Nothing too serious, yet :)

cormie

Hi,
Think it's about time I tried out recording some music. Total newbie, so going by the sticky here's my info:

- What you wish to record. Solo vocals, acoustic guitar, a band, a ukulele orchestra, or whatever. Be as detailed as you think is necessary.
Classical Guitar with no input, upright Piano, solo vocals mainly, maybe a bit of bodhran, harmonica, saucepans and spoons, whatever

- Where you wish to record. Your rehearsal space, your garage, your bedroom, etc.
Just my place at the moment

- Whether you have a PC or whether you intend to buy one. Operating system, RAM, and soundcard are the important factors here.
I have this laptop:

V1500 CORE 2 DUO T5470 1.60GHz,800,2M 1 850.00 850.00
N11150010 1
Vostro 1500 15.4 WXGA+ True Life 1
Vostro 1500 Black cover Camera 1
Free Memory upgrade from 1024GB to 2048GB 667MHZ 1
Save Euro 110 Ex Vat 1
1500 Ship Accessories UK 1
English Documentation Vostro 1500 1
Vostro Resource DVD - (Diagnostics & Drivers) 1
2048 MB 667 MHz Dual-Channel DDR2 SDRAM (2x 1024 MB) 1
Hard Drive 160GB Serial ATA (5400RPM) 1
Fixed Internal 8X DVD+/-RW Drive 1
90W AC Adapter - 2 wire 1
Primary 6-cell 56WHr Li-Ion Battery 1
Not Included Carry Case 1
256 MB NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 1
Irish/Spanish Modem Cable and Adapter Internal V.92 Data, Fax, Voice Functions 1
Intel® Pro Wireless 3945 802.11a/b/g Mini-PCI Card EUR 1
UK/Irish - (QWERTY) - Internal Keyboard 1
Software Drivers Vostro 1500 1
English - Vista Business 1

Not prepared to buy a PC just for this and don't really want to go updating sound cards either.

- What your budget is. This is the most important bit. What you are willing to spend will define the results you achieve to a large extent. Digital recording is possible whether you buy a €10 mic from Maplin or a €10,000 Pro Tools HD setup. Of course if you are just starting out, a low budget is no problem either.

Hard to say, if I could get fully set up with a good enough mic, leads and software for under €200 that would be great. Not sure how much I'd use all the stuff if I got them so don't want to go too crazy. I'd prefer if any software I got was freeware or opensource too. I don't want anything too bulky either as my place is tiny so don't want anything massive taking up half the room.

Just something simple that I can record some instruments and vocals and stick them together. I wont be huge into editing or anything, just getting one track and listening in earphones and playing along while I record something else.

I have a decent set of earphones already, Shure E4's so don't need anything there


Any feedback appreciated

sei046

Busy at the min with a few bits but just to say brilliant opening post. Exactly how it should be done.

jtsuited

sei046 wrote: »

Busy at the min with a few bits but just to say brilliant opening post. Exactly how it should be done.

+1
if people were as clear, concise and organised as the OP, the world would be a better place.

jtsuited

cormie wrote: »

Hi,

I have a decent set of earphones already, Shure E4's so don't need anything there

ok earphones are a very bad idea. bad for your ears, and despite them being high quality earphones (i have a pair myself), will be fairly useless to you for mixing on.

you're budget isn't much (but certainly workable), but my advice would be to head over to thomann.de and see if there are any decent budget bundles with say a decent condenser mic and interface.

you recording for your own enjoyment, or you plannin on impressing people with your recordings, or both (all are noble motives imo)?

cornbb

+2, a great post and it should help you to get very helpful answers!

Your machine is definitely up to the job, and its my opinion that people can start recording music on pretty much any budget (e.g. check out this article: http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2004/11/build-24-track-digital-recording.html). You said you'd prefer not to update your soundcard but I would give serious consideration towards doing so. Consumer soundcards aren't up to the job of making recordings to a decent standard - they generally have a large latency (delay) built in, so making multitrack recordings (playing along to the last thing you recorded) becomes pretty much impossible.

I'm not too well up on budget mics, leads and audio interfaces but you could try browsing Thomann.de to get an idea of what you can get at what price (but do remember to shop around. Their t.bone mics are good enough to get started on.

As for cheapo software try checking out Reaper (haven't tried it myself but it comes highly recommended) and energyXT. I'll try to post more later if I have time...

sei046

cornbb wrote: »

I'm not too well up on budget mics, leads and audio interfaces

You posh git lol

cornbb

sei046 wrote: »

You posh git lol

Only cause my mic collection lies below the range of "budget", not above it

cormie

Thanks for the replies

So are the main things I need a decent soundcard and a mic? I guess because I'm recording from a classical guitar with no output, a piano, my vocals and the likes of a bodhran (the only drum I have at the mo :P), I'd need a pretty good mic to get the sound good?

Is it possible to get a good soundcard without having to rip my laptop apart (voiding warranty perhaps?), perhaps a USB soundcard?

At the mo I'm really just recording for my own enjoyment and will see how that goes. Will be letting other people hear and asking their opinion etc, predict I'll have a number 1 album by Dec 2010 and contender for Christmas number 1, so plenty of time to get serious :P joke.

So is all I need a good mic, soundcard and software? Or are there other important/advisable things too? I can't really play anything by the way, in the way that I can't write music or read it, but I can manage to make some nice sounds and pieces on piano and guitar by just picking it up, wouldn't be able to play the same piece back, unless my memory served me well, so it's just to get these recorded and work around them so I'm thinking the likes of a usb keyboard and stuff wouldn't get much use.

jtsuited

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies

So are the main things I need a decent soundcard and a mic? .

yeah pretty much.

soundcard is an outdated term from yesteryear, so from now on think of Audio Interface. Most are usb/firewire and of course you won't have to rip your laptop apart.


btw, I met you a long time ago at the poker.ie tourney in the fitz about 3 years ago (there was beer and we were up on the balcony). Nicky won it I think. I was Bobmoog over on poker.ie (briefly).

cornbb

Here's a quick sample shopping list:

€59 - Large diaphragm condenser mic. General purpose, although you won't be able to do stereo recordings with it. This is super cheap so you might want to consider going for a better model, or maybe buying a second mic or stereo pair of something: http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_tbone_sc400_grossmembranmikro.htm

€85 - USB audio interface. A decent budget brand, although this price is hugely knocked down as its a returned product. The features you'll be looking for (XLR input(s), phantom power) are all there: http://www.thomann.de/ie/emu_0202_usb_retour.htm

€4.99 - Mic cable: http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_sssnake_sk233-6_mikrokabel.htm

€9.90 - Mic stand: http://www.thomann.de/ie/millenium_ms2005_mic_stand.htm

Total from Thomann: €158.89. If you do buy from Thomann, might as well get stuff to the value of €200 as shipping is free over that price.

For your software, pick up a copy of Reaper: http://www.reaper.fm/
Free to evaluate and the license is only $50.

Disclaimer: I haven't read reviews of everything here or shopped around so make sure you research what you buy. These are only the bare essentials so consider upgrading everything if you can afford to, and strongly consider picking up a pair of monitors. And I'm NOT endorsing Thomann here, just a quick way of checking prices for cheap music gear

Having said all that, this gear like this, for under 200 quid, should get you off to a very decent start.

cormie

Yup, recognised your name jtsuited That was indeed a long time ago!

Cornb, thanks a mill for the links, really helpful as I haven't a clue what to go for myself.

I think I'll go for everything you linked to, but would you be able to link me to a stereo mic since I'm under budget and will get the free shipping if it's over €200

How big are these mics by the way? I'd love to be able to kill 2 birds with one stone and be able to take it to venues to record music on my mp3 player. Although it would probably be a different connection and everything than the 3.5 stereo mic jack on my mp3 player

cormie

If anyone could please suggest the next step up for a mic (Stereo etc) from the one cornbb suggested and to get the total above €200 for free shipping, I'll put in an order asap

cornbb

cormie wrote: »

I think I'll go for everything you linked to, but would you be able to link me to a stereo mic since I'm under budget and will get the free shipping if it's over €200

If you want to do stereo recordings (e.g. of an acoustic guitar) as well as mono recordings (e.g. of your voice) I reckon you should pick up a stereo pair of large diaphragm condensers, something like this: http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_tbone_sc450_stereoset.htm

I know that would put you well over budget though, so maybe you could consider getting a single mic, and upgrading it a little. The lack of ability to make stereo guitar recordings shouldn't be a problem when you're just starting off. Most of the mics around the €100 range here would do the job, I haven't tried any of them though, maybe there are some reviews out there somewhere. This one would do the job, for example: http://www.thomann.de/ie/audio_technica_at2020.htm

How big are these mics by the way? I'd love to be able to kill 2 birds with one stone and be able to take it to venues to record music on my mp3 player. Although it would probably be a different connection and everything than the 3.5 stereo mic jack on my mp3 player

They'd be a little bigger then your fist anyway. They won't plug into your MP3 player, they require phantom power, hence the need for the audio interface.

cormie

I don't really understand how an acoustic is stereo and a voice is mono? If an acoustic was just one string, would it also be mono, is it when there is more than one note at a time it becomes stereo?

Is the set you linked to the cheapest for stereo at €179? That's quite pricey compared to the mono one in your post above

Is this one (http://www.thomann.de/ie/audio_technica_at2020.htm) you linked to stereo or is it still mono, but just a bit better from the mono in your first post and by upgrading, did you mean, just getting a better one (the one you just linked to) or did you mean buy that and then get add-ons for it?:o

Thanks again for the help nearly there!

cornbb

cormie wrote: »

I don't really understand how an acoustic is stereo and a voice is mono? If an acoustic was just one string, would it also be mono, is it when there is more than one note at a time it becomes stereo?

Basically, any recording you make (lets say you do something that combines vocals, several guitars and a piano) can turn out to be stereo - this is achieved during the mixing process, and you can do it even if you own only one mic.

What I was referring to was making stereo recordings at source. Vocals are always mono recordings (using one mic) but people sometimes like to record instruments in stereo, using two mics, e.g. piano or acoustic guitar, as the results can be quite nice. But you will still be able to get a perfectly good instrument recordings with a single mic - don't worry now about the ins and outs of stereo vs. mono recordings.

Is the set you linked to the cheapest for stereo at €179? That's quite pricey compared to the mono one in your post above

Is this one (http://www.thomann.de/ie/audio_technica_at2020.htm) you linked to stereo or is it still mono, but just a bit better from the mono in your first post and by upgrading, did you mean, just getting a better one (the one you just linked to)

That's exactly what I meant. That's just mono (a single mic will record mono whereas a pair of mics will do stereo) but I suggested it as it as AudioTechnica is a better brand than t.bone and if you are just going to get one mic then you might as well get a slightly better one than the first one I recommended.

For the moment you might be better off forgetting about a pair of mics. A single mic will suffice for the moment, it will allow you to learn the basics and still achieve decent recordings.

Thanks again for the help nearly there!

No worries

PaulBrewer

cornbb wrote: »

Basically, any recording you make (lets say you do something that combines vocals, several guitars and a piano) can turn out to be stereo - this is achieved during the mixing process, and you can do it even if you own only one mic.

Dodgy ground Cornbb ..... don't have me start typing!
Let try and keep techy talk 100% accurate or we'll be as bad as Gear Slutz!

cornbb

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Dodgy ground Cornbb ..... don't have me start typing!
Let try and keep techy talk 100% accurate or we'll be as bad as Gear Slutz!

Ah I know, but we're only taking baby steps here :cool:

PaulBrewer

cornbb wrote: »

Ah I know, but we're only taking baby steps here :cool:

Lets not damage the child's feet ....

cornbb

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Lets not damage the child's feet ....

It was probably a mistake to start talking about mono vs. stereo stuff really, I find it way too easy to make a fool out of meself in this place sometimes

cormie

hehe, what if i want a guest appearance and somebody to sing with me? Would 2 mics be much better in this case? and if 2 of us were playing guitars at one point, or one playing guitar and the other piano or something like that?

Would a stereo set be much better in this case? Is there a stereo set I could get that isn't so expensive? If I could get a stereo set for about €100/120 that would be ok I suppose. Could stretch the budget to about €250 for everything I suppose I'd prefer to buy stereo now as opposed to having to sell my mono later and replace it with what I can just buy now.

As long as the quality is good. I'm not talking audiophile good, just nice to listen to and not wanting to block my ears :P although that might depend on the music too :P

cornbb

cormie wrote: »

hehe, what if i want a guest appearance and somebody to sing with me? Would 2 mics be much better in this case? and if 2 of us were playing guitars at one point, or one playing guitar and the other piano or something like that?

Nah, you'd be better off multitracking in that case anyway (recording one voice at a time) so one mic would do the job.

Would a stereo set be much better in this case? Is there a stereo set I could get that isn't so expensive? If I could get a stereo set for about €100/120 that would be ok I suppose. Could stretch the budget to about €250 for everything I suppose I'd prefer to buy stereo now as opposed to having to sell my mono later and replace it with what I can just buy now.

tbh I wouldn't get too worried about stereo pairs right now, I reckon the one mic should suit your needs for the moment. Once you've learned the basics then you could think about adding to your mic collection later.

cormie

I know what you mean, but I think the way I'd be recording is by just freestyling because I can't write music, I just play what I feel sounds good, it's totally random and I couldn't repeat a full track that I've just played so if I was playing with a friend or whatever, it wouldn't be anything clinical, we'd just play and I'd like to get a good quality recording of it. This makes me think getting 2 mics or a stereo set would be best as I can't see myself on the software front that much except for just putting extra bits into the original. In the case of the stereo set you linked to versus the very first one for €59, could I get the same effect from getting 2 €59 ones now as I would with the stereo set for €179? Can you recommend any stereo set in the €120 region? :P

cornbb

I can't make any particular recommendations to be honest, as I don't have experience with any models in that price range, pretty much any of the mics that I linked to would do the trick. It might be an idea to google some of the makes/models to see if you can find reviews.

Simultaneously recording yourself and someone else using 2 mics doesn't require a matched pair (and doing it this way isn't ideal, but thats an issue for a whole other thread) so you could mix and match any 2 LDC mics really.

cormie

When you say a "matched pair" I guess you're referring to the stereo set you linked to? What difference would that have over buying 2 of the ones at €59 would you know?

cornbb

cormie wrote: »

When you say a "matched pair" I guess you're referring to the stereo set you linked to? What difference would that have over buying 2 of the ones at €59 would you know?

Individual mics, even the same models, have slightly varying frequency/polar response characteristics. Matched pairs are pairs of mics that are selected and matched because their response characteristics resemble each other as closely as possible (although I'd say at that price range not a whole lot of effort would go into that process).

This is what a setup for making a stereo recording of a single guitar using a matched pair might look like. From what you describe, you'll be using one mic on one instrument/vocalist, and another mic on another. For what you'll be doing, you won't require this sort of precision matching, and you can get away with using any 2 individual mics.

Hope that makes sense, don't worry about getting too caught up in these details when you're just getting started.

cormie

Thanks again for the help

So do you reckon I'm best off just getting 2 of the €59 ones and then everything else you mentioned on the list to for now?

cornbb

I think that would be fine. Again, I'll stress that I haven't a clue how good/bad those particular mics are, I'm sure they'll get the job done though. Let us know what you end up getting.

cormie

Ok cool, I'll probably just go with that so may as well hold off ordering until Monday as it wouldn't get here much later than if I ordered now before the weekend just incase there's any other feedback from anyone. I'll report back once I've ordered. Thanks again for the help!

cormie

1 last bump before I put the order in tomorrow morning for any last minute advice

cormie

cornbb wrote: »

€85 - USB audio interface. A decent budget brand, although this price is hugely knocked down as its a returned product. The features you'll be looking for (XLR input(s), phantom power) are all there: http://www.thomann.de/ie/emu_0202_usb_retour.htm

Oh no! Just went to put my order together and this is no longer in their inventory Could you recommend a similar one please? Also, you mentioned I should consider getting a monitor, what does a monitor do?

cormie

Any other recommendations for the above sold out item?

cormie

Still no word back from Thomann about an alternative to this: http://www.thomann.de/ie/emu_0202_usb_retour.htm

If anyone could suggest something similar I'd really appreciate it

fitz

http://www.thomann.de/ie/maudio_mobile_pre_usb.htm

Basic, but your price range is pretty limiting.

cormie

Thanks for the link So I guess that's actually better than the original one linked to since it's €33 more? Would have liked to have kept it around the price of the original one of €85 but I suppose I don't have much choice?

fitz

No, I think the original gave higher sample rates, but the only reason you were getting it for €85 was because it was b-stock.
Actually: http://www.thomann.de/ie/emu_0202_usb.htm
Here...they have new ones in stock. €99.

If you're using 2 mics though, the Emu isn't gonna cut it. It's one mic input, one line input. The Mobile Pre will give you two mic inputs. Should be fine for what you're doing.

cormie

Great, thanks a mill

What do you mean by B stock and why is the B stock one called "retour" I wonder? What's the difference between them?

cornbb

Just spotted this thread again cormie, glad you're getting sorted out.

AFAIK b-stock on Thomann is stuff that is reduced for various reasons such as the end of a product line, ex-demo items, returned (retour) items and so on. It should all still be backed up with a full warranty.

fitz

As cornbb said, it was most likely a returned item, hence them selling it for a reduced price. But as I said above, that interface is not going to be any use to you if you're getting two mics.

cormie

Oh good job you noticed that about the mics:eek:

So is the emu better than the mobile pre, even though it only has one mic input?

Does this: http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_tbone_sc450_stereoset.htm need one or two mic inputs?

Decisions decisions :pac:

Thanks for the help everyone!

cornbb

fitz wrote: »

As cornbb said, it was most likely a returned item, hence them selling it for a reduced price. But as I said above, that interface is not going to be any use to you if you're getting two mics.

Feck, I didn't even spot that...

fitz

Cormie, they're just two mics that are matched because they'll produce near identical recordings. As mentioned before, mics have slight variance in the frequencies they'll capture. Now, at this stage you're extremely unlikely to hear any difference between recordings made with two unmatched mics and two matched ones. Both mics will need to be plugged into a mic preamp input on an audio interface, so your interface needs a minimum of 2 mic inputs if you want to record using both mics.

http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_tbone_sc400_grossmembranmikro.htm

Two of those and a USB audio interface with two mic inputs should do you just fine for now.

cormie

cool, that's what I'll get so, bit more expensive than what I first intended but ah well, music is never a waste

cormie

Just got delivery of everything a while ago Thanks again for all the help! My small place is even smaller with 2 mics haha.

Just on the software, with the USB thingy, included is a copy of "Live Lite 4" and "pro tools m-powered 7", do these do the same thing, and do I need to install both, and should I still get REAPER too? Or should I just get reaper and forget about the two included ones altogether? I prefer to keep my computer with as little excess crap as possible so the less I have to install the better

i57dwun4yb1pt8

just use reaper - its great

fitz

Try out Reaper and Protools.
Protools m-powered might not have all the features of full protools, but it's an industry standard and knowledge of it will serve you well.
Reaper seems to get great reviews.
Wouldn't bother with Live Lite 4...it will only allow you a limited number of tracks in your project.

cormie

Great, thanks a lot

Does Pro Tools M powered do everything reaper does or would reaper be much better but just not as "known" as pro tools?

dav nagle

Surely Pro tools is better than Reaper??????????????

cormie

Had a quick google anyway and it seems that Reaper is pretty much as good as Pro Tools but at a fraction of the price. So if that's the why, then I think Reaper will be the choice for me