New irons - Advice please

colin2503

Greetings all,
i have recently moved back from the UK after 10 years. Before i left i was a relatively steady 13 handicap. i probably played about 5 times a year since then. I'm back playing regularly again this year (well as regularly as this crappy weather will allow) and am playing to around 18. My current irons are titleist dci 990's about 8 years old. I am looking to buy a new set but am conscious not to get duped by all the marketing hype going around. my initial research is directing me towards two different sets
1. Callaway X-20's - I'm told they allow for maximum forgiveness while not sacrificing distance/feel etc. Price €599
2. Mizuno MX-200's - the new upgrade to the M-25's. Price €649 although the M-25's are available at McGurks for €499. A couple of mates of mine bought M-25's and are now playing in single figures and swear by them. others have said they are for a better golfer than me.

I am open to other suggestions if anyone can help me. All i want is a club that will get me up and around the green in regulation and let my chipping and putting ruin my score instead. Also where is the best place to buy?

Many thanks in advance

ShriekingSheet

I got these back in May. Taylor Made Tour Burners. Would suit your standard (and better) very well. Come with Project X shafts as standard. I found the X20s balloon the ball a bit. The TMs give a more solid flight. Think they were only €499 in McGuirks.

http://www.taylormadegolf.com/product_detail.asp?pID=214&section=gallery

Paulusmaximus

Hi SS, which X20's did you try? where they the standard ones or the Tour ones. I have the X14 pro series and am considering changing and am considering going to the x20's tour version(the ones without the offset). Just wondering if you have tried these ones?

Adiaga 2

I would recommend certainly going with the MX-25s over the MX-200s. I'd say there is very little difference...apart from a new badge and the extra $$$. You might also get them cheaper online from the UK if you have a look around. I have the MX-23s(another predecessor) and love them.

ShriekingSheet

Paulusmaximus wrote: »

Hi SS, which X20's did you try? where they the standard ones or the Tour ones. I have the X14 pro series and am considering changing and am considering going to the x20's tour version(the ones without the offset). Just wondering if you have tried these ones?

Yeah tried both the standard and tours Paul. Have always loved the look of the tour Callaways but it seems these new version are a step backward. Also, I did a google search at the time for player reviews on them and it was worringly poor feedback from forums in the USA, similar to Boards. Can't remember exactly where the feedback was but only took 2 mins on google to find them. A lot of people saying they lost yardage moving from X18s and similar. Also www.thesandtrap.com will have some archived stuff on the equipment page I'd say.

Anyhoo, there's better stuff out there it seems. If you wanna go bladey-er I know some top amateurs playing the X Forged ones which are supposed to be awesome. Very Mizuno-esque but very thin.

Taylor Made have a Tour Preferred version of what I use (think they're only just out) and if mine are anything to go by, these would be right up your street.

http://www.taylormadegolf.com/product_detail.asp?pID=228

Other than that I'd be pretty stumped. Not an overwhelming amount of obviously good clubs out there. In doing my research earlier in the year I was pretty unimpressed with what Ping, Titleist and Callaway had to offer.

madds

colin2503 wrote: »

i have recently moved back from the UK after 10 years.

What a sad day that was...

All i want is a club that will get me up and around the green in regulation and let my chipping and putting ruin my score instead.

Isn't that the truth.

Mate, you made a good decision posting here. There are some good contributors on this forum who know their stuff. You obviously did not take any heed of the email I sent you earlier this morning with my 0.02$ worth. I'll still take the fiver off you when I'm back on my feet.

Can anyone vouch for the range of irons that Wilson offer?

slingerz

madds wrote: »

What a sad day that was...



Isn't that the truth.

Mate, you made a good decision posting here. There are some good contributors on this forum who know their stuff. You obviously did not take any heed of the email I sent you earlier this morning with my 0.02$ worth. I'll still take the fiver off you when I'm back on my feet.

Can anyone vouch for the range of irons that Wilson offer?

I like the ping g10's to be honest. Nevada Bobs are doing a deal on the wilson dci7 or something but i not sure about them. Those TM burner are expensive kit though

Mr. Larson

slingerz wrote: »

I like the ping g10's to be honest.

+1 for the PING G10's. I bought a set of these a few weeks ago and loving them, very forgiving. Tried them versus the Callaway X(10 or 20 can't remember) and hit the ball much straighter and longer with the PING G10's. Only thing is they are not great looking in comparison to most other clubs but that should be low down on your list of priorities.

More info here

As an aside, I don't necessarily understand why the website has them categorised for "mid-high handicap" - wonder what differentiates them in this way? It's certainly not lack of spin... I hit a 9 iron into a green yesterday in the rain which spun back all of 15 feet back off the green. I've noticed I get way more spin with these than my previous irons, so based on my experience, I would take the 'low spin' comment with a pinch of salt.

colin2503

thanks very much everyone. i appreciate all the advice although i must admit i'm still as confused as before. i guess it's such an individual purchase that advice can only take you so far.

i'll check out the callaway reviews from the states and take a look at the tm's also although numerous people have told me to stay away from them (see what i mean about confused)

i'm off to the range tonight to hit a set of cally x19's and a set of mx-23's so hopefully that will point me in the right direction

thanks again

colin2503

i tried the g10's on saturday and really liked them too but at €799 was told i could get much better value with mizuno or callaway

Pen1987

Make sure you get yourself a few quid for them DCi 990's... I've met an unusual amount of 10-15 handicappers with a fetish for those sticks. Polish them good and get a black maker to the grooves so they look as new as possible then flog them to a DCi lover... theres a few around...

neckedit

Hey Colin got to say your doing the right thing testing all these clubs before you buy, advice from people on Irons is great but there is nothing like getting your hands on them and make up your own mind, as the sayng goes "one mans Meade is anothers poison":P

Hope the search goes well for ya

slingerz

I've heard good stuff about the titelist AP1's anyone else know anything about them and what type of golfer would they suit?

Sionnachster

slingerz wrote: »

I've heard good stuff about the titelist AP1's anyone else know anything about them and what type of golfer would they suit?

Reviews were good but haven't got to hit them yet. ZB (?) irons are also available and I think they are aimed at a lower hamndicap. The AP 1's may be more forgiving than normal I believe...
I love most of the Titleist Irons range myself and have the 690MBs which I think are a classic iron. I couldn't recommend anything until he had a chance to hit them because it's such an individual decision. Has anyone suggested a custom fit of these new irons?

Obni

Not a club I would have even considered until I did some last minute search for 'improving' irons. Wilson Ci7's.
Hit them, bought them, love them.
Should be able to get them for €400 to €450.
Harrington used the Ci7 4-iron (or 4 & 5 iron depending on the journalist) along with his custom Wilson's during the Open this year.

spurscormac

Obni wrote: »

Not a club I would have even considered until I did some last minute search for 'improving' irons. Wilson Ci7's.
Hit them, bought them, love them.
Should be able to get them for €400 to €450.
Harrington used the Ci7 4-iron (or 4 & 5 iron depending on the journalist) along with his custom Wilson's during the Open this year.

I just got a set of the old ci-6's from ebay. They got great reviews in 2006, and I got them as a bargain.
I'm nowhere near the standard of the players in this thread, but they seem good for me.

As regards Harrington's clubs, according to the Wilson Staff site, he used a ci7 4-iron & Pi 5-PW(whether thats customised Pi, Pi7s, or prototypes, its hard to know).
Maybe the Pi7s would be suitable to a lower handicapper ?
Again, more proficcient golfer would need to comment on thie findings with these sets.

Obni

First of all, don't let a lack of golfing ability stop you expressing forthright opinions on this forum. I don't.

I think Wilson's marketing strategy is:
Di7 = High handicappers
Pi7 = Low handicappers
Ci7 = High handicappers who think they should be low handicappers, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

kagni

Have a look at the Cobra s9's.
I got a set a couple of weeks ago and they are great.
Great forgiveness - they go high and straight.
Decent price too, espescially if you can get a discount on last years model.

curranjames

Hi,

I went to New York last November with no intention of buying clubs however with the value I had to buy. I had been thinking of buying in Ireland so a bit of research had been done.

I decided to go with the Titleist Forged 735•CM steel shafts. O boy was it a good decision. Went from 10.6 to 8.9 in just under a year. Have won the society Captain and President prize this year and wrapped up the golfer of the year last weekend with a third place finish.

They are a lovely set of irons, the 8, 9 , pw are blades and give such confidence when in the paw!!

I would highly recommend this iron to anyone!

See link below
http://www.titleist.com/golfclubs/irons/735cm.asp

madds

The OP picked up a set of Ping Raptors (black eye) today for ~€550, custom fit.

PhilipMarlowe

I use the 735CM irons and I agree they are lovely. Titleist do make some fantastic irons anyway... The 735's are now not current stock I'd imagine, with the release of the AP1's AP2's, ZB's and the ones that make me drool, the ZM's.
As a result, you may be able to find a set of 735's for good value somewhere.
They are aimed at the better player so if you are not so confident you might want to aim for something more 'game-improving' but they are well worth considering anyway.

curranjames

Ya your right the new range looks something else, cant wait to get my hands on the ZM's. They look class.......

Sandwich

What irons to play? I dont feel Brand X, Model Y is really any help to you.

An alternative answer:

Point of information.
Marketing is the art of product differentiation - even when no inherent or functional difference really exists. It is a creative endevour to convey through user discernable (visual) or "trust implied" differences between products. It is not necessary that either the discernable or trusted differences have any relevance to the product performance - only that the consumer believes (or hopes) that they do. A very successful fundamental marketing strategy involves product categorising, price pointing and the idea of 'progression', moving up, and market segmentation - 'one size fits all' is very bad for sales.

Irons.
An iron has two fundamental components, clubhead and shaft.

CLUBHEAD.
1) Categorised, (under various names) to be roughly : blade, muscleback, shallow cavity, perimeter weighted, Game Improvement.
2) Every golfer wants 'game improvement'
3) All golfers (even high handicap) can hit all clubs !
4) But high moment of inertia clubs will be less prone to lesser shots on off centre hits. ALL golfers want this - although the better the golfer, the less he is likely to need the 'robustness' of the clubs performance.
5) So all golfers should play game improvement clubs? Not quite but very almost. They should play as extreme a perimeter weighted club as their swing permits - the key limiting factor being sole front to back length. If too long, it can interfere with the ease with which open/closed faced shots can be played ("workability"). This consideration only has relevance - despite all the adverts (aspirational marketing) - to those golfers who can repeatedly, instinctively, fade or draw or hit straight the ball, in a controlled manner. These players are scratch or better. Everyone else just wants to hit the ball as straight as they can (or with a fixed natural draw or swing which is a fixed characteristic of their swing) with mi****s being as little wayward as possible.
6) Pick a perimeter weighted club head - it really doesnt matter which one.
(BTW - forged or cast ? Forged is: traditional, a more expensive manufacturing process, and less easy to make Game Improvement designs by - perfect for pitching to a restricted grouping and charging more for them. 'Feel' - a really excellent marketing ploy - guys, the ball is already gone by time you feel anything. "Buttery" is even better, genius from whoever came up with that one.)
(BTW2 - 'updates'. Amazing cheek really. MX20, MX23, MX25, MX200........ WILL MAKE NO DIFFERENCE TO YOUR GAME!!!)


So why all the interest in club heads?
Its the marketing man's dream. Club designers, and marketing 'interpreting' the design to the consumer, have great freedom to change the visual aspects of the clubhead and create perceived differentiation - WITH LITTLE OR NO EFFECT ON THE PERFORMANCE. Face curvature, offset, cavity depth, shape, colour, insert, logos, embosses, undercuts, muscle pads, etc.etc.etc.

SHAFT
Ever ask someone what clubs are they playing and have them reply "DG Gold S300" or "Aldila NV FW 70 S" or equivalent? I'll bet my house no. But its a better answer than "Mizunos", "X20s" or whatever.
1) The shaft in your club DOES make a difference to how well you can play with your given swing.
2) But aside from steel or colour of graphite, all shafts look the same. We, the consumer cannot tell the difference by looking at them, certainly not by waggling them, and not much better by even hitting a few balls with them. Not fruitful ground for the manufacturers put thier efforts into.
3) So which one to choose? Traditionally by Flex, R, S, X etc as a rough match to handicap or how far you hit (or like to think you hit) the ball.
4) The only way is by hitting many shafts, many balls, on a range, preferably with a launch monitor.
5) The differences between shafts will quickly be appreciated to have an huge impact on ball flight, consistency and distance. The shaft must be tailored to your individual swing. The shaft is not a rigit body, it bends and twists in all dimensions, and to different extents along different parts of the shaft. There is no way of selecting a shaft for one person without trial and error, and measurement - the dynamics of the swing are too complex.
6) Nobody can recommend you a shaft without such an anlysis (barring extremely unlikely good fortune).

What Irons to play ?
Focus on the shaft.
Trial as many shafts as you can with a launch monitor under the eye of an experienced club fitter who is ideally also a golf pro and can correlate what he sees in your swing with the results of the hits.
Choose any perimeter weighted clubhead.
Ensure that the length and lie are matched to your body (at impact not at address!). The old idea of tall golfers needing long shafts/upright lies and vise versa is long dead.

Sandwich

Example 1

curranjames wrote: »

Ya your right the new range looks something else, cant wait to get my hands on the ZM's. They look class.......

Sandwich

Example 2

Obni wrote: »

First of all, don't let a lack of golfing ability stop you expressing forthright opinions on this forum. I don't.

I think Wilson's marketing strategy is:
Di7 = High handicappers
Pi7 = Low handicappers
Ci7 = High handicappers who think they should be low handicappers, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

ImDave

Sandwich wrote: »

3) All golfers (even high handicap) can hit all clubs !

Sandwich wrote: »

4) The only way is by hitting many shafts, many balls, on a range, preferably with a launch monitor.

Launch Monitors are a complete and utter waste of time in my opinion. They might be better than using nothing at all, but not by much.

neckedit

Hey Dave, I know this is off topic, but Why do you say Monitors are a awaste of time?

Pen1987

^ I agree with him.

Most golfers dont strike the ball consistantly enough for their launch angle to have relevance. I'd say most would be better off just watching their shots and seeing the problems with their eye than using a launch monitor, especially when it comes to ball flight.

neckedit

I don't understand this at all! How can you tell by eye how consistantly your launching the ball? We have at our disposal a piece of equipment that can actually assist us in choosing the proper shaft and loft, for all level of players, if your a top class player or an 18 handicap the technology is very benificial to all. Beginers don't benifit as much from the use of this kind of analysis. due to the erratic nature of a beginer swing. I've seen some very high handicap players with very consistant impact posistions who have benifitted greatly from this kind of analysis, to rubbish it completely is IMO very very foolish:P

PhilipMarlowe

About the only shot I ever want to hit straight on a golf course is a 3 foot putt!
I picked up a cobra iron on a driving range demo-day once and I was impressed by how straight the ball went and how difficult it was to put any 'shape' on it. I maybe should be using such a 'game improving' club but it not for me. Part of the fun of the game (for me) is to try and play different type of shots as I 'see' them.

ShriekingSheet

Sandwich wrote: »

What irons to play? I dont feel Brand X, Model Y is really any help to you.

An alternative answer:

Point of information.
Marketing is the art of product differentiation - even when no inherent or functional difference really exists. It is a creative endevour to convey through user discernable (visual) or "trust implied" differences between products. It is not necessary that either the discernable or trusted differences have any relevance to the product performance - only that the consumer believes (or hopes) that they do. A very successful fundamental marketing strategy involves product categorising, price pointing and the idea of 'progression', moving up, and market segmentation - 'one size fits all' is very bad for sales.

Irons.
An iron has two fundamental components, clubhead and shaft.

CLUBHEAD.
1) Categorised, (under various names) to be roughly : blade, muscleback, shallow cavity, perimeter weighted, Game Improvement.
2) Every golfer wants 'game improvement'
3) All golfers (even high handicap) can hit all clubs !
4) But high moment of inertia clubs will be less prone to lesser shots on off centre hits. ALL golfers want this - although the better the golfer, the less he is likely to need the 'robustness' of the clubs performance.
5) So all golfers should play game improvement clubs? Not quite but very almost. They should play as extreme a perimeter weighted club as their swing permits - the key limiting factor being sole front to back length. If too long, it can interfere with the ease with which open/closed faced shots can be played ("workability"). This consideration only has relevance - despite all the adverts (aspirational marketing) - to those golfers who can repeatedly, instinctively, fade or draw or hit straight the ball, in a controlled manner. These players are scratch or better. Everyone else just wants to hit the ball as straight as they can (or with a fixed natural draw or swing which is a fixed characteristic of their swing) with mi****s being as little wayward as possible.
6) Pick a perimeter weighted club head - it really doesnt matter which one.
(BTW - forged or cast ? Forged is: traditional, a more expensive manufacturing process, and less easy to make Game Improvement designs by - perfect for pitching to a restricted grouping and charging more for them. 'Feel' - a really excellent marketing ploy - guys, the ball is already gone by time you feel anything. "Buttery" is even better, genius from whoever came up with that one.)
(BTW2 - 'updates'. Amazing cheek really. MX20, MX23, MX25, MX200........ WILL MAKE NO DIFFERENCE TO YOUR GAME!!!)


So why all the interest in club heads?
Its the marketing man's dream. Club designers, and marketing 'interpreting' the design to the consumer, have great freedom to change the visual aspects of the clubhead and create perceived differentiation - WITH LITTLE OR NO EFFECT ON THE PERFORMANCE. Face curvature, offset, cavity depth, shape, colour, insert, logos, embosses, undercuts, muscle pads, etc.etc.etc.

SHAFT
Ever ask someone what clubs are they playing and have them reply "DG Gold S300" or "Aldila NV FW 70 S" or equivalent? I'll bet my house no. But its a better answer than "Mizunos", "X20s" or whatever.
1) The shaft in your club DOES make a difference to how well you can play with your given swing.
2) But aside from steel or colour of graphite, all shafts look the same. We, the consumer cannot tell the difference by looking at them, certainly not by waggling them, and not much better by even hitting a few balls with them. Not fruitful ground for the manufacturers put thier efforts into.
3) So which one to choose? Traditionally by Flex, R, S, X etc as a rough match to handicap or how far you hit (or like to think you hit) the ball.
4) The only way is by hitting many shafts, many balls, on a range, preferably with a launch monitor.
5) The differences between shafts will quickly be appreciated to have an huge impact on ball flight, consistency and distance. The shaft must be tailored to your individual swing. The shaft is not a rigit body, it bends and twists in all dimensions, and to different extents along different parts of the shaft. There is no way of selecting a shaft for one person without trial and error, and measurement - the dynamics of the swing are too complex.
6) Nobody can recommend you a shaft without such an anlysis (barring extremely unlikely good fortune).

What Irons to play ?
Focus on the shaft.
Trial as many shafts as you can with a launch monitor under the eye of an experienced club fitter who is ideally also a golf pro and can correlate what he sees in your swing with the results of the hits.
Choose any perimeter weighted clubhead.
Ensure that the length and lie are matched to your body (at impact not at address!). The old idea of tall golfers needing long shafts/upright lies and vise versa is long dead.

Disagree.

Your "point of information" on Marketing, which you've stated as a definition, is way off the mark here. It's refering to homegenous goods, like potatoes. Yes, in these cases Marketers will try and differentiate by the same petrol coming "packaged" in a cleaner fore-court, or by artificially charging more for their potatoes to try and create a perception of superior quality, but golf clubs are not homogenous.

The overriding theme of the top half seems to suggest that changing club heads is purely marketing ploy by big golf companies. Not exactly an earth-shattering revelation that big business goes big on marketing but a little naive given that you're completely ignoring the fact that the bulk of players who pay attention to golf equipment seek variety, options, the ability to customise and like checking out the new shapes and sizes of club heads from the top brands. You could even call it fashion.

If a guy likes the x 16s and two or three years later looks to renew his clubs, there's a fresh variation on the shelves. It's no different to the same guy buying a new Volkswagen Golf in '06 and going back in '08. Changes to the model may be slight, and he may go for a different colour but to say he expects a greatly improved driving experience does the consumer a disservice. And to suggest that because he likes his old car he should either stick with it or buy the same again is unrealistic in terms of basic consumer nature. Here's another theory that's not exactly earth-shattering - people like new things.

I fully agree with your basic points that most people should use more game improvement style clubs. I do it myself - using offset, midsize Tour Burners playing off a 5 handicap. I also agree that the shaft the key aspect of any stick.

But as regards club-heads, golfers have preferences. Whether they can explain them or not is beside the point. Some hackers prefer blades, Damien McGrane uses a few chunky/offset irons. Some people just get a buzz out of buying a new set and play well on the back of it. There's an argument to be made here that this has nothing to do with the physical change of clubs, but the idea of a new or "better" set of clubs gives the guy a boost.

I've made the point before that you have to laugh at an industry where the ball that flies further, lasts longer and costs less is outsold a thousand times over by one that costs more and cuts up after one hit of a wedge (made by the same company).

But consumers are also getting exactly what they want from this industry. And having the same selection of club heads or cars available to them that was there 2 years before is simply not what people want.

stockdam

Most of the new clubs will be fine. If you don't play a lot then stay away from the blades/forged/muscle backs.

All the following do good irons......

Ping, Titleist, Cobra, Mizuno, Callaway, Wilson, Taylormade......

The bottom line is for you to pick a set that suits you and which give you some confidence.

I use Ping G5 irons and they are pretty good........but each to his own.

colin2503

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Disagree.

I've made the point before that you have to laugh at an industry where the ball that flies further, lasts longer and costs less is outsold a thousand times over by one that costs more and cuts up after one hit of a wedge (made by the same company).

thanks shrieking sheet (and sandwich)
i spent most of the weekend hitting different clubs/shafts etc and ended up buying a set of regular shaft (so much nicer/easier to hit than my stiff shafted titleist) ping raptures. i just felt really comfortable with them. i probably hit 250 balls with 6 different clubs over two days and they were the ones i liked best. managed to pick them up for €500 too. suffice it to say i'm comfortable/happy with my decision and glad i don't have to do it again for a few years. i take sandwich's point about the marketing confusing what is essentially a simple decision (about the shafts in particular) and i take your point about it being nice to have choice.

many thanks for all your help and advice

one final thing i would like to know is what this golf ball that lasts longer further etc is called. paul mcginley once said at a golf clinic i was at that unless you're playing off four or less it doesn't make a blind bit of difference what ball you use. i'm assuming the ball that cuts up after one wedge is a pro-v1 so whats the other one?

ShriekingSheet

colin2503 wrote: »

i probably hit 250 balls with 6 different clubs over two days and they were the ones i liked best

Nice one - that's exactly what I did myself early in the Summer. You do need a bit of effort to get demos from shops or off club pros etc but it's worth it. When I think what I would have bought versus what I did buy after giving the clubs a decent trial...

colin2503 wrote: »

one final thing i would like to know is what this golf ball that lasts longer further etc is called. paul mcginley once said at a golf clinic i was at that unless you're playing off four or less it doesn't make a blind bit of difference what ball you use. i'm assuming the ball that cuts up after one wedge is a pro-v1 so whats the other one?

Haha, yes it's the Pro V1 (particularly the X version) and the Vokey Spin-Milled wedge.

The other ball, well, it's whatever you like really. I can't imagine there's a whole heap of difference between Top Flite, Ultra, Pinnacle etc. They all certainly last longer than the "pro" balls anyway.

As regards McGinley's point, I'd be inclined to agree in the main. Think it was 7 I got to when my pro said "right, time to play the same, soft ball in all comps" - think it was a Maxfli Revolution at the time. I was 4 soon after so did fit into McGinley's bracket.
And yeah, when I started back this year, given a 9 h'cap, I did play with whatever decent ball was cheap - NXT etc - but again as I got a bit lower and to 5 now I'm back with Pro V 1s.

I wouldn't really criticise any adult for playing such a ball. For me it's a bit like any little luxury in life. When you're at the shop it's like "I work hard enough not to have to worry about a couple of euro in the difference, and I do prefer the ProV1, and I'm in the ball park of standard that can actually gain an advantage with it". Maybe when I have a mortgage and kids it'll be different but for now, that's my rationale.
The reason I say adults is that I'm personally not a huge fan of 12 h'cap kids demanding mega-bucks off parents for equipment they "need".

spurscormac

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

The other ball, well, it's whatever you like really. I can't imagine there's a whole heap of difference between Top Flite, Ultra, Pinnacle etc. They all certainly last longer than the "pro" balls anyway.

Slightly O/T, but reassuring for us beginners to read that there is very little difference between balls at our level. And I got hold of 30 Ultra's for €20 in Elvery's a few weeks back, so there's good bargains to be had out there.

(I won't tell you how many are left though )

ShriekingSheet

spurscormac wrote: »

Slightly O/T[/SIZE]

Haha, maybe so but if a day comes when you fork out €270 for two wedges and a box of balls
and hours later you find a well struck shot on the first hole has left the ball relatively unusable for the second hole, you won't consider it O/T

ImDave

neckedit wrote: »

Hey Dave, I know this is off topic, but Why do you say Monitors are a awaste of time?

Launch monitors are very limited in their capabilities. The technology behind a launch monitor is simple. It takes two "snapshots" of the ball moving between two separate points, and tags one part of the ball in the first shot, and using simple mathematical calculations, gives spin rates, ball speed, launch angle etc. Now, that is all well and good, but it only serves to give an estimate of how the ball should fly after that point. I have had some extremely off putting experiences with launch monitors, and try to avoid them whenever possible. Many may have heard of Trackman. Trackman is a device which uses Doppler Radar to track the actual ball flight the entire distance. It is used by all major club manufacturers, the USGA, R&A, and also Setanta and BBC when giving the distances, graphical interpretation of ball flights and ball speeds etc. on live TV. This is the only solution to give accurate information to a golfer and/or club fitter. In fact, it is accurate to within 1 foot at 100 yards, and approximately 2.5 feet at 300 yards. Spin rates and all other data is also extremely accurate.

I had the opportunity to use both a launch monitor (Vector) and Trackman at the same time a few months back, and it was shocking the difference in information provided by both. There was actually such a discrepancy in the data, that the result would be a club fitter pointing a golfer to two different clubs when interpreting the data.

stockdam

neckedit wrote: »

Hey Dave, I know this is off topic, but Why do you say Monitors are a awaste of time?

Just to add my tupence worth.

I don't use launch monitors but I know a bit about measurement & electronics.

Things are happening far, far too quickly during the first couple of inches or so to measure accurately and to extrapolate. To do it accurately probably would cost mega bucks and would only be affordable to the very few. Ok somebody shoot me down.

The easiest and cheapest way to see how the ball travels is to (err) hit some balls.

ImDave

stockdam wrote: »

Just to add my tupence worth.

I don't use launch monitors but I know a bit about measurement & electronics.

Things are happening far, far too quickly during the first couple of inches or so to measure accurately and to extrapolate. To do it accurately probably would cost mega bucks and would only be affordable to the very few. Ok somebody shoot me down.

The easiest and cheapest way to see how the ball travels is to (err) hit some balls.

Very true, and that is exactly the problem with launch monitors. Therefore the only solution is to measure the entire flight and constantly measure the ball throughout the flight. Launch monitors can be purchased from as little as €1500, so based on price alone there is no way the data can be accurate. Solutions such as Doppler Radar cost circa €25,000.

ShriekingSheet

ImDave wrote: »

Launch monitors are very limited in their capabilities. The technology behind a launch monitor is simple. It takes two "snapshots" of the ball moving between two separate points, and tags one part of the ball in the first shot, and using simple mathematical calculations, gives spin rates, ball speed, launch angle etc. Now, that is all well and good, but it only serves to give an estimate of how the ball should fly after that point. I have had some extremely off putting experiences with launch monitors, and try to avoid them whenever possible. Many may have heard of Trackman. Trackman is a device which uses Doppler Radar to track the actual ball flight the entire distance. It is used by all major club manufacturers, the USGA, R&A, and also Setanta and BBC when giving the distances, graphical interpretation of ball flights and ball speeds etc. on live TV. This is the only solution to give accurate information to a golfer and/or club fitter. In fact, it is accurate to within 1 foot at 100 yards, and approximately 2.5 feet at 300 yards. Spin rates and all other data is also extremely accurate.

I had the opportunity to use both a launch monitor (Vector) and Trackman at the same time a few months back, and it was shocking the difference in information provided by both. There was actually such a discrepancy in the data, that the result would be a club fitter pointing a golfer to two different clubs when interpreting the data.

Amazing amount of information Dave. Cheers for setting the record straight.

Personally, like all golf equipment theory and gadgetry, I feel such things can only really be measured in strokes. By that I mean, will this help me take less strokes, if so, how many?

neckedit

As you say dave the difference between the track man and the likes of the vector launch monitor is vast. But as is in this sport the vector has been superceeded by technology, its only in the last three or four years that the track man system has been available to the public prior to that the vector was the business, and then it was the choice of major manufacturers and club testers. I've worked with the vector models for about 8 years now and it was only last year when I got to use the track man for the first time, and as you know it is very impressive. If I could afford the €25k i'd invest in one. Ultimately its the fitter using his knowledge and experience that deciephers the information given by either machine that determines the correct spec for any given player. As I said before, to rubbish the Launch monitors, I believe, is a bit harsh as they do give vital information in an indoor enviorment at an affordable price.
The accuracy of the Vector Pro Launch System is impressive still. It measures ball speed within 0.5 mph, launch angle within 0.2 degrees, backspin and sidespin within 150 rpm and side angle within two degrees.

Sandwich

neckedit wrote: »

The accuracy of the Vector Pro Launch System is impressive still. It measures ball speed within 0.5 mph, launch angle within 0.2 degrees, backspin and sidespin within 150 rpm and side angle within two degrees.

Thats the resolution of the readout - is it really accurate to those values? I'd be amazed.

stockdam

Sandwich wrote: »

Thats the resolution of the readout - is it really accurate to those values? I'd be amazed.

I'm not here to rubbish anything but yes resolution is different to accuracy and also to repeatability. It's quite easy to "fool" the average person by talking about specs. I'd like to see the machine tested against calibrated and much more accurate equipment to see how good it actually is.

neckedit

[quote=stockdam;57500726]I'm not here to rubbish anything but yes resolution is different to accuracy and also to repeatability. It's quite easy to "fool" the average person by talking about specs. I'd like to see the machine tested against calibrated and much more accurate equipment to see how good it actually is.[/quote]

when I first used the trackman we also had a vector at the seminar too and the difference in launch angle and spin rate was marginal, the distance was a lot more acurate with the trackman, the players we were testing where all top amateurs incuding a challange tour player. so thankfully the quality of strike was never really in question. As i said in an earlier post this technology was used by top manufacturers like Titleist for example, during they're testing and demo days for many years, as for implying the cost of something dictates the quality (not in the quoted post) of the product makes no sense to me, as the price of alot of electrical equipment has become seriously more affordable in recent years,eg the very laptop i'm using 7 years ago cost €1500 , now I can buy a more powerful one for a quarter of that.:p

uberwolf

well folks that was interesting anyway, even though I'm not in the market

New balls please may be worth a new thread - I've bought one sleeve of Pro V1's, and then only cause I didn't realise the price

In saying that, I tend not play with scuffed, discovered balls, (I used to, until I became capable of getting through a round with 1 ball!) - I appreciate the little luxury position, but I do have a mortgage. I do scuff a ball during a round, and I would change balls because of it. Wasting my money?

PhilipMarlowe

The softer ball like the prov1 has a nicer feel to play with. It will spin more so stops better on the green, particularly on pitch and chip shots. It's also nicer to putt with.

However, it isn't as durable so will cut and scuff easier. It is much more expensive. The extra spin that stops the ball on the green also means that it will move more sideways too if you slice or hook.
The next 'grade' of ball in titleist is the NXT Tour which will offer a decent balance between 'feel' and durability. Every other major ball manufacturer basically has a similar lineup...

madds

I normally place a couple of orders during the course of a calendar year with friends of mine who take trips to the US. Have 4 doz balls ordered for delivery in 2 weeks time. Normally go for a mix of ProV1's and ProV1x's.

stockdam

I find that most balls scuff up badly after one long wedge shot from a bunker. I get a lot of spin on these long bunker shots (unlike my other shots) and invariably the ball "needs" to be changed.

slingerz

Right lads I'm crap right and I play with any ball i pull out of the bag/water/long grass. And some of these balls after scuff mad if I use my vokey but I wouldnt change the ball because of it. Do ye really think it makes a difference? I dont think it does to be honest, maybe Harrington would notice a difference but i dont think i can blame it for my **** shots somehow!

markkeane

I changed to Ping G5 last year and my handicap has dropped from 12 to 9.
I swear by them. And I noticed lots of Pros are playing them too.

They are so easy to swing. I had them custom fitted too.

I also changed to Ping woods and rescue club.

Yes they are a tad expensive but you will certainly reap the rewards.

There is an adage within the golf game that you shouldn't play blade clubs unless you are a single figure player. Cavity-backed are more forgiving for the rest of us.

MURDO

markkeane wrote: »

I changed to Ping G5 last year and my handicap has dropped from 12 to 9.
I swear by them. And I noticed lots of Pros are playing them too.

They are so easy to swing. I had them custom fitted too.

I also changed to Ping woods and rescue club.

Yes they are a tad expensive but you will certainly reap the rewards.

There is an adage within the golf game that you shouldn't play blade clubs unless you are a single figure player. Cavity-backed are more forgiving for the rest of us.

Have to agree with you there. I tried Blades a few years back playing off 16.

Disaster i can tell you. Alot of thins and slices. Ended up getting Cobra SSi's . And eventually got down to 12 at the mo.

imo. blades are for the buddy who has too much time on their hands and no kiddies to look after. hehe.