Reccomend a puppy that would be good with Kids

JohnnieM

Hi Guys,
I'm looking for a dog that would be good with kids But not to big (like a lab) and not too small like a Yorkie..Dont want it getting all wet in long grass etc etc..(it will be living outdoors in a kennel..) Something that would play fetch would be very important...We have 4 kids ranging in age from 10 to 2 and have a good big garden... it will be getting a lot of play time with them.
last year we got a wicklow collie (not a pure bred) but unfortunatly it ddidnt work out as it would snap at them if he she was feeding.. So no collies either.
Ive searched the forums and see a lot of good talk about staffie's (the nanny dog) but I'm afraid they look too agressive and have the ability to be v powerful. so they're out too..
All suggestions welcome..Thanks in advance
J

peasant

JohnnieM wrote: »

last year we got a wicklow collie (not a pure bred) but unfortunatly it ddidnt work out as it would snap at them if he she was feeding.. So no collies either.

Any other dog would probably do the same, if you allow your kids to grope at its food while it is eating.

I would strongly suggest that you read up some more on training dogs and children how to behave around each other before you get another one.

Once you get the training and suverpision right and set up some ground rules that both the dog and kids have to follow, you can get pretty much any dog you want.

cowzerp

collies are the most nippy of dogs, but with proper training dogs should let you touch there food, either way, your kids should leave them to eat alone..

staffs are so friendly to children and known as nanny dogs.
i would not suggest you get any dog though if your going to give it back as soon as its not doing everything you want..

check out www.dogsindistress.org for plenty of dogs that need saving.

DeepBlue

You might consider the Kerry Blue terrier. Good with kids and very affectionate.

arybvtcw0eolkf

If the Collie was a puppy I'm not surprised it was snapping, all puppies snap.

You don't want a Staff as they 'look agressive and have the ability to be very powerful'', well although people do keep Staffies outside they're really not suited to cold weather so it think its a case of you not being suited to a Staffie.

OP, what have YOU got to give to a dog?, and trust me although you have four children their devotion to their new toy will be short lived and you can't throw them outside with the dog!.

My recommendation to you, in all seriousness, is to consider short term fostering first to see if your ready to commit to owning a dog.

You can checkout www.dogsindistress.org http://petsireland.invisionzone.com/ or some of the other organisations around the country (links are posted on those sites)

EGAR

I am going to get on my soapbox now: four kids ranging in age from 2-10 AND a puppy...

Puppies, regardless of their breed, are ALOT of work. Four kids are alot of work too. And there are no ready trained pups which will suffer kids behaving improperly towards them. You need to train the kids how to properly handle a pup and you need to train the pup, e.g. houstraining, leash training, socialising with other dogs, basic obedience etc. Pups will go through teething stages, they will mouth and they have needle sharp teeth. The skin of a 2yro might not be a match for a teething pup and you don't have eyes in the back of your head.

I would suggest that you get a properly assessed adult dog first which is used to children and can take the hussle and bussle of a four kid household, especially since your kids will have friends over at some stage. You will save yourself, the kids and the dog alot of trouble.

Quite a few rescues have a 10+ years rule in place regarding rehoming to families with children and I fully agree unless the dog has been fully assessed.

I run a rescue AND I have a now 4 yro child and believe me, it aint a walk in the park. My lad has the basics, e.g. do not disturb and eating/sleeping dog but it took a while to get there.

And WHY get a canine family member if you are not prepared to go the whole nine yards? Why shut it away outside? Dogs are pack animals, they crave and deserve company.

*I am off my soapbox now.*

lakes

i have a staffie & could not recommend any other dog!! full of energy & the most playful of dogs i know! shes great wit other dogs, has never shown aggression & has never snapped at anyone!

arybvtcw0eolkf

lakes wrote: »

i have a staffie & could not recommend any other dog!! full of energy & the most playful of dogs i know! shes great wit other dogs, has never shown aggression & has never snapped at anyone!

Impossible :P

steamjetjoe

OP, A German Shepherd would be a good family dog. Very loyal. Prob a bit big though.

The Sweeper

It's pretty simple.

Untrained dogs + untrained kids = disaster.

Even the sweetest natured dog may snap if pushed to the limit by kids who don't know how to behave with a dog. Saying that, you can't determinedly teach your toddler not to reach for something in the dog's food bowl - or even reach down to feed the dog a treat into their bowl while it's eating something else.

I wouldn't go by breed either - go to a rescue on your own (because if your kids get attached to a dog at the pound and it's an unsuitable dog, they'll just be disappointed again) and select a bright, interested pup or juvenile dog who shows a friendly nature but isn't necessarily jumping to the ceiling at the sight of you. Play with the animal for a while and get all the information on its background from the rescue staff. Try yourself and see if the animal is food aggressive, plays very rough, shows fright from which it doesn't recover at relatively normal things (a dropped food dish, a loudly banged door).

When you take the dog home, you need to assume responsibility as its trainer, feeder and walker. Take it for puppy training classes yourself, and when you get home pass on what you learn to your kids. Think of it this way - it's your dog, it's their playmate.

Sharpshooter

JohnnieM wrote: »

Hi Guys,
I'm looking for a dog that would be good with kids But not to big (like a lab) and not too small like a Yorkie..Dont want it getting all wet in long grass etc etc..(it will be living outdoors in a kennel..) Something that would play fetch would be very important...We have 4 kids ranging in age from 10 to 2 and have a good big garden... it will be getting a lot of play time with them.
last year we got a wicklow collie (not a pure bred) but unfortunatly it ddidnt work out as it would snap at them if he she was feeding.. So no collies either.
Ive searched the forums and see a lot of good talk about staffie's (the nanny dog) but I'm afraid they look too agressive and have the ability to be v powerful. so they're out too..
All suggestions welcome..Thanks in advance
J

Are you looking for a distraction for your children?
l dont mean to be crass here but you really should not
get a dog at the moment.
Read your post and see for yourself how it looks.
Could you not get an animal less agressive than a
dog can get , if it's eating time is interupted by children
who know no better.
Maybe start off with a couple of Goldfish , to teach your
children about careing and feeding for their pet.
Goldfish cannot hurt your children , but any Dog no matter the breed can turn and snap if left with children
who dont know how to interact with it.
Also you say " Something " "that would play fetch would
be very important"
Are you actually seeing this Something as an addition to your family or as a Plaything for your children?
l hope you don't take this reply the wrong way , l simply
would like you to see your post the way l did.:)

Top Dog

Like Sharpshooter, I also think you should re-read your original post and ask yourself what you really want and what you have to offer. Getting a dog to keep outside for occasional play is not fair on the poor dog. You say it will get a lot of play in your large garden with your kids, but lets be honest, in Irish weather - how long do you think it will take before the novelty of playing in the rain will wash off with your kids?

Dogs are pack animals, and as such love being around their pack (in this case your family). If it is to spend the majority of its time banished to the back garden then this is frankly, cruel. It doesn't matter whether your back garden is the size of a small car or is 3 acres, if the dog is isolated out there then its no good for their development. Put any dog in this situation and it won't be long before you're posting up a HELP thread because you cannot get the dog to stop jumping on people (this will be because it gets so excited at the rare opportunity of interaction with another being).

You need to ask yourself some questions as to whether a dog is really the best idea for you and your family ...
Will you train it consistently?
Will you walk it consistently?
Will you play with it consistently?
Will it be allowed in the house?

If the answer to any of the above is no, then a dog isn't for you. Maybe a rabbit or hamster would be a better idea.

If you really are determined to get a dog, then I think Mairt's suggestion of short-term fostering first is a fantastic idea. Much better than getting another dog and realising its not working again after a month or two.

Senor Willy

Go for a Border Collie. Smartest dog around and full of energy.
Needs plenty of exercise though.

JohnnieM

Thanks everyone for the replys .. some really good advise there.. (although some people are reading my post a bit to literally).The kids wernt going for the food they would be just petting while dog was eating.,. it also snapped once when one of them fell on her..(the dog)..It will be in the allowed in the house but will live out doors..
.Think i may go the foster route..

kerrysgold

Fostering is a great idea. Not only does it help out a needy dog (probably saving it's life if you're helping out a "poundie") but it gives you an idea of what it's like to look after a dog.

as for keeping the dog outside, what is your reason for this?

I think a pair of greyhounds would make great pets around children as they have such perfect temperaments. (indoor dogs though, totally unsuited to living outdoors) staffies make perfect pets as well, they are 100% complete softies and love to play with kids. they are tough little dogs as well so can handle playing with kids and love to play football etc! they are also short coated and feel the cold easily though so are also unsuited to living outdoors.

It's not only the dog that needs training though, the kids need training to respect the dog. i.e. don't disturb it when eating/resting, don't pull it's ears/fur, don't poke it etc! Even the most happy dog could snap if it's constantly harassed.

It's good to get a crate for the dog and don't let the children near it so the dog can have his own space where he can go if he wants to be left alone completely.

peasant

JohnnieM wrote: »

.The kids wernt going for the food they would be just petting while dog was eating.

Same difference, really. The dog was disturbed while doing the one thing that is most important to it: eat.

You wouldn't like it either if ti was done to you. But whereas you can tell your children to stop and behave, all a dog can do is growl or snap.

You have to realise that introducing a dog to four small children means a huge amount of work and supervision. You need to be there all the time to prevent scenes like the above from happening. The dog is going to need just as much care and time as any of the children, albeit of a slightly different kind.

Glowing

Yeah - if I were you OP, I'd leave it a couple of years until your youngest is at least 4 .... it doesn't really sound like you want to make the effort to properly train the dog or spend time with him or her anyway.

BanzaiBk

Do you want a dog? Or are the kids demanding one? I don't think a dog fits into your lives at this point.

lakes

Mairt wrote: »

Impossible :P

How is it impossible? why would i say it if it wasnt true!? maybe your dogs have shown aggression!!? My staffie was kept wit 2 other terrier mix's for 3 months & while the other 2 terriers would occasionly fight wit each other my softie of a staffie would be jumping in & out playing! if the other terriers snapped at her she wouldnt even snap back!! so MAIRT dont tell me its impossible & call me a liar!!;) Once again my staffie HAS NEVER SNAPPED OR SHOWN AGGRESSION TO ANYONE OR ANY DOG

EGAR

Lakes, I read Mairt's comment as being ironic rather than serious e.g. according to the press hype your statement can't be true whereas we know it is, since we know these dogs.

Mairt can correct me if I am wrong.

miss_shadow

i don't think you should be allowed to own any pets.

Ancee

Cavalier King Charles are perfect pets for kids, quiet, lovable and not too big. My 10 year old died last year and is greatly missed. I can honestly say he never snapped or growled at anyone and put up with a fair amount of rough play. He was a brown and white chap, I think the black and whites can be snappy.

But a dog is not for locking in the garden unless you want a guard dog, they're part of the family and as such should be allowed indoors. Think carefully if you're not prepared to allow your dog indoors much. Dogs get lonely too!

Lady Lainy

I think fostering would be very tough on your kids, the younger children wouldn't understand why they have to say good bye to there dog. Im sure it would be heartbreaking watching them tear up.

I would advise a DOG over a bitch, as they can be quite moody and aggressive especially towards young children, cocker spaniels and Jack Russel in particular from my own experience have very little tolerance for young children.

I would suggest visiting a rescue center as many rehoming facilities, examine the dogs behavior, to assess weather the dog so suited for a family with young children or an older family. The dogs would also be vaccinated which means you don't have to fork out vet bills.

miss_shadow

lakes wrote: »

How is it impossible? why would i say it if it wasnt true!? maybe your dogs have shown aggression!!? My staffie was kept wit 2 other terrier mix's for 3 months & while the other 2 terriers would occasionly fight wit each other my softie of a staffie would be jumping in & out playing! if the other terriers snapped at her she wouldnt even snap back!! so MAIRT dont tell me its impossible & call me a liar!!;) Once again my staffie HAS NEVER SNAPPED OR SHOWN AGGRESSION TO ANYONE OR ANY DOG

my staff/lab is the most loyal,behaved,loving,playful,good with other dogs, except my mothers dog as they are both territorial dogs/only snapped at my son when he was pulling her skin off/she is a rescue dog and has a mutated ear probably due to forced dog fight meaning the odds of her being vicious are high !! so all in all i think i have done either a really good job in making her the dog she is today or she just isn't an aggressive dog...or both

people forget that like humans, dogs get depressed,angry,sad,upset,psycho happy and happy. is it so hard to believe.

now i have a question,
my dog is very very nervous, she is scared mostly of brushes and sudden movement. but is quite protective of me, i'm not sure why this is? either the last owner hit her with a brush, but when i got her from the ispca the man in the uniform (whatever he was) that gets the dog from the kennels has that long pole with a loop in the end to catch the dog, maybe this destress's the dog and thats where she got it. but i can't understand why she is still nervous, i've had her since 13th may. it just frustrated me to see her like this , anything i can do? or advice?

mary123

Ancee wrote: »

Cavalier King Charles are perfect pets for kids, quiet, lovable and not too big. My 10 year old died last year and is greatly missed. I can honestly say he never snapped or growled at anyone and put up with a fair amount of rough play. He was a brown and white chap, I think the black and whites can be snappy.

A brown and white is called a blenhem, what u say about the black and white is a load of rubbish for the simple reason been there is no b/w. U have the blenhem, tri, ruby and black and tan. The only dif been is the colours.

JohnnieM

Ancee wrote: »

Cavalier King Charles are perfect pets for kids, quiet, lovable and not too big. My 10 year old died last year and is greatly missed. I can honestly say he never snapped or growled at anyone and put up with a fair amount of rough play. He was a brown and white chap, I think the black and whites can be snappy.

But a dog is not for locking in the garden unless you want a guard dog, they're part of the family and as such should be allowed indoors. Think carefully if you're not prepared to allow your dog indoors much. Dogs get lonely too!

Thanks for that.. Thats what I need some Brandnames (Thats a joke) ..I intend taking time finding the dog could take a while youngest is nearly three so If I wait say i year ,we'll hit the four mark...Just so you all know the dog will be a big part of the family (extra member) just we may not allow Him/her indoors for the night.(maybe in time I could persuade the wife to allow Him/her indoors)
Seriously though all the posts have made me do a re-think.. and I'm taking all your info on board..and thanks for that....The fostering option does sound quite good.. But I could still do with some advise on breeds etc etc.. What a NO NO and whats a Maybe..

animalcrazy

Well it's not so much to do with the breed but with the temperment and training of the dog.

Top Dog

JohnnieM, I'm glad to see that all the posts have made you think and that you're taking things on board. At the end of the day a lot of us are passionate about our pets so we try to make sure that people considering getting a pet are made aware of as much relevant info as possible so they can make an educated decision.

Good luck with your search

Sharpshooter

animalcrazy wrote: »

Well it's not so much to do with the breed but with the temperment and training of the dog.

Agreed , plus the temperment of your children which l have no doubt they are grand but you would have to match any dog you decide on with the way they react
around dogs in general.:)
There is so much more to it than just deciding to get a dog , as l am sure you are finding out.:D
l do hope that things work out for you and that a worthwhile dog gets a worthwhile home.:)

peasant

As for breeds:
There is not one breed that is guaranteed to be good with children (contrary to what the websites say).
If you don't train the dog and the children right on how to behave around each other, you will have desaster on your hands ...that much is guaranteed.

There are however a few breeds which are not advisable for busy families with small children. They would be breeds of typical strong willed one-man dogs like most northern types (Husky, Malamute, Eskimo dogs, etc), Chow-Chows, most of the traditional flock guardians (Kuvasz, Komondor, Great Pyrenees, etc) as well as traditional hunting terriers (Border Terrier, Bedlington and some more obscure breeds). Personally I'd also advise to stay away from Westies.

HashSlinging

i've a manchester terrier bitch and shes like a nannie!

bnagrrl

JohnnieM wrote: »

Thanks for that.. Thats what I need some Brandnames (Thats a joke) ..I intend taking time finding the dog could take a while youngest is nearly three so If I wait say i year ,we'll hit the four mark...Just so you all know the dog will be a big part of the family (extra member) just we may not allow Him/her indoors for the night.(maybe in time I could persuade the wife to allow Him/her indoors)
Seriously though all the posts have made me do a re-think.. and I'm taking all your info on board..and thanks for that....The fostering option does sound quite good.. But I could still do with some advise on breeds etc etc.. What a NO NO and whats a Maybe..

I have a Cavalier - they do not like to be outdoors for long periods of time so if you want a dog to live outdoors (as per your 1st post) please rethink getting a Cav, I don't think they are hardy enough. They are very needy dogs and want almost constant companionship. They are (like all purebreeds) prone to certain genetic illness so you should only get one from a reputable breeder (same goes for all PB.)

I was the youngest of 4 kids at age 8 when my parents allowed us get a dog (the eldest being 20). Looking back I think I was too young to fully understand the responsibilities that go with a dog, so I think at ages 2 - 10 your children will have no idea of the many chores that go with a pet. A dog should not be brought into a home as a plaything for children, for them to put out in the garden when they are bored of it. If YOU want to get a dog and are willing to do all the hard, dirty work (picking up the poop, grooming, vet's visits, walks in the lashings of rain on dark winter nights etc etc)and allow your children the fun, companionship and pleasure a dog can offer then go for it.

Sorry if my post is long and rambling but I've seen so many dogs that were got "for the kids" end up abandoned when things didn't work out.

Dave147

peasant wrote: »

Any other dog would probably do the same, if you allow your kids to grope at its food while it is eating.

I would strongly suggest that you read up some more on training dogs and children how to behave around each other before you get another one.

Once you get the training and suverpision right and set up some ground rules that both the dog and kids have to follow, you can get pretty much any dog you want.

Absolutely great advice peasant, fair play

I've had a labrador since I was 14, sisters were 7 and 12 years old. He has a fantastic temperament, he never gets angry or threatening, ok he's big enough but he's well trained as we have been trying to teach him how to behave from a young age. He is absolutely handsome, he's become part of our family he even has his own stocking with his name on it for christmas! and I would be lost without him!
I would recommend not ruling out a labrador, you are missing out on the most beautiful animal in the world if you get a good one

lostinnappies

cavalier king charles

lostinnappies

bnagrrl wrote: »

I have a Cavalier - they do not like to be outdoors for long periods of time so if you want a dog to live outdoors (as per your 1st post) please rethink getting a Cav, I don't think they are hardy enough.

Well any dog is capable of living out doors imho so long as they have proper shelter. After all that IS why they have fur. I think it just depends on the dog.

Glowing

Well greyhounds wouldn't be - they'd need proper shelter, with carpet and heating, i.e a house

lostinnappies

Glowing wrote: »

Well greyhounds wouldn't be - they'd need proper shelter, with carpet and heating, i.e a house

Actally having been to the artic and seen how some husky dogs are kept, i saw they used husky/whipet cross breeds for professional racing (you know with the sleds). These were very very short haired dogs, they were kept out side, each had an individual wooden "box" they slept in by themselves. These dogs were only brought in if the temp dropped below -40C. Otherwise they would be left outside, and were perfectly happy and healthy, including the puppies that were out there.

Noopti

lostinnappies wrote: »

Well any dog is capable of living out doors imho so long as they have proper shelter. After all that IS why they have fur. I think it just depends on the dog.

Sorry, but that is crap. Different dog breeds have different fur/coats. The Cavaliers coat makes them not suited to living outdoors.

Edit: And just because a dog has a short coat does not mean it can't stand cold temperatures. It is all down to insulation. The cavaliers, for example do not have a undercoat to protect them from very cold temps

lostinnappies

Noopti wrote: »

Sorry, but that is crap. Different dog breeds have different fur/coats. The Cavaliers coat makes them not suited to living outdoors.

So long as they have the proper shelter any dog can live out doors. I know my Aunt had a Cav who lived outdoors nearly 24/7. He never wanted to come inside. He lived in a little shed that had a bean bag. He was perfectly happy and never got ill. Infact he is about 13 years old now and still lives out doors. so it aint BS if it is being done.

Edit: The short coat i was referring to was Very VERY short, as i said in the previous post. Its density was only slightly more dense then a pure breed whipet (which isnt much)

Noopti

You have a very narrow view of dogs coats. You equate "fur" to being able to live in cold conditions. I'm sorry but that is incorrect. There are huge differences between certain breeds coats.....they are bred that way, based on their functions.

So long as they have the proper shelter

Yes, correct. So a certain breed might need a warm, dry shelter. Another breed might just need somewhere dry.
Furthermore, some breeds are companion dogs and as such, need to be part of the family (pack). So putting certain dogs in the back yard all day, with maybe a couple of hours interaction with their family is pretty cruel in my opinion.
In fact, this would apply to all dogs in my opinion, but it certainly affects certain breeds more than others

Glowing

It's a known fact that greyhounds don't have the body fat that other dogs have and therefore don't do well outdoors. If they have the 'proper shelter' i.e insulated and heated, then they're not really living outdoors are they?

Why do you think they make coats for dogs?

lostinnappies

Oh my goodness me. Of course there is different types of fur and fur densities which have been designed by nature to accommodate different breeds of dog to live OUTSIDE for the different climates they live in. But thats just my point, we live in a temperate climate, its not the artic, its not the sahara, there is no reason in the world why a dog cant live outside. Save for the human emotions and ideas that are projected onto them. Im sorry but NO dog needs a coat thats just laughable. rofl.

So youre all telling me if humans died off, so would all the dogs because they wouldnt be able to look after themselves and might get cold, they are more capable of looking after themselves and surviving outside in the rain and cold then some people allow them to be.

Noopti

lostinnappies wrote: »

So youre all telling me if humans died off, so would all the dogs because they wouldnt be able to look after themselves and might get cold, they are more capable of looking after themselves and surviving outside in the rain and cold then some people allow them to be.

Eh....yeah. A LOT of dog breeds would die off.

fur densities which have been designed by nature to accommodate different breeds of dog to live OUTSIDE

Toy breeds are not "designed" to live outside. Plus most of the breeds we have today have not been "designed" by nature. They have been breed by humans for certain conditions/work.

lostinnappies

Noopti wrote: »

Furthermore, some breeds are companion dogs and as such, need to be part of the family (pack). So putting certain dogs in the back yard all day, with maybe a couple of hours interaction with their family is pretty cruel in my opinion.
In fact, this would apply to all dogs in my opinion, but it certainly affects certain breeds more than others

you are completly correct. If you want a family dog they yes they need to be part of the family, i dont debate this because you're right.

What im saying is there is no reason a dog cant be left outside in our climate thats just sillyness. Some people have big problems leaving the dog outside for more then an hour. I personally think if you're not home all day then let the poor dog out all day. Wither ist sunny, wet, or snowing. The dog will not die.

And to baby and coddle a dog to me is more cruel then anything else. Infact i have heard rumours amonst the "vetinary world" of trying to ban coats and jackets for animals other then horses and racing animals. Not that it would ever happen because some people just dont see the cruelty in it.

Noopti

No-one is saying that you can't let the dog outside. We have a cavalier and we leave the backdoor open and she runs in and out of her own accord. However, she is not suited to living outside. That is, she is not bred to live out in a kennel/shed, especially during the winter.
However a working farm dog for example, like a collie, is more suited to this lifestyle, then a lap dog.

lostinnappies

Noopti wrote: »

Eh....yeah. A LOT of dog breeds would die off.


Toy breeds are not "designed" to live outside. Plus most of the breeds we have today have not been "designed" by nature. They have been breed by humans for certain conditions/work.

Although some dogs have been manipulated by humans and at the moment arent as you say "designed" to live out doors, all animals are capable of adapting to new enviornments. I believe that the only reason they wouldnt is because of the spoiling they get from humans, and if they were allowed to be what they are (animals) there is no reason they wouldnt survive. (although i would say that hairless dogs wouldnt stand much a chance because it would take them too long to adapt ie develop fur)

Glowing

Yes they would die off.

Greyhounds have specially made coats so they can cope with low temperatures .... ask any breeder or trainer ... they'll have wardrobes of the things...

lostinnappies

Glowing wrote: »

Yes they would die off.

Greyhounds have specially made coats so they can cope with low temperatures .... ask any breeder or trainer ... they'll have wardrobes of the things...

eeeewwwwwweeee

Noopti

So you are saying that if all humans died off, and there were no more spoils from humans, that is...waste to scavenge, that Yorkshire Terriers would survive? I doubt it.

Dogs that would be capable of hunting would have a chance to survive, but a dog that is bred purely as a companion for a human would have little chance.

Nature adapts, yes, but not that quickly. A Yorkshire terrier wouldn't grow longer legs, a thicker coat and a more formidable set of teeth overnight.

Noopti

lostinnappies wrote: »

eeeewwwwwweeee

Case closed. :rolleyes:

lostinnappies

hey yorkies are more capable then they lead you to believe. Ive seen some go after an animal 5 times their size and win. They wouldnt be looking to kill and eat something they are not capable of killing but there is certainly prey out there they are capable of killing (rats, mice, rabbits etc) which they would be perfectly able to survive off of right now, and over time and probably with cross breeding(cos dogs arent picky) it wouldnt take them long.