Ireland Munster Players will not play against NZ

Hazys

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2008/0929/ireland_munster.html

I'm very disappointed because i believe Munster would have had better chance of beating NZ than Ireland would.

I completely understand the IRFU's position as they pay their wages but I was hoping for a proper rematch. At least they are informing us well in advance because since i found out about this game i have been dreaming for a full Munster team rekindling the last game...I'm a bit sad now

That game was the biggest in Munster's history and would this game would have been unbelievable.

I presume the players would have wanted to play this game instead of playing with Ireland just because their would be more history involved and this is all they would have heard about for years as a Munster player.

slugger145

Hazys wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2008/0929/ireland_munster.html

I'm very disappointed because i believe Munster would have had better chance of beating NZ than Ireland would.

I completely understand the IRFU's position as they pay their wages but I was hoping for a proper rematch. At least they are informing us well in advance because since i found out about this game i have been dreaming for a full Munster team rekindling the last game...I'm a bit sad now

That game was the biggest in Munster's history and would this game would have been unbelievable.

I presume the players would have wanted to play this game instead of playing with Ireland just because their would be more history involved and this is all they would have heard about for years as a Munster player.

ridiculous post

bleg

no surprise or arguments from me. ranking is more important. it will be a second string nz team too. makes perfect sense

bleg

i wouldn't understand if the munster rugby branch or players resisted this. the branch don't want the national side with a tough draw for the 2011 wc and the players certainly don't want to be playing against two top tier sides.

buck65

I agree with the OP. And most of my colleagues at work said the same too this morning. But we are Munster people so anyone outside the province might see this as ridiculous - I don't.
A pity we won't be full strength. Of course the Irish team should get first preference.
Still we have a decent team in reserve and I imagine the ABs will be midweek level so could be good.

Amz

I really can't believe anyone would be surprised by this! This match is just a marketing ploy by Adidas, it's to nobody's benefit but the Munster branch possibly and Adidas. The stupid money being bandied about for tickets is proof of that.

Why anyone would think either side would put out a full strength squad, for this exhibition game, is beyond me.

I think "lol" sums it up for me.

Heroditas

Amz wrote: »

Why anyone would think either side would put out a full strength squad, for this exhibition game, is beyond me.

People new to the game who fail to have even a tiniest grasp of the bigger picture.

Hazys

slugger145 wrote: »

ridiculous post

Please explain

Zzippy

For explanation see posts #2, 3, 4 and 5. The Irish team comes first, they have an important game a few days later with ranking points at stake, the players are centrally contracted to the IRFU, what more explanation do you need?
Yes it would be nice to see a full Munster team take on the ABs, but that was never going to happen. Its not 1978 anymore...

buck65

Amz wrote: »

I really can't believe anyone would be surprised by this! This match is just a marketing ploy by Adidas, it's to nobody's benefit but the Munster branch possibly and Adidas. The stupid money being bandied about for tickets is proof of that.

Why anyone would think either side would put out a full strength squad, for this exhibition game, is beyond me.

I think "lol" sums it up for me.

I take it you won't be tuning in so?
What exactly does the stupid money being bandied about prove? There was stupid money being bandied about for Celine Dion tickets as well. It proves there is major interest in the best club side in Europe playing the best team in the world.
This means alot to Munster people as we have a tradition of playing and beating the best teams in the world and touring sides regardless of who sponsors it.
Your dismissive attitude is insulting.
Country vs Club/province is not a new phenomena created by Adidas.
It is just a pity that we will not be at full strength for it, obviously country comes first. I dont think anybody is "surprised" just a bit disappointed.

buck65

Heroditas wrote: »

People new to the game who fail to have even a tiniest grasp of the bigger picture.

What an absurd generalisation.

JWAD

Yes, international rugby is the pinnacle of the sport.

That is why the squad players have been kept in-camp by the coach and his staff.
The RWC is what matters here. Not just results per se but margins in these games to ensure ranking points towards RWC2011.

I don't know why people are acting surprised. It was never going to be any other way.

buck65

JWAD wrote: »

Yes, international rugby is the pinnacle of the sport.

That is why the squad players have been kept in-camp by the coach and his staff.
The RWC is what matters here. Not just results per se but margins in these games to ensure ranking points towards RWC2011.

I don't know why people are acting surprised. It was never going to be any other way.

Who exactly is surprised?

Tim Robbins

The IRFU pay most of the Munster player's wages. Without the IRFU there would be no Munster Heineken Cups, no miracle matches etc. All the top players would have left and be plying the trade in England and France.

Rugby isn't big enough here for any of the provinces to be independently run. They are all propped up by the IRFU and international Rugby.

It will probably be a New Zealand 3rds anyway, with so many top class New Zealand players not eligible for New Zealand since they play abroad. This includes Doug Howlett.

bleg

buck65 wrote: »

This means alot to Munster people as we have a tradition of playing and beating the best teams in the world and touring sides regardless of who sponsors it.

of course it means a lot to us. however could you imagine your disappointment if ireland were drawn in a pool against two teams out of the current top 7? the disappointment of losing to the all blacks would be completely insignificant for me.

ireland deserve to be in the top 8 of world rugby for the next world cup and we need to prove it this autumn.

if ireland weren't in such a precarious position in the standings i would love to see our 1st string team line up against the all blacks and i'd say kidney would have even released them.

buck65

Bleg I totally understand your point and agree with it, my posts are more aimed at the people who are questioning why the match (Munster v All Blacks) goes ahead in the first place.

JWAD

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The IRFU pay most of the Munster player's wages

Seeing as Munster Rugby is a branch of the IRFU, the fact that the Munster staff are on the IRFU payroll of course makes sense.

However, this is not the issue. The issue is that the national team is the pinnacle of Irish rugby and takes precedence in an instance when basically, 'points mean prizes' for Ireland.
No two ways about it.

JWAD

buck65 wrote: »

Who exactly is surprised?

Obviously, the original poster.

Hazys

JWAD wrote: »

Obviously, the original poster.

Suprised: No

Disappointed: Yes

Like i said, i understand the reasons why there will be no Munster players. Im just disappointed because since i first heard of this game a few months back I was hoping (not expecting) it would be the full Munster team Vs a full All Blacks team.

This game would have been as big as the all the Heiniken Cup Finals for the team and the fans, its a bit sad that this wont be the case.

Its a pity that they couldnt schedule it for a week after the Argentina game or something. I dont think Munster would mind rescheduling a Magners League for a once in a lifetime "exhibition" game like this.

Heroditas

bleg wrote: »

and i'd say kidney would have even released them.

Don't kid yourself. His job is to make sure the Irish national team wins games. There is no such thing as a "friendly" in international rugby, they play tests. We've never beaten the All Blacks and he'll want to be the first coach to achieve this.

JWAD

Hazys wrote: »

Its a pity that they couldnt schedule it for a week after the Argentina game or something. I dont think Munster would mind rescheduling a Magners League for a once in a lifetime "exhibition" game like this.

Munster's availability wouldn't be the issue in that case. The NZ tour party would have had more of a say. Getting a selection from their squad to play this game would have been difficult enough.

Stev_o

Hazys wrote: »

Suprised: No

Disappointed: Yes

Like i said, i understand the reasons why there will be no Munster players. Im just disappointed because since i first heard of this game a few months back I was hoping (not expecting) it would be the full Munster team Vs a full All Blacks team.

This game would have been as big as the all the Heiniken Cup Finals for the team and the fans, its a bit sad that this wont be the case.

Its a pity that they couldnt schedule it for a week after the Argentina game or something. I dont think Munster would mind rescheduling a Magners League for a once in a lifetime "exhibition" game like this.

Im making a presumption here that the match is a mid week match with the Ireland match being that weekend if it is so then you wouldnt see NZ field a full strength XV wouldnt make sense.

It ll end up being a A vs A game probably in the end.

RugbyFanatic

Does anyone here honestly believe Munster would beat a full strength NZ team? They would be slaughtered we have a far better chance with the national side but even then with the better quality of players avaliable it is still unlikely.

I'd say a weakened Munster team have a better chance of beating a weakened NZ team than both teams at full strength anyways.

themont85

In 78 it was a mid week filler for the All Blacks too, so not much has changed historically. Completely agree with Aimz, this is a marketing ploy. The 'Adidas Cup' is a smart way of trying to get Munster fans money from their pockets. I'd expect to see a hell of a lot of memoribilia floating around before the game.

In saying that while for the All Blacks, Adidas and even the Munster Branch this is a great money making scheme, i have no doubt it will be a great occasion in Thomand.

buck65

It's ThomOND

buck65

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Does anyone here honestly believe Munster would beat a full strength NZ team? They would be slaughtered we have a far better chance with the national side but even then with the better quality of players avaliable it is still unlikely.

I'd say a weakened Munster team have a better chance of beating a weakened NZ team than both teams at full strength anyways.

When was the last time you saw a full strength - up for it Munster team slaughtered?
As Munster contribute at least Flannery, Horan, Hayes, POC,DOC, MOD (1st sub), Leamy Wallace, O Gara -to the Irish team- 8 first team starters plus 3 NZers(arguably better than our 12,13,14) plus Earls, O Leary it is hard to see where your logic comes from.
How exactly would Ireland have a far better chance?

JWAD

buck65 wrote: »

When was the last time you saw a full strength - up for it Munster team slaughtered?
As Munster contribute at least Flannery, Horan, Hayes, POC,DOC, MOD (1st sub), Leamy Wallace, O Gara -to the Irish team- 8 first team starters plus 3 NZers(arguably better than our 12,13,14) plus Earls, O Leary it is hard to see where your logic comes from.
How exactly would Ireland have a far better chance?

So what? A friendly in a fixture that awards no caps to the visiting team at Thomond Pk pales in comparison to an international that matters at Croke Park.
There's a pecking order here and the Munster Branch of the IRFU are not at the top of it.

buck65

JWAD what exactly is your argument?
Are you STILL debating about the release of players here?
I think you'll find that the discussion has moved on. Actually no-one is arguing that they should be available at all if you read back.

Crash

buck65 wrote: »

When was the last time you saw a full strength - up for it Munster team slaughtered?
As Munster contribute at least Flannery, Horan, Hayes, POC,DOC, MOD (1st sub), Leamy Wallace, O Gara -to the Irish team- 8 first team starters plus 3 NZers(arguably better than our 12,13,14) plus Earls, O Leary it is hard to see where your logic comes from.
How exactly would Ireland have a far better chance?

Be realistic - even an A all blacks team if firing can run tries in on most club teams. Munster would make it hard, but honestly.

Hazys

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Does anyone here honestly believe Munster would beat a full strength NZ team? They would be slaughtered we have a far better chance with the national side but even then with the better quality of players avaliable it is still unlikely.

I'd say a weakened Munster team have a better chance of beating a weakened NZ team than both teams at full strength anyways.

National side has a better chance, Why? I can only think the opposite, obviously I'm biased, but i dont think Im too far off the mark.

The pack will mostly be the same, plus Nick Williams (I think he'll be then?). 9 & 10 mostly the same also. Then 11-15 adv Munster over Ireland.

Plus Munster have a lot more intangibles over Ireland:

• By far better home crowd
• Munster have the ability to pull off a miracle match, Ireland don't (Cant remember the last time Ireland stepped up & won a crunch match)
• A much more settled team than Ireland
• A lot more riding on this for the Munster players than Ireland due to the history involved

I'm not saying Munster would have been favourites but they would have given them a fair old run for their money. Slaughtered...you must be joking.

JWAD

What a strange argument. Its like an Ali v Tyson debate in a Barbers shop.
Hazys, as for Ireland never winning a crunch match, you would appear to have a very short memory indeed.
I would also put pre-RWC ranking & qualification down as being a helluva lot more important than the other game in question and thankfully so has Dec and his fellow staff.

Zzippy

Lads, we know Munster are a great team and all, but they're not that feckin good. A full strength AB team would put 40 points on a full strength Munster team. IMO of course... and thats non-biased.

JWAD

Zzippy wrote: »

Lads, we know Munster are a great team and all, but they're not that feckin good. A full strength AB team would put 40 points on a full strength Munster team. IMO of course... and thats non-biased.

Well, the first thing you'd do if NZ coach in a "crunch" version of a hypothetical Munster v All Blacks game would be to call Mafi, Tipoki and Howlett to the squad!

Hazys

JWAD wrote: »

Hazys, as for Ireland never winning a crunch match, you would appear to have a very short memory indeed.

I guess i do since i cant remember the last time Ireland won a match that they weren't favourites in, in the past 3 or 4 years.

Are you talking about last season's performance in the WC or our past 3 or 4 6N campaigns? bcos i dont consider beating a poor England team that we would have been favourites against as an unbelievable acomplishment.

Hazys

JWAD wrote: »

Well, the first thing you'd do if NZ coach in a "crunch" version of a hypothetical Munster v All Blacks game would be to call Mafi, Tipoki and Howlett to the squad!

As we continue to go completly off topic, in a hypothetical Munster v All Blacks game, I think people would consider that move by the AB coach as a completely petty move and an insult to Mafi, Tipoki and Howlett, so it wouldnt happen.

JWAD

Hazys wrote: »

I guess i do since i cant remember the last time Ireland won a match that they weren't favourites in, in the past 3 or 4 years.

Are you talking about last season's performance in the WC or our past 3 or 4 6N campaigns? bcos i dont consider beating a poor England team that we would have been favourites against as an unbelievable acomplishment.

Well since you're going to apply some sort of Quality Control seal on the games, lets start with England in 6N 2004 and 2006 shall we and work from there?

JWAD

Hazys wrote: »

As we continue to go completly off topic, in a hypothetical Munster v All Blacks game, I think people would consider that move by the AB coach as a completely petty move and an insult to Mafi, Tipoki and Howlett, so it wouldnt happen.

Its not petty if they're good enough to make their national team. Remember the pecking order I mentioned earlier? International then provincial/state then club

anonymous_joe

Hazys wrote: »

As we continue to go completly off topic, in a hypothetical Munster v All Blacks game, I think people would consider that move by the AB coach as a completely petty move and an insult to Mafi, Tipoki and Howlett, so it wouldnt happen.

Tipoki's too old, so's Howlett and Mafi wasn't good enough for the AB's, which is why he's in Ireland.

The AB's would beat Munster just like they've beaten Ireland. No-one seems to give the team credit for how close they've come to beating NZ in the past couple of attempts.

There is no mythical factor that gives Munster players superhuman strength. They're a very good team that have always been predominantly forward based. The most successful teams in club rugby tend to be the ones who plough ahead through the forwards, that's why you've Munster in the ML and Leicester in the Premiership. You could even dare suggest similar about the Crusaders.

Hazys

JWAD wrote: »

Well since you're going to apply some sort of Quality Control seal on the games, lets start with England in 6N 2004 and 2006 shall we and work from there?

Yes Im applying the "Quality Control" system that the IRFU set froward in their strategic planning for Irish rugby team over the past 4 years and which they have done for the next 4 years.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/283_13048.php

Ireland have failed failed to meet their goals for the past 4 year not to mention exceed them while Munster have. This is the point I'm making.

Hazys

JWAD wrote: »

Its not petty if they're good enough to make their national team. Remember the pecking order I mentioned earlier? International then provincial/state then club

The point you were making is, if it was a real crunch match the AB coach would just take the NZ players off the Munster team just to weaken Munster because they wont be in the side that faces Ireland this November.

That would be an insult to the Mafi, Tipoki and Howlett since they are only getting on the team just to spite Munster, thats why it would be considered petty and wouldn't happen.

Thanks for pointing out the pecking order again for no apparent reason.

JWAD

Hazys wrote: »

Yes Im applying the "Quality Control" system that the IRFU set froward in their strategic planning for Irish rugby team over the past 4 years and which they have done for the next 4 years

No you're not. You said Ireland hadn't won a crunch game that they were not expected to win over the past 3 or 4 seasons when in fact they did.

Hazys wrote: »

Ireland have failed failed to meet their goals for the past 4 year not to mention exceed them while Munster have. This is the point I'm making.

You mean the Munster branch of the IRFU have? Well done to them, of course.

JWAD

Hazys wrote: »

The point you were making is, if it was a real crunch match the AB coach would just take the NZ players off the Munster team just to weaken Munster because they wont be in the side that faces Ireland this November

???
I think you're just in the mood for arguing for argument's sake hence the amateur psychology telling me what I'm saying.
Life's too short for this so vær så god...........the floor is all yours...........:rolleyes:

Hazys

JWAD wrote: »

???
I think you're just in the mood for arguing for argument's sake hence the amateur psychology telling me what I'm saying.
Life's too short for this so vær så god...........the floor is all yours...........:rolleyes:

Damit

I was just going to take the moral high ground, before you got there.

Obviously this was going nowhere. These are the points i was making and i'll leave it at that:

As Munster fan im very disappointed that this game will not be the game that I thought it would have been a few months ago

I think Munster have a better chance against New Zealand than Ireland do. I dont understand why people think this is so crazy because a province might be better than its country i.e. Man U over England. Especially considering the fact that the core of this Munster team has been training day in day out for over 6 years now while a relatively 'new' irish team while play under a new coach, tactics and only train for a week or two b4 the game.

buck65

Hazys you're right everyone else is ....Leinster

JWAD

Hazys wrote: »

As Munster fan im very disappointed that this game will not be the game that I thought it would have been a few months ago

It has never been anything other than the game in Thomond Park between Munster and a New Zealand XV three days after one international agains the All Blacks and four days before the next international against Argentina.

Amz

Hazys, you seem like a very, very naive Munster "fan". The game was only stuck in to the schedule a few months after the Autumn Internationals had been announced.

If some of the obvious crap that's crept into this thread keeps up, it won't have long to live. The only reason I've left it open this long is because some of the comments beggar belief in their naiveté.

thehighground

Amz wrote: »

Hazys, you seem like a very, very naive Munster "fan". The game was only stuck in to the schedule a few months after the Autumn Internationals had been announced.

If some of the obvious crap that's crept into this thread keeps up, it won't have long to live. The only reason I've left it open this long is because some of the comments beggar belief in their naiveté.

I heard that playing Munster in Thomond was the price for the IRFU vote to stage the next World Cup in NZ. As the ABs tour every second year here at least, that wouldn't be much of a dealbreaker for the vote

I find it strange that people find it difficult to think it possible that a full-strength Munster team couldn't give as good account of themselves as the full Irish team with Howlett (62 AB caps) still on top of his game judging from his incredible try in the RDS a few days ago. Tipoki has been on the winning AB Maori side that beat the Lions which BOD/Darcy played on (the game that Darcy speared Tipoki). Mafi v. Paddy Wallace (at the moment) - really? The only position that Ireland would/could be stronger at the moment is at Fullback. The thing you also have to remember is that Munster have actually beaten the ABs (and it wasn't a micky mouse AB team either as there is no such thing!)

Now, can you explain to me how Ireland could do so much better than Munster against the ABs instead of making nonsense accusations of provincial bias/naiveté without backing them up?

And for the record, I'd say there are a couple of clubs in the NH that could give the ABs a game (Toulouse / Clermont both come quickly to mind) and I don't think the ABs would take them lightly - a few heads would have to roll if they lost and the ABs don't handle pressure well!

buck65

Your post is waaaay too rational , you are going to get the thread closed be careful:eek:

Crash

thehighground wrote: »

The thing you also have to remember is that Munster have actually beaten the ABs (and it wasn't a micky mouse AB team either as there is no such thing!)

The thing YOU have to remember is that past victory, when its 30 years ago, cannot be used as a justification for how a current team would win. Its a pointless point.

premierstone

Going Forward wrote: »

The thing YOU have to remember is that past victory, when its 30 years ago, cannot be used as a justification for how a current team would win. Its a pointless point.

Quite the opposite actually, club rugby has evolved at a far greater rate than international rugby in the intervening 30 years and if anything munsters chances now would be greater than they should have been 30 years ago

thehighground

Going Forward wrote: »

The thing YOU have to remember is that past victory, when its 30 years ago, cannot be used as a justification for how a current team would win. Its a pointless point.

It an important psychological edge to have to know that it can be done. How come Ireland hasn't won a 6Ns in 50 years? Certainly should have in the last couple of years if not back in the mid-80s. Most of that Munster 78 team couldn't get on the Irish team, and if they did, they had very few caps. This Munster team has a fair few international caps between them (and if Tipoki & Mafi came from any other country, they too would be regular internationals).