VRT rip-off on classic cars;

junkyard

I was over at the Beulieau autojumble at the weekend buying a few cars and came across a very tidy 1985 Rolls Royce Silver Spirit with and asking price of 5950 sterling, after a bit of haggleing I got him down to 4000 sterling which I thought was good value so made arrangements to check the VRT first thing on Monday and bring the car home. Went on line to check it out but no listing so I rang the VRT office to enquire what the VRT would be on the car and to my horror I was told it would be 36% of the current Irish market price of 14750 euros which is 5310 euros which is almost as much as the car costs in the first place!! I couldn't believe it, what a rip-off, 36 bloody %!! Has anyone else come across this?:mad:

carchaeologist

That is taking things a bit far,but this is ireland after all...rip off everything....:rolleyes:

drunkmonkey

The revenue are taking the absolute piss when it comes to second hand car values, I called them the other day to challenge them on it, but they refuse to talk to the public, you pay the full VRT and then you can lodge an appeal if you think the OMSV is incorrect...I tried that route before and it didn't work...

Sids Not

I've said this before and no one agreed with me..how do the VRT office value cars.? they look up the car ads and see "Ford Escort 1.3 excellent condition 6000 euro.....:rolleyes:
Its the greedy Irish attitude again, until people stop charging what they think some fool will pay this will continue.....

peasant

With the new CO2 based rating, 36% would be the standard rate for any car without official EU approved CO values.

drunkmonkey

Sids Not wrote: »

I've said this before and no one agreed with me..how do the VRT office value cars.? they look up the car ads and see "Ford Escort 1.3 excellent condition 6000 euro.....:rolleyes:
Its the greedy Irish attitude again, until people stop charging what they think some fool will pay this will continue.....

there gone past that, In my situation I can't even find a car the same price or above...

shagman

Sids Not wrote: »

I've said this before and no one agreed with me..how do the VRT office value cars.? they look up the car ads and see "Ford Escort 1.3 excellent condition 6000 euro.....:rolleyes:
Its the greedy Irish attitude again, until people stop charging what they think some fool will pay this will continue.....

No they don't they get their prices from SIMI, the industry looking to sell new cars give them the prices for second hand cars so they can estimate the VRT payable on imported cars.

As crooked as a fianna fail TD receiving a brown envelope from a car dealer.

drunkmonkey

shagman wrote: »

No they don't they get their prices from SIMI, the industry looking to sell new cars give them the prices for second hand cars so they can estimate the VRT payable on imported cars.

As crooked as a fianna fail TD receiving a brown envelope from a car dealer.

There not going on book value, I've talked to a few dealers and they don't know where there getting there prices from...

This is a public service and thus should be open and transparent......

It's time FF and there cronies fooked off and stopped riding us up the ass at every available opportunity...

macplaxton

peasant wrote: »

With the new CO2 based rating, 36% would be the standard rate for any car without official EU approved CO values.

I agree with peasant.

It's not a rip-off solely against so-called classic cars (or my preferred choice of historic vehicle being over 25 years old), it's a tax that strongly discourages the import of high CO2 figured cars. There are various accepted means of calculating a correlated CO2 figure, but even this would only get the VRT down a band or two (which would roughly be a drop of a 4% each band it drops).

In effect they are asking 36% instead of the 30% they would have charged pre-1st July 2008.

I was looking at a 1985 Volvo 340 Variomatic, but the VRT and Motor Tax makes it uneconomic. I do find it odd that a cut-off date wasn't used so that emissions could be applied to say post-2001 vehicles where data would be readily available and pre-2001 vehicles could be treated under the old VRT rates rather than the old system rates only applying to Motor Tax

The answer is simple. The rules are already in place and you work round them. Get a 1978 Rolls Royce.

maidhc

macplaxton wrote: »

The answer is simple. The rules are already in place and you work round them. Get a 1978 Rolls Royce.

Fair point. It is a wonderfully generous system if you work it right.

cantdecide

junkyard wrote: »

36 bloody %!!

Correction- approx 52% over the 'basic' cost of the car. VRT is 36% of 136%, ie the OMSP is already inflated by 36% VRT before you pay, so it's tax on tax and it's definitely NOT the headline 36%- just some mathematical gymnastics.

alpina

maidhc wrote: »

Fair point. It is a wonderfully generous system if you work it right.

Agree with this to a point, however a sliding scale tax system from 25 to 30 would be a more logical approach €1, 000+ for tax all the way to yr. 29 & bang €42! on yr. 30. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

A little bit of thought, logic & fairness would not go astray...

Dades

junkyard wrote: »

I was told it would be 36% of the current Irish market price of 14750 euros which is 5310 euros which is almost as much as the car costs in the first place!!

Is the market price fair, Junkyard, or is that as skewed as the 36%?

drunkmonkey wrote:

It's time FF and there cronies fooked off and stopped riding us up the ass at every available opportunity...

Do you really think a change in government would see more concessions for classic owners?!
Hush and don't rock that boat I say!

maidhc

alpina wrote: »

Agree with this to a point, however a sliding scale tax system from 25 to 30 would be a more logical approach €1, 000+ for tax all the way to yr. 29 & bang €42! on yr. 30. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

A little bit of thought, logic & fairness would not go astray...

I agree.

At least is is better than the UK where they decided nothing made after 1972 or something can be a classic, ever.

The OMSP seems a bit of a running joke at the moment though.

drunkmonkey

Is there not a Green Issue we could raise with cars over a certain age..

Surley it makes more sense if were encouraged to use all the cars that are already built than going out and buying new ones...

I think anything over 18 years old should be a classic and be excempt from import duty and fall into a low car tax band, Maybe €250 a year tax..

all this would greatley reduce our carbon tyre threads;)

macplaxton

Never mind the VRT what is the annual Motor Tax added up until it's 30th birthday?

There's no rip-off. You get a very good deal. It's just everyone's definition of classic is different. The government's view is that it has to be over 30 years old - Which I think is better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick :P

When the UK introduced the rolling 25 exemption a few cars qualified. By the time fixed cut-off date was introduced, the numbers had ballooned. Any government doesn't like to give money away and in the present climate would like to tax a lot more to keep the books balanced.

Esel

maidhc wrote: »

At least is is better than the UK where they decided nothing made after 1972 or something can be a classic, ever.

Rumoured to under serious consideration here. 1978 anybody?

Anan1

junkyard wrote: »

...so I rang the VRT office to enquire what the VRT would be on the car and to my horror I was told it would be 36% of the current Irish market price of 14750 euros which is 5310 euros which is almost as much as the car costs in the first place!! I couldn't believe it, what a rip-off, 36 bloody %!! Has anyone else come across this?:mad:

Two points come to mind:

a.) You're in the motor trade, I find it hard to believe this is the first you've heard of the VRT system.

b.) It's a Rolls Royce with a 6.7 litre petrol engine, not a diesel supermini. What VRT bracket did you expect it to be in?

manta mad

well this is my expirence with the vrt office

now i brought in an opel manta 2.0 litre gte coupe about two years ago !
it was on the system ( in the little brackets for various models )

& it cost me 315 euro to clear !!

now a few weeks ago i went to clear another opel manta 2.0 litre gte coupe

and could not find it on the system anywhere ,so i rang up the vrt office & was told it was a speical model and i would have to wait till they got a price from wexford vrt in rosslare port ????



so the next day i got a phone call from vrt & they said it was gonna cost me
560 euro :eek:

STATISTICAL CODE: 40787803
MAKE: OPEL
MODEL: MANTA 2.0
VERSION:
CO2 EMISSIONS: 188
MILEAGE: 87000 MILES
DATE OF FIRST REGISTRATION: AUGUST 1987

OPEN MARKET SELLING PRICE: Ä2000
RATE OF TAX: 28%
VEHICLE REGISTRATION TAX:
(payable on enquiry date) Ä560


apparantly they check regularly the type of car that is coming in, & if they start coming in a lot they take it down from the system .
plus they value it at what they think OMSP has jumped from Ä625 to Ä2000
so that means they up the price on that type of car & charge you more :mad:

rip off is a tad understated here i think !!!!!

Esel

^ Pretty sure €560 is now the minimum amount for cars rated at 28%, so no rip-off in this case.

maidhc

manta mad wrote: »

rip off is a tad understated here i think !!!!!

To be fair, an OMSP of €2,000 is reasonable on a manta. Would you sell me yours for €625?

manta mad

yep i know what yer saying , but its gone up in price is whats bugging me !

and no i would not sell one for that price

but i suppose we cant have it both ways .:)

macplaxton

Well I don't think it's a "classic" car rip off, as they are flat rate VRT of 50 yoyos.

The topic would be better described an everyday car rip off.

In the past it was €315 minimum. Now whilst there is not a fixed minimum, the minimum due is related to a minimum value of €2000 on the OSMP. So even if the Revenue decides it's worth €625, the VRT is worked out on €2000.

The Revenue OMSP hasn't really jumped up, just a minimum value applied. So yes money grabbing they are 28% of €2000 being of course €560. Before it was 30% of €625 (€187.50) subject to €315 minimum. Therefore in respect of the old top band 30%, the minimum value was effectively €1050.

Now if you were bringing in a car worth €3000 OMSP, then you'd be winning on band 171 - 190g as you'd be paying €840 instead of €900.

It certainly going to discourage the dirt cheap and old 226g and over cars coming in as well as ones with no emissions data available or acceptable as they are subject to the 36% on €2000 minimum = €720. At least they motor tax is calculated on the first worldwide registration date, if it wasn't, these would be paying €2000 annual Motor Tax.

Yes VRT is a rip-off. I'm sort of sick of hearing it. It's horses for courses really, you could get humped on fuel duty and emissions instead. It doesn't matter which country you live in now, the shift is towards polluter pays and that's shown more and more in the tax system. The VRT changes were widely publicised too. It could have been a lot worse and the motor tax system changed to emissions and
retrospectively applied. Now that would be a very bad thing.

MercMad

About 2 years ago the Revenue introduced a special "cars of special interest" class and basically as mentioned above, cars that are regularly brought in, or even checked regularly on the calculator get put in this class.

The Mercedes W124 Coupe and Cabriolet are there as are the cabriolet E30's to name but a few. It IS a rip-off but dont think there is much one can do about it !

L1011

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Is there not a Green Issue we could raise with cars over a certain age..

Surley it makes more sense if were encouraged to use all the cars that are already built than going out and buying new ones...

Tried this in a LONG email debate back and forth with Gormley via his private secretary, ref: my previous car having 166% increase in tax over a brand new model of it.

Failed.

Bought an 08 car with far higher emissions, causing untold damage to the environment of Poland where its built, wherever they mine the iron ore for the steel, wherever they drill the oil for the plastics, etc, etc.

galwaytt

manta mad wrote: »

well this is my expirence with the vrt office .........now a few weeks ago i went to clear another opel manta 2.0 litre gte coupe..........and could not find it on the system anywhere ,so i rang up the vrt office & was told it was a speical model and i would have to wait till they got a price from wexford vrt in rosslare port ????

you need to play them at their own game - when you go in to get a quote, give them the statistical code of an existing VLC so they can just type it in.

I did this before, because, and I know this for a fact, a car I brought in is on the VRT system - twice. Under two different codes. One is cheaper than the other. All under the infamous computer system truism - Sh1t In, Sh1t Out. You just need to provide the correct.........'manure' All because some data entry person doesn't know a piston from a pissy-bed, and so juxtaposing two words in a car's description.....gave it a whole new identity. TaDa !!

See, sometimes it's not all bad............!!

kahaya

manta mad wrote: »

well this is my expirence with the vrt office

now i brought in an opel manta 2.0 litre gte coupe about two years ago !
it was on the system ( in the little brackets for various models )

& it cost me 315 euro to clear !!

now a few weeks ago i went to clear another opel manta 2.0 litre gte coupe

and could not find it on the system anywhere ,so i rang up the vrt office & was told it was a speical model and i would have to wait till they got a price from wexford vrt in rosslare port ????



so the next day i got a phone call from vrt & they said it was gonna cost me
560 euro :eek:

STATISTICAL CODE: 40787803
MAKE: OPEL
MODEL: MANTA 2.0
VERSION:
CO2 EMISSIONS: 188
MILEAGE: 87000 MILES
DATE OF FIRST REGISTRATION: AUGUST 1987

OPEN MARKET SELLING PRICE: Ä2000
RATE OF TAX: 28%
VEHICLE REGISTRATION TAX:
(payable on enquiry date) Ä560


apparantly they check regularly the type of car that is coming in, & if they start coming in a lot they take it down from the system .
plus they value it at what they think OMSP has jumped from Ä625 to Ä2000
so that means they up the price on that type of car & charge you more :mad:

rip off is a tad understated here i think !!!!!

It cost me €525 to clear my 1988 Manta in April. How the feck they didn't have it on the system is beyond me.

jimpc

You can appeal the VRT. Check the revenue site.

macplaxton

kahaya wrote: »

How the feck they didn't have it on the system is beyond me.

Maybe it was down to the exact model designation. I went down the other day to try and register the Citroen. The GS and GSA family all share the same statistical code, but the exact model designation wasn't on the list. As they need to add it to the family (so I have an accurate entry on the registration certificate), I have to wait until it gets done by the CVO before I can be issued with a number.

atlantean

kahaya wrote: »

It cost me €525 to clear my 1988 Manta in April. How the feck they didn't have it on the system is beyond me.

I take it it is a coupe and you wnt to a VRT office outsied Dublin? Manta B CC's are listed!