Are "we" at War with Muslims?

csk

Okay just came across this column by Kevin Myers. Given the headline and the general gist of his argument it seems we are, at least according to him. Now obviously questions can be raised of "our" involvement in George Bush's "War on Terror" due to the use of Shannon but leaving that aside (personally I'm against the use of Shannon) it seems we are not officially at war as of yet. But the question Myers raises is are or will "we" be at some time in the future?

As an aside: looking at Myers argument more closely, he states the following, which I found interesting as it raised another question:

Silly, fey, liberal idiots will say that we should abandon Afghanistan. Well, if we do, then watch the cards fall: from the Himalayas, to the straits of Hercules dividing Africa from Europe, to the emerging Islamic townships of Benelux and the UK: and within the malign continuum of extremism, they do not ask whether a soldier of Islam is from 'Afghanistan' or 'Bengalistan', 'Antwerpistan', 'Bradfordistan' or even one day, for sure, 'Dublinistan'. They ask only if he is true to the cause.

Note especially the reference to "Dublinistan". Is the logic behind that comment not just the same kind of scaremongering that can be seen on Stormfront and even here at Boards.ie from time to time i.e them furriners are going to take our jobs and our women and eventually our country? In my experience this is usually treated with utter derision and rightfully so.

But anyway the main question Myers raises is: whether or not we are at war with Islam?question

mike65

Not Islam, but Islamism is the actual distinction i think.

It largly boils down to if you think forces are afoot to create a global Islamic movement which is a permenent war with the west or not.

Mike.

Moriarty

Column: independant and myers doing what they do: rabble rousing. An idiot tax at €1.80 a pop.

I'll be sure to check for reds under my bed when I get home.


rabble rabble rabble rabble

lostexpectation

mike65 wrote: »

Not Islam, but Islamism is the actual distinction i think.

It largly boils down to if you think forces are afoot to create a global Islamic movement which is a permenent war with the west or not.

Mike.

or that west/American ('judea-christian') capitalist empire is permanent war with the world... which i think it it. and 'we' are are a part of that.

csk

Moriarty wrote: »

Column: independant and myers doing what they do: rabble rousing. An idiot tax at €1.80 a pop.

I'll be sure to check for reds under my bed when I get home.


rabble rabble rabble rabble

Yes but 'rabble rousing' for what purpose? Seeing as Myers himself states in the column that people don't seem to care about the issue, it can't simply be about selling papers. So what purpose does such a column, suggesting "we" are at war with Muslims when in fact for all intents and purposes "we" (Ireland) are not, serve?

csk

mike65 wrote: »

Not Islam, but Islamism is the actual distinction i think.

It largly boils down to if you think forces are afoot to create a global Islamic movement which is a permenent war with the west or not.

Mike.

Well are the forces afoot then?

mike65

I reckon about .5% of the Islamic world thinks its at war for the future of civilisation, the other 99.5% would not be that arsed frankly. Of course it only takes .5% to create alot of crap for everyone else - see Irish republicanism, Catalans etc etc.

Mike.

Phototoxin

Something about the history of Islam being spread by the sword or something comes to mind.

seamus

csk wrote: »

As an aside: looking at Myers argument more closely, he states the following, which I found interesting as it raised another question:

Silly, fey, liberal idiots will say that we should abandon Afghanistan. Well, if we do, then watch the cards fall: from the Himalayas, to the straits of Hercules dividing Africa from Europe, to the emerging Islamic townships of Benelux and the UK: and within the malign continuum of extremism, they do not ask whether a soldier of Islam is from 'Afghanistan' or 'Bengalistan', 'Antwerpistan', 'Bradfordistan' or even one day, for sure, 'Dublinistan'. They ask only if he is true to the cause.

Looks like a Myers rehash of the Domino Theory that the U.S. used as justification for fighting the commies.

But anyway the main question Myers raises is: whether or not we are at war with Islam?question

No.

What I firmly believe counters all forms of religious extremism is education. There's a whole pile of scaremongering about the influx of islamic immigrants into western countries and how their birth rates mean that they'll "take over", and how they're corrupting western culture, but what is always missed is the impact of western culture on the islamic/eastern cultures.

As has happened in Ireland over the past fifty years, as generations become more educated, more affluent and experience a more secular and tolerant way of life, they shed any religious zeal that they once had in favour of a less restricted life. People on the whole want to be free. When they understand that they can be free and taste that freedom, they very rarely decide that in fact they want to stay restrained by doctrine or superstition.

Religion has always thrived in impoverished cultures. The more improverished and less educated the culture, the stronger the religious zeal. Saudi is a perfect example of where affluence and freedom meets Islam. Yes, it's still a strongly religious state, but when compared to the likes of the Taliban's regime, the Saudi culture appears almost hedonistic.

The key to tackling the religious extremism problem is one of education. Remove ignorance and you remove religion's power. The idea that Islam is an infection which can "take over" another culture is ridiculous. Any old cult can take over a population if ignorance reigns.

getz

in ireland the authorities know of 19 islamic terror cells that have been set up---it is now only a matter of time before one of them acts

Morlar

getz wrote: »

in ireland the authorities know of 19 islamic terror cells that have been set up---it is now only a matter of time before one of them acts

Not that I dont believe you but can I ask what that is based on ? I wouldnt be too surprised if it were true given the numbers of mulsims (including english disaffected ones) in Ireland but I am just curious as to the source of that.

getz

this came from both irish and british goverments when the question was asked about the new passport changes between the irish/republic and the uk --later they said its about controling illegals between both countrys - that way one section of the community is not going to be upset

ChocolateSauce

Well it depends on both the definition of "we" and the individual you're asking. Militant atheists would certainly say that they are at war with Islam, though they might deny that "we" are.

djpbarry

csk wrote: »

Is the logic behind that comment not just the same kind of scaremongering that can be seen on Stormfront and even here at Boards.ie from time to time i.e them furriners are going to take our jobs and our women and eventually our country?

Pretty much.

csk wrote: »

But anyway the main question Myers raises is: whether or not we are at war with Islam?

No, “we” are not, but I suspect Myers is.

csk wrote: »

Seeing as Myers himself states in the column that people don't seem to care about the issue, it can't simply be about selling papers.

Why not?

Pretty much everything Myers writes is sensationalism, loosely based on fact. Take for example (from the article you linked):

“For there are thousands of other Britons, of immigrant stock, who support jihadism across the world…”

Now, I don’t doubt for a second that there are extremists in Britain, but this statement could mean just about anything. How many is thousands? Two thousand? Ten thousand? Five-hundred thousand? And what’s he basing it on? Nothing, probably; just thought it looked good, no doubt. Now you might say it’s just an opinion column, but an opinion isn’t worth much if it isn’t grounded in fact.

Petty really; Myers could probably be a decent journalist if he put his mind to it.

Phototoxin wrote: »

Something about the history of Islam being spread by the sword or something comes to mind.

Pretty sure there’s a whole load of violent crap in the Bible too.

getz wrote: »

in ireland the authorities know of 19 islamic terror cells that have been set up---it is now only a matter of time before one of them acts

Got a source for that?

getz

sure have it first came to my notice when reading a irish news paper in the uk --the article was about the reasons for introducing a passport system between uk and the republic it was said 19 islamic cells are known to be in ireland----i looked this up and this is what i found on the net----home office say 14 sunni terror cells linked to yemen are operating in northern ireland--the exact repubic numbers is harder to find but this may open your eyes-mary fitzgerald says since the late 1990s a number of irelands main mosques are under regular garda surveillance--after the uk terror bombings --bertie Ahern discloses that irish intelligence is watching islamic terrorists in the republic ---- do you want me to give you names as well ?

djpbarry

getz wrote: »

sure have it first came to my notice when reading a irish news paper in the uk --the article was about the reasons for introducing a passport system between uk and the republic it was said 19 islamic cells are known to be in ireland----i looked this up and this is what i found on the net----home office say 14 sunni terror cells linked to yemen are operating in northern ireland--the exact repubic numbers is harder to find but this may open your eyes-mary fitzgerald says since the late 1990s a number of irelands main mosques are under regular garda surveillance--after the uk terror bombings --bertie Ahern discloses that irish intelligence is watching islamic terrorists in the republic ---- do you want me to give you names as well ?

Perhaps I should rephrase; can you provide a link to a source?

philologos

No I'm not at war with many Muslims, infact I find a lot in common with the reasonably minded ones due to being from Christianity another Abrahamic faith. We just need to cut out this form of militantism. Violence should not be tolerated as a part of any world faith, and people like me in Christianity need to stand up against Christians who promote extremist views, and people like moderate Muslims need to speak out against Islamist extremism in the Arab world.

getz

a lot of my muslim friends told me that the main reason many younger muslims are turning to terrorism is down to the teachers of the religion preaching the hate of the west--one lad said they change the teaching to what ever the followers of that mosque wish to hear at that time ----nearly all the teachers are from strong islamic states --who feel western ways are a evil

---

i believe the big problem is that islam is still a young religion only 1500 years old it is still trying to find its feet in the world ---just think what our religious leaders were doing to humanity in the 1500s

djpbarry

getz wrote: »

a lot of my muslim friends told me that the main reason many younger muslims are turning to terrorism is down to the teachers of the religion preaching the hate of the west--one lad said they change the teaching to what ever the followers of that mosque wish to hear at that time ----nearly all the teachers are from strong islamic states --who feel western ways are a evil

---

i believe the big problem is that islam is still a young religion only 1500 years old it is still trying to find its feet in the world ---just think what our religious leaders were doing to humanity in the 1500s

Still waiting on a source for your earlier claims.

getz

try press.homeoffice.gov.uk----press-releases

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and www.strategypage.com--- march 5 2008 this will tell you about islamic terrists found making bombs in the republic and not for use in the uk

djpbarry

getz wrote: »

try press.homeoffice.gov.uk----press-releases

---

and www.strategypage.com--- march 5 2008 this will tell you about islamic terrists found making bombs in the republic and not for use in the uk

I'm not digging up your sources for you. It's up to you to back up your arguments with specific references.

lostexpectation

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htterr/articles/20080305.aspx

pathethic

Three Afghan men were recently arrested, in a room full of bomb making materials

which was shown to be absolutly nothing. just as tech hobbiest.


they might be some fundraising etc.and people keeping out of the way, but nought much else.

getz

yep it makes sense -three afgans in aflat with bomb making equipment who have been followed from northern ireland by the intelligence services and all for education -do you belong to the flat earth society ?

djpbarry

getz wrote: »

yep it makes sense -three afgans in aflat with bomb making equipment ...

If I recall correctly, they didn't actually have any explosives at all, just some electronic devices, the likes of which pretty much everyone has in their home. I could be wrong, but I don't think anything came of it.