3 mile novice chase anyone?

rynners

hi guys,
Have only posted on here couple of times before. Once regarding a horse I own called "Archaeologist". He's a 6 yr old gelding now, never raced due to some setbacks. Half brother to more than a stroll and has chaser written all over him.
He was with Noel Meade for 2 years and is now with Paul Gilligan (athenry), we (paul and I) were looking at a point in loughrea for him on 12th Oct. but he picked up a stone bruise a few days ago and might not be 100% as a result by then.
I'd say he's a 3 mile chaser out and out and am prepared to give a point to point a miss and just head for a novice chase. Say 2.5 mile at naas or navan.
He needs a galloping track and soft ground.
Does anyone have any advice? am I being stupid to miss a point to point with him? does anyone know of any good longer distance novice chases coming up? I know p.g. uses has a good relationship with a particular jockey and don't really want to cut someone out but is there any jock i really should have up on him who'll give tons of info as to what sort of ability he has and what sort of way I should go with him?
thanks for any advice
rynners

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

rynners

I know paul well as went to school with him, and you're very accurate in your advice.. I do have faith in him. Though of course I also have my own opinions as to where I want to go with him (amounts to National glory! lol). Would love to throw him into a top novice chase though and see what he'd do. thanks for replying.

punchestown

First off get on to the Racing Post and get them to update the trainer!
Secondly can I ask why you dont enter the horse in a bumper. Surely a good way to blow away the cobwebs and get the horse fit before tackling the bigger obstacles?

rynners

Hi Punchestown.
The racing post will update as soon as he is entered in a race under Paul Gilligan. He was entered under N. Meade for a couple but was balloted out and that's why he even shows up on the racing post.
Meade told me that he wasn't fast enough to win a bumper but suggested that he'd win a 2.5 mile hurdle at somewhere like Naas or Navan first time out. He has the complete look of a chaser though so am just going to bypass hurdle races for the moment (i presume I can always stick him in one in the future). He jumps brilliantly (both meade and gilligan told me this). Spoke with Paul a few minutes ago.. he suggests that he needs 3 miles, given that meade suggested a 2.5 mile hurdle with a stiff finish as a starting point Paul has agreed to look for a 2.5 mile novice chase at Navan or Naas or a 3 mile anywhere else that has a galloping type track. Hope this makes sense.
Maybe I'm making a mistake bypassing hurdling, but all told I've put over 70k into the horse and just want to see what I have at what should be his best disipline.
rynners

rynners

P.S. as for blowing away cobwebs and fitness Paul will bring him for a racecourse gallop prior to, so no worries on that score. He worked at thurles racetrack around may and bet some horse that Paul has that won at Listowel festival... next day he showed up lame, turns out he had loose chips in knee and got operated on (surgeon told me these were about 2 years old).. so far he seems to have come back 100% from it... thankfully.

wack

Hi,

I fully appreciate your reasons for considering all options. I followed the advice of a trainer this year on a similar matter and it cost me dearly.

I think it is very important to you go with your gut feeling. However Paul is top notch and I would suggest that his view point makes up 90% of the reason for your choice.
Breeding wise I would be surprised if he would not be a usefull 2m4-2m6 chaser. If you decide to give him a P2P run, be selective on the course to gaurd against doing any avoidable damage to him but in the mean time Paul could be on the lookout for a suitable chase.

Best of Luck with him,

Paddy

Bluetonic

rynners wrote: »

Maybe I'm making a mistake bypassing hurdling, but all told I've put over 70k into the horse and just want to see what I have at what should be his best disipline.
rynners

Where did the 70k come from? Staggering amount considering he's unraced and the sale price in 2005 was around 11k.

rynners

Cullinane bought him for that at august tatersalls. I bought jan 06 for 27k from hanleys yard in galway. 2 years full training in navan, vets fees, hospital fees and gilligan training fees this year. about 70k is right.

rynners

If you read a previous reply you can work out why it's full training fees and unraced (think outside the box for it.. i was living in russia during this time). Cannot expand on it, sorry.

Bluetonic

Do you think you overpaid at 27k or was he undervalued the previous August at 11k-ish?

Why the price hike?

Just interested in it so hope you don't think I'm prying into your personal affairs.

rynners

m cullinane obviously bought him to sell on for a profit. he had say 6 months in breakers yard (i presume he was there from aug-jan/feb) and that would have cost a few quid. I didn't know he cost say 11k in august. However he was presented to me for sale for 26k (excuse error of 27k) so i got N Meade to come fown and have a look. he said "i could show you plenty of other horses for sale but I think this one is terrific value for the money". ... my specific requirements were for a horse whose breeding and everything else would suggest he'll be running at graded level in career. I know no one can guarantee ability but one can make an educated guess..

Bluetonic

Cheers, let us know where you enter him and how it works out for you.

Best of luck.

rynners

He's entered up for tipp in a weeks time but fully expect to be ballotted out.

corban

rynners wrote: »

He's entered up for tipp in a weeks time but fully expect to be ballotted out.

best of luck, i'd love to be in your position, i hope it works out well for u...

Bluetonic

A few entries anyhow...

Archaeologist (IRE)

5 day entry at Kilbeggan on Friday 10th Oct, -> http://www.irish-racing.com/v4card079200810101705.htm
5 day entry at Fairyhouse on Saturday 11th Oct, -> http://www.irish-racing.com/v4card088200810111425.htm
5 day entry at Fairyhouse on Saturday 11th Oct, -> http://www.irish-racing.com/v4card088200810111605.htm

rynners

I know yeah ... nearly peeing myself with excitement. Think i'll call them up and see what's the chances of getting into the fairyhouse chase.

rynners

not sure if i'd be able to make it up myself though... wife expecting baby in next few days (due 12th)...

Bluetonic

rynners wrote: »

not sure if i'd be able to make it up myself though... wife expecting baby in next few days (due 12th)...

Sell the baby, keep the horse

rynners

update,
went out to see him do a piece of work this morning (he does his hard work tuesday and friday morning).. he worked against a grey who's a decent type.. anyhow he worked on the outside of this fella (makes a big difference as gallop is a circle of about 1/3 mile long.. by the end of 2x4 rounds he was up with the other horse and pulling the jocks arms out to go on...
note that the horse he worked against (i noticed) was in the slow group last week so he was probably just coming into fullish fitness..
still though.. my lad had to work twice as hard and was looking to go on..
totally happy with that
as a post script he was due for a racecourse gallop this evening but it was callled off.. he needs that gallop before running i'd say.

rynners

Update:
He's balloted out of roscommon (9th) and entered in both beginners chase and grade 3 novice chase at punchestown on the 16th. if he makes it into the beginners chase he'll probably run in that... if not he'll definately run in the grade 3 novice (all going well). Paul said it's a huge ask for the grade 3 first time out but that he wouldn't disgrace himself.... he'll not run in either if the ground is any better that g/s i'd say...

rynners

Update Update.
Roscommon abandoned where my lad was to be balloted out number 9... so I don't think he'll survive a ballot for punchestown.. looks like we're starting off in a grade 3!!! omg! hope he doesn't look too much of a donkey. :eek:
hey.. he who dares wins!

rynners

Hi all,
Can I ask... is it just that the posts are crap or is this forum on it's last legs? Not a single post over the whole of horse racing yesterday (a saturday!)..
Here, you have an owner telling you he's running his horse for the first time in a grade 3 chase... at least someone call me a fruitcake! Surely the topic is worthy of some sort of feedback...
rynners

Pj!

This place is fooked rynners! Most folk go to letsbet for another irish forum. Its a mainly gambling though. Go to somewhere like theracingforum.co.uk and you'll get good chat with knowledgable folk. It's english based but great topics about the actual sport and not just gambling.

rynners

it's a pity that isn't it? ... i mean you log on here and see 10 people viewing tiddlywinks or something such and nobody on the racing..
what drove the crowd?

corban

in my opinion, there's a conflict with horse racing and gambling forum..surely they should be tied in together in some form....

in relation to archaeologist, you have a very good trainer and i would let him place your horse for the first couple of races till u find its level... or come up with a plan...

i cant wait to see how he goes, best of luck keep us posted

rynners

Paul's a good trainer, no doubt. And in an ideal world he'd be starting off in a beginners chase. He's so far down the ballot though after tipp and roscommon being called off that it'd be some time next month before he gets his run. Paul isn't worried about his jumping and reckons he'll be just about ok in the race.. however there are 2 things that worry us both.. there's the possibility that he might not jump off (which is a bit of a silly worry. and worried for embarrasment's sake) and that he could be outpaced early and lose heart (a possibility given his inexperience). Either of those would be a bit of a disaster and we'd be making a quiet exit.
However, on the other hand, if the ground comes up bottomless I'll be putting my money on him to make the frame, and there's a good chance that it will be given the current going (sft/heavy) and the forcast for tuesday/wednesday). I've gone through the form of the others and bar one they've all underperformed by a long way on heavy. My lad on the other hand we know will relish it (he works on very deep sand) and has always given the impression he'll be a bad ground horse. he stays well, can carry 11 stone no bother as he's a BIG horse and is working fantastically the last 2 weeks. Given his odds will be big I'm sure I think there could be value in catching some of them by surprise. Just my opinion, and I think Paul kind of sees my point..

Bluetonic

rynners wrote: »

it's a pity that isn't it? ... i mean you log on here and see 10 people viewing tiddlywinks or something such and nobody on the racing..
what drove the crowd?

A lot of the crowd from two years ago moved to other forums when they were set up.

It's a pity as this forum used to be great, now it's filled with pointless tipping thread which add nothing.

Thanks for all the updates, they make for good reading.

cson

Jesus thats a very strong race he's entered in for Punchestown.

rynners

I know yeah, and it's far from deliberate to start him off so high.. but you know, it's only about 300 squids to enter and I've a fatal impatience to see what he can do.. no doubt he could end up looking worse than he is...
but he is working brilliantly, the ground could just be up his street, the galloping track is ideal..distance mightened be or the lack of a stiff finish (perhaps needed).
There's a chance that it'll end in embarrassment. But you know, I've my 3rd child arriving within the next 48 hours or so, I don't get embarrassed and if I never stuck my neck out I'd never have got to own a horse or marry a woman who is so far out of my league it doesn't bare thinking about..perhaps that should be in reverse order. Six months ago, when his knee injury came to light I was advised by trainer to cut my losses and get rid.. I didn't and paid for the op because it was the right thing to do (this horse had 2 years of non stop injuries including pin firing)... now I'm certain that he's come back stronger, happier and is working better than he ever showed up in Noel Meade's place. and he told me he could win a 2m4f hurdle first time out..
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread...

cson

Definitely, respect to you for following your ambitions. Theres nothing quite like watching half a tonne of animal flying round a track wearing your colours. Its something I hope to do someday.

Its quite a start for him but he'll more than likely come on for the run. Trafford Lad would be my fancy for that race tbh, Kalderon is very good horse also. At least you'll know where you stand with him afterwards.

rynners

If you watch closely you just might see half a tonne of man legging it to his car...
Trafford Lad I'm not sure qualifies for the race (i think Paul said it was him who no longer qualified as a novice.. mind you I could be mistaken in the name and he in his facts). Kalderon acts on soft, but on heavy he has way underperformed in the past... if it comes up really heavy then I'd fancy meade's yoke any better than heavy and I think he's not the winner. Let it rain for me too!

rynners

I never mentioned 2 things in this thread... earlier when I was talking about archaeologist working great against a grey I failed to mention that Paul said he was giving the grey a stone and a half at the time.
Also another reason for a novice (not just grade 3) is the numbers, my lad won't be knocked about as much as he might be in a full compliment of beginners..

rynners

cson wrote: »

Jesus thats a very strong race he's entered in for Punchestown.

You are right, it is a strong race.. a lot stronger than I thought initially when I saw the field...
all the more fun to go there anyhow...

rynners

Update,
Just looked at the weather forcast for tuesday/wednesday and it has been slightly adjusted from what I read 2 days ago (which was a forcast for heavy downpours). If it doesn't ride soft/heavy at the very least I think I'll pull him. If it was just soft I'd be very happy let him have his chance in an ordinary novice. But in this it might not do anything for him.... I'll give Paul the call on that..

rynners

update..
The horse worked this morning out n loughrea point to point course and although he worked really well I get the feeling that Paul wants to pull him..It doesn't look either as though the ground will come up heavy..
think he'll be pulled ..
on the 23rd there's a beginners chase of 2m6 at thurles ... he might make it into that..then again he'll probably be balloted out.
so disappointed.

Misters2

Following ur updates with interest,in a similar boat myself.Nice 5yo gelding ready to run its unreal looking at the entries for every race. Ours (syndicate) ran in two points earlier in the year finished third first time without being bustled up too much got brought out next time in a big field,not too worried about that.Now hoping to get into 2mile 4fur maiden hurdle not holding my breath .Never know might end up in same race someday.

rynners

hi,
what's the name of your horse? .. i can follow it on horse tracker.
there's a few maiden hurdles like that coming up this month, look on irish-racing.com and the fixtures tab.. details of meetings will tell you what's coming up. off hand i know there's a 2m6 on the 29th and 31st. BUt you'd want to get entering to be balloted out so that you can get him into a race asap. (complicated but that's the way it works).
As an owner, you'll understand why I'm sorely tempted to run him in the grade 3. (if you've been following my post).
good luck with him..

Misters2

I would like to tell you the horses name but that would be unfair on the other members of the syndicate (one thinks JP wants our horse.....I wish).This is our second time round so know all about the ballots so frustrating. I'll keep reading and hope to update aswell,hope things go well for you.

rynners

cson wrote: »

At least you'll know where you stand with him afterwards.

Trouble is that given the others should be way ahead of him in ability and experience he could just get left behind and i wouldn't know what abilty he had or could grow into... best way forward is probably small steps

rynners

Update Update.
He's entered up for a novice chase in cork on sunday.. over 2m6 which is a more suitable distance than the 2m2 at punchestown. It looks like it might be a hot enough novice as prize money is decent, but not as hot as the grade 3. It's the more suitable alternative and i'd say we'll scratch him from punchestown in favour of cork. I don't know what sort of track cork has, if it's sharp then it's not good news, however the distance may compensate for that..
Assuming the weather continues nasty (not sure it will) and that the track is somewhat galloping then he may be worth a bet...at least a saver if you fancy something else in the race..
we think he can win a beginners first time out... a novice is a little more difficult.. will keep you posted.
if anyone has track info on cork please post.

jayo27

Cork is a good galloping flat track. Ground should be riding on the soft side. If I was you at this stage I would demand the horse to be ran either at Punchestown or Cork. The longer the horse does'nt run the bigger the doubts grow in my mind. I would'nt be expecting too much from him the first day if i was you, but if you could get him to finish respectably you would know where you're going. All the better if he does win cause you'll definetly know what you have. My one worry is that your trainer is out of form lately.

knighted_1

if your worried about your horse getting left behind then cork is the wrong place for an introduction to racing -its a big flat course not really suited to national hunt types with a big long run in with 4 fences -flat bred horses tend to do well in hurdles and chases there-punchestown clonmel fairyhouse are better tracks o introduce a horse as they are more forgiving of mistakes and you get time to recover on undulating tracks and the fences are more inviting for a novice - pros and cons with every track though


best piece of advice i can give you is that when you go racing ,no matter where your horse finishes ,if you have learned something about him,then it wasnt a waste of time -on the other hand if you learn nothing then it is a waste of time


good luck and enjoy

rynners

Update.
Well the horse has been taken out of the grade 3 at the last minute.... only 5 left in that race.Pity.... he'll go to cork if he gets in..

rynners

not enjoying been an owner.

Bluetonic

Best of luck on Cork on Sunday, up against some horses who were decent enough over hurdles.

jayo27

Pretty tough race. Best of Luck though, hope you run a big one. you deserve it at this stage.

rynners

Thanks for the good luck messages lads. I'm happy as larry to be into the race..but a little preturbed that Lynch has gone to ride another and I have a claimer up.. think it rings a few alarm bells.. though Flynn has ridden out my horse a few times.. but is it any advantage?? One thing I do want though is that my lad is trying throughout the race to finish in the best position that he can.. won't be happy if he gets an easy time of it.. there's 16k to the winner and I want my lad ridden like he can win the race. If he falls at the first so be it.. but would be unhappy with a stroll around..
if you all can keep an eye out for him and give me your views.
much appreciated.

rynners

sssshhhh, i'd love to have loughran up who I really rate as a jockey.. (some of you might argue this one)... he's probably my fav jockey.. and should be in the poll on another thread..

rynners

I see Irish-racing have him as the outsider. If he comes last in this i'll be giving him away as a present to a friend of mine.
(quick edit... depends on how badly he runs.. if he looks a complete donkey.. you get the idea).

rynners

Update: he worked very very well this morning.. much better than he did last monday (when he worked on loughrea p2p course).. paul said he probably just needed that work last monday..