CER bureaucracy holding up 7.2 GW capacity green electricity projects

probe

According to the Irish Times, the Commission for Energy Regulation has applications to construct 7,200 MW of renewable electricity plant. These overpaid bureaucrats on inflation-proofed fat pensions :-) have indicated that they only plan to allow 3,000 MW of this capacity to be built!

Every 1,000 MW of capacity could generate exports of about €500 million per annum for the economy, at full utilisation, based on export of output at wholesale rates. And it could be used to run electric cars, provide electric rail services, operate data centres, run pharmaceutical plants, etc. etc. and reduce the demand for imported oil and the related pollution that would be generated from needlessly burning hydrocarbons.

All they seem to care about is some stupid EU target to limit greenhouse gas emissions! Peabrain bureaucrats running the place in a seriously incompetent manner....

The country urgently needs several GW of international grid connectivity to the rest of Europe to facilitate large scale trade in green electric power. These “pipes” would be self-financing from the “tolls” charged to move electricity in either direction. They take time to plan, order, and build.

WHY ARE WE WAITING???

.probe

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2008/0912/1221138437043.html

SeanW

The problem is that at the present time, 7.2GW of wind plant would require 7.2GW of baseline backup running on standby 24/7.

probe

SeanW wrote: »

The problem is that at the present time, 7.2GW of wind plant would require 7.2GW of baseline backup running on standby 24/7.

No it would not. The country couldn't use 7.2 GW/h of electricity - the historic peak demand is 4.9 GW/h. It would have to become an exporter of electricity, and that would provide the backup.

Not exploiting this resource is akin to a Middle Eastern country deciding not to drill for new oil, because it has enough oil from other sources to meet domestic demand already :-)

.probe

derry

SeanW wrote:

The problem is that at the present time, 7.2GW of wind plant would require 7.2GW of baseline backup running on standby 24/7

I dont know where CER is getting off with this rejection of excesss capasity

If pivate enteprise wish to build more wind farms so that we in Ireland have excess wind power to the countries requiremnts there is no logical reason I can think to stopping them proceeding with those projects

However once you know that ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia have devised a strategy to suppress and debunk green power renewables
This is so that the ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia spear head with the brown envelope takers can have a ramped up project to get a nuke power stations and gas powered stations from natural gas fields they haven't told us about yet that come from off shore
Once we know the plot we can see why CER would fight tooth and nail to block renewables like wind power

No big brown envelopes from wind power like what oil companies and Nuclear power stations can supply is the agenda

SeanW wrote:

The problem is that at the present time, 7.2GW of wind plant would require 7.2GW of baseline backup running on standby 24/7

There is no absolute requirement to have baselines track the total output from wind power with baseline backups

Tight baseline backups are a policy which is done when wind power supply's 10% of your needs from a few geograpical locations and as more wind power from multi locations come on stream it reduces needs for baseline backups

Combined with large inter grid to mainland europe and weather projections in advance need for the baseline requirements do not have to increase as the output increases

This baseline requirement tracking myths is typicalESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia strategy to suppress wind power and other renewables that dont fit their prefered plans that will lock Ireland into enslavement to rich oil companies and rich Nuclear power companies

Wind power in Ireland is a no brainer as Ireland is the second most windy country in the world but a ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia will try hard as hell to make it seem not possible to suit the brown mana from on high

Derry

GenericUser

derry wrote: »

I dont know where CER is getting off with this rejection of excesss capasity

If pivate enteprise wish to build more wind farms so that we in Ireland have excess wind power to the countries requiremnts there is no logical reason I can think to stopping them proceeding with those projects

However once you know that ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia have devised a strategy to suppress and debunk green power renewables
This is so that the ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia spear head with the brown envelope takers can have a ramped up project to get a nuke power stations and gas powered stations from natural gas fields they haven't told us about yet that come from off shore
Once we know the plot we can see why CER would fight tooth and nail to block renewables like wind power

No big brown envelopes from wind power like what oil companies and Nuclear power stations can supply is the agenda




There is no absolute requirement to have baselines track the total output from wind power with baseline backups

Tight baseline backups are a policy which is done when wind power supply's 10% of your needs from a few geograpical locations and as more wind power from multi locations come on stream it reduces needs for baseline backups

Combined with large inter grid to mainland europe and weather projections in advance need for the baseline requirements do not have to increase as the output increases

This baseline requirement tracking myths is typicalESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia strategy to suppress wind power and other renewables that dont fit their prefered plans that will lock Ireland into enslavement to rich oil companies and rich Nuclear power companies

Wind power in Ireland is a no brainer as Ireland is the second most windy country in the world but a ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia will try hard as hell to make it seem not possible to suit the brown mana from on high

Derry

The applications process for wind farms wishing to connect to the irish electricity system is, like most queues, a first come first served process.
Several major wind generation companies failed to get their applications in on time, and hence were denied the opportunity of making an application.

Furthermore Each application process is limited to a set amount of MW's.
This has more to do with engineering reasons than the conspiracy theories outlined above. The prime engineering reason being that the current transmission system needs to be substantially reinforced before further wind connections can be made. The relevant bodies are working extremely hard to ensure this happens despite being hindered by lack of public support and understanding.

I am sure the quoted post is nothing but trolling but it is helpful to have the relevant facts out in the open.

Macha

It doesn't help that Eirgrid is still effectively part of ESB. I mean they all eat lunch in the same canteen. Plus has the network officially been separated or are ESB employees still threatening us with strikes?

pauln

Lads lets take a few steps back from the conspiracy theory's that always seem to frequent this particular board and try to talk about the world as it really is.

People are talking about the E.S.B. as if it's some kind of evil overlord out to get you every chance it gets. The E.S.B. is 95% owned by the Irish government and in turn controlled by everyone in the country. It operates under the direction of the elected Irish government so if you have problems with the E.S.B. you really have a problem with the Irish government and the people who elected them.

You cannot just dump a massive amount of unstable/uncontrollable renewable resource such as wind onto the Irish transmission network and still have your lights at home working and your computers running.

Yes you can somewhat forecast wind out to about 3 days at best but it is still prone to rapid changes. If a massive amount of wind drops off the network without other sources to pick up the slack the entire power system collapses as the power is stretched to thinly across the network.
Similarly you can't just generate as much as you want and export it. The "excess" still has to be transmitted on the one network which has a maximum limit it can carry. You can't put more power on the grid then required by the country/export markets as this cases inefficiency in the transmission network due to the overload of power. Beside's at the moment we don't have enough inter-connector capacity for serious exportation of power. They are looking at building another one from Wales though.

People want more renewable but the same people are complaining about new transmission lines being put up, power plants being constructed, wind farms being built and smart meters being supplied. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Eirgrid was part of E.S.B. and still mainly staffed by ex-E.S.B. and in the same building. It is moving to new location soon. The current operating procedure is that renewable energy sources are given access to sell to the market before the fossil plants, so I can't see how Eirgrid is anti-renewable.

Macha

Hang on, ESB aren't completely blameless - they threatened to strike when the government announced plans to move the operation of the grid to Eirgrid.

But yes, obviously the main problem is the government.

pauln

taconnol wrote: »

Hang on, ESB aren't completely blameless - they threatened to strike when the government announced plans to move the operation of the grid to Eirgrid.

But yes, obviously the main problem is the government.

I'd sort of agree with you but look at it differently and go down another level and say it is more a problem with the unions. E.S.B. the company didn't have a problem with the split, the unions were worried about loosing some control of a key national asset which they use as leverage come negotiation times. Also with the workers owning 5% they were worried about the devaluation of the company and hence their share of it.

With the E.S.B. employing some 7800 people of which approx. 2000 (ESB group of unions figure) are union members you can't really say that E.S.B. opposed the split.

Reference: http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2007/1120/ireland/mhmhqlcwqlkf/

Macha

Ah cool, didn't know that. Thanks for the link. They were never going to win because the move was prompted by EU law on the area of state monopolies. I'm quite a leftie but the unions still manage to p1ss me off sometimes.

GenericUser

taconnol wrote: »

It doesn't help that Eirgrid is still effectively part of ESB. I mean they all eat lunch in the same canteen. Plus has the network officially been separated or are ESB employees still threatening us with strikes?

Incorrect. EirGrid is now apart from a handful of support staff, completely located in a different building, and is a 100% independant and seperate entity from the ESB.
The separation of assets is a thorny issue, which is also off topic.

Edit: Just saw above messages now.

lostexpectation

pauln wrote: »

the unions were worried about loosing some control of a key national asset

fixed

zod

SeanW wrote: »

The problem is that at the present time, 7.2GW of wind plant would require 7.2GW of baseline backup running on standby 24/7.

Huh? Sorne Hill has shown that large flow VRB batteries can be used to deal with the fluctuations..

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2006/08/30/vrb-power-sells-12mwh-storage-system-to-sorne-hill/

This study demonstrates the economic viability of our systems for wind
farms such as Sorne Hill," stated Tim Hennessy, CEO of VRB Power Systems.
"This is largely due to our ability to enable wind powered generation to
match many of the characteristics of conventional 'base load and peaking
plant', thereby allowing wind power to be dispatched in a similar way to
conventional generation. The report also highlights the need for storage
in Ireland to enable the successful roll-out of wind generation from the
current installed base of approx. 800MW up to and beyond the 3,000MW
currently contracted or proposed, and to deal with the intermittency and
constraint issues already being experienced. It is estimated that at least
700MW of storage may be required across Ireland. This sale will provide us
with a "blue-print" to execute on similar opportunities in Ireland and
worldwide," concluded Hennessy.

derry

thius link might help explain the storage system usuing vanaduim
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/oct/29-the-element-that-could-change-the-world/?searchterm=VRB

The electrolite is charged up and then pumped into a anonther tank .new electrolite is pumped in and charged up and the proces is repeated until the tank is full.Then the process is reversed to get back the power from electrolite

Its not cheap

In this time with the costs of VRB ,Its looks really cheaper for Ireland to spread more turbines over larger regions with eneogh sensors to predict wind force drop off and have faster reacting thermal power generation such as turbine jets to kick in as reserveand have only a very minimal amount of VRB solutions
The themal power sources could even be using bio energy such as bio diesel to be the fuelso again keeping the money in ROI and possibly be a tad greener

Derry


Derry

BendiBus

SEI had Grant Thornton do a CBA on VRB and Sorne Hill project offered a IRR of over 11%. However I think it was based on a lot of assumptions. I'll dig up the link.

Edit: Apologies for all the TLAs

Page 90 of this report on the project

http://www.sei.ie/getFile.asp?FC_ID=2901&docID=59

However this is based on using VRB for smoothing rather than for significant storage.

Macha

New development (well, new to me & maybe others..)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1008/breaking67.htm

EirGrid has unveiled a plan to the double capacity of the State’s electricity transmission network by 2025 as part of a €4 billion investment.

It plans to pay for the scheme by introducing a “transmission tariff” on domestic and commercial customers of 0.2 per cent until 2025. For a household with a €100 electricity bill, this would equate to an increase of 20 cents.

Eirgrid, the agency which manages the ESB-owned national grid, plans to redevelop the transmission network so it can handle both power generated from conventional and renewable sources.

The move is a response to an expected 60 per cent growth in demand over the next decade, and that to meet this demand the network had to develop so it can accept wind power and other renewables.

The plan will require the replacement or upgrading of over 2,300kms of power lines and the building of a further 1,150kms. These will be laid overland.

Dermot Byrne EirGrid chief executive said: “Our role is to ensure that electricity infrastructure does not become a barrier to the social and economic development of any region or county. Grid25 is our strategic response to this challenge.”

He said once “when fully connected to the UK and European grid, Ireland can also secure its supply and become a net exporter of electricity from renewable sources”.

A spokeswoman for Eirgrid said the next step was to begin consultation on the project.

GenericUser

zod wrote: »

Huh? Sorne Hill has shown that large flow VRB batteries can be used to deal with the fluctuations..

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2006/08/30/vrb-power-sells-12mwh-storage-system-to-sorne-hill/

.

Batteries for storage of Bulk Electrical Power are still extremely expensive.

from link above:
"VRB Power Systems is selling a 1.5 MW x 8 hour (12 MWH) VRB energy storage system to Tapbury Management, which oversees Sorne Hill Windfarm. The total contract value for VRB Power is approximately $6.3 million. "

The above can store 1.5 MW's for 8 hours. Thats the output of 2/3 wind turbines for 8 hours. At a cost of €4.7million approx. So lets say an average sized wind farm of 25 MW's would cost €75 million just for the batteries. Then the sheer size of the batteries is another problem. We are talking the size of a shed or house here for each one...Imagine that beside your wind turbine atop a mountain
Battery technologies are advancing apace but I would be very suprised to see batteries used for large scale electrical storage at any point in the near future.
There are far more viable options for energy storage, such as converting it to a different form of energy, Like the potential energy stored in the water head of a pumped storage system, or the energy stored in a flywheel...
But what will happen in future in Ireland at least, is that wind generation will be backed up with flexible open and closed cycle gas generators, and hopefully within my own lifetime other more predictable and reliable renewables like tidal and wave power.

Oldtree

This SEI study may be of interest:

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?docID=-1&locID=326

From what I have learned the pumped hydro idea, inside mountains, is fast becoming the bright light for wind energy companies.

The ESB have a history of this type of power storage:

http://www.esb.ie/main/about_esb/history_turlough.jsp

The following may be why there is a hesitancy with the proposed energy project:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...560349538.html