Suspected child neglect

anucksunamun

Hello all,
Myself and a neighbour both suspect a child opposite us is being neglected by her mother, though we have rang the schiggles, and they have come out once, and the child seems to have been taken away once for a few days, she is still constantly crying. most of the time it is just whinge type crying, but sometimes she is absolutely hysterical, when this happens the mother (who lives on the 3 rd floor) closes all windows etc.. but we can still hear her crying her heart out inside our apartments on the opposite side of the complex(just trying to give you an idea how loudly she is crying). Now I have been around kids my whole life, I know normal crying.. she is hysterical.. I worry she is either being hurt, or is sick in some way... what else can I do? i have rang the cops three times, my neighbour has rang them five times(always when the child has been hysterical for longer than half an hour.. no stopping) this is breaking my heart.. please help me to help her..

Nevyn

Who or what are "the schiggles" ?

Dudess

Well I don't know a huge amount about what you can do, except keep alerting the relevant authorities, and also keep a log of all incidents - from the seemingly trivial ones to the very serious ones.

The thing is, there is no guarantee she is being abused/neglected - maybe she is just a very screamy child and her mum closes windows so the neighbours won't be disturbed by her (and also so that people won't hear it and suspect her of abusing her daughter) but you're dead right to be concerned. Do you ever see the child? If so, does she show signs of neglect/abuse? What does the mother seem like? Would you feel confident calling to her and asking her if her daughter's ok?

I really hope your fears are unfounded...

mags16

The child may have some sort of disability that causes her to cry. But you are right to be concerned.

Miss Fluff

I've a friend who has two kids, the oldest is a little girl of three and I can honestly say for the first year of her life she didn't stop crying. Like ever. And this was not normal crying, it was constant. It was so bad they couldn't even leave the child with relatives for babysitting because she NEVER STOPPED. They had it investigated and turns out the kid was just a very very vocal baby. She's 3 now and the most loved and well-adjusted little tot you could meet so just bear that in mind too. Are there any signs of OBVIOUS neglect?

anucksunamun

sorry, the police are the shiggles.

I do see her around, yes, and she is always clean, and tidy, while her father is there she is a smiley friendly looking child.. then when shes with her mother she always looks slightly sad and dejected.. I see them together all the time, but I have never seen her mother speaking to her. I'm not saying I think her mother is on drugs, but she has this permanently 'spaced out' look, she just stares past people, doesn't make eye contact, I've asked her why her child is crying, she said 'i dunno', i asked is she sick, she said 'i dunno' what can ya say to that?! i said 'excuse me?!' then she said 'no, shes fine' thanks for your reply dudess, i didn't know if i was over reacting to what i've seen.

Dudess

Yeah, I know a girl whose first baby cried solidly for 18 months and caused his mother to have a breakdown. So do bear this in mind OP. Although you did mention you think the little girl may have been in care for a few days - how sure are you of this though? Maybe she was just with her dad?

The stuff about the mum seems strange all right - might be post natal depression...

Do you think you could talk to the dad about your concerns?

anucksunamun

I should have said, this girl is roughly six years old, thats why I cant understand the crying... i know lots of kids cry quite a bit. (have 5 younger siblings lol.. know all about the whiney crying.. and thats doesnt bother me so much..)

Miss Fluff

anucksunamun wrote: »

I'm not saying I think her mother is on drugs, but she has this permanently 'spaced out' look, she just stares past people,

Tbh if I had a child who was constantly crying like that, sleep deprivation would make me look pretty spaced out too.

Just being devil's advocate here OP, you've to be really as sure as you can be before getting the authorities involved.

Nevyn

Well you rang the wrong people if you are concened that a child is being abused or neglected you ring your local health clinc and make a report to the social workers there
under the child protection act.

There could be a range of reasons why she is crying.

Dudess

mags16 wrote: »

The child may have some sort of disability that causes her to cry. But you are right to be concerned.

Good point. Especially now you've said she's about six. I presumed you were talking about a baby initially - screaming like that at six seems strange...

My friend's five-year-old son who has asperger's syndrome can have screaming episodes like that. Maybe she's undiagnosed...

anucksunamun

well, my neighbour saw the kid being taken off in a car with a well dressed suited and booted woman, and it was right after the cops had come out that time, and we didnt see her for almost a week, her father was here in that time. thats why i suspect she was taken into care.

I agree missfluff she may well be completely sleep deprived, she may even be depressed, i just hate to see her child so upset..

taz30

let me put out another theory....father spoils little girl when hes home,has wife beaten down(emotionally,mentally etc)little girl screams til she gets what she wants.mother tries putting up rules....kid makes her pay!seen that happen quite often.if the girl is in school the teachers would have spotted any signs of abuse anyway.(or so i hope)!weve all seen tantrums in the supermarket ,they can happen elsewhere.weve all seen spoilt kids scream when they dont get what they want!just a theory...

glynngo

contacting social workers sounds sensible. dont know what they are like where you are but here they are lovely people who do all they can to help parents as well as the kids.
These days they dont steam in and take kids off parents without really good reason.
Maybe the mum needs some help too.
Tough call.

cutymonalisa

Contact your local Health Centre and ask to speak to the Duty Social Worker. All referrals made to the HSE must be followed up - they will call to speak to the mother to assess if it is a abuse/neglect situation or if the family need support services. Either way, checks are made among the childs 'network professionals' i.e the social worker will make enquiries about the child with the school she attends, the GP, Public Health Nurse etc... Usually they are in a position to assess fairly quickly if there is something sinister going on. Nowadays if the Gardai are called to a home and come across as child they suspect may be at risk of abuse and/or neglect they must report this to the social work department. Therefore the social workers may already be involved. However, if you are worried about a child make the call. You can also remain anonymous - either way the referral must be followed up by the HSE

miss_shadow

wow, just reading this post made me a little concerned about you.
my son is 2 and he screams, he screams when he doesnt get his own way,when he doesnt want a shower,when he wants to watch the simpsons instead of rory the racing car,when he had lactose intolerance as a baby and none of the 5 doctors i had seen diagnosed it. when he wants me to lift him up. he has a high pitched scream and screams LOUD.
now,if my neighbour did this, i would be EXTREMELY upset. your putting your nose where it isn't wanted, are you good friends with her? have you ever been in her house, have you ever seen her hit her child? i shut my windows when my son screams because of people like you thinking 'oh no,her son is screaming,she must be abusing her child'.
and you said you did call the child services? jesus christ. just jesus christ is all i can say

Silverfish

miss_shadow wrote: »

wow, just reading this post made me a little concerned about you.
my son is 2 and he screams, he screams when he doesnt get his own way,when he doesnt want a shower,when he wants to watch the simpsons instead of rory the racing car,when he had lactose intolerance as a baby and none of the 5 doctors i had seen diagnosed it. when he wants me to lift him up. he has a high pitched scream and screams LOUD.
now,if my neighbour did this, i would be EXTREMELY upset. your putting your nose where it isn't wanted, are you good friends with her? have you ever been in her house, have you ever seen her hit her child? i shut my windows when my son screams because of people like you thinking 'oh no,her son is screaming,she must be abusing her child'.
and you said you did call the child services? jesus christ. just jesus christ is all i can say

Fair enough.

But would you want an abused child to be ignored, because the OP was told 'some kids just scream'? Better a good mother be upset for a while but understanding the reasoning behind it, than a child be abused and ignored.

Better safe than sorry, in my opinion.

miss_shadow

oops didnt see the 'she is 6yrs old' in there. but still, i know plenty of mothers who go through this with 0-3 year olds and then it stops as they start to understand that things don't come on tap, but 6yrs old is a bit strange.I hope my son doesnt scream to that age i'd have my hair torn out :D:D
I just find it a bit intrusive asking this woman 'why is she screaming' 'is she sick' and then the op gets narky because the mother says 'i dono'.
Maybe the mother was a bit struck to be asked questions. If a neighbour (that i never talk to) came to me and started asking questions about how I care for my son or whichever she was doing I'd be startled and be thinking 'why should i tell you my business'!!

Saying that, i'm all for protecting children who are not being cared for properly.
I'd go to the end of the universe for my boy and am greatly upset by parents who dress their children in dodgy clothes and ill fitting shoes to not educating them.
Around the corner from me,in the estate area, there are boys the same age as my son just walking around playing near the road. not being taught by the parents, just offloading them onto the street and hope the neighbour's will keep an ear/eye out. and they are only turned 3 yrs old!!!:eek:

Rev Hellfire

Silverfish wrote: »

But would you want an abused child to be ignored, because the OP was told 'some kids just scream'? Better a good mother be upset for a while but understanding the reasoning behind it, than a child be abused and ignored.

Better safe than sorry, in my opinion.

I'm not so sure it would be all dusted under the carpet, you accuse someone of child abuse I'm pretty sure if they suspect its you its not something which will be forgotten or forgiven. Would you in their place ?

Added to which you have no proof what so ever that their is abuse and your interference may indeed create a situation for that family where none exists.

Silverfish

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'm not so sure it would be all dusted under the carpet, you accuse someone of child abuse I'm pretty sure if they suspect its you its not something which will be forgotten or forgiven. Would you in their place ?

Added to which you have no proof what so ever that their is abuse and your interference may indeed create a situation for that family where none exists.

I'm pretty sure child abuse is not something that's forgotten too easily either, and I wonder how many neighbours of children who have died/been seriously injured as a result of it wished they hadn't ignored the noise?
All from people 'dusting it under the carpet'. That's how child abuse happens. People ignore it, don't want to get involved, not our problem etc etc....

I'm saying its better that the child is safe, than the parents be offended.

If my child screamed as much as the one in the OP, I would understand their concern to be honest.

Rev Hellfire

Silverfish wrote: »

I'm saying its better that the child is safe, than the parents be offended.

If my child screamed as much as the one in the OP, I would understand their concern to be honest.

Perhaps you would be less forgiving if the relevant agencies stepped in and took your children away for safety. Not to mention the common held believe of 'no smoke without fire' coming into effect.
Families I'm sure have been destroyed under false accusations such as this.

Your belief that sure there's no harm done if its not the case simply isn't true.

I'm saying that where there is positive proof that you should intervene, but until then you need to tread carefully, and not do things to simply easy your own conscience.

Dudess

miss_shadow wrote: »

jesus christ. just jesus christ is all i can say

You make it seem like the OP is sticking her nose in on a whim, when it seems more like she's piecing some strange stuff together. Of course there may be no abuse going on at all, but isn't it far better to risk making a mistake than to risk the child's life/wellbeing?

Don't take it personally as a mother, it's not meant that way. Think about it from the OP's perspective. If I heard that going on, while I wouldn't be assuming there's definitely abuse going on, I'd be terribly worried and unable to just stand by. Also, imagine if something terrible did eventually happen due to nobody intervening?

Of course these are all ifs and maybes but they're kinda reasonable when it's a child's welfare we're talking about...

Silverfish

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'm saying that where there is positive proof that you should intervene, but until then you need to tread carefully, and not do things to simply easy your own conscience.

Can you define 'positive proof' for the sake of the OP please.

Rev Hellfire

Silverfish wrote: »

Can you define 'positive proof' for the sake of the OP please.

Well perhaps actually seeing what causes the crying, perhaps actual evidence of abuse. Its all supposition from what I can tell, as has been stated before there may be a valid medical reason for the child crying.
Have they approached the child? What has it said?

I just happen to think you need a bit more than 'sure it was crying all the time your honour, an open and shut case this one'.

Silverfish

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Well perhaps actually seeing what causes the crying, perhaps actual evidence of abuse. Its all supposition from what I can tell, as has been stated before there may be a valid medical reason for the child crying.
Have they approached the child? What has it said?

I just happen to think you need a bit more than 'sure it was crying all the time your honour, an open and shut case this one'.

If there's a valid medical reason, they will be unlikely to take the child from the parents.

Rev Hellfire

Silverfish wrote: »

If there's a valid medical reason, they will be unlikely to take the child from the parents.

The reverse is true in that if there is abuse and abuse that is likely to continue they would return it.
Added to which it hasn't been stated that the child wasactually taken, perhaps the mother had relatives take it for a few days, perhaps the if the child is disabled she got respite for a few days.

There simply isn't the necessary amount of information to accurately state what is happening.

anucksunamun

Rev hellfire, may i ask what makes you such an expert on such matters? as I had previously stated i have approached the mother. I have been around kids all my life.. I do not have 'proof positive' but as silverfish said... what exactly would that be? also, I would have assumed when I approached her before, or when any of the neighbours have, she would have told us this 'medical' reason, were there one. you seem to believe I am being nosy here, but I in no way want anything to do with it... I am concerned about this child, she may be being neglected

clara98

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/children_first.html

maybe have a read of the children first guidelines, they go through the procedures for making a report on suspected child abuse.

Rev Hellfire

anucksunamun wrote: »

Rev hellfire, may i ask what makes you such an expert on such matters? as I had previously stated i have approached the mother. I have been around kids all my life.. I do not have 'proof positive' but as silverfish said... what exactly would that be? also, I would have assumed when I approached her before, or when any of the neighbours have, she would have told us this 'medical' reason, were there one. you seem to believe I am being nosy here, but I in no way want anything to do with it... I am concerned about this child, she may be being neglected

I've never said I'm an expert, I'm certainly no more one than you.
But that said I do have experience of dealing with children with intellectual disabilities and have observed in some cases such children crying for prolonged periods.

But to turn the question back to you, what other 'proof' do you have. Have you approached the child? Have you observed abusive behaviour?

If you ask for advise on a public forum you can't assume it will all be aligned with your own view.

Perhaps you have left out details which clinch the argument, now would be the time to share them.

clara98

]The following examples would constitute reasonable grounds for concern:

i) specific indication from the child that (s)he was abused;
(ii) an account by a person who saw the child being abused;
(iii) evidence, such as an injury or behaviour which is consistent with abuse and unlikely to be caused another way;
(iv) an injury or behaviour which is consistent both with abuse and with an innocent explanation but where there are corroborative indicators supporting the concern that it may be a case of abuse. An example of this would be a pattern of injuries, an implausible explanation, other indications of abuse, dysfunctional behaviour;
(v) consistent indication, over a period of time,that a child is suffering from emotional or physical neglect.


A suspicion which is not supported by any objective indication of abuse or neglect would not constitute a reasonable suspicion or reasonable grounds for concern.

anucksunamun

After months of listening to her cries I can honestly say that she is suffering. Now sure, I can just ignore that, like people do every single day, but I'd rather be proven wrong, than proven right!

Rev Hellfire

Well I think clara98 has clinched the argument, if you feel you comply with the requirements they listed then you should intervene.
There's really nothing else to say so I'll bow out.

Nevyn

Making a report under the child protection act creates a file on the family in the system.
If after the investigation the report is found to be unfounded the file remains active for 2 years and after that time is closed but it still exists in the system.

Read the guidelines and make your decision.

the GALL

hey op
there were kids across the road from me playing 'mammies and daddies' and one of the parents found out all of a sudden there were allagations of child abuse, peado's living across the road long story boreing someone phoned the welfare, investagation started all hell broke loose the couple that were accused have split up, moved house etc etc all because someone stuck their nose in where it was not needed.... there's more qualified people out there to stop/spot child neglict than a noisey neighbour

rs

the GALL wrote: »

hey op
there were kids across the road from me playing 'mammies and daddies' and one of the parents found out all of a sudden there were allagations of child abuse, peado's living across the road long story boreing someone phoned the welfare, investagation started all hell broke loose the couple that were accused have split up, moved house etc etc all because someone stuck their nose in where it was not needed.... there's more qualified people out there to stop/spot child neglict than a noisey neighbour

I don't understand this mentality at all! In fact, I find it terrifying. If you have any considerable reason to suspect a child is being abused or neglected, then I think you have a moral duty to report it. You might be right, you might be wrong. As you say, there are professionals that can determine this. But these professionals don't have video cameras on every child in the country. How are they supposed to know what cases to investigate? It's not like the people abusing the children are going to report themselves, is it?

In many cases, there is a perfectly legitimate reason for the behavior and it's up to social services to figure this out. In this case, given the age of the child and the behavior it certainly sounds pretty unusual and should be looked into. Maybe the child is just a brat who throws a strop to get what she wants? Even if this is the case, the mum should be taught some techniques to deal with this. (Super Nanny anyone)

I certainly don't support spreading vicious rumors around the neighborhood without any solid proof. That's totally wrong.

But if there is reason to suspect a child is being abused in any way I think it should be investigated. Yes, some perfectly innocent parents may have a visit from Social services and that's not going to be a lot of fun for them. I think that's a small price to pay to prevent children from being abused. no?

the glass woman

the GALL wrote: »

hey op
there were kids across the road from me playing 'mammies and daddies' and one of the parents found out all of a sudden there were allagations of child abuse, peado's living across the road

I don't understand what you are saying here? In anycase, if I've got the gist of your post right, there seems to be more to the situation you described, and you certainly can't base all your decisions on this one case. Its better to be safe than sorry, and if your suspicions are wrong, well at least you know that the child is being looked after properly.

stovelid

anucksunamun wrote: »

but sometimes she is absolutely hysterical, when this happens the mother (who lives on the 3 rd floor) closes all windows etc.. but we can still hear her crying her heart out inside our apartments on the opposite side of the complex(just trying to give you an idea how loudly she is crying).

i have rang the cops three times, my neighbour has rang them five times(always when the child has been hysterical for longer than half an hour.. no stopping) this is breaking my heart.. please help me to help her..

Woah....

Our boy (11 weeks old) really cries if he has bad wind or is unsettled. Screams really. The other night he was at it for about an hour. The neighbours must surely have heard him.

It's fantastic that you are aware of the welfare of the child, but don't jump to conclusions, especially if you have little direct experience of children. It's a very serious allegation to make. One that can have lasting repercussions.

Dudess

The child in question is about six years old though.

beth-lou

Why not approach the father before the social services. And surely if she was being neglected the social services would have placed her in the care of her father before they'd place her with foster parents or back with her mother. Also why not get to know her a little, offer to babysit. Maybe she is depressed and on anti depressants. There are so many different scenarios to consider.
I do commend your concern. I don't think people should turn a blind eye to this sort of thing. But you have to thread very carefully. I would approach the father first, then take it from there.

stovelid

Dudess wrote: »

The child in question is about six years old though.

Sorry OP, I didn't see your post where you had confirmed the child's age. Apologies.

the GALL

"you have any considerable reason to suspect a child is being abused or neglected, then I think you have a moral duty to report it"
There was no way that the kids were being abused and anyone seeing them would say the same.
"there are professionals that can determine this"
that's true there are noisey neighbours are just that noisey
"innocent parents may have a visit from Social services and that's not going to be a lot of fun for them. I think that's a small price to pay to prevent children from being abused."
being branded a pedophile for no reason other than parents argueing is not a small price to pay by anyone's budget.
If the OP felt that strongly about it they wouldn't be wasting time on an internet forum trying to decide if they should report the childs parents (and dont forget this is going on a while now).

Kooli

Wow people are getting very dramatic in their replies.

Firstly, why do people keep mentioning paedophilia? The OP never mentioned sexual abuse, and this isn't a case of nosy neighbours spreading rumours, it's about a confidential report being made that no one needs to know about, and it is about the possibility of neglect (which can include lack of medical attention).

Secondly, where did anyone get the idea that social workers swoop in and take children away on the basis of no evidence? (I know I should quote directly here, sorry, but someone did suggest this I think...) The fact seems to be that this child is NOT OK.
The social worker is not there to take the child away (unless something serious is going on). They can provide support to the mother (who is obviously having a really hard time) and they usually work with the aim of keeping kids with their families/parents wherever possible.

the GALL

If the OP had any real concerns they would have got the social services on board when the 'inital abuse' started Or when she seen the 'spaced out mother' walking around with the child not waiting for opions from people on the internet.
Or she could have gone over to the said offender and challanged her about her actions.
Still sounds like a noisey neighbour to me with too much time on her hands.

jimmycrackcorm

whenever there are adverts on tv for child protection, they always show the kids suffering silently. The point being that making a lot of noise through crying doesn't necessarily mean abuse.

anucksunamun

the gall: if you had read the full thread you wouldnt have written what you just did. I'm not going to rewrite it all again. you obviously havent read the replies to your previous posts either. i dont see why you feel its necessary to attack me personally, your message sent at 16:06 actually makes little or no sense. Also NOSEY and NOISEY are not the same word. perhaps once you have actually read what has been written you could give a response that 1) makes sense and 2) keeps up with the topic.

LegacyUser

Is the kid Autistic? Have you endeavoured to find out?

anucksunamun

no the child is not autistic, nor does she show any outward signs of any illness or disability of any kind.

miss_shadow

I think people are responding to this thread a lot as it is a serious situation!
op i really hope you do the right thing but please be very very careful.
in my biased opinion, if an officer of any sort called to my door about my child ,i would feel very vulnerable.
what are you going to do, do you think?

Dudess

the GALL wrote: »

Still sounds like a nosey neighbour to me with too much time on her hands.

Based on what exactly? Having read the thread, I noticed the OP describe various pieces of a puzzle and she's simply putting them together...
She did ask the mother if the child was ok.

sam34

Dudess wrote: »

Based on what exactly? Having read the thread, I noticed the OP describe various pieces of a puzzle and she's simply putting them together...
She did ask the mother if the child was ok.

am playing devils advocate here but the op doesnt know the mother all that well.... if a neighbour of mine approached me and asked me personal questions about me and my child, id be inclined to tell them to feck off and mind their own business. the op says he/she asked the mother why the child cries so much...wtf?? maybe the kid is autistic, and the mother may not feel like sharing that private information with a nosey neighbour

MizzLolly

the GALL wrote: »

If the OP had any real concerns they would have got the social services on board when the 'inital abuse' started Or when she seen the 'spaced out mother' walking around with the child not waiting for opions from people on the internet.
Or she could have gone over to the said offender and challanged her about her actions.
Still sounds like a noisey neighbour to me with too much time on her hands.

Out of all the replies I found this one particularily rude. I don't think it's fair to suggest that the OP isn't genuinely concerned about this child. Why would she take the time to report it, talk to the mother and post up here if she was 'just being nosey'.

OP, I live with a social worker and I asked her what is the best action to take. As it's been mentioned above, contacting social services directly is the best way to go. They'll then visit the house, talk to the mother and determine if they need to step in or not. From what I understand, you've already contacted the gardai so social services will already be aware of your complaint. To be honest, if I heard a child ''screaming hysterically for hours on end'', I'd feel very distressed too and probably would ring the police. So I do understand why you did it. You're in a horrible situation. You've done all you can really, the guards are informed and social services (in my understanding) will be aware of it as a result of the garda phonecall (my housemate told me that social services are often contacted through people calling the police). There's not much else you can do. I would say that maybe approaching the mother is not a wise choice though, if for example, the child has not be neglected and she is Autistic/has ADHD etc.. the mother may find direct questioning like this very intrusive. Rest assured that you have done all you can for now.


I know you probably feel hopeless because there's no real action you can take to stop it, if you really are convinced that the kid is being abused the best thing to do now is take note of all the episodes you hear. My housemate told me that it's always good to have written diaries/notes on when/where any 'incident' took place. Just focus on doing that in the meantime. The guards know already so legally, it's in their hands now. Let's just hope it isn't child abuse.