the immigrants are to blame for the recession or that things wouldn't be bad even if we didn't have as many people in the country. The point people are making is that in a time of recession and job shortage, it doesn't make sense for us to continue to allow tens of thousands of people a year to enter our country and to take jobs that should be going to unemployed people in this country. You can use the standard "Takin our jobs" to try to brush that aside as typical ignorant bigotry but there does come a point where these things stop sounding funny and where the reality is painfully close to the caricature.

oscarBravo

dante18 wrote: »

The point people are making is that in a time of recession and job shortage, it doesn't make sense for us to continue to allow tens of thousands of people a year to enter our country and to take jobs that should be going to unemployed people in this country.

Why should they?

gandalf

dante18 wrote: »

Yes, I think it's time for us to at least temporarily restrict access to people from the Eastern European countries, at least until we've gotten through the worst of the recession. They might not be happy about it in Europe but I'm sure alot of people will understand why we need to make this decision.

But we do, we restrict workers from Bulgaria and Romania to a work permit scheme. With regard to the other accession countries from 2004 the majority of the EU now allow them unrestricted access to their labour markets as well. That means they can now move from Ireland (which they are doing now!) to most other EU countries.

They are there but it would help us if those jobs went to people already on the dole, rather than to new people entering the country. The fewer people there are on the dole, the less money we'll have to spend supporting them.

It would also help if the hard core of people on the dole wanted to work which clearly they don't. There is also the reality of people holding out for a job that may not come along. People will have to get realistic and reduce their initial job targets and go where the work is.

Nothing more than what other European countries are doing. Temporarily restrict access to the Eastern European countries and take a much tougher line on illegal immigration. I think it might be worth reconsidering Leo Veradcar's proposal as well to pay immigrants on the dole to return home.

We are doing what the majority of EU countries are doing restricting workers from Bulgaria and Romania to work permits.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3513889.stm

A large number other EU countries are now allowing people from the 2004 treaty nations to work unhindered. Those like Germany who have restrictions issued 500,000 work permits between 2004 and 2006 for citizens from these new countries so I think you will find that Europe is actually taking the brunt of the migrant workers. And as these markets open up fully the majority of workers will be going there and not here so you will have a natural erosion of labour (maybe to our detriment).

As for Leo's idea it is reactionary and I would only support it if we can get all spongers, especially the irish ones to be included in the program with a minumum requirement of not being able to return to Ireland for at least 10 years.

Nobody is saying that the immigrants are to blame for the recession or that things wouldn't be bad even if we didn't have as many people in the country. The point people are making is that in a time of recession and job shortage, it doesn't make sense for us to continue to allow tens of thousands of people a year to enter our country and to take jobs that should be going to unemployed people in this country. You can use the standard "Takin our jobs" to try to brush that aside as typical ignorant bigotry but there does come a point where these things stop sounding funny and where the reality is painfully close to the caricature.

You see my counter argument is the unemployed in this country are just going to have to compete for jobs, the Irish did it in England, the US and in Europe we should be able to do it in Ireland. You should have the advantage you are native English speakers. You may have to take a job that you feel is "beneath" you but that's the reality of the situation. The problem is I fear we have gotten lazy and we have forgotten how to work hard. Again I am a bit older than the majority of posters on this forum and I have gone through tough times.

You will also find as things get tough here a lot of the workers from other EU countries will move where the jobs are. I expect to see an awful lot of construction workers on the way to London to help construction for the 2012 Olympics.

galah

amacachi wrote: »

Originally Posted by djpbarry
Besides, nobody can claim social welfare in this country without making a minimum number of PRSI contributions.

Sure about that?

In order to qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit, you must pay Class A, H or P PRSI contributions. Class A is the one paid by most private sector employees. Class H is paid by soldiers, reservists and temporary army nurses, who do not qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit until they have left the army.

you must have 52 weeks PRSI paid since starting work and
you must have 39 weeks PRSI paid or credited in the Relevant Tax Year or
you must have 26 weeks PRSI paid in the Relevant Tax Year and
you must have 26 weeks PRSI paid in the Tax Year prior to the Relevant Tax Year

Source: citizensinformation.ie

djpbarry

amacachi wrote: »

Sure about that?

See above.

dante18 wrote: »

They are there but it would help us if those jobs went to people already on the dole, rather than to new people entering the country.

Tell you what, why don't you head down to your nearest dole queue and see how many takers there are for the job in the local Spar. Let me know how you get on.

dante18 wrote: »

Nobody is saying that the immigrants are to blame for the recession or that things wouldn't be bad even if we didn't have as many people in the country.

Ironically, without the level of immigration we have had over the last number of years, it is quite possible that we would not be experiencing a recession now, because it is very unlikely that we would have experienced the same high levels of economic growth.

gandalf wrote: »

You see my counter argument is the unemployed in this country are just going to have to compete for jobs...

Absolutely; a little competition in the workforce is no bad thing. It gives people an incentive to better themselves, which benefits everyone in the long run. I seem to remember this point being emphasised on Questions & Answers the other night.

sickpuppy

I personally have apain in my hole listening to people say irish people wont do menial jobs especially in construction.
Iworked in construction in Dublin from 2001 to 2007 and in that time there was a huge boom.
Most foreign workers on irish building sites were simply getting paid into the hand not paying tax.The reason foreign guys were employed in mass was you could treat them like slaves get them working saturdays and overtime for a flat rate.
Big companys are the ones to blame i dont blame the workers there only trying to make a better life for themselves but they are really undermining irish workers by working in bad conditions as well.
Ask yourself how easy is it sign on once a month and spend 10 minutes collecting your dole a week? esp if you off the radar and getting paid into the hand
i am sure many irish are at it to in lots of different jobs too.

gandalf

sickpuppy wrote: »

I personally have apain in my hole listening to people say irish people wont do menial jobs especially in construction.
Iworked in construction in Dublin from 2001 to 2007 and in that time there was a huge boom.

I was refering more to jobs in shops, general cleaning jobs etc.

Most foreign workers on irish building sites were simply getting paid into the hand not paying tax.The reason foreign guys were employed in mass was you could treat them like slaves get them working saturdays and overtime for a flat rate.

So I reckon you have reported their employers to the Revenue with regard to the tax evasion and to Health & Safety with regard to the working like slaves bit. If you haven't then tbh I have no sympathy from you or anyone else who gives out like this.

If you see wrongdoing of this type report it.

Big companys are the ones to blame i dont blame the workers there only trying to make a better life for themselves but they are really undermining irish workers by working in bad conditions as well.

I agree with you 100%, but if you don't report them then nothing will be sorted. The laws are already in place to sort out this type of abuse.

Ask yourself how easy is it sign on once a month and spend 10 minutes collecting your dole a week? esp if you off the radar and getting paid into the hand
i am sure many irish are at it to in lots of different jobs too.

Again if you know its happening report the employers who are doing it.

Did you report any of the incidents of under the counter payments that you are alleging here?

dante18

oscarBravo wrote:

Why should they?

Because it will help to reduce unemployment. The fewer people on the dole, the less of our taxes we'll need to spend supporting those people. The more people we have entering the country and looking for jobs, the more difficult it will be for people on the dole to get back into employment. I would thought that would have been obvious.

gandalf wrote:

But we do, we restrict workers from Bulgaria and Romania to a work permit scheme.

So we just need to extend that to the other Eastern European countries as well.

gandalf wrote:

With regard to the other accession countries from 2004 the majority of the EU now allow them unrestricted access to their labour markets as well.

I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was only Ireland, Britain and Sweden who had allowed unrestricted access. Are you sure they have allowed completely unrestricted access like Ireland?

gandalf wrote:

That means they can now move from Ireland (which they are doing now!) to most other EU countries.

Is there any evidence that this is happening?

gandalf wrote:

It would also help if the hard core of people on the dole wanted to work which clearly they don't.

So there was a massive increase in the dole queues over the last few months because tens of thousands of people in this country suddenly became lazy and decided they don't want to work anymore?

gandalf wrote:

We are doing what the majority of EU countries are doing restricting workers from Bulgaria and Romania to work permits.

And we need to do the same with those other Eastern European countries as well. Most of the immigrants are coming from those other eastern European countries so they're the people we'll need to restrict.

gandalf wrote:

A large number other EU countries are now allowing people from the 2004 treaty nations to work unhindered.

I would be surprised if that's true. I'm sure they have relaxed some of the restrictions but I don't think they have granted the same kind of unrestricted access people from those those countries that our government granted.

gandalf wrote:

You see my counter argument is the unemployed in this country are just going to have to compete for jobs, the Irish did it in England, the US and in Europe we should be able to do it in Ireland.

But why make it more difficult for them than it need to be? You still haven't given any reason why we shouldn't restrict immigration. Why is it better in your opinion for us to continue taking in this number of people while we have so many people out of work?

dante18

djpbarry wrote:

Tell you what, why don't you head down to your nearest dole queue and see how many takers there are for the job in the local Spar. Let me know how you get on.

I went down and most of the lazy Irish couldn't be bothered working in a job they considered beneath them. They just want to get their money and get back under the duvet. There were a lot of hard-working Polish who seemed interested though but unfortunately when they tried to apply for the job they found that it had already been taken by a recent arrival.

djpbarry wrote:

Ironically, without the level of immigration we have had over the last number of years, it is quite possible that we would not be experiencing a recession now, because it is very unlikely that we would have experienced the same high levels of economic growth.

I agree completely. I couldn't have said it better myself.

gandalf

dante18 I linked to a BBC article which gives all the details?

18 hmmmmm AH?

oscarBravo

dante18 wrote: »

Because it will help to reduce unemployment. The fewer people on the dole, the less of our taxes we'll need to spend supporting those people. The more people we have entering the country and looking for jobs, the more difficult it will be for people on the dole to get back into employment. I would thought that would have been obvious.

When I employ someone, I don't care whether they're fresh off the dole or fresh off the boat, as long as they're the right person for the job. Immigration will only keep people on the dole if the immigrants are better candidates for jobs than people on the dole.

dante18

gandalf wrote:

dante18 I linked to a BBC article which gives all the details?

And that gives the list of countries without restrictions on the Eastern Europeans. You haven't given a reason why it's better for us to continue taking in this number of immigrants each year though. Why do you think it's not a good idea for us to try to reduce the number of people entering the country at a time when we have over 200 thousand people out of work?

gandalf wrote:

18 hmmmmm AH?

And those just happen to be the initials of the greatest Austrian of all time. What a coincidence!

I picked the 18 at random. I regretted it at the time, thinking that people would think I was only 18 years old. I hadn't considered the neo-nazi significance of the number.

oscarBravo wrote:

When I employ someone, I don't care whether they're fresh off the dole or fresh off the boat, as long as they're the right person for the job. Immigration will only keep people on the dole if the immigrants are better candidates for jobs than people on the dole.

There will always be people in the world better qualified to do a job than people on the dole in Ireland. Does that mean we should open our labour market to the Chinese and the Indians?

There are huge numbers of people on the dole in this country who are more than qualified for the low-skilled jobs available. It would save us money to ease the competition for those jobs and to let them get back into employment. Things are much more difficult for them now that they have to compete with tens of thousands of new arrivals.

djpbarry

dante18 wrote: »

Is there any evidence that this is happening?

Net emigration forecast for next year.

dante18 wrote: »

Why is it better in your opinion for us to continue taking in this number of people while we have so many people out of work?

We're not "continuing taking in this number of people", although I don't know what "this number" is. Immigration is declining, emigration is rising.

dante18 wrote: »

There were a lot of hard-working Polish who seemed interested though but unfortunately when they tried to apply for the job they found that it had already been taken by a recent arrival.

Not to worry; plenty more where that came from.

dante18 wrote: »

I agree completely. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I think you misunderstood my point completely.

dante18 wrote: »

There are huge numbers of people on the dole in this country who are more than qualified for the low-skilled jobs available.

Why then do you suppose they don't take those jobs?

sovtek

dante18 wrote: »

Things are much more difficult for them now that they have to compete with tens of thousands of new arrivals.

Should the tens of thousands of fleeing Irish mentioned in djpbarry's article also be told to stay where they are by the country of their choosen destination?

dante18

djpbarry wrote:

We're not "continuing taking in this number of people", although I don't know what "this number" is.

Did you not read that DSFA page that was linked to near the start of the thread (this one). Over 170 thousand PPS numbers have been issued so far this year. I think that's even higher than last year and we still haven't reached the end of 2008.

djpbarry wrote:

Immigration is declining

Is it? Over 170 thousand PPS numbers issued so far this year. Is that lower than the number issued last year?

djpbarry wrote:

Not to worry; plenty more where that came from.

I know there are. That's why I think we should act now before the problem gets worse.

djpbarry wrote:

I think you misunderstood my point completely.

I understood perfectly what your point was and I agree completely with it. Unless you were trying to argue that it's a good thing that we're in the current recession, in which case I did misunderstand your point.

djpbarry wrote:

Why then do you suppose they don't take those jobs?

How do you know they aren't taking them?

sovtek wrote:

Should the tens of thousands of fleeing Irish mentioned in djpbarry's article also be told to stay where they are by the country of their choosen destination?

Yes, each country should do what it believes to be in it's own national interest.

dante18

dante18 wrote: »

Things are much more difficult for them now that they have to compete with tens of thousands of new arrivals.

Take it up with Government & employers, majority of Irish would not work in most jobs that foreign workers do.

It's the systems fault, not the foreigners.

Villain

oscarBravo wrote: »

When I employ someone, I don't care whether they're fresh off the dole or fresh off the boat, as long as they're the right person for the job. Immigration will only keep people on the dole if the immigrants are better candidates for jobs than people on the dole.

Business people don't look at whats good for the state or even the overall economy, they look at whats good for them and their profits.

One issue I have with people employing Immigrant work seekers over Irish looking for work is the Irish are much more likely to spend their money in this state, i.e. not send it home or save it for when they return home.

Employing immigrants and giving them disposal income which won't be spent in this country while leaving Irish workers on social welfare will have a double negative effect on our economy. If the workers aren't spending their disposal income here it will have a negative effect on the economy, however SME's just aren't seeing the big picture imo

Hobbes

TheDude2008 wrote: »

And here is the link for the amount of immigrants that have applied for pps numbers so far this year...

Just because you apply for a PPS number doesn't mean you get the dole. You need a PPS number to open a bank account.

Hobbes

gandalf wrote: »

But we do, we restrict workers from Bulgaria and Romania to a work permit scheme.

Messier then that. If your married to a non-EU citizen they are entitled to work (or you are allowed to take their tax credits), but if they are Romanian or Bulgarian they aren't.

gandalf

dante18 wrote: »

And that gives the list of countries without restrictions on the Eastern Europeans. You haven't given a reason why it's better for us to continue taking in this number of immigrants each year though. Why do you think it's not a good idea for us to try to reduce the number of people entering the country at a time when we have over 200 thousand people out of work?

Its quite simple really, if I was "Boris" from one of the Eastern EU nations I would prefer to work on the continent where I am within a relatively short bus ride/car journey home than on a god forsaken island further away.

From the linked Irish Times article quoted by djpbarry they are talking about emigration being higher, again you will find the majority of those are probably non nationals and probably EU citizens leaving Ireland to go home or to where jobs are available within the Union. The Irish leaving to work elsewhere can do so because they are citizens of the EU.

Remember Germany still have to lift restrictions and when that happens you can kiss most of the Polish workers goodbye.

There will always be people in the world better qualified to do a job than people on the dole in Ireland. Does that mean we should open our labour market to the Chinese and the Indians?

I think the initial issue is with the Eastern Europeans who make it most of the EU citizens who have migrated here. No one mentioned opening up to the Chinese and Indians? Going sideways?

There are huge numbers of people on the dole in this country who are more than qualified for the low-skilled jobs available. It would save us money to ease the competition for those jobs and to let them get back into employment. Things are much more difficult for them now that they have to compete with tens of thousands of new arrivals.

Hang on, having competition saves money not the other way around that's protectionism and if that scenario comes in then the rest of us pay more for goods and services. Compete or die!

djpbarry

dante18 wrote: »

Is it? Over 170 thousand PPS numbers issued so far this year. Is that lower than the number issued last year?

The number of PPS numbers issued in a given time period is not the same as net immigration over that period; almost 63,000 of those 174,000 PPS numbers were issued to Irish nationals. But anyway, the number of PPS numbers being issued to citizens of the 2004 accession states has been declining since the beginning of 2007. Inward migration totalled 109,500 in 2007; it is expected that this will be down by at least 30% this year, with net emigration of 20,000 forecast for next year.
http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20080623114553/QEC2008Sum.pdf

dante18 wrote: »

I know there are. That's why I think we should act now before the problem gets worse.

I was referring to jobs, not foreigners. In fact, the sandwich shop where I just bought my lunch has been advertising a vacancy for at least 2 weeks now.

dante18 wrote: »

I understood perfectly what your point was and I agree completely with it. Unless you were trying to argue that it's a good thing that we're in the current recession, in which case I did misunderstand your point.

Yes, you did. Immigrants played a big part in fuelling the massive economic growth we had in recent times, but now that we've hit tougher times, you want them all to **** off back where they came from?

dante18 wrote: »

How do you know they aren't taking them?

See above.

Villain wrote: »

Business people don't look at whats good for the state or even the overall economy, they look at whats good for them and their profits.

Which, by extension, is generally good for the economy.

Villain wrote: »

One issue I have with people employing Immigrant work seekers over Irish looking for work is the Irish are much more likely to spend their money in this state, i.e. not send it home or save it for when they return home.

Yeah, you're right. Immigrants don't buy food, pay rent, pay tax or anything like that. Every penny they earn is hoarded under a mattress.

JWAD

dante18 wrote: »

Is it? Over 170 thousand PPS numbers issued so far this year. Is that lower than the number issued last year?

Yes, it is. The very website that the original poster uses will show you that the immigration level is down and that the rate of increase in nationals on live register is higher than that of non-nationals.

Like I said, get the bloodsuckers (national and non-national) to quit cheating the system and/or work. Shouldnt matter where they're from. And nationals are actually easier to trace.