Poverty In Ireland?

WindSock

What is poverty defined as in 21st Century Ireland? I hear there is a lot of it here, but I thought poverty meant you are starving, live in a shack if you're lucky and have no access to health or education. As far as I can see, everyone in this country has a right and an ability to access all of these things or am I completly shrouded from seeing the reality with my middle class upbringing?

ChocolateSauce

It seems to be about relative poverty. Relative the the average, if you don't own microwave and can't heat your home you're poor.

stovelid

It's unhelpful to always define poverty in relation to extreme 'third-world' examples. Obviously, the latter is worse, but it doesn't mean that relative deprivation is a myth. It's like saying a punch in the face isn't serious because you don't get beaten to death. And it's often used as a handy way to negate the point that there may be injustice or deprivation in developed world societies.

Obviously, the worst poverty and injustice should be the priority of humankind though.

Nevyn

We will see a rise in people suffering from food, fuel and accomidation poverty.
People won't starve to death but there are places where children go to school with no breakfast and thier diet consistes of cheap food of a high fat content such as chips and pizza and rarely fruit or veg.

Fuel poverty will be on the rise with the increase in electic and gas prices and once again old people and parents with small children will be seeking refuge in shopping cetnres and librarys for several hours a day as they don't have the money to heat thier 'homes' during the day.

Accomidation poverty, people in substandard, moldly, ill heated tiny cramped accomidation paying nearly 50% of thier income on rent, which impacts thier health.

All of the above impacts on health and the abiltiy for children in education to thrive.

There is also the fact there are those who are not well off enough to go the dr when needed or to buy the the things they need but are not poor enough to get welfare assistance with rent/medical card/back to school grants/fuel allowances.

Nevyn

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/oct/01/foodanddrink.oliver

When you are on a low income you buy the kind of food that fills you up most cheaply. What may seem ignorant choices to others are in fact quite rational. Lobstein has calculated the cost of 100 calories of food energy from different types of food. The cheapest way to get your 100 calories is to buy fats, processed starches and sugars. A hundred calories of broccoli costs 51p, but 100 calories of frozen chips only cost 2p. Good-quality sausages that are high in meat but low in fat cost 22p per 100 calories, but "value" fatty ones are only 4p per 100 calories. Poor quality-fish fingers are 12p per 100 calories compared with 29p for ones made with fish fillet that are higher in nutrients. Fresh orange juice costs 38p per 100 calories, while the same dose of energy from sugary orange squash costs 5p.

merrionsq

Relative poverty can mean anything.

Learning to cook and being able to buy the right ingredients in a supermarket would save a lot of people a lot of money. but you can't make people.

I recall reading an article about why a childs success in life is linked to your economic background. But one commentator mentioned that reading to your child, and not smoking and drinking during pregnancy doesn't cost anything.

themadchef

I heard a radio programme a year or two ago that really stuck in my mind.

A mother described poverty as : buying the cheapest bread you could find and leaving it in the press for a day or two....Why? if the bread way too fresh the kids would eat too much of it and she couldint afford to buy more!

Now that womans words chilled me to the bone. As it would any parent.

Who really knows what poverty people are living in.

stovelid

merrionsq wrote: »

But one commentator mentioned that reading to your child, and not smoking and drinking during pregnancy doesn't cost anything.

A commentator who would no doubt characterize relative poverty as their local restaurant not having a serious wine list.

tallaght01

Absoloute and relative poverty are 2 different stats that you can measure. They're never intended to be indicative of what a person or a family needs to live. They can be pretty arbitrary measurements.

Poverty is usually measured in purely financial terms. There are different earning thresholds, depending on whether you're an individual with just yourself to worry about, or depending on how many dependents you have.

The thresholds change each year in line with inflation/consumer price index changes.

They also sometimes seperate long term poverty, and short term poverty.

I don't put huge faith in poverty stats at a single point in time. The trend is your friend, as they say :P

BUt moreso than poverty, in a developed country, inequality is a bigger predictor of poor health in some ways. You can measure inequality by looking at something called a gini coefficient. It's a statistical measurement of what proportion of the population own what proportion of the material wealth in a country. It relates reasonably well to the health indices.

Ireland does OK in the inequality tables. We're much better than the US, and a little better than the UK.

I'm not sure what poverty data the Irish government are publishing these days. But bear in mind that there's different ways to measure poverty, and the government is likely to use whatever statistical meathod gives the lowest figure when they're in power.

tallaght01

merrionsq wrote: »

Relative poverty can mean anything.

Learning to cook and being able to buy the right ingredients in a supermarket would save a lot of people a lot of money. but you can't make people.

I recall reading an article about why a childs success in life is linked to your economic background. But one commentator mentioned that reading to your child, and not smoking and drinking during pregnancy doesn't cost anything.

The "right" ingredients can be really expensive.

Reading to your child is free, indeed. I buy my godson books regularly. But when you're young, the best books tend to be interactive colourful books. These are the ones that really stimulate the younger kids. But these books can be really really pricey. You also have more time to read to your kids when you only have one or two kids. Poorer people tend to have more children, plus they have them earlier, when they're probably less equipped themselves to deal with them.

Again, giving up smoking and drinking is much easier when you're living a more comfortable lifestyle in every other way. Also, if you're middle class, you're much less liekly to be a smoker in the first place, or a problem drinker.

It's very easy to criticise people, but the reality can be very difficult for parents if they're struggling.

mikemac

I'd agree books are expensive. OT but I had to buy law books once and they cost €110 each :eek:

But all libraries have a kids section with colorful and interactive books. And most don't even charge to join, I joined a Dublin city council one last month, cost me nothing except 20 seconds to complete a form.

Of course if you are in a rural area and car less (is that a word?) then this will be more difficult.

Maybe these issues need to be highlighted more. Like the OP, I don't realy see it going on so I don't realy understand the issue

brianthebard

Chances are if you are living in poverty, you either have a poorly paid job so no time to bring kids anywhere, or are on the dole, or are illiterate (given the high percentage in Ireland this is very possible). So there aren't many reasons why you would see yourself going to the library. Then if you are really concerned about spending money, walking to the library involves being in town for a while, where you might need to get food for the kids, or they might want to go to a shop, and could end up costing much more than you expected.

The dole is supposed to equal what, the poverty, or the industrial wage?

brianthebard

merrionsq wrote: »

Relative poverty can mean anything.

Learning to cook and being able to buy the right ingredients in a supermarket would save a lot of people a lot of money. but you can't make people.

I recall reading an article about why a childs success in life is linked to your economic background. But one commentator mentioned that reading to your child, and not smoking and drinking during pregnancy doesn't cost anything.

Did you read the excerpt Thaedyal posted? I know how to cook, but even if veg seems to be inexpensive, per serving it often is. When I'm on a budget I'm more likely to be eating dunnes pasta, sausages and sauce, than fresh fruit and veg. Its not simply a question of knowing how to cook or not.

dresden8

Oddly enough, when poverty is based on your position relative to everyone else, more people out of work will lower the median income level and serve to lift those who are already in poverty out of it.

In othere words, you can only be poor when most other people are doing better than you. When everybody is eating out of rubbish bins, there is no relative poverty.

RealEstateKing

there is no poverty in Ireland at all.

Poverty is wondering where you're next meal is coming from, not "Can I afford a PlaySation 3"?

There is nobody in Ireland that wonders where their next meal is coming from, unless they are spending the money the earn (whether from the dole or a minimum wage job), on drugs, alcohol and cigarettes.

Even the Dole is enough money to buy several weeks worth of food for an entire family.

In most countries in the world there are people who work 16 hour days and still can only just feed themselves. In Ireland thats not the case.

Poverty in Ireland is largely social: Growing up in a siuation in which nobody around you gives a **** about anything beyond the next fag, the next beer or the next joint. Where people dont think twice about having kids when their 16: In economic terms the difference between me and one of those people is only a matter of about 40 quid: Whereas the difference in our social background is huge: My parents love me, I care about the world, I read books, and I didnt have to worry about getting the **** kicked out of me at school and so on.

djpbarry

RealEstateKing wrote: »

there is no poverty in Ireland at all.

According to the Central Statistics Office, 6.9% of the population were in consistent poverty in 2006:

"This means having an income below 60% of the median and also experiencing enforced deprivation. This means being on a low income and not being able to afford basic necessities such as new clothes, not having the money to buy food such as meat or fish, not being able to heat your home, or having to go into debt to pay ordinary household bills."
http://www.cpa.ie/povertyinireland/whatispoverty.htm

A further 17% were at risk of poverty in the same year:

"This means having an income that is below 60% of the median income (the median is the mid-point on the scale of incomes in Ireland). In 2006, that was an income of below €202.49 a week for an adult."
http://www.cpa.ie/povertyinireland/whatispoverty.htm

Rev Hellfire

Its perfectly natural that in a rapidly developing country that some people will get left behind, either through their own choice, bad luck or lack of ability. Its sad, I cried.

Though I must admit I find it hard to believe that a person in Ireland who avails of the support structures ie. various welfare systems could meet the requirements for poverty as set out in the quote above. That said I could see how a number might slip between the cracks since no system is perfect. But 7% seems too high in my view, though its hard to argue with statistics.

With the levels of immigration we had in recent times, with the exception of those with disabilities jobs where there for the taking, and if people lack the will to lift themselves up I don't see any reason why society should be obliged to do it for them.

sorella

The real problems with poverty here in Ireland begin when the money coming in, from work or Social welfare, is being spent on drink and drugs, rather than on food and fuel; especially where there are children in the family.

Who arrive at school with no breakfast inside them.

Ask Vincent de Paul about that. They go to great lengths to make sure that any grant they give is in kind rather than in cash.

tallaght01

sorella wrote: »

The real problems with poverty here in Ireland begin when the money coming in, from work or Social welfare, is being spent on drink and drugs, rather than on food and fuel; especially where there are children in the family.

Who arrive at school with no breakfast inside them.

Ask Vincent de Paul about that. They go to great lengths to make sure that any grant they give is in kind rather than in cash.

There's surely a lot more to poverty than just booze and drugs.

Plus drug and alcohol addiction are symptomatic of wider problems, with lack of education, and poverty in the first place.