Galway and Antrim accepted into the Leinster Championship

Daysha

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2008/1004/gaa.html?gaa

GAA delegates voted this morning to include Galway and Antrim in a restructured Leinster hurling championship.

Dublin, Wexford and Offaly all spoke against the move at today's Special Congress at Croke Park.

When put to a vote however, approximately 80% of delegates voted in favour.

The new format will be in place for a three-year trial period.

Special Congress also accepted a fourth-tier in the hurling
championship, which will be known as the Lory Meagher Cup.

While the changes in the Hurling Championship were expected, the real surprise came when delegates voted in favour of dramatic changes in the playing rules at senior inter-county level.

The new rules are designed to reduce persistent fouling and will be brought in for an experimental period.

They will be included in the pre-league provincial competitions and the national football and hurling leagues.

Thank god for this. Antrim now get a fairer deal, Galway get the more matches they need, and Leinster is now more competitive for it.

Good to see common sense prevailing

IronMan

At least it might mean a semi-competitive Leinster hurling championship. And we can see if Galway getting the extra games make the difference for them. I think it will, an unbelievable club and underage structure, and no All Ireland for 20 years has to be down to the lack of of tough games early in the season.

john concannon

Great news.Thank God for common sense

Daysha

Interested to hear what these "dramatic changes" with regards persistent fouling is about though...

Pride Fighter

Bad decision, it will ultimately lead to the abolition of Provincial champos and the introduction of 'champions league' pools which will do nothing for the weaker counties. Hopefully this trial phase will fail.

Het-Field

This will increase competition. But only at a lower level. It will meant that the likes of Offaly and Wexford and to a lesser extent Dublin will have two extra teams to comete against for a right to get beaten by Kilkenny, for the time being anyway.

Antrim have never shown themselves to be any great shakes, and I doubt their inclusion will increase competition.

For Galway this will be far more beneficial, as a run of games against, say, Dublin, Wexford, and Kilkenny would set them up.

However, Pride Fighter has a point, and its the first step towards the abolition of the provincial championships.

With the exception of Ulster football and Munster hurling, there is no true competition. Anybody who puts Dublin less then favourites for the Leinster football championship, and Cork or Kerry for Munster is deluding themselves. Ditto Galway or Mayo in Connaught. Would it not just be better to play the Ulster Championship with two provincial finals, and a bit of a championshi in Leinster to decide who gets to play Dublin ?

Diabhal Beag

Whoever can't see the positives from this move really is negative.Who wanted to see Wexford get hammered by Killkenny again.

Antrim will be a good introduction also.

Daysha

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Bad decision, it will ultimately lead to the abolition of Provincial champos and the introduction of 'champions league' pools which will do nothing for the weaker counties. Hopefully this trial phase will fail.

Hang on, you're saying you want to look out for the weaker counties? Then please tell me how one of the weaker counties (Antrim) won't benefit
from this.

Are you aware that last year their Championship consisted of a 26 point defeat to Galway and a 21 point defeat to Waterford?

ShagNastii

Little Shyte wrote: »

Whoever can't see the positives from this move really is negative.Who wanted to see Wexford get hammered by Killkenny again.

Antrim will be a good introduction also.

Really isn't totally earth shattering decision, but I can see why Wexford, Offaly and Dublin would be against it. I believe it will make little difference. As a Wexford fan the above quotes a bit rough........ because seeing Antrim or Galway getting a hiding is sooo much more enteraining?

weebelly

Het-Field wrote: »

... the likes of Offaly and Wexford and to a lesser extent Dublin will have two extra teams to comete against ...

Antrim have never shown themselves to be any great shakes, and I doubt their inclusion will increase competition.

Yeah right, don't kid yourself Het-Field. Antrim have beaten all the Leinster teams you named in competitive games over the last few seasons - so you may as well kick all of them out of the Leinster championship, too.
I don't disagree completely though - I think this is a bit of a pointless exercise. Before the backdoor, the McCarthy cup visited a lot more places than in the equivalent time since. So whatever it was supposed to do for hurling, hasn't worked.
Galway and, particularly Antrim, in underage Leinster competitions would make more sense. I haven't seen if this ruling extends that far yet - can anyone shed any light on that?

weebelly

deise59 wrote: »

Hang on, you're saying you want to look out for the weaker counties? Then please tell me how one of the weaker counties (Antrim) won't benefit
from this.

Are you aware that last year their Championship consisted of a 26 point defeat to Galway and a 21 point defeat to Waterford?

Actually, on a technical point, last years championship included winning the Ulster Hurling Championship.
As far as the Liam McCarthy went - the whole county was demoralised all season by the new system which meant Antrim would have to beat more Munster teams to get to a quarter final than Kilkenny would need to win the All-Ireland. There is nothing like being sent a clear message that no-one is really interested in improving your competitiveness. The irony is - the dropping championship attendances etc - I'd bet that is directly related to the way the system has improved standards in the top two or three counties and just floored them in others.

Flukey

A terrible decision, for reasons I've outlined in other threads in recent days. This does nothing for the other 4 Connacht counties, the other 8 Ulster counties and those in Leinster currently outside the loop. It is in those counties that the problems really lie, but instead of addressing those problems, they are completely ignored. The Hurling Destruction Committee has got its way unfortunately.

Imposter

What does this system do for the teams in Leinster like Westmeath, Carlow, Kildare? They like Antrim were there or thareabouts with Christy Ring or demotion from Liam McCarthy every year.

garbanzo

Common sense really. The Dubs just aint making the breakthrough into the medium-flight. Galway need more big games if they are to be contenders.

Good decision for hurling nationally. The three year reveiw period will leave an "out" clause in case it isn't working out. Pragmatism from the GAA thankfully.

corny

Its good for Galway and any county outside of Leinster really. I don't see the benefit for Dublin, Wexford and Offally though. If the draw permits next year who'd be surprised if it was Kilkenny V Galway in the Leinster final? Its a knock on the head for Dublins chances of making a breakthrough and its depriving Wexford of a Leinster final appearance.

Daysha

corny wrote: »

Its good for Galway and any county outside of Leinster really. I don't see the benefit for Dublin, Wexford and Offally though. If the draw permits next year who'd be surprised if it was Kilkenny V Galway in the Leinster final? Its a knock on the head for Dublins chances of making a breakthrough and its depriving Wexford of a Leinster final appearance.

Just because Galway are now in doesn't mean it'll always be Galway vs Kilkenny in the final. Remember, apart from the champions getting a bye to the semis, it's a completely open draw. So, Galway might have to meet Kilkenny in the semis and we'll then see another Dublin/Wexford semi final, there by giving them just as much possibility of a final berth than last year.

Unfortunately it was always going to be the case that hurling would get less predictable when the qualifier system was opened up to all teams in 2002. I know that means that a lot of people would like to go back to the unpredictability of beforehand when one defeat meant the end of the championship for that team, but would you really like to see only half as much Championship hurling as a result?

I sure as hell wouldn't. It's the best sport in the world and we should be exploring every possibility to showcase it as much as possible without player burnout being an issue. If that means that more teams will have to step up to the mark to break the Kilkenny stronghold, then so be it.

corny

deise59 wrote: »

Just because Galway are now in doesn't mean it'll always be Galway vs Kilkenny in the final. Remember, apart from the champions getting a bye to the semis, it's a completely open draw. So, Galway might have to meet Kilkenny in the semis and we'll then see another Dublin/Wexford semi final, there by giving them just as much possibility of a final berth than last year.

Unfortunately it was always going to be the case that hurling would get less predictable when the qualifier system was opened up to all teams in 2002. I know that means that a lot of people would like to go back to the unpredictability of beforehand when one defeat meant the end of the championship for that team, but would you really like to see only half as much Championship hurling as a result?

I sure as hell wouldn't. It's the best sport in the world and we should be exploring every possibility to showcase it as much as possible without player burnout being an issue. If that means that more teams will have to step up to the mark to break the Kilkenny stronghold, then so be it.

I did say draw permitting.

Its fine to talk about the greater good but if you place any value on getting to a Leinster Final (i do i'm from Dublin) this is an obstacle not a help. And forgive me for being blunt but your standpoint has everything to do with where your from. Its no coincidence Wexford, Dublin and Offally spoke out against it they're the only ones losing out. The majority do rule though.

premierstone

corny wrote: »

I did say draw permitting.

Its fine to talk about the greater good but if you place any value on getting to a Leinster Final (i do i'm from Dublin) this is an obstacle not a help. And forgive me for being blunt but your standpoint has everything to do with where your from. Its no coincidence Wexford, Dublin and Offally spoke out against it they're the only ones losing out. The majority do rule though.

As does yours, this decision is for the greater good of hurling in the long term and common sense has prevailed - surely if you look at the bigger picture you can see the benefit of this for Dublin (they have no chance against KK, nothing has changed there, but would be competitive against Galway and as everyone keeps saying playing against better opposition can only benfeit a county in the long term)

Daysha

Am I right in saying everyone who is against this draw favours the prospect of an open draw instead?

Because if so, you've got to realise an open draw was not on the agenda at the Congress. That will all be discussed eventually, but for now, the GAA were simply given the choice of last years system, or this slightly revised system. And it that circumstance, they made the only call they could make. Could you imagine the uproar if they had voted IN FAVOUR of Antrim going through what they went through this year for another three years?!?

I just cannot understand how anyone would even think that what we've just had this year is better than what we'll have next year

yahoo_moe

deise59 wrote: »

It's the best sport in the world and we should be exploring every possibility to showcase it as much as possible

Exactly - and this didn't happen this year.

Instead, the next three years have been signed away to the only suggestion put in front of Congress - one that's based on the short-term view that Kilkenny will always win the Leinster Championship easily (thank God it's only an experiment), excludes Westmeath from their provincial championship (what's the Christy Ring Cup for if not to show that they're ready for some kind of step up?) and was almost exclusively designed to allow Galway to lose two championship games before a county with great potential but brutal politics at county board level finally fails to win Liam McCarthy for another year.

Agus

deise59 wrote: »

Interested to hear what these "dramatic changes" with regards persistent fouling is about though...

See

http://www.hoganstand.com/Kilkenny/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=100941

Body checks especially after the player has played away the ball, dragging down a player, tripping a player by hand, foot or hurley, neck high tackles, wrestling with a player either on the ground or off the ball and remonstating with a referee in an agressive manner all lead to ayellow card, removal from the game and replacement by a sub.

corny

premierstone wrote: »

As does yours, this decision is for the greater good of hurling in the long term and common sense has prevailed - surely if you look at the bigger picture you can see the benefit of this for Dublin (they have no chance against KK, nothing has changed there, but would be competitive against Galway and as everyone keeps saying playing against better opposition can only benfeit a county in the long term)

I meant "your" in the general sense. I realise my standpoint would change if this didn't affect me and i was from Tipperary say!:)

It does nothing for Dublin Hurling to play and lose consistantly against superior teams. Absolutely nothing. Anyway Dublin are already getting a shot at "better opposition" Wexford twice and Cork last year.

FatherTed

Would Galway or Antrim ever get a Home game in Leinster or are all games for them played in Leinster?

Agus

In 2009 at least, it's expected all Leinster championship games will be played in Leinster.

http://www.ireland.com/sport/Antrim_Galway_set_for_away_days/maxiview.ie?mx_fast_NEWS_gaasports_uuid=62281_irnewsgaa

Flukey

deise59 wrote: »

Am I right in saying everyone who is against this draw favours the prospect of an open draw instead?

No. I am in favour of promoting hurling, not tightening the inner circle. People in this thread have said it is good for hurling nationally. So how exactly does this benefit counties like Mayo, Carlow, Donegal, Kerry, Longford, Tyrone, Leitrim etc.? It doesn't. It has basically slammed the door in their faces and telling them that the Hurling authorities are going to look after the good counties and do nothing for the ones that actually need help. Galway are the only county in Connacht that don't need assistance, yet here they are being handed it. Of all counties in Ulster, Antrim least needs help in terms of Hurling, but it too is being looked after.

It has been asked in this thread if your view on this depends on where you come from and what it will do for Hurling where you are? Well, yes, in my case it does. I am from Ireland, and this is not going to help Hurling in Ireland, which is what I want to see and what most Hurling people want to see, with the notable exception of those who are supposed to be doing things to help promote Hurling. The Hurling Destruction Committee strikes again!

Agus

Flukey wrote: »

No. I am in favour of promoting hurling, not tightening the inner circle. People in this thread have said it is good for hurling nationally. So how exactly does this benefit counties like Mayo, Carlow, Donegal, Kerry, Longford, Tyrone, Leitrim etc.? It doesn't. It has basically slammed the door in their faces and telling them that the Hurling authorities are going to look after the good counties and do nothing for the ones that actually need help. Galway are the only county in Connacht that don't need assistance, yet here they are being handed it. Of all counties in Ulster, Antrim least needs help in terms of Hurling, but it too is being looked after.

It has been asked in this thread if your view on this depends on where you come from and what it will do for Hurling where you are? Well, yes, in my case it does. I am from Ireland, and this is not going to help Hurling in Ireland, which is what I want to see and what most Hurling people want to see, with the notable exception of those who are supposed to be doing things to help promote Hurling. The Hurling Destruction Committee strikes again!

So what system is it that you would prefer to this one if you aren't in favour of an open draw?

Erin Go Brath

I'm very much in favour of Galway and Antrim being accepted into Leinster. I've not much sympathy for Wexford, Dublin, or Offaly tbh as they haven't been able to give Kilkenny a proper game for years now, at least a Galway v Kilkenny Leinster final wouldn'd be the damp squib that the Leinster final has anually become.

yahoo_moe

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

at least a Galway v Kilkenny Leinster final wouldn'd be the damp squib that the Leinster final has anually become.

But I thought it was a proposal designed solely for the good of hurling?

In terms of alternatives, I'd much rather a separation of the provincial and All-Ireland series. This way, the fact that the Munster Championship will almost certainly be more competitive than the Connacht Championship doesn't skew the All-Ireland series or lead to the "Cork lost twice but Galway only lost once" type arguments (ie not comparing like with like). The All-Ireland series would be a clean slate - not necessarily open draw though (league performance, say, and maybe previous championship performances could be taken into account in a seeded system).

I'd even have preferred the proposal that had Galway and Antrim rotating between a Munster 'losers' group and a Leinster 'losers' group each year with a couple of teams qualifying from each group and playing 2 quarter finals against each other for the right to play the Leinster and Munster champions in semi-finals.

But of course no alternatives were presented to Congress - or the time wasn't taken to come up with them.

deise59 wrote:

Could you imagine the uproar if they had voted IN FAVOUR of Antrim going through what they went through this year for another three years?!?

Why would it have to be another three years? Could a number of alternatives not have been drawn up and presented this time next year instead?

premierstone

corny wrote: »

I meant "your" in the general sense. I realise my standpoint would change if this didn't affect me and i was from Tipperary say!:)

It does nothing for Dublin Hurling to play and lose consistantly against superior teams. Absolutely nothing. Anyway Dublin are already getting a shot at "better opposition" Wexford twice and Cork last year.

If its doing nothing for Dublin playing superior teams, your words not mine, then that is what the Chrisy Ring is for, what system would you feel would help Dublin Hurling??

And to those argueing that this does nothing for other connaught and ulster counties the simple truth is you cannot help those who do not want to help themselves i.e. all the counties that were mentioned have always and will always place a greater emphasis (and financial support) on Football

Daysha

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Why would it have to be another three years? Could a number of alternatives not have been drawn up and presented this time next year instead?

This system was voted in on a 3-year period, I guess to stop the chopping a changing we've seen nearly every year or two at this stage.

If this new structure does not work, then I'm all for a change seperating the provencial and All-Ireland series. But it would've been unfair to go straight into an open-draw type Championship without giving the provences one last shot with this new structure the HDC has drawn up.

And like Premier said, there's little that can be done for the weaker counties until many of the football strongholds realise that there's more than one code of sport in the GAA.

Agus

deise59 wrote: »

And like Premier said, there's little that can be done for the weaker counties until many of the football strongholds realise that there's more than one code of sport in the GAA.

Maybe they'll do that when the likes of Kilkenny realise the same?

yahoo_moe

deise59 wrote: »

This system was voted in on a 3-year period, I guess to stop the chopping a changing we've seen nearly every year or two at this stage.

Yes but that doesn't mean that not voting it in would have left Antrim in the same boat as last year for the next 3 years, which is what you said.

Given that the full range of options hadn't been explored by last weekend, I think they should have waited until next year. Instead, the next 3 years have been signed away to a system I don't think is the best solution and which I think is worse than last year's system.

Agus

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Yes but that doesn't mean that not voting it in would have left Antrim in the same boat as last year for the next 3 years, which is what you said.

Given that the full range of options hadn't been explored by last weekend, I think they should have waited until next year. Instead, the next 3 years have been signed away to a system I don't think is the best solution and which I think is worse than last year's system.

In what way do you think it's worse than last year's system?

Daysha

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Yes but that doesn't mean that not voting it in would have left Antrim in the same boat as last year for the next 3 years, which is what you said.

Eh, yes it did.

A no vote would have meant a return to the 2008 system, whereby Antrim would always play Galway first, lose, and then play a Munster 1st round loser, and lose.

That was the alternative. Had it been rejected, it would have been a number of years before a new proposal came before Congress. Nickey Brennan admitted that himself.

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Instead, the next 3 years have been signed away to a system I don't think is the best solution and which I think is worse than last year's system.

Well let me see:
Munster counties: Not affected.
Galway and Antrim: Self-explanitory really.
Kilkenny: Gives them a more competitive Leinster Championship to win
Wexford, Dublin, Laois, Offaly: More teams of their calibre to pit themselves against before the Championship really gets going.

Really don't see where you're coming from tbh

Flukey

Agus wrote: »

So what system is it that you would prefer to this one if you aren't in favour of an open draw?

It is not about systems, but about promoting Hurling. Galway should play in the Connacht Championship. "But the other counties aren't capable of giving them a game!" you'll say. You are absolutely correct. So how does slamming the door in their faces help? What should be done is something to get those counties to the point where they can give Galway a competitive match. Instead of bringing in counties from outside the province to help Leinster, the focus should be on promoting the game within the counties that are already there. Obviously we are not going to get Longford going in as favourites against Kilkenny in a Leinster Hurling Final any time soon, but that is the kind of thing they should be working towards. They are meant to be the Hurling "Development" Committee after all. "It'll take years to get Longford to that standard" you'll say. Yes, again you are absolutely correct, so they better get going on it as soon as possible, hadn't they? Bringing Galway and Antrim into Leinster doesn't begin that process. Although it is the exact kind of thing they should be doing, it isn't even on their agenda.

When you look at it, this really isn't going to make much of a difference to Leinster or Galway. Under the current system over the last few years Galway have ended up playing the likes of Laois or Westmeath or Offaly etc. Under the new system, they'll be doing the exact same thing. They've met Kilkenny in recent years too and in fact were the last county to beat them in the championship and ran them very close on an occasion since that. They didn't have to be in Leinster to do that. Under the "revolutionary change" Galway are going to be coming up against the same counties, so in reality, despite all the talk of new beginnings for them, this doesn't do anything different for Galway and it won't help or make much difference to the other Leinster counties within the fold.

Meanwhile though the likes of Longford are locked outside. Galway and Antrim don't need help. Other counties do, but they are being ignored. We can forget talk of open draws and other such arrangements until there are more counties at a competitive level. An open draw isn't going to help the likes of Longford. It is the structures within the individual counties, not the structure of the championship that needs to be addressed.

What is it that Kilkenny do that make them so good? You identify that, which isn't that hard, and you bring in similar structures to the other counties. Look at any county that has had success in either of our two games, and you'll see the work is done at the ground level. Tyrone only won their first All-Ireland Final in 2003, but they did it by getting the structures right at all levels. It is what all successful counties have in place. So instead of moving Galway and Antrim around, the Hurling Development Committee should be going to counties like Longford and helping them put those kind of structures in place. A bit of that kind of work and a Longford v Kilkenny Leinster Hurling Final might not be so far-fetched after all, assuming of course that Kilkenny could get past Louth in the semi-final!!!

Daysha

A very valid argument Flukey, and there wouldn't be many people that would disagree with you when you say that works needs to be done.

However, everything you've said isn't valid to what we're discussing. This quote stood out:

Flukey wrote: »

It is not about systems, but about promoting Hurling.

Maybe so, but this topic was created to discuss what system should be in place for the next 3 years, not about how to encourage the local Longford under-8 huring team to get better!

I totally agree that the HDC needs to implement plans to work with these weaker counties, but throwing Longford or Louth straight into the mix against Kilkenny in the Leinster Championship right away won't help anyone!

The Chessplayer

Flukey wrote: »

No. I am in favour of promoting hurling, not tightening the inner circle. People in this thread have said it is good for hurling nationally. So how exactly does this benefit counties like Mayo, Carlow, Donegal, Kerry, Longford, Tyrone, Leitrim etc.? It doesn't.

Not sure they even play hurling in Donegal, Longford, Tyrone (are you serious?) and Leitrim... No amount of whinging gets hurling anywhere. There are 3 tiers - FACT. It will take time.

Kerry, Mayo, Wicklow, Carlow, Westmeath, Down etc are all helping themselves. There's a new Christy Ring on the cards anyway. Everyone knows the provincial thing is redundant now. I think a solid Christy Ring would be a good comp, when they drop the provincial lark altogether. Winner plays Laois/Antrim

Imposter

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Kerry, Mayo, Wicklow, Carlow, Westmeath, Down etc are all helping themselves. There's a new Christy Ring on the cards anyway. Everyone knows the provincial thing is redundant now. I think a solid Christy Ring would be a good comp, when they drop the provincial lark altogether. Winner plays Laois/Antrim

I've not seen the proposals (if someone could link to or explain them it would be great!).
I think there needs to be at least 1 promotion and demotion every year from any Christy Ring competition. Allow the 2nd best (from Christy Ring) and 2nd worst (from Liam McCarty) to playoff regarding a 2nd promotion/demotion. Otherwise by allowing only 1 possible promotion/demotion you run the risk of a gulf developing where it is almost impossible to bridge the gap that would exist between the 2 competitions.

Same goes between all other lower tier competitions too.

yahoo_moe

deise59 wrote: »

Had it been rejected, it would have been a number of years before a new proposal came before Congress. Nickey Brennan admitted that himself.

You really think a new proposal wouldn't have been in place by this time next year? Fair enough - I do.

Really don't see where you're coming from tbh

Obviously not.

Agus wrote:

In what way do you think it's worse than last year's system?

I've explained this in different places already but in short: I think it wrongly sets up the championship based on the current strength of Kilkenny and the skewed nature of hurling in Connacht, devalues the Ulster Championship (which Antrim only won by 5 points last year) greatly, unfairly excludes Westmeath from the Leinster Championship despite their consistently good performances in the Ring Cup in recent years and most likely makes it harder for Dublin/Wexford/Offaly to get the QF spot that this year's structure gave the Leinster runners-up.

The Chessplayer wrote:

Not sure they even play hurling in Donegal

The team that was in the Rackard Cup final a couple of years ago would probably disagree.

Daysha

yahoo_moe wrote: »

I think it wrongly sets up the championship based on the current strength of Kilkenny and the skewed nature of hurling in Connacht

What do you mean by "wrong" exactly? Do you really think the 2008 system is better because it ignores the fact that Kilkenny are steamrolling Leinster and Galway still don't have a provence to play in? Something had to be done, nearly everybody knew that.

devalues the Ulster Championship (which Antrim only won by 5 points last year) greatly

Antrim will still be competing in Ulster, so that's unaffected.

unfairly excludes Westmeath from the Leinster Championship despite their consistently good performances in the Ring Cup in recent years

I agree with you to a point on this, this should be accomodated in some way. But Antrim were in a far worse situation. Westmeath will still improve, they'll still have competitive matches all year round, but Antrim were in complete limbo. When the system is reviewed in 3 years and no doubt Westmeath will have gotten even better by then, then expanding the Championship to 14 teams is a distinct possibility.

and most likely makes it harder for Dublin/Wexford/Offaly to get the QF spot that this year's structure gave the Leinster runners-up.

So a more challenging Championship with extra competitiveness = A worser Championship? Those Leinster teams you named still don't have to do as much work as Munster counties to reach an AI quarter final. I've no sympathy with them having the possible extra hurdle of Antrim and Galway to overcome. It'll only benefit them.

Agus

yahoo_moe wrote: »

I've explained this in different places already but in short: I think it wrongly sets up the championship based on the current strength of Kilkenny and the skewed nature of hurling in Connacht, devalues the Ulster Championship (which Antrim only won by 5 points last year) greatly, unfairly excludes Westmeath from the Leinster Championship despite their consistently good performances in the Ring Cup in recent years and most likely makes it harder for Dublin/Wexford/Offaly to get the QF spot that this year's structure gave the Leinster runners-up.

Why does it matter if the current strength of Kilkenny and skewed nature of Connacht have a bearing on the format? How does it devalue the Ulster Championship given that the winning team did not get into the AI previously any more than now - Antrim were automaticallly in the McCarthy Cup? I agree about Westmeath, but it would have been hard to justify giving them another special invitation into Leinster ahead of Carlow who won the Ring Cup this year beating them in the final - both would have to be invited It does make it harder for Dub/Off/Wex but surely it being so much easier for them to reach a quarter than it was for a Munster team once they avoided Kilkenny in the semi drasw wasn't necessarily a good thing?

The new format is not ideal, but I don't agree that it's worse than last year.

yahoo_moe

deise59 wrote: »

What do you mean by "wrong" exactly?

I think it's wrong because I don't think the Championship set-up should be affected by the strength of the current Kilkenny team - it's too temporary a measure. That should only be a factor in a seeded Championship - but the GAA refuses to do away with the provincial championships (or separate the provincial and All-Ireland series) as you'd have to for that system. So I think it's wrong.

Antrim will still be competing in Ulster, so that's unaffected.

But if someone else had won Ulster last year, wouldn't both Antrim and, say, Down have been in the All-Ireland series? I'm not fully up on this though so I could be wrong.

So a more challenging Championship with extra competitiveness = A worser Championship?

That's not what I said - I just don't think the GAA should maintain the charade of the provincial championships if this is the result. Basically, they've taken a team that's currently stronger than Dublin/Wexford/Offaly and lumped them into what is supposedly a Leinster Championship - if the GAA wants to smooth out the regional imbalances in hurling, then why not just do away with the Munster and Leinster championships completely?

To me, it's just a half-arsed solution - it's no longer a geographical Championship but it's not a carefully worked-out seeded system either.

Flukey

Deise59 wrote:

I totally agree that the HDC needs to implement plans to work with these weaker counties, but throwing Longford or Louth straight into the mix against Kilkenny in the Leinster Championship right away won't help anyone!

Neither does throwing Antrim and Galway in. I'm not saying that the likes of Longford should have been in tonight's draw, but there are some counties that should be in it. Carlow and Westmeath should definitely have been in it. Kildare's hurling is coming on nicely and there is good hurling in Meath and Wicklow too. The Leinster council should be looking at bringing those counties in, not Galway and Antrim, and then looking at doing something positive for the others.

On top of that we had the flaw which was guaranteeing Kilkenny a bye into the semi-final beforehand. They are making it easier for Kilkenny. If some county deserved a bye into the semi-final, then Kilkenny should surely have been bottom of the list. One of the reasons for bringing in Galway, we were told, was to make things harder for Kilkenny. The draw should then have been open to a possibility of a Kilkenny v Galway quarter final. Bringing in a harder team for them to play and then automatically giving them, and only them, a bye into the semi-final is a bit counter-productive. People have said in the thread that is was common sense to bring Galway and Antrim into Leinster. It certainly wasn't common sense guaranteeing Kilkenny a place in the semi-fnal before the draw began. I don't favour a national open-draw, but within each province there certainly should be. The provincial championships should be open to any county in their province to play in it. Locking the door on Westmeath is wrong. If Westmeath, or even Longford, want to play in the Leinster Championship then they should be allowed to. Keep the McCarthy, Ring and Rackard Cups, but let the counties themselves decide which one they want to compete in, and also decide if they want to compete in their provincial championships. Obviously Donegal wouldn't be opting to play for the McCarthy Cup, but if they wanted to do so, they should be allowed to. If Westmeath want to play in the Leinster Championship then they should be allowed to. Another bit of genius of the Hurling "Destruction" Committee efforts to improve things in Leinster is allowing Antrim and Galway in from outside, yet excluding Westmeath.

TheChessPlayer wrote:

Not sure they even play hurling in Donegal, Longford, Tyrone (are you serious?) and Leitrim... No amount of whinging gets hurling anywhere. There are 3 tiers - FACT. It will take time.

They do play hurling in all of those counties. 4th division quality, yes, but they play hurling in all of them. Do you think there is even one player on any of those county teams that would not like to win an All-Ireland medal and see the McCarthy Cup parading through his home town? It is not just little boys in counties like Kilkenny or Cork that are knocking a sliothar around their gardens dreaming of one day winning an All-Ireland. They do it in all 32 counties. You are right to say that it will take time, but as I said in my last post, then they should be starting work on it now, not worrying about counties with a comparatively higher standard like Galway and Antrim. Doing something for the weakest should have been their priority from day one.

The objective should be to get Antrim and Galway playing in their own provinces. The way to solve the Antim/Galway problem is to deal with the weaker counties and get them improving. In both provinces there are counties that are not that far behind them. Antrim certainly aren't much further ahead than several of the rest in Ulster. As I also said in my last post, Galway and Antrim aren't the problem, the other counties are. There are indeed 3 tiers, yet the thing they are paying most attention to is two counties in the top tier. If they are meant to be a "Development" committee, then their work should surely be starting in the bottom tier. The only concern they should have with the top tier is trying to get counties from the lower tiers into it.

yahoo_moe wrote:

But if someone else had won Ulster last year, wouldn't both Antrim and, say, Down have been in the All-Ireland series? I'm not fully up on this though so I could be wrong.

No you are absolutely correct. Antrim were guaranteed a place in the All-Ireland series, no matter what happened. Not only that, while they did at least have a provincial championship it was full of teams getting byes into rounds. It should be done exactly like the Ulster Football Championship is. It was made easy for Antrim to win it as they had a bye, along with Down, into the semi-final. So you had the situation where for Cavan to get to the Ulster Final, they would have had to have won 4 matches, and beat Antrim in the semi-final. Antrim or Down only had to win one and they were kept apart in their semi-finals. A draw based on the Ulster Football structure, would have given Cavan and others a chance to get to an Ulster Final, even if they had little prospect of winning it.

Agus wrote:

How does it devalue the Ulster Championship given that the winning team did not get into the AI previously any more than now

Wrong. Antrim, Derry and Down have all won Ulster in recent years and played in Croke Park against some of the big guns, and played very well it might be said. They were not the walkovers people expected. In fact we came very close to a shock or two. But had Down or Derry won Ulster this year, as they could well have done, Antrim were still guaranteed their place for the McCarthy Cup, while the Ulster winners would find their championship season at an end. That devalues the Ulster Championship.

Everywhere you look, despite there being a thing called the Hurling Development Committee, it is the weaker counties that are getting the raw deals. Everything is stacked against them. Counties like Westmeath, with potential to give some of the other counties a good run, are told they can't play. Weak counties in Ulster are given an almost impossible task of reaching an Ulster Final, which would be simpler with a proper draw, and the winners weren't guaranteed anything more than a trophy, even if they hammered Antrim. At least they have a provincial championship to play in, unlike Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo and Sligo. I really do believe they should be called the Hurling Destruction Committee, because they certainly are doing an excellent job at that.

Agus

Flukey wrote: »

Wrong. Antrim, Derry and Down have all won Ulster in recent years and played in Croke Park against some of the big guns, and played very well it might be said. They were not the walkovers people expected. In fact we came very close to a shock or two. But had Down or Derry won Ulster this year, as they could well have done, Antrim were still guaranteed their place for the McCarthy Cup, while the Ulster winners would find their championship season at an end. That devalues the Ulster Championship.
.

I think you misunderstand. I was explaining that Antrim were guaranteed their place in the AI and therefore Down, Derry etc would not get through even if they won Ulster, and that this system was in place for 2008, so the Ulster championship is not devalued between 2008 and 2009, which an earlier post claimed it was

Agus

yahoo_moe wrote: »

But if someone else had won Ulster last year, wouldn't both Antrim and, say, Down have been in the All-Ireland series? I'm not fully up on this though so I could be wrong.

Flukey wrote: »

No you are absolutely correct.

No, I'm afraid yahoo moe is wrong here. If Down had won the Ulster Championship, they would not have been in the All-Ireland series. The Ulster championship had no bearing on which team played in which tier.

Agus

Flukey wrote: »

In both provinces there are counties that are not that far behind them.
.

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no question but that there is a substantial gap between Galway and any other Connacht team.

Pride Fighter

Agus wrote: »

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no question but that there is a substantial gap between Galway and any other Connacht team.

Mayo lost to Westmeath in the Ring cup semi final by a last minute goal. Mayo could give Galway a game. It would probably be more competitive than this years AI hurling final as well.

yahoo_moe

Agus wrote: »

I think you misunderstand. I was explaining that Antrim were guaranteed their place in the AI and therefore Down, Derry etc would not get through even if they won Ulster, and that this system was in place for 2008, so the Ulster championship is not devalued between 2008 and 2009, which an earlier post claimed it was

Fair enough - thought I'd seen somewhere that an allowance would have been made for an Ulster winner that wasn't Antrim but obviously not. I stand corrected (although obviously the Ulster Championship is still greatly devalued - just not compared to last year).

premierstone

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Mayo lost to Westmeath in the Ring cup semi final by a last minute goal. Mayo could give Galway a game. It would probably be more competitive than this years AI hurling final as well.

You are seriously deluded or trolling if you really think this is true, this is on a par with saying that Killkenny would give Tyrone a game in Football

Jugs82

As an Offaly man living in Galway, im in two minds about all of this..

Offaly hurling IMO is on the verge of a breakthrough, we gave KK a good tough 1st half this year & last before KK upped a gear both times - just like they do with every other team, id like to point out - beat last year All-Ireland Finalists (Limerick), and gave this year Finalists (Waterford) a tough, close match.

My point is, that along with Wexford and Dublin over the next few years, Leinster is not as dead as everybody is so willing to believe. IMO, if Kilkenny were in Munster, they'd walk it every year as well, they are that good - the so-called weaker Leinster teams are still able to put it up to any of the Munster teams along with Galway

While, i am in favour of Galway getting a better, fairer deal - i dont believe that a revamped Leinster SHC is the right option - more of a quick fix IMO

Agus

premierstone wrote: »

You are seriously deluded or trolling if you really think this is true, this is on a par with saying that Killkenny would give Tyrone a game in Football

I'm afraid Flukey and Pride Fighter don't understand how much of a gap there is between a good McCarthy Cup team and a good Ring Cup team. For instance, look at the gap there is between Galway and Laois, and even Laois beat the Ring Cup champions fairly comfortably in this year's play-off.