Transitioning to live cash

Jim_Cannon

Hi all,

I’m a decent enough online micro stakes NL player (around 8 BB/100 at 50 NL, member of Deuces Cracked, read most of the key books etc). I also do quite well when I play live – a few good tourney scores in Ireland and when I was in Vegas for a few days in the summer, I made a very healthy profit from the $1/2 game.

I just have a question about transitioning to live cash games in Dublin. My approach has been to build a BR online, as well as play live tourneys, get up to where I’m properly rolled for 200 NL, and then start playing live cash as well as online. That’s for obvious BR management reasons, I mean in theory you’d need at least €5k in your BR to play most live cash in Dublin. It will clearly take me a while to grind out that BR online.

My question is whether it is worth taking a shot at some live cash before my BR reaches that level? In Vegas, I felt it was worth taking a shot, because the games were so unbelievably soft. Is it worth me taking a similar shot at live cash at certain times/locations in Dublin. As in, just how soft are live cash games in general, but also at prime times, Fri/Sat night? Does it make it worth my while to sit down even if I’m not properly rolled? How does your average 1/2PL live compare to online?

Thanks for your help!

flushje

I found tourneys and 1/2 cash very soft in Vegas too,but I generally dont play cash in Ireland, stick too online for B/R imo. Im a generally live tourney player though so maybe someone more experienced will answer your question

Macspower

Wd done on your online results....

To take live cash seriously in Dublin you need a much bigger roll... As the games are loose and play more like a 2/5 game than a 1/2 game the swings will be bigger so you need a bigger roll to beat them long term..

that said nothing wrong with a shot every now and then... you run hot you never know what might happen...

gl with it

Killme00

Hey Jim,

Welcome to Boards Poker. You should try to justify why you want to play live poker, if it is to make money you would be better sticking to online because generally the only winner in live poker in Dublin is the rake. I play live poker because i find it fun and a nice distraction from the game i play online.

It is very soft though but at time it can be excruciatingly slow depending on the number of tables you play online. My advice to you would be not to take a shot but to pop in and play a few hours for fun and to see how you feel about it yourself.

TommyGunne

Im gonna have to disagree with a few of the above. IMO if your 8BB/100 at 50NL you can obv beat live cash. If you wanna play it properly rolled I would say you should need in or around €3000. This is only 15 buy ins cos the game is so incredibly bad. If you have an 8BB/100 wr at 50NL 15 bi is well enough if you play a regular 1/2 game with no straddle.

It can be soulcrushingly boring though so try to either bring a friend, iPod or just be prepared to talk ****e all night.

Imo taking a one buy in shot when you can afford it is not a bad thing, and can be quite a boost to your bankroll. Only warning is that if your effective stack gets above like 200BB when you've a short br then you should just leave.

Mellor

I agree with Tommy, 50nl online is the same 200nl live,
You don't need €5000 to play,
but stick to online to grind out a profit
and use live as a device to keep you sane,
trying to turn a major profit in live cash is soul destroying, not because its hard, but the bordom, after playing say 4 table as 100 h/hr each, switching to 30 h/hr will drive you made

hotspur

TommyGunne wrote: »

Im gonna have to disagree with a few of the above. IMO if your 8BB/100 at 50NL you can obv beat live cash.

I don't think this is remotely true, 50nl can hardly be considered real poker, and while your average cash player in Dublin is a donkey and the games very soft you will almost always have at least one and probably a few players who are far better than what you will find at 50nl online. Someone who plays 50nl is still strictly a learning player right?

Mellor

hotspur wrote: »

I don't think this is remotely true, 50nl can hardly be considered real poker, and while your average cash player in Dublin is a donkey and the games very soft you will almost always have at least one and probably a few players who are far better than what you will find at 50nl online. Someone who plays 50nl is still strictly a learning player right?

At what stage are you no longer a learning player?
Surely its all reletive.

and Tommy never said all players at 50nl are the same as live, nor did I
He said if you are beating 50nl for 8BB/100, then you are able to beat live 1/2.
I see no reasonm why this isn't true, 8BB its pretty big at any level

The average 1/2 live player is pretty bad

OilBeefHooked2

Can some one answer a quick question does 8BB = 16bb?

thedini

david-k wrote: »

Can some one answer a quick question does 8BB = 16bb?

8 ptbb = 16 bb

TommyGunne

hotspur wrote: »

I don't think this is remotely true, 50nl can hardly be considered real poker, and while your average cash player in Dublin is a donkey and the games very soft you will almost always have at least one and probably a few players who are far better than what you will find at 50nl online. Someone who plays 50nl is still strictly a learning player right?

I was beating live cash games easily and for a good winrate before I started to be able to properly beat online. I've never come across a live table where I wasn't extremely comfortable, and I'm no high stakes grinder. Even when I was playing 20NL I was most definitely a big winner live. (I kept my online roll seperate from live for ages and still kinda do.) There have often been players much better than me at my table, but that doesn't mean the table wasn't sick soft.

Obv there will very often be better players at the table than at 50NL, but IMO there are also a few that are much much worse. I think anyone that has an 8BB wr at 50NL can easily adapt to crush live. I doubt that a few of the winning live regs could beat 50NL for example. The games play significantly differently but its still sick soft. I honestly can't imagine why anyone with an 8BB wr at 50NL couldn't beat live 1/2.

Also every player at every level is still a learning player.

hotspur

Maybe times have changed so much I don't even realise it. Back when I started it was:
Week 1 read Theory of Poker etc and play some $5 sit n gos
Week 2 start playing and beating 25nl
Week 4-8 start playing and beating 50nl
And you were beating 1/2 within 6 months of learning the hand chart.

Basically playing 50nl meant you were a total beginner who didn't know anything about poker. When I said a learning player I meant it pretty literally - still learning the very basics of hold em.

You can play live 1/2pl against fish in Dublin and drop a grand without doing much wrong all night, that's a whole bankroll for 50nl hence my surprise at the disparity between playing 50nl and easily winning live. If you have the roll and skill to easily beat 1/2pl live why the hell are you still stuck playing 50nl for peanuts?

We are talking about advising a 50nl player here about whether to play in games that play 10 times bigger, I think caution is called for in asserting that beating microstakes means you are a competent enough player to be playing much bigger games live outside your bankroll. The OP has said he doesn't have the roll but some of you are saying 'yeah go ahead you're good enough'. He hasn't even said what number of hands his win rate is over. I would advise the OP not to take a shot live, the upsides aren't big enough for the downsides.

Jim_Cannon

Thanks for all the answers so far.

Let me clarify a couple of things first – the 8 bb/100 stat I’m using is from HEM, which I’m fairly sure is big blinds / 100, not ptbb/100 – so it would be equivalent to 4 ptbb/100. My sample size at 50 NL is heading towards 20k. I 4-table.

Re the quality of 50 NL, I think things have probably changed a lot since you were playing it hotspur. My experience is that the vast majority at that level now know basically what they’re doing, with a reasonable number of good regular TAGs. Harrington on Cash says that $1/2 live is equivalent to 25 NL online now, which would have been my experience in Vegas, but I presume it’s of a higher quality in Dublin.

From the answers generally though it seems that the games are very soft. I’ll probably take some of my live tourney winnings and give some live cash a go, see what it’s like like most people seem to be recommending. When / where is it softest in general – from lurking here I’d presume maybe the Jackpot on Friday / Saturday night – is that correct?

Also any suggestions re adjustments to Pot Limit as opposed to NL. There’s a bit in the Full Tilt strategy book about playing PL, which basically argues that you can play less speculative hands, because you’re less likely to get sufficiently paid off in PL format. Any other advice about playing PL?

TommyGunne

hotspur wrote: »

Maybe times have changed so much I don't even realise it. Back when I started it was:
Week 1 read Theory of Poker etc and play some $5 sit n gos
Week 2 start playing and beating 25nl
Week 4-8 start playing and beating 50nl
And you were beating 1/2 within 6 months of learning the hand chart.

Basically playing 50nl meant you were a total beginner who didn't know anything about poker. When I said a learning player I meant it pretty literally - still learning the very basics of hold em.

You can play live 1/2pl against fish in Dublin and drop a grand without doing much wrong all night, that's a whole bankroll for 50nl hence my surprise at the disparity between playing 50nl and easily winning live. If you have the roll and skill to easily beat 1/2pl live why the hell are you still stuck playing 50nl for peanuts?

We are talking about advising a 50nl player here about whether to play in games that play 10 times bigger, I think caution is called for in asserting that beating microstakes means you are a competent enough player to be playing much bigger games live outside your bankroll. The OP has said he doesn't have the roll but some of you are saying 'yeah go ahead you're good enough'. He hasn't even said what number of hands his win rate is over. I would advise the OP not to take a shot live, the upsides aren't big enough for the downsides.

I would assume its a good bit tougher now, but I may be wrong. I did mention roll in one of my posts anyways, but you are completely right obv, and that is one thing the OP should be really careful of. IMO a 1 bi shot when you have about 2k or whatever is not gonna kill you though, especially if your young and your roll is a little fluid. Obv I wouldn't recommend doing more than 1 bi, or playing on if you double up or staying if you find the table tough, but I think it can be beneficial to the optimal growth of your roll if you don't go mad on it. You are definitely right to give the warning though, and you may be right.

I think a lot of posters on here can confirm that I was easily beating live for a long time for a good winrate while I was "still stuck playing 50nl for peanuts."

The easiest places to play are the jackpot on weekend nights, and the fitz any time.

colquhom

the standard of live poker is absolutely laughable. there is no doubt in my mind someone who is beating 50nl for a decent winrate would beat live poker in dublin. yes there will be players far better than you, but they will be far outweighed in number by drunken idiots in the Jackpot at the weekend looking to "keep ya honest"

Jim_Cannon

OK - a trip report for anyone who might stumble upon this wondering what I was wondering. Two observations from Jackpot Fri night/Sat morning:

1. God they're donkeys. (The majority were significantly worse than 50 NL online - literally call all the way with anything, pair, ace high, regardless of situation!) In fairness, there were some decent players as the night wore on, but still enough fish to make it easier than 50 NL.

2. God it's boring. (I found it far more boring than cash in Vegas, not sure if that's because I've gotten used to four-tabling six max, or if the absence of drink for others made it more boring, or my complete absence of cards - but either way incredibly boring - the ipod was essential, thanks for suggestion).

cardshark202

anyone who can beat 50nl online for a decent amount can 100% beat live cash in dublin, and will be significantly better than the average.

valor

why would you want to make this transition

Macspower

valor wrote: »

why would you want to make this transition

been playing a little live myself this week and you've hit the nail on the head... why...

god it was painfull playing live cash...

thedini

same as, I've played about 3/4 times in a casino in 08(drunkedly) just cant do it. standard is atrocious worse than 20NL imo but 20 odd hds an hour keep it

Flipz4Rollz

valor wrote: »

why would you want to make this transition

Prob finds online boring or live 1/2 easier to beat than grinding 50nl online
Plus the social interaction that you dont get online.
Imo online is much better craic