Alfa 147 v Fiat Panda 100hp

spav

Bit of a strange comparison I know, but I've been looking around for a an affordable (€17k appx), sporty, relatively practical hatchback for a while now and I think I've settled on these two.

I'd either be looking for a brand new Panda or a second hand, very low mile 147 1.6. I really like the 147 but I'm slightly concerned that, since it's an old car that is going to be replaced next year, it'll suffer really badly with deprecation. There seems to be a lot of decent deals about however, saw a Lusso 2007 in a showroom over the weekend with 5k on the clock for €17k.

I really like the Panda, and think it's very good value. While I prefer the 147, I think the Panda might be the better buy long term.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Stevie Dakota

If you plan on running the car for a few years and want lower running costs then the Panda wins hands down. The 146 is thirsty and bit old school Alfa when it comes to electrical gremlins. The Alfa though has great driver appeal and a nice interior, its comes down to what rules, heart or head.

L1011

The Panda will be less than 17k and has as a 4 year warranty / 4 year AA - although a 2007 Alfa should still have a fair bit of manufacturer warranty left also.

spav

MYOB wrote: »

The Panda will be less than 17k and has as a 4 year warranty / 4 year AA - although a 2007 Alfa should still have a fair bit of manufacturer warranty left also.

Yeah, and the Panda comes under that Fiat 70 / 30 finance thing too - 30% deposit then interest free finance for the remainder. It'd be a very easy car to live with alright.

bazz26

If your priority is comfort, space and bigger car refinement then the 147 will win.

If you main priority is economy, warranty cover and low cost of ownership then it has to be the Panda.

cantdecide

147- a far more substantial car. You will get lots of anti- Alfa sentiment but as long as you aren't overly emotional about car repair, you won't lose too much sleep.

spav

bazz26 wrote: »

If your priority is comfort, space and bigger car refinement then the 147 will win.

If you main priority is economy, warranty cover and low cost of ownership then it has to be the Panda.

I'm probably somewhere in between. I won't be racking up big miles, so running costs aren't my biggest concern. Depreciation is probably my biggest worry on that front. I do want the cabin to be a nice place to be, and the 147 certainly wins on that front.

I suppose my dilemma is that I want something that I can keep for a few years. On that basis, I worry that I'd get bored of the Panda, or that the 147 would be worth bugger all in 3 or 4 years time.

Alfas are known as being unreliable, I personally wouldn't go near one...

If you look on carzone you will see lots of Alfas advertised with "new engine just fitted" like its a good thing but why did it need a new engine in the first place?? wouldn't really buy a fiat either as they are made by the same company so probably same rules apply, you can get some fab cars for 17k....

bazz26

spav wrote: »

I'm probably somewhere in between. I won't be racking up big miles, so running costs aren't my biggest concern. Depreciation is probably my biggest worry on that front. I do want the cabin to be a nice place to be, and the 147 certainly wins on that front.

I suppose my dilemma is that I want something that I can keep for a few years. On that basis, I worry that I'd get bored of the Panda, or that the 147 would be worth bugger all in 3 or 4 years time.

If you don't need the extra two doors or are not ferrying people around maybe a Fiat 500 might be a good compremise between the two?

Eg:
http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Fiat/500/Lounge-1.4/942661/

spav

bazz26 wrote: »

If you don't need the extra two doors or are not ferrying people around maybe a Fiat 500 might be a good compremise between the two?

Eg:
http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Fiat/500/Lounge-1.4/942661/

Don't like them - you seem to be able to get great deals on them, but they're just not to my taste. Shame really, as I was really looking forward to it coming out.

spav

Grainne C wrote: »

Alfas are known as being unreliable, I personally wouldn't go near one...

If you look on carzone you will see lots of Alfas advertised with "new engine just fitted" like its a good thing but why did it need a new engine in the first place?? wouldn't really buy a fiat either as they are made by the same company so probably same rules apply, you can get some fab cars for 17k....

Is that still the case? I was speaking to a Fiat salesman the other week, and he was saying Fiat these days supply a lot of electrics and engines to the likes of General Motors and Toyota.

L1011

spav wrote: »

Is that still the case? I was speaking to a Fiat salesman the other week, and he was saying Fiat these days supply a lot of electrics and engines to the likes of General Motors and Toyota.

GM use Fiat diesel engines directly
Loads of other companies use licenced engines
A number of firms get or are getting Fiat to build cars for them including Ford (new Ka), BMW (new Isetta). The Corsa and Suzuki Swift are Grande Punto based.

nollaigc

Have owned a 147 since 04, have loved it.
I know all the anti alfa bias that exists and maybe I have just been lucky, but I have found it to be a great car.
I dare say you could negotiate a very serious discount on the alfa but any way you go at least go and test drive a few 147's.
You won't regret the driving experience.
Read some of the alfa forums to see how big a family that the alfa actually has ,you will be surprised.
I agree that you will probably get better economies with the panda but I know which one I prefer.

cantdecide

There was talk about a pile of Toyota engines being replaced under warranty on the sly. Reliability is only part of the picture- it's not the whole picture.

Even if the Alfa wasn't completely reliable, it's still a nice bloody car.

spav

spav wrote: »

Is that still the case? I was speaking to a Fiat salesman the other week, and he was saying Fiat these days supply a lot of electrics and engines to the likes of General Motors and Toyota.

I am willing to stand corrected on this......

cantdecide wrote: »

Even if the Alfa wasn't completely reliable, it's still a nice bloody car.

Completely agree, but I wouldn't choose looks over reliability if paying 17k, maybe reliability is not as much of an issue as it used to be but I remember looking for cars myself and my own car salesmen/mechanic friends warning me off, I was told at the time the engine will die after 40k miles - but again, could be wrong.....

Mailman

the fiat 1.4 litre engine is very coarse. a 1.2 litre would be a more pleasant car to own.
if you want a panda 100hp then consider going to the UK and picking up a 6 month old car with delivery milage. It will come in well under budget after VRT is paid but will only have a 2 year warranty as opposed to the 4 offered here.
New ones are selling for 7295 sterling from online discounters in the UK.
147 is near end of life and panda will be replaced in 2010 which is just 15 months away.

cantdecide

Mechanics can have agendas too. Would you ask a politician who you should vote for:D

What constitutes a suitable car changes from person to person but for someone who isn't overly concerned about what car they have to instantly be assumed to require a car that demonstrates function over form is a bit obvious. I know mechanics would recommend Toyotas every time but I am about 1000 times more likely to buy an Alfa than a Toyota.

spav

cantdecide wrote: »

Mechanics can have agendas too. Would you ask a politician who you should vote for:D

What constitutes a suitable car changes from person to person but for someone who isn't overly concerned about what car they have to instantly be assumed to require a car that demonstrates function over form is a bit obvious. I know mechanics would recommend Toyotas every time but I am about 1000 times more likely to buy an Alfa than a Toyota.

As long as the newer Alfas aren't going to break down every few hundred miles then I'd be happy. I've known friends who'd had VWs to have loads of problems, so you can never be certain.

I could get a decent Focus for the money, but though it'd be a more practical purchase, I couldn't spend that much money on something that just doesn't excite me. The minute I sat in the seat of a 147, I had a big smile on my face.

cantdecide

spav wrote: »

I couldn't spend that much money on something that just doesn't excite me

welcome to our world- it's nice, we have muffins:p

spav

cantdecide wrote: »

welcome to our world- it's nice, we have muffins:p

comfort eating while your car is in the garage again?

cantdecide

spav wrote: »

comfort eating

Nope, loads of cash. The money I was supposed to spend on that Avensis:D

galwaytt

Grainne C wrote: »

Alfas are known as being unreliable, I personally wouldn't go near one...

If you look on carzone you will see lots of Alfas advertised with "new engine just fitted" like its a good thing but why did it need a new engine in the first place?? wouldn't really buy a fiat either as they are made by the same company so probably same rules apply, you can get some fab cars for 17k....

`

Seeing as GM (Opel and Vauxhall), both commercial and passenger btw...Saab (also a GM) co, all use Fiat/Alfa engines, then your statement is not only misguiding, it's also incorrect.

As for 'engine replacement's, just go to any garage and ask to see his collection of Yaris or Avensis engine blocks, to give a little balance to the claim.

OP - you're right, the Alfa will be worthless in 3 of 4 year (or near it) - but does that matter to you? If the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) over the 4 years, including depreciating it to (even near..) zero, is acceptable: buy it. As you've said, you like it, so you're obviously across the 'brand barrier' - which is a good thing, imho.

The Panda will be a variation on the same theme: TCO over the 4 years, but this time with a full warranty and (very important, 'cos a lot of people don't factor in the cost of interest....) low or zero cost finance - so again, if the value at end year 4, taken from what it's cost you, is still acceptable - then that too is a good buy. It would have better resale than the Alfa, due to it's more affordable engine size etc, even to younger drivers. You won't find any other brand doing that, afaik. Then,

The badge on the front is, tbh, ignored in the calculations above, irrespective of brand. Everything is worth something, to somebody. If you sell cheap, and buy cheap, then so long as the interim costs are on average, then you're actually ahead - this is because (if you're borrowing the money), you've paid less in interest.

Fwiw, despite my (madness) for changing cars at the drop of a hat, my best experience was on a new Cinqucento Sporting, in 1996. Yellow, of course. When I sold it at 3+ yrs old, I got more than the finance owed, and the car never gave any trouble. Historically, Fiat make good small-engined cars that, on average, even if you do fix them, are at least cheap and easy to fix......
A previous experience with an Alfa Giulietta was similar. Cheap to come, cheap to go, and no more than average cost in between.

What's not to like ? Besides, they're nice cockpits to be in.

Hasn't stopped me from buying other 'prestige brands' since, and one day, like Arnold, 'I'll be back.........'

spav

Some good advice here everyone, much appreciated.

Lex Luthor

to me there is one winner and has to be the 147

the 2 cars are not even in the same class

if resale is what you are worried about, then don't buy the Alfa and get a Golf or Auris

kuro_man

If you want an Italian car, get a Fiat Coupe 20v turbo. Much more of a car than the 147 or the panda.

It will only cost 3 - 4k, will be reliable, classic spacious design with great performance. Depreciation will be almost nothing and, provided the petrol doesn't run out, may even appreciate. Insurance/servicing will be more expensive but you'll have 13k in your pocket! Oil changes are more frequent.

If possible get a 1999/2000 20v turbo with NO modifications. Avoid 16v or non-turbos, they won't hold their value long term.

I have driven the yellow one for sale in carzone (in Kildare) and it seemed tidy enough. I was going to get it inspected but found a V8 I couldn't walk away from, so bought that instead. There are plenty for sale in the UK, and the price has dropped substantially recently so you could get a real bargain.

Stevie Dakota

If you made an offer of €20K on a new Collezione 147 you may get lucky, I know for a fact that the dealers will still make a small profit at that level.

spav

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

If you made an offer of €20K on a new Collezione 147 you may get lucky, I know for a fact that the dealers will still make a small profit at that level.

Really? That's interesting. I was sat in one on Saturday, the extras make a huge difference, the interior is especially handsome. There seems to be a load of them around too, that's be some car for the money.

Zonda999

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

If you made an offer of €20K on a new Collezione 147 you may get lucky, I know for a fact that the dealers will still make a small profit at that level.

A beautiful car alright, i have to say.The alloys are gorgeous as well.As a car that makes you "feel" good, i think the 147 is in a class of its own at that price.A basic auris(In silver with hub-caps:rolleyes:) or a handsome italian car with a beige leather interior....I do like the panda 100hp, as well though.Very much suited to the city, i think, though

Cj Mac

Grainne C wrote: »

Alfas are known as being unreliable, I personally wouldn't go near one...

If you look on carzone you will see lots of Alfas advertised with "new engine just fitted" like its a good thing but why did it need a new engine in the first place?? wouldn't really buy a fiat either as they are made by the same company so probably same rules apply, you can get some fab cars for 17k....

Grainne, do us and the other users of Boards a favour and don't comment on something that you obviously know nothing about !

Have you ever owned an alfa ?

The "engine replacement" you refer to is actually a timing belt replacement and all cars have to get either their timing belts or chains changed at some stage.

I have a 147, I have it seven years, 90K miles and it hasn'y skipped a beat.

OP, Ignore the ignorance and buy whichever car your heart wants !

macroman

Alpha 147's are fantastic cars, driven one recently and got out with a grin. Holds itself well on the road, and pulls really well in all gears. The only downer is the depreciation, Alpha's have massive depreciation!

As for the 100HP, if you do want something more chuckable then go for this. It's a budget car with some luxury, and decent pull. I prefer the look of the 100HP over the 147 personally. There's like a 100HP cult following over here.

bazz26

macroman wrote: »

Alpha 147's are fantastic cars, driven one recently and got out with a grin. Holds itself well on the road, and pulls really well in all gears. The only downer is the depreciation, Alpha's have massive depreciation!

As for the 100HP, if you do want something more chuckable then go for this. It's a budget car with some luxury, and decent pull. I prefer the look of the 100HP over the 147 personally. There's like a 100HP cult following over here.

People buy Alfas for their appreciation not depreciation.

spav

Apparently Motorpoint are offering a finance deal on the pre-reg 08 147 Collezione.

RRP of €22k
No deposit
€399 a month over 5 years (8.2% APR)
Final payment of €3k.

That seems like a great deal to me.

Stevie Dakota

Thats seems line a lousy deal to me, nearly €27,000 for a car that will be almost worthless after the finance is over. No-one will want that dirty 1.6 (194g Co2) in 5 years time, by which time the Co2 bands will a have changed dramatically. The 147 only makes sense if bought well below list.

spav

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

Thats seems line a lousy deal to me, nearly €27,000 for a car that will be almost worthless after the finance is over. No-one will want that dirty 1.6 (194g Co2) in 5 years time, by which time the Co2 bands will a have changed dramatically. The 147 only makes sense if bought well below list.

Wow - so does that make it band F? Didn't know that - ouch. Certainly puts a different slant on things.

Stevie Dakota

The 1.6 147's are all pre-reg on the old system, they had to pre-reg as no-one would buy them post July as they are so dirty. My point was, if the tax systems changes down the line cars like this will suffer badly.

spav

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

The 1.6 147's are all pre-reg on the old system, they had to pre-reg as no-one would buy them post July as they are so dirty. My point was, if the tax systems changes down the line cars like this will suffer badly.

It's a fair point. I certainly wouldn't buy a 5 year old 1.6 if it happened to be in the second highest tax bracket, and if I did decide to buy it then I'd want to get it for next to nothing.

€1k month for road tax is a bit hard to swallow too.

L1011

It won't be 1000 (now, at least) - it'll be registered on the old system so it'll be about half that

spav

MYOB wrote: »

It won't be 1000 (now, at least) - it'll be registered on the old system so it'll be about half that

Yeah, it mentioned that it's €391 for the first year, which is something at least.

spav

Had a test drive of the Panda 100hp and it's a brilliant little car. Brilliant fun to drive, and it's suprisingly well put together. I'm going to go for that over the Alfa, in the end the VRT issue was the deciding factor.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

S.I.R

spav wrote: »

Bit of a strange comparison I know, but I've been looking around for a an affordable (€17k appx), sporty, relatively practical hatchback for a while now and I think I've settled on these two.

I'd either be looking for a brand new Panda or a second hand, very low mile 147 1.6. I really like the 147 but I'm slightly concerned that, since it's an old car that is going to be replaced next year, it'll suffer really badly with deprecation. There seems to be a lot of decent deals about however, saw a Lusso 2007 in a showroom over the weekend with 5k on the clock for €17k.

I really like the Panda, and think it's very good value. While I prefer the 147, I think the Panda might be the better buy long term.

Any comments would be appreciated.

HAHA...ha... you clearly need your head checked... alfas are ok but jesus... any more then a year you might aswell remove your right testical...


the panda suffers from poor build quality too so yes... screwed with either choice.

bazz26

Best of luck OP with your choice, I'm sure you won't regret it.

peasant

S.I.R wrote: »

HAHA...ha... you clearly need your head checked... alfas are ok but jesus... any more then a year you might aswell remove your right testical...
.

It's "testicle" :rolleyes:

If you want to troll, at least do it right ...

L1011

S.I.R wrote: »

the panda suffers from poor build quality too so yes... screwed with either choice.

Prove this.


You won't be able to, by the way. Stop lying about Fiat - you've already admitted on this forum that you just hate them, so you don't need to lie to be able to vindicate your position.

Panda is top ten in the JD Power survey, by the way.

ytareh

"Fwiw, despite my (madness) for changing cars at the drop of a hat, my best experience was on a new Cinquecento Sporting, in 1996. Yellow, of course. When I sold it at 3+ yrs old, I got more than the finance owed, and the car never gave any trouble. Historically, Fiat make good small-engined cars that, on average, even if you do fix them, are at least cheap and easy to fix......"

Big Cinquecento fan here also (Must have bought/sold/ran a dozen or more 'Centos) !But have to disagree in some respects ...I know quite a few bitter Cinquecento owners who got as good as nothing for their 2-4 year old cars ...depreciation was massive !Some of the Fiat Puntos which sold by the 1000s here gave nightmarish trouble with serious things like ECUs/cats etc
Delighted youre going for the Panda ,it was Fiats first real Cento Sporting 'replacement' although I suppose it was more a half way house between a Cinq Sporting and a Punto GT.Obviously the new 500 particularly the forthcoming Abarths will be brill.
There was a guy called CJ(?) being v ignorant to someone called Grainne ...She was right, Alfas of the 156 era were VERY unreliable with major work common at 40k including major engine components or the whole engine !Personally I never liked the 147 and think you would be maaaaaaaaaad to consider spending 17k on it esp as its from the same bloodline as the 156.(and gonna cost a grand a year for tax!!!???)You could probably pick up a used 147 for 2/3k if not dozens of them (any not broken left?)(yeah 2,600 on Carzone...imagine he will have to take one thousand and something...)Its not like these will be a classic investment they are the son of the 145/146 for Gods sake ,one of the ugliest cars ever!)
This guy was selling this but stuck on his asking price as of a month ago...

http://www.octane.ie/ads/car.php?id=2744

Some depreciation !Nice car!

ytareh

Smartish looking car BUT:

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Alfa-Romeo/147/DUCATI-LIMITED/1180551/

I defy anybody to find a faster way to loose 25 grand !!!(I assumed it was a GTA at that money -OUCH!!!)

Cj Mac

ytareh wrote: »

"
There was a guy called CJ(?) being v ignorant to someone called Grainne ...She was right, Alfas of the 156 era were VERY unreliable with major work common at 40k including major engine components or the whole engine

It seems you are as ignorant as Grainne, Why comment on something you know little about it, a timing belt change is not an engine replacement ?

Also, the op will not be paying €1000 road tax pa if he buys a car registered before 1st July !

P.s Are you grainne in disguise ? you seem to be v concerned about her feelings?
I just don't like people pedalling sterotypical faleshoods with any personal experience.