Recording Schools and Courses

PaulBrewer

I can't switch on the Internet these days without getting bombarded with Ads for Recording Courses.

How many of you have done them?

What did you pay?

Was it worth it?

Did the Teachers have a clue?

Where did they get that clue? From the real world?

Did the course itself contribute to you getting a job?

Huh?

dav nagle

Life is but a game of survival. Each man to himself. The big dog eats the small dog. Many of these courses are setup to simply make lots of money. You pay for your degree, masters whatever and then you get a job in the media field. Some of my own friends would never have got their masters had it not been for their parents paying for their social life and car on top of the expensive fees. I am sure the courses are highly informative and great fun all the same. There are those who do these courses I am sure and go on to become very talented in their field of sound engineering. I just did a private course and plenty of work experience but hey that was enough. The fact that I have a mentor now means that I will learn how to make music that hits the shelves. Not going to mention who, but my willingness and drive to do it alone raised a pro's eyebrow. College will teach you how to edit and record but will it teach you 20 years experience of recording nearly 200 albums for some very famous well known acts? I can record bands, good demos, e.p's, voice overs etc... but what I really want to know is 'how to record and album that people will buy'... Will college teach you that? Not in my opinion, due to the amount of students. You would need one to one tuition to understand everything.

Even as a guitar teacher, people don't learn well in groups, but in private thats a different story. Masters and degrees are a great achievement if you want a job in media in my opinion.

studiorat

I'm thinking of doing a Masters, seems to be so many people with them these days...
Question is whether to do taught or researched? Anybody?
What sort of topics do people cover for a dissertation in a research music technology masters degree thingy?

Anybody here got a tonmeister degree?

Recording an album of "merchantable quality" and in a set time frame is down to preparation and experience.
It helps if someone can tell you how about doing it, but each one is different and different issues arise with each project.

Like most things it has to be done to learn how.

progsound

Dont waste money on schools for AE instead invest the money in gear, spend time learning how to use it, start recording local bands get as much experience as you can iv seen people who have come out of these schools and well hmmmm lets just say you cant teach creativity or talent. But you can teach how gear works, mic placemet, acustics all of which the people iv met who came out of these schools had imo a poor appreciation of. All the information you need can be self thought for the price of your monthly internet bill + the cost of a few books on amazon. But you will learn the most by experimenting and recording and mixing as much music as you can.



This is all from the point of view of someone who wants to work in the music industry if you want to work in tv or radio you will probably need some AE qualification behind you.

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

The big dog eats the small dog.

people don't learn well in groups, but in private thats a different story.

Dav, you are a Poet.

cornbb

studiorat wrote: »

I'm thinking of doing a Masters, seems to be so many people with them these days...
Question is whether to do taught or researched? Anybody?
What sort of topics do people cover for a dissertation in a research music technology masters degree thingy?

Anybody here got a tonmeister degree?

Recording an album of "merchantable quality" and in a set time frame is down to preparation and experience.
It helps if someone can tell you how about doing it, but each one is different and different issues arise with each project.

Like most things it has to be done to learn how.

It depends what you want to get out of it really. You strike me as a guy who's had tons of experience in the studio, I don't think a degree would significantly enhance that experience. On the other hand it would be useful if you wanted to get into something like teaching or R&D.

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

Like most things it has to be done to learn how.

Like Ridin' ....

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

I'm thinking of doing a Masters,

My question was really aimed at the inexperienced but your answer opens up other ideas.

I guess for one side of your work (Teachering) NOT having a qualification is a decided disadvantage.

I know one course where they can't employ someone to teach unless they have a Degree. Yet those very same Degree holders rarely have the real world experience necessary to 'cut to the chase' as they've never been at the chase !

studiorat

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Like Ridin' ....

WAY-HAY!!!

cornbb wrote: »

It depends what you want to get out of it really. You strike me as a guy who's had tons of experience in the studio, I don't think a degree would significantly enhance that experience. On the other hand it would be useful if you wanted to get into something like teaching or R&D.

Well I've been working in some related fields recently (film and theatre dahling) and I'd like to do some R&D and get the opportunity to develop some new techniques (really new techniques). (Like proving Brewer's slipping drum tracks thing is pants!:D)
You do very little "R&D" when you're working on someone elses clock. (I said CLOCK)

It's only 9 months if I get get stuck in.
Besides, one day I'll probably retire into teaching, smoking a pipe with me cord elbow patches. So I'd better start now.

PaulBrewer

progsound wrote: »

Dont waste money on schools for AE instead invest the money in gear

Is this not part of the problem Progsound?

If you take the 'DIY' route are you actually slowing down your learning experience?

My Eyebrows are sometimes sore from being raised from reading some of the uneducated waffle that gets posted here! Would there be less of it if guys were more schooled?

If a course can get you to miss all the silly mistakes, isn't that good? .... and worth paying for?

A school can't instill imagination or innate musicality into a student , but surely good education can speed them on their way?

studiorat

PaulBrewer wrote: »

A school can't instill imagination or innate musicality into a student , but surely good education can speed them on their way?

It gives them a chance do develop a talent, in a conducive environment. Without people getting on their backs about getting a job etc. For a year or so.

cornbb

studiorat wrote: »

Well I've been working in some related fields recently (film and theatre dahling) and I'd like to do some R&D and get the opportunity to develop some new techniques (really new techniques). (Like proving Brewer's slipping drum tracks thing is pants!:D)
You do very little "R&D" when you're working on someone elses clock. (I said CLOCK)

It's only 9 months if I get get stuck in.
Besides, one day I'll probably retire into teaching, smoking a pipe with me cord elbow patches. So I'd better start now.

Well you might enjoy it a lot then! To answer your earlier question, for my dissertation I developed a VST which is supposed to create static and drone sounds using the phase vocoder technique. So I found my masters course really interesting and very relevant to the field I'm working in now (music related programming). There's a broad range of things you can get involved in, but the focus in most of these courses is definitely not on studio recording and production techniques. A lot of people go down the artistic route and produce compositions for their dissertations but I found the techie route more interesting and useful.

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

WAY-HAY!!!



(Like proving Brewer's slipping drum tracks thing is pants!:D)

It's all the fashion in Lahndan, darling.... Come down to Clara and I'll have you leaving with your D4 tail between your legs ...

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

It gives them a chance do develop a talent, in a conducive environment. Without people getting on their backs about getting a job etc. For a year or so.

Yes! that will happen when the guy in charge has a clue!

But my experience is that a lot of tutors DON"T have an iota....

Are we agreed Education is great, but only when delivered by the Educated (and dat don't necessarily mean BookLearnin') ?

progsound

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Is this not part of the problem Progsound?

If you take the 'DIY' route are you actually slowing down your learning experience?

My Eyebrows are sometimes sore from being raised from reading some of the uneducated waffle that gets posted here! Would there be less of it if guys were more schooled?

If a course can get you to miss all the silly mistakes, isn't that good? .... and worth paying for?

A school can't instill imagination or innate musicality into a student , but surely good education can speed them on their way?

Well its been my experience that i learn faster by getting my hands dirty so to speak and making mistakes and asking silly questions. When i started out doing this (im only a hobbiest mind not a pro so still learning) i considered doing a course but i kept putting it off untill it dawned on me that i was learning soooo much on my own by research and asking questions on fourms ect ect and then you hear the stuff that some of the so called qualified people put out it made me think "if thats what 3 years of full time education gives you i think il keep my money".

But saying that it depends on the person a tard will always be a tard even if he goes to college and passes he will just be a tard with a piece of paper. I think if you are motivated and hardworking you will get results college or no college. I mean you can read up on all the theroy on the web anyway so its not like you will only get access to the information by going to college which may have been the case in the past.

But i take your point that some people might benifit from a structured learning enviroment.

PaulBrewer

progsound wrote: »

(im only a hobbiest mind not a pro so still learning)

We're all still learning!

Is that were all the 'tards with bits of paper' go, into teaching?;)

dav nagle

How many people have done courses in this field and have found each and every teacher in their given field to be fascinating, open, knowledgeable, experienced? In most cases, teachers of this kind of outstanding talent are few and far between.

For music production you need a nice studio and a good rep and some savage gear and musical talent. If you have these factors and you are willing to record anyone and anything you will make money hands down.

At the moment I am dreaming of my HD setup and women lying around my studio naked like the sexy snake serpents they are. It's all good 'in it' 'ya get me'... 'woz a wozit?'

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Dav, you are a Poet.

Written for Paul:

I'm a poet and you know it
you show it
the love
respect
neglect
but just reflect
genuflect at my alter
I'll spray you with water
the holy kind
the kind for the blind
the key you will find
the back of your mind
keep dancing
prancing
around like a dog
barking out the back
with no bone to chew
or puppy to screw
where's the love?

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

Written for Paul:

I'm a poet and you know it
you show it
the love
respect
neglect
but just reflect
genuflect at my alter
I'll spray you with water
the holy kind
the kind for the blind
the key you will find
the back of your mind
keep dancing
prancing
around like a dog
barking out the back
with no bone to chew
or puppy to screw
where's the love?

Dav, you are a Poet ............ and a Fruitcake:pac:

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Dav, you are a Poet ............ and a Fruitcake:pac:

Thanks Paul I am glad to be a fruit cake, a tasty fruit cake.

ogy

i finished a masters in music technology last june.

delighted i did it, learned loads, very few of the lectures were purely "academics", they were people who work in the industry every day, and the ones who were "academics" were experts in their field.

the thing with courses like this is, that the students have hugely varying backgrounds, so yeh, there were some things that id done before or could have worked out myself, but loads of issues/theory etc that i probably would have always brushed off or shyed away from investigating.

i learned a lot from the audio production/sound engineering end of things, but it was only one element of the course, so obviously there wasn't quite as intense as a course aimed purely at engineering. however there were reasonable amounts of studio time and decent equipment that could be borrowed so anyone with a bit of initiative who didn't mind recording at unsociable hours could rack up loads of experience.

for my thesis i did a combined practical/compositional thing. i built a max patch using granulation, spectral and surround sound principals, then composed something for it. other peoples thesis topics ranged from pure audio or visual composition(or a combination of both), acoustics, broadcast technology, multimedia installation...., loads of stuff!:)

dav nagle

ogy wrote: »

i finished a masters in music technology last june.

delighted i did it, learned loads, very few of the lectures were purely "academics", they were people who work in the industry every day, and the ones who were "academics" were experts in their field.

the thing with courses like this is, that the students have hugely varying backgrounds, so yeh, there were some things that id done before or could have worked out myself, but loads of issues/theory etc that i probably would have always brushed off or shyed away from investigating.

i learned a lot from the audio production/sound engineering end of things, but it was only one element of the course, so obviously there wasn't quite as intense as a course aimed purely at engineering. however there were reasonable amounts of studio time and decent equipment that could be borrowed so anyone with a bit of initiative who didn't mind recording at unsociable hours could rack up loads of experience.

for my thesis i did a combined practical/compositional thing. i built a max patch using granulation, spectral and surround sound principals, then composed something for it. other peoples thesis topics ranged from pure audio or visual composition(or a combination of both), acoustics, broadcast technology, multimedia installation...., loads of stuff!:)

Sounds like a cool course, where did you do the course and where does your future lie? Are you aiming to work in media or studio or abroad?

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

i finished a masters in music technology last june.

delighted i did it, learned loads, very few of the lectures were purely "academics", they were people who work in the industry every day, and the ones who were "academics" were experts in their field.

the thing with courses like this is, that the students have hugely varying backgrounds, so yeh, there were some things that id done before or could have worked out myself, but loads of issues/theory etc that i probably would have always brushed off or shyed away from investigating.

i learned a lot from the audio production/sound engineering end of things, but it was only one element of the course, so obviously there wasn't quite as intense as a course aimed purely at engineering. however there were reasonable amounts of studio time and decent equipment that could be borrowed so anyone with a bit of initiative who didn't mind recording at unsociable hours could rack up loads of experience.

for my thesis i did a combined practical/compositional thing. i built a max patch using granulation, spectral and surround sound principals, then composed something for it. other peoples thesis topics ranged from pure audio or visual composition(or a combination of both), acoustics, broadcast technology, multimedia installation...., loads of stuff!:)

Were was that Ogy? Maynooth?

ogy

the course was the MMT in trinity, admittedly they need a bit of a cash injection for some gear upgrades, but the people were really great.

to be honest my futures a bit uncertain at the moment:) i was a bit blown out after the thesis so i took it easy for the summer, then i was badly in need of cash so ended up taking a teaching job that has nothing to do with music!:) would love to end up working in something which involves recording/multimedia. while im in this job im hoping to accumulate a decent bit of gear and hopefully record lots of bands in my spare time, maybe start up my own small part time business, still kinda finding my feet at the moment, ive been a bit lazy and perhaps a bit defeatist in seeking my destiny i have to admit, but im determined to get going over the next year in one way or another!

dav nagle

ogy wrote: »

the course was the MMT in trinity, admittedly they need a bit of a cash injection for some gear upgrades, but the people were really great.

to be honest my futures a bit uncertain at the moment:) i was a bit blown out after the thesis so i took it easy for the summer, then i was badly in need of cash so ended up taking a teaching job that has nothing to do with music!:) would love to end up working in something which involves recording/multimedia. while im in this job im hoping to accumulate a decent bit of gear and hopefully record lots of bands in my spare time, maybe start up my own small part time business, still kinda finding my feet at the moment, ive been a bit lazy and perhaps a bit defeatist in seeking my destiny i have to admit, but im determined to get going over the next year in one way or another!

Good stuff, I am sure you will find your feet my friend... Now, I hope they were using more advanced computer systems than this?

ogy

yeh it wasn't quite that bad:)

dav nagle

ogy wrote: »

yeh it wasn't quite that bad:)

lol only kidding!!!

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

the course was the MMT in trinity, admittedly they need a bit of a cash injection for some gear upgrades, but the people were really great.

What does MMT stand for?

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What does MMT stand for?

ohh let me guess...

music media technology!

ogy

Music and Media Technology. topics covered include: audio production/DSP/Max/Midi/Music and Image/Video Production/Composition for Mixed Media/Music Theory...

i sound like a prospectus!

dav nagle

ogy wrote: »

Music and Media Technology. topics covered include: audio production/DSP/Max/Midi/Music and Image/Video Production/Composition for Mixed Media/Music Theory...

i sound like a prospectus!

Sounds like a very fulfilling amount of areas are covered, cool :cool:

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

Music and Media Technology. topics covered include: audio production/DSP/Max/Midi/Music and Image/Video Production/Composition for Mixed Media/Music Theory...

i sound like a prospectus!

What's MAX?

ogy

Max is a visual programming language geared towards music and video processing. takes a little while to get in to but really good!

cornbb

Max is awesome, I wish it wasn't so feckin expensive.

PaulBrewer

Every day's a school day!

iquinn

...did someone say there were jobs in studios?

jtsuited

Max ruined my life for about three months (in a good way).

I did an MA in Computer Music in NUIM. Was great for learning about the real stuff of digital audio ie. what actually is happening inside your computer. Enjoyed the acoustics and psychoacoustics modules too.

Overall I liked the highly Academic/Scientific nature of the course (I'm a little bit like that). Beats the hell out of a 'here's how to record a rock band' type courses which, let's be honest, anyone can learn by themselves.

ogy

the educational discount for max its great, anyone who's still a student can email there student ID to cycilng 74 and they can get Max 5 (the new version which includes msp and jitter) for less than 200 quid! then your on the ladder and you can get all the upgrades and stuff at reasonable prices even if your not a student anymore.

FlipperThePriest

cornbb wrote: »

Max is awesome, I wish it wasn't so feckin expensive.

Check out Pure Data: http://puredata.info/
It's excellent when you get to know it (and free), I'm using it in conjunction with my thesis (Im doing my masters in Music Tech).
I found the course really enjoyable. It helped make me aware of just how much I love music and what I want to do and also showed me my strengths.
The lecturers did have real world experience; i.e. our Music Production lecturer (a producer himself) has been there and done it: did he pass on his tricks...no! I found him of little help, however I learned a huge amount in my own time in the studio and was thrilled to get my hands on and working in a pro studio with top equipment.
Lecturers I found most helpful were those teaching computer programming: C, Csound, pure data etc. Elsewhere it was just about applying your own ideas and developing your own skills. We did Electronics which wasn't really worth it because lets face it, you can't do 10wk course (2/3 hrs a wk) in electronics and expect to come away with much; it's a degree in itself, good to let you know whats going on inside an EQ though. Other subjects we covered were electroacoustic composition - which I loved - opens up a whole new can of worms while teaching you some great tricks along the way as regards crazy editing and sculpting sounds you never knew exsisted using whatever means possible. It gives another perspective from which to approach music with.
We also covered midi, music & multimedia (websites, sound desgin/score for film) and acoustics and psychoacoustics which was also very interesting..oh and interactive systems, also very interesting - the practice of using music to interact with it's environment using electronics/programming, pretty cool, development of public art installations for example.

Overall, I enjoyed the course immensely and would highly recommend it.

PaulBrewer

zippy84 wrote: »

Check out Pure Data: http://puredata.info/
It's excellent when you get to know it (and free), I'm using it in conjunction with my thesis (Im doing my masters in Music Tech).
I found the course really enjoyable. It helped make me aware of just how much I love music and what I want to do and also showed me my strengths.
The lecturers did have real world experience; i.e. our Music Production lecturer (a producer himself) has been there and done it: did he pass on his tricks...no! I found him of little help, however I learned a huge amount in my own time in the studio and was thrilled to get my hands on and working in a pro studio with top equipment.
Lecturers I found most helpful were those teaching computer programming: C, Csound, pure data etc. Elsewhere it was just about applying your own ideas and developing your own skills. We did Electronics which wasn't really worth it because lets face it, you can't do 10wk course (2/3 hrs a wk) in electronics and expect to come away with much; it's a degree in itself, good to let you know whats going on inside an EQ though. Other subjects we covered were electroacoustic composition - which I loved - opens up a whole new can of worms while teaching you some great tricks along the way as regards crazy editing and sculpting sounds you never knew exsisted using whatever means possible. It gives another perspective from which to approach music with.
We also covered midi, music & multimedia (websites, sound desgin/score for film) and acoustics and psychoacoustics which was also very interesting..oh and interactive systems, also very interesting - the practice of using music to interact with it's environment using electronics/programming, pretty cool, development of public art installations for example.

Overall, I enjoyed the course immensely and would highly recommend it.

Good to hear Zip! Where are you studying?

FlipperThePriest

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Good to hear Zip! Where are you studying?

Studying in Dundalk. I'm doing my thesis on an interactive public installation inspired by our atrocious climate...musical components will be triggered by different weather elements, i.e. rain will stimulate one aspect; different variations of rainfall will cause variations in music, same with wind and sunlight...e.g. i can use LDRs to analyse sunlight, which can be interpreted by pure data. Hopefully all the music reacting to terrible weather will help ease the suicidal tendencies! It's pretty wacky but it's cool.:pac:

PaulBrewer

zippy84 wrote: »

Studying in Dundalk. I'm doing my thesis on an interactive public installation inspired by our atrocious climate...musical components will be triggered by different weather elements, i.e. rain will stimulate one aspect; different variations of rainfall will cause variations in music, same with wind and sunlight...e.g. i can use LDRs to analyse sunlight, which can be interpreted by pure data. Hopefully all the music reacting to terrible weather will help ease the suicidal tendencies! It's pretty wacky but it's cool.:pac:

Cool, see you on X-Factor then, yea?

FlipperThePriest

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Cool, see you on X-Factor then, yea?

Absolutely...but not before I do my Doctorate in Ninja!!!:D

cornbb

zippy84 wrote: »

Check out Pure Data: http://puredata.info/
It's excellent when you get to know it (and free), I'm using it in conjunction with my thesis (Im doing my masters in Music Tech)..

I've used Pd a lot too. Its a bit of a pain in the arse compared to Max though!

FlipperThePriest

cornbb wrote: »

I've used Pd a lot too. Its a bit of a pain in the arse compared to Max though!

I hear ya, it's not without bugs but it is free, and they're constantly releasing newer versions - the latest version is pretty good I have to say! Hasn't failed me yet. All it takes is a bit of logical thinking and it can do anything you want!
Also it has a really good mailing list and some decent helpfile examples.

cornbb

zippy84 wrote: »

I hear ya, it's not without bugs but it is free, and they're constantly releasing newer versions - the latest version is pretty good I have to say! Hasn't failed me yet. All it takes is a bit of logical thinking and it can do anything you want!
Also it has a really good mailing list and some decent helpfile examples.

I must take a look again I wrote some Pd externals back in the day but its been a while! Hope the documentation has improved.

studiorat

I started Pd a while back, good to know there's a few here who use it.

You tube was good to pick it up at first.

Actually, anybody know where I can pick up those sensor to midi convertors?

studiorat

cornbb wrote: »

! Hope the documentation has improved.

+1

FlipperThePriest

studiorat wrote: »

Actually, anybody know where I can pick up those sensor to midi convertors?

http://www.arduino.cc/....This is a really good microcontroller - 8x digital 6x analog inputs, it's open source hardware! Runs on usb and it only cost 20eu. not sure if it will convert midi data, but you can use it to accept digital/electronic data and convert it to midi.

Edit: You should youtube Arduino, it's applications are vast, anything from light secquencing, to robotics!!

PaulBrewer

ah lads... you're doin savage hijackin me thread?

FlipperThePriest

PaulBrewer wrote: »

ah lads... you're doin savage hijackin me thread?

Hey it's all academic, I thought you were interested in academia and what's involved? With this input you might not need to do a course...just research whats been discussed and your away in a hack!