Operation Red Wing, Milslim game, Bank holiday monday the 27th.

hrta

Operation Red Wing

The SEAL team, led by Lt. Michael P. Murphy and consisting of petty officers Matthew Axelson, Danny Dietz and Marcus Luttrell, was on a mission to capture Ahmad Shah (nom de guerre Mohammad Ismail), a key Taliban leader, west of Asadabad. After an initially successful infiltration, local goat herders stumbled upon the SEALs' hiding place. The SEALs decided to let them go rather than kill them, and the herders alerted local Taliban forces. They were surrounded by the Taliban and a firefight ensued.

Even though they were pinned down, Lt. Murphy broke cover long enough to make a call to his base for back-up. The call was placed on a cell phone, due to the fact that the radio reception was very bad on that part of the mountain, and the base could not receive their radio transmission. In the process of placing this call, he was shot in the stomach and back but he still managed to complete the call. The three remaining SEALs continued to fight off the Taliban, gravely wounded, protecting each other as their position was pushed back to lower ground. After two hours of fighting and killing dozens of Taliban fighters each, only Luttrell remained alive.

In response to the call from Murphy to Bagram Air Base, two MH-47 Chinook helicopter's, four UH-60 Blackhawks and two AH-64D Longbows attempted to come to their rescue to provide extraction in the mountains of Kunar province, Afghanistan. Crew from the escort attack helicopters praised the SEALs on the ground as putting up outstanding resistance, calling it "an unbelievable firefight." One of the Chinook helicopter's carrying eight US Navy SEALs and eight Nightstalkers - members of the Army's elite 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment was shot down by what is believed to have been a rocket propelled grenade shot through the open rear ramp killing all sixteen on board.


Rules of engagement:

This will be a medcaps game only.

The ROE take two forms: Actions a soldier may take without consulting a higher authority, unless explicitly forbidden (sometimes called 'command by negation') and second, actions that may only be taken if explicitly ordered by a higher authority (sometimes called 'positive command'). Also, in the event that there is a clear and present danger.

In addition to a typically large set of standing orders, military personnel will be given additional rules of engagement before performing any mission or military operation. These can cover circumstances such as how to retaliate after an attack, how to treat captured targets, which territories the soldier is bound to fight into, and how the force should be used during the operation.


The ROE are extremely important:

They provide a consistent, understandable and repeatable standard on how forces act. Typically they are carefully thought out in detail well in advance of an engagement and may cover a number of scenarios, with different rules for each.


Rules of Engagement of US Soldiers.

(U) US forces will protect themselves from threats of death or serious bodily harm. Deadly force may be used to defend your life, the life of another US soldier, or the life of persons in areas under US control. You are authorized to use deadly force in self-defense when--

(U) You are fired upon.

(U) Armed elements, mobs, and/or rioters threaten human life.

(U) There is a clear demonstration of hostile intent in your presence.

(U) Hostile intent of opposing forces can be determined by unit leaders or individual soldiers if their leaders are not present. Hostile intent is the threat of imminent use of force against US forces or other persons in those areas under the control of US forces. Factors you may consider include--

(U) Weapons: Are they present? What types?

(U) Size of the opposing force.

(U) If weapons are present, the manner in which they are displayed; that is, are they being aimed? Are the weapons part of a firing position?

(U) How did the opposing force respond to the US forces?

(U) How does the force act toward unarmed civilians?


Rules of Engagement for Taliban forces:

If there is a clear demonstration of hostile intent in your presence against US forces, you will be fired on.

1 As in, firing at US forces.

2 Pointing your gun at US forces.

3 Setting up a fire base.

4 Setting up boby traps.


The team numbers will set up as 1/3 us forces, taliban forces 2/3, of the numbers on the day.

hrta

Sorry to the mods, i tryed to post this in the site's thread but it wont let me post new threads.

Paul.

Dr_Pepper

The Hawks are ready to be the US forces.

Cuddlesworth

How are you going to have a mil-sim game in a area the size of HRTA? Even with a mission, mid-caps and engagement rules I can't see anything lasting longer then a hour either way. You just don't have the space for proper manoeuvring and recon.

Rew

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

How are you going to have a mil-sim game in a area the size of HRTA? Even with a mission, mid-caps and engagement rules I can't see anything lasting longer then a hour either way. You just don't have the space for proper manoeuvring and recon.

Thats for the site operatior to worry about, this thread is for signing up and general questions about partipating.

hrta

it's how you play the game, not how big the site is, i have trained on real MOD site's that where only 1/3 the size of hrta. the ball is with the Taliban forces how long they want to play out the game.

Operation Red Wing, happed in area no bigger than 300 meters by 400 meters in the end,
and hrta is 205 meters by 470 meters.

TheDoc

unless you have been to a HRTA milsim game id refrain from making prejudgements.

Not to sound like a fanboi, but I was present at the last milsim game, and although alot of people arrived not knowing it was milsim, it was an excellent day. And completely contrare to what happens saturday or sunday, there was great communication, great teamwork, people being cautous with ammoand it made for a great days gaming.

Although the field can be small ( bear in mind its bigger then fingal) certain objectives can take some time to complete.

I for one and definitly in and it should be great fun.

Cuddlesworth

Rew wrote: »

That's for the site operator to worry about, this thread is for signing up and general questions about participating.

In some ways it is a question about participating, I'm curious as to how a milsim event will work in HRTA. I would prefer to ask the question then turn up on the day and be pissed off about it.

hrta wrote: »

it's how you play the game, not how big the site is, i have trained on real MOD site's that where only 1/3 the size of hrta. the ball is with the Taliban forces how long they want to play out the game.

MOD sites tend to be much better spec'd out then any airsoft site in Ireland by a long shot. A MOD site 1/3 the size of HRTA. Not a great comparison.

hrta wrote: »

Operation Red Wing, happend in area no bigger than 300 meters by 400 meters in the end,
and hrta is 205 meters by 470 meters.

Again not a great comparison. Afghani mountain sides tend to be fairly great for the type of terrain for defensive positions.


I'm not trying to put down Paul or the HRTA. I just want to know how the milsim game will play out on a site where you can monitor all movements and actions of any player from close to every position? How can you achieve an objective if everybody knows exactly what you are doing at all times?

Or is it going to be like a normal airsoft day with mid-caps for all?


Can somebody give me a run down of the last game?

Hivemind187

Paul,

Whats the story with support guns like the M249? Midcap mags (which would be real caps) or box mags with reduced fills?

TheDoc

cuddlesworth, to be honest, what is available to be used, was used well.

I particulary liked the second milsim part of the day, where dex and paul were marshalling, but were called upon to drop artillery etc.

You have to remember we are restricted on pyros, landscape etc etc.

So paul works with what he has, and i think works well. I could see a great milsim type game run at night there, the floodlights really ad a great dimension, it was like moving around a prison camp, the shadows being cast. That was only a wednesday game though.

The last milsim day, was essentially skirmish with midcaps, but people got into the mood and it worked out well. There wasnt restriction on camo etc etc.

I'm sure more details will come as the day closens. I for example would gladly volunteer to go taliban side and wear just my regular civiliian clothing etc.

Its basically not a deathmatch skirmish, which ill always lend my support too

But for something like this, its how realistic and involved the players want to make it, while playing it.

This isnt phoenix rising on an MOD base, but its a good start, and a nice different from hte usual weekend skirmishing.

NakedHedgehog

I'm in!
I hope you didn't just ruin the ending of "Lone Survivor" for me, Paul :P

Cuddlesworth:
I've played really good Mil-Sim games in far smaller locations than that.
MilSim doesn't need a huge site.

Realistic objectives, realistic ammo limits and realistic behaviour from the players is what makes it MilSim.

For example, I played one of the best MilSim games I've ever attended on a small farm in England - it's all about keeping things going. Linking objectives together and having a background story that will allow players to immerse themselves in.

hrta

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Paul,

Whats the story with support guns like the M249? Midcap mags (which would be real caps) or box mags with reduced fills?

it will be 500 rounds per: fill hive
and 30 rounds per fill for midcaps, yes 30 rounds only.

Tommyboy71

Count me in. Sounds good.

NakedHedgehog

Any limit on number of mags?

hrta

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

How are you going to have a mil-sim game in a area the size of HRTA? Even with a mission, mid-caps and engagement rules I can't see anything lasting longer then a hour either way. You just don't have the space for proper manoeuvring and recon.

Sorry Cuddlesworth but that is not a question about participating, thats telling be i cant run any thing milslim.

come back next year year, when i run some milslim games at some MOD site's,
and then you can have a dig at me.
Paul.

hrta

NakedHedgehog wrote: »

Any limit on number of mags?

12 for US forces.

Taliban forces will have to hide there mags and guns around the site.

Cuddlesworth

hrta wrote: »

Sorry Cuddlesworth but that is not a question about participating, thats telling be i cant run any thing milslim.

come back next year year, when i run some milslim games at some MOD site's,
and then you can have a dig at me.
Paul.

The question,

"How are you going to have a mil-sim game in a area the size of HRTA?"

The reasons why I don't see it as a viable site for milsim.

"Even with a mission, mid-caps and engagement rules I can't see anything lasting longer then a hour either way. You just don't have the space for proper manoeuvring and recon."

And I never said I wasn't going Paul. I've developed a keen interest in Milsim recently to the bereavement of normal airsoft. I'm just not interested in a Skirmish with reduced mag sizes. I can't see it being the same as the adrenaline pumping Milsim I have experienced. I want the whole deal, role-playing, tactics, assaults, a actual purpose and sense of loss when shot rather then a re-spawn. Something that will draw me in for the day, help me to believe something its not.


I want to find out how this will be achieved and so far I have heard good things about the last game. It might not be what I expect, but If it somes close I would be happy.

TheDoc

here mate i know your trying to find out info, but can you jsut relax for a min take a break or something...your going to get yourself infracted or this thread locked or something..

I'm sure people who were present at the previous events can brief you im in work at the moment so im not gonig into detail...

hrta

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

The question,

"How are you going to have a mil-sim game in a area the size of HRTA?"

The reasons why I don't see it as a viable site for milsim.

"Even with a mission, mid-caps and engagement rules I can't see anything lasting longer then a hour either way. You just don't have the space for proper manoeuvring and recon."

And I never said I wasn't going Paul. I've developed a keen interest in Milsim recently to the bereavement of normal airsoft. I'm just not interested in a Skirmish with reduced mag sizes. I can't see it being the same as the adrenaline pumping Milsim I have experienced. I want the whole deal, role-playing, tactics, assaults, a actual purpose and sense of loss when shot rather then a re-spawn. Something that will draw me in for the day, help me to believe something its not.


I want to find out how this will be achieved and so far I have heard good things about the last game. It might not be what I expect, but If it somes close I would be happy.

I know i dont have the size to play big milslim games, but i can put in some harder rule's to make up for this, the thing with milslim games in ireland is most have not played them or have the gear to play them, so i have to work round this, but the interest is out there and we are working on this, this game will be very hard as there is ROE for US forces, the Taliban forces have rule of the field if they play it right, they can hold for the day, but get it wrong and they can be gone in an hour.

Fiach Dubh

The Stray Dogs will be there Paul. I have a feeling this is going to be even better then the last one.

hrta

Rember US forces, can only fire If guns are present, the manner in which they are displayed; that is, are they being aimed or fired at you.

so Taliban forces rember this rule, if you not firing at, or pointing your guns at US forces you can not be fired at.

hrta

we had a go at this one wednesday night and it was good, but the rules are very hard to fallow, so i can see some mix up's with the frist game of the day but bear with us as this is a great game when the rule's are fallowed.

Stercus Accidit

One of these days we are going to have to have a cold war scenario, US and russian forces because I'm always being made a bloody terrorist

Or something involving spetsnaz.


Sounds like its going to be good, I'll have to make sure I go.

Turncoat

I only have two 300 rounds high cap magazines and one 190 round magazine. Would I be allowed to join the event?

Stercus Accidit

Get some cheap m4 mids, eirsoft have them afaik.

I'm guessing m4 anyway

Fallschirmjager

hahahaha...i like the cannot fire unless aimed or fired upon ...jeasus what a friggen bummer, i just know thats going to be tough!! thats a really nice touch...30 rounds*12 will definitely make it very very tricky...most excellent...

NakedDex

The big thing about this type of milsim game is the ROE. Technically speaking, because of the proper ROE being employed, you might not be able to fire at an enemy who is casually walking within spitting distance of you. Used properly, this ability for the Taliban forces to move freely throughout the site without harassment (so long as they keep their rifle slung down or not carried at all) can be a huge advantage in the acquisition of intel about the US forces placement, weak spots, etc.
I've been to about two dozen or so milsim games/events and I know from experience that it's not the square footage of the place that makes the game, it's the willingness of the people to participate and follow the ROE as it's such an integral part of the game. These games are less about twitchy triggers and more about sharp perceptions.

Paul, couple of questions.
The M249 thing that Hive was asking earlier. The ammo limit on the support gun is 500 rounds, but could that be broken up into 5x 100 round midcaps rather than filling a box mag with 500 rounds? The real M249, as you know, has the option of 100 round box mags, so this would be the equivalent of giving it a real cap mag anyway.

What are the ammo limits for pistols with double stack or single stack magazines and how many spares can be carried?

Does the ammo limit divide per man or per aeg? For example, if a player took a long rifle with 90 rounds over 3 mags, could they take another rifle/smg and use up the remaining 270 rounds of their allotment on mags for it or must they use the allotment on a single rifle only.
I ask because some people like to take shotguns or compact smg's for room clearance if their primary is a long (for example, an M14).

OzCam

1. Paul, great idea.

2. I'm in, if I can get midcaps in time (or play sniper/DM).

3. For the information of any doubters, "engagement" is defined in the US military as "someone pointing a gun at you". It's not necessary to receive fire. So using your rifle scope to get a better look at US forces is a very bad idea. ROE is 100% realistic in this case.

4. Can we get a schedule when you're ready. I'm guessing it'll be dark towards the end.

Sod'o swords

We're pretty much finished setting up our team, and seeming how we're based on Opfor(mainly because we're too cheap to buy proper camo) we'll happily go Taliban!

but unfortunately I won't be in the country..
/Crys....

gerrowadat

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

The question,

"How are you going to have a mil-sim game in a area the size of HRTA?"

The reasons why I don't see it as a viable site for milsim.

"Even with a mission, mid-caps and engagement rules I can't see anything lasting longer then a hour either way. You just don't have the space for proper manoeuvring and recon."

And I never said I wasn't going Paul. I've developed a keen interest in Milsim recently to the bereavement of normal airsoft. I'm just not interested in a Skirmish with reduced mag sizes. I can't see it being the same as the adrenaline pumping Milsim I have experienced. I want the whole deal, role-playing, tactics, assaults, a actual purpose and sense of loss when shot rather then a re-spawn. Something that will draw me in for the day, help me to believe something its not.


I want to find out how this will be achieved and so far I have heard good things about the last game. It might not be what I expect, but If it somes close I would be happy.

Blah blah. If you think it'll be **** don't go. Simple as.

Cuddlesworth

gerrowadat wrote: »

Blah blah. If you think it'll be **** don't go. Simple as.

You should take up a debate team. Your abilty to completley stupify my post is overwhealming.

gerrowadat

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You should take up a debate team. Your abilty to completley stupify my post is overwhealming.

I wouldn't say so, it's not like you made it particularly hard.

If you reckon the site mightn't be good for milsim, grand. Don't derail the thread with it, just decide what you want to do and move on. You're not doing anything constructive by pointing out your doubts that it'll be a successful event.

kevteljeur

Lads, calm down.

It will be good, Cuddlesworth - Paul ran a game like this a few months back and whether it works or fails depends entirely on the players understanding the game and sticking to the rules as laid out. It actually has a lot of elements of roleplay in it and it won't be a game for 'spray and pray' merchants. The site is well able for it (Paul has been expanding it recently with a lot of extra structures too), it actually needs a confined space to work well. Players being honest will be a big thing in this, as well as being able to keep a level head. In short, if you want human interaction with your airsoft, or milsim, then this is a great game. If you want a regular skirmish, this is isn't. But I'd recommend trying it, at least.

Paul, if I know I'm free I'll definitely be there, I can't wait. I'll confirm asap.

Also, I'd suggest maybe trying to get some genuine civilians for the day? Friends or family who would like to spectate up close sans guns (but with all the required safety kit of course) and generally get in the way.

Dr_Pepper

NakedDex wrote: »

because of the proper ROE being employed, you might not be able to fire at an enemy who is casually walking within spitting distance of you. ....in the acquisition of intel about the US forces placement, weak spots, etc.

Yah whats all well an good but even with ROE if some enemy is within in walking distance the US forces would render him unconscious without firing a shot.
Its not like we will be allowed to tie ppl up.

NakedDex

Disabling a person, be they known enemy or not, qualifies as an engagement so it's outside the rules (without a special order/warrant). They must be seen as a threat to become a viable target.

There was a cell leader in Basra, can't think of his name, who ran a bombing campaign for months in the city using ieds with overwatch from snipers, assault squads and secondary devices. They were specifically targetting the IEDD engineers who came to disarm the explosives. The IEDD in question knew who it was that was in charge, the guy even came down to the sites sometimes to watch the disposal crew. There were even angry words exchanged between them at one point. However, the guy never directly (and provably) acted aggresively or threateningly to the soldiers so they couldn't legally engage him, nor his pals, who were standing around taking notes on how the IED disposer operated so they could mod their bombs to be more effective next time.

The opfor in the middle east use the ROE of allied forces as a force balancer. No point in having all the big guns if you haven't got clearance to fire them. Until it's too late.

Dr_Pepper

Well then if there is no objective for the US wtf is the mission?

US: "Oh look they have a bomb that we want. Lets take it."
TA: "Eh no."
US pick up the bomb and leave.

or.

US: "Oh look they have a bomb that we want. Lets take it."
TA: "Eh no."
US go to pick it up.
TA Stop them by getting in the way
US get frisky and pushy.

Eventually someone will get punched or shot. So ROE is useless once there is an objective. Or am i missing something here.

Dr_Pepper

Also HRTA, whats the start and end time to the game?

NakedDex

There is a US objective in the game, the roe are just there as part of the game rules. I was just retelling that story as an example of how these roe hamper the elimination of known enemy who aren't posing direct threats in the real world. The same methods of passive harassment are usable in the milsim game.

kevteljeur

NakedDex wrote: »

There is a US objective in the game, the roe are just there as part of the game rules. I was just retelling that story as an example of how these roe hamper the elimination of known enemy who aren't posing direct threats in the real world. The same methods of passive harassment are usable in the milsim game.

+1.

The point is, that in every game we play normally, you can just blast at everyone. In this case just like in the real thing you can't unless they are definitely targetting you. But the objectives still need to be achieved. I think it's a great idea, and maybe we can work some roleplay into this.

Human interaction is the biggest thing missing from airsoft, usually. You can be the best shot around, and still lose by losing your cool facing your enemies. This will be far more like 'The Unit' than COD, and that can't be a bad thing.

hrta

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

Well then if there is no objective for the US wtf is the mission?

US: "Oh look they have a bomb that we want. Lets take it."
TA: "Eh no."
US pick up the bomb and leave.

or.

US: "Oh look they have a bomb that we want. Lets take it."
TA: "Eh no."
US go to pick it up.
TA Stop them by getting in the way
US get frisky and pushy.

Eventually someone will get punched or shot. So ROE is useless once there is an objective. Or am i missing something here.

mission to capture Ahmad Shah (nom de guerre Mohammad Ismail), a key Taliban leader.


game from 10.30 to 5.30

Ayrtonf7

Prices and does it require booking ??

hrta

Ayrtonf7 wrote: »

Prices and does it require booking ??

the cost will be € 20 for the day, and if people could post who is going, it would help, i'll post up the rules as soon as i get them done, and how hard would poeple like this to be, and would poeple be all right with been taking as POW's and been searched please post about this so i can do up the rules for this.

so far there wil be 2 INTERNATIONAL BORDERS, and 2 BORDER CROSSING only.

NakedHedgehog

Personally would not have a problem being taken POW and/or searched.
Question on the hit rules:

Will it be a "hit and back to respawn" ruleset or will you be doing a medic type rule set. I think medic ruleset would work well here.

kdouglas

List of attendees as I see it so far in the thread, copy and add yourself if you plan to go:

The Hawks
Stray Dogs
Doc
NakedHedgehog
Tommyboy
OzCam
kevteljeur
kdouglas



Also, <mod mode> Running of the event is up to the site owner, if you have a problem with the running, contact that person directly, dont pollute the thread</mod mode>

senordingdong

I will definatly be in attendance.

One question though.

Can we please employ some sort of kill rag/medic rule?

'Dead' people wandering all over the shop can be frustrating.

kevteljeur

senordingdong wrote: »

I will definatly be in attendance.

One question though.

Can we please employ some sort of kill rag/medic rule?

'Dead' people wandering all over the shop can be frustrating.

+1, we definitely should do stuff like this for the milsim games.

NakedHedgehog

Yes, I'm in - if possible I'd like to be on the US forces side.


Agreed on both the kill rag and medic rule.

Give players one or two rags (depending on how difficult you want to make it). When they're hit they drop where they're hit and need a team member (or specifically a medic -- depending again on how difficult you want it to be) to treat them. If they're not treated within X amount of minutes, they have to go back to a regen point.

You could then add on to that, that you'll need a certain amount of team members back at the point before you can "reinforce" the squad again; though that could end up with people sitting around for a long while.


You could also have a different rule set for the different teams.
For example, since the Taliban will likely not be trecking around with body armour, it could mean a one-hit kill for that side. They go back to regen for a low time limit to simulate them being indigenous.
Where as the US forces are likely more kitted out - thus the medic rule and since they would have to get reinforcements from their base (if at all), make it longer for them to come back into the fray.

It can get pretty tense when you have a bunch of people around you and you don't know who's going to engage you - add to that a down'd team mate and your trigger-itchiness will just increase!

Dr_Pepper

kd,

Doc & kevteljeur are members of the Hawks

kdouglas

kdouglas wrote: »

The Hawks
Stray Dogs
NakedHedgehog
Tommyboy
OzCam
kdouglas

Whoops, fixed

weeder

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

The Hawks are ready to be the US forces.

I didnt think it was a team day.

plastic_axe

i'm in for this and almost certainly +2 more.