fired.. seeking (legal) advice

deepriver

Hi

A number of months back I responded to an advert online with regards a job (sales/account management) in the web industry.

I was called for interview, and completed two interviews with the directors of a relatively small company.

They liked me and offered me a job.

The job offer was subject to a reference. I supplied contact details for my reference 1 week before the commencement of the employment. I was sent a contract which I signed an returned.

I heard nothing further and began the job. 1 week later I was called into a meeting with the directors who told me they checked the reference and felt I was not suitable for the job. I was let go. No prior warning before the meeting was given.

Just to avoid any confusion there were no disciplinary problems, inapropriate dressing, behaviour etc.

I am currently investigating my recourse through established public channels and bodies, but need to know my legal position.

Is it legally acceptable to make an employment contract subject to a reference? Which subsequently wasnt checked until after the employment began?

Any opinions, previous experiences or legal advice would be appreciated

Many thanks!

aidan_walsh

Legal advice should only be gotten from a lawyer.

AARRRGH

You were still on probation, so they can very easily let you go. They must have felt they had enough information about you to fire you.

If they didn't fire you, they should have followed whatever notice period (during probation) is in your contract.

What does your contract say?

wyndham

Who is your reference and what did they say to make your employer do that is the real question here?

Eoin

aidan_walsh wrote: »

Legal advice should only be gotten from a lawyer.

Absolutely agree, though there are some resources online you can read up on.

Check out the employment section on www.citizensinformation.ie - some very useful information there.

This is not legal advice, but I think you will have very little recourse one week into a job. Read up on the unfair dismissals act with regards to probationary periods.

deepriver

AARRRGH wrote: »

You were still on probation, so they can very easily let you go. They must have felt they had enough information about you to fire you.

If they didn't fire you, they should have followed whatever notice period (during probation) is in your contract.

What does your contract say?

sorry very good point and the source of my grievance

under law they are entitled to let me go

but its a little less clear how they should do this

my contract says 4 weeks notice

the labour relation commission code of practise for grievances (leading to being fired) says you should get prior written / oral / formal warnings

what the referee says is irrelevant because they dont have it in writing and she wont attend a hearing / court... however I have no reason to doubt it was a strong rating as we had a good working relationship

Eoin

deepriver wrote: »

the labour relation commission code of practise for grievances (leading to being fired) says you should get prior written / oral / formal warnings

That doesn't really apply when you're on probation. I think the best you can hope for is payment for your notice period.

AARRRGH

Do contracts of employment have the "cooling off period" which sales contracts have? You know, either party (?) can cancel the contract within 14 days or something like that.

I have no idea, but it would be worth investigating.

deepriver

Its really a case of understanding am I entitled to 4 weeks notice pay.. legally they can fire me.. and the labour commissions recommendations are just that, recommendations for best practise

just to be precise, it doesnt say in the contract they need to give me 4 weeks notice of termination, but it specifies this is what I must give them, so common sense may indicate that may also apply to them

penexpers

deepriver wrote: »

Its really a case of understanding am I entitled to 4 weeks notice pay.. legally they can fire me.. and the labour commissions recommendations are just that, recommendations for best practise

just to be precise, it doesnt say in the contract they need to give me 4 weeks notice of termination, but it specifies this is what I must give them, so common sense may indicate that may also apply to them

Not if you're on probation though. Most contracts have a standard clause that allows for termination during probation with no notice. Even then, I think you're only entitled to notice if you've worked somewhere for more than 13 weeks, and even in this case it's only one week's notice. To get 4 weeks notice you need to work there for five years.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/losing-your-job/losing_job_entitlements

I don't think you have any legal recourse.

AARRRGH

I'm nearly certain your contract overrides any of the statutory notice stuff.

OP: Do you believe you got a bad reference?

penexpers

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm nearly certain your contract overrides any of the statutory notice stuff.

Yes but nothing is mentioned in his contract about what notice period he is entitled to if they decide to terminate his employment. Therefore the legal minimums apply.

AARRRGH

penexpers wrote: »

Yes but nothing is mentioned in his contract about what notice period he is entitled to if they decide to terminate his employment. Therefore the legal minimums apply.

Ah! Good point.

Eoin

I'm confused. The OP says that the contract states 4 weeks. Unless the contract also specifically says that the notice period during probation is less, then the contract does take precendence over the statutory minimum.

deepriver

penexpers wrote: »

Yes but nothing is mentioned in his contract about what notice period he is entitled to if they decide to terminate his employment. Therefore the legal minimums apply.

thats the grey area... they require me to give 4 weeks, shouldnt they shoulder at a minimum the same responsibility of an employee of the company

Just in regards the reference...

I assume the reference was good.. but when they checked the reference, I also assume they asked leading questions, to meet their required end

in otherwords its irrelevant because they already had decided to fire me, but just needed a reason, the reference being the best and also in their opinion one that got them out of jail with little recourse, as the contract was subject to reference (which is specified in the contract)

AARRRGH

The contact says nothing about a probation period?

Eoin

deepriver wrote: »

in otherwords its irrelevant because they already had decided to fire me, but just needed a reason, the reference being the best and also in their opinion one that got them out of jail with little recourse, as the contract was subject to reference (which is specified in the contract)

There's just too much confusion here - you need to talk to a lawyer about this.

You don't have to be given a good reason during probation, and they don't have to follow any formal procedures to fire you during probation. However, I don't know what happens if a probationary period is not specified in the contract at all.

penexpers

deepriver wrote: »

thats the grey area... they require me to give 4 weeks, shouldnt they shoulder at a minimum the same responsibility of an employee of the company

There's no grey area about it. The law states that unless otherwise explicitly stated in your contract that you are entitled to more notice periods, then the legal minimums apply.

You could argue they should shoulder the same responsibility, but they are not obliged to by law.

Eoin

penexpers wrote: »

There's no grey area about it. The law states that unless otherwise explicitly stated in your contract that you are entitled to more notice periods, then the legal minimums apply.

That depends on how deepriver is interpreting the contract, which may not be completely clear to a layman.

deepriver - what do you want out of this - a few weeks pay? My advice is to suck it up and move on. If you are still on relatively good terms with them, then ask them what changed between the interview and your first week at work.

maggie797

Originally Posted by deepriver
in otherwords its irrelevant because they already had decided to fire me, but just needed a reason, the reference being the best and also in their opinion one that got them out of jail with little recourse, as the contract was subject to reference (which is specified in the contract)

contrary from your first post you seem to realise that they already had decided to fire you? why do you think that was?
Most work contracts are subject to satisfatory references(check the small print of any offer letter) If they fired you due to a reference then I believe you have may be able to take action against your referee if the reference was unsubstantiated. For eg if they told your current employers you had poor time keeping or poor absence then they need to substaniate this with proof that you had recieved warnings about these things, however this may be hard for you to prove if it was a verbal reference that was given.

deepriver

There reference is irrelevant to the situation (and I dont mean that in a dismissive way to posters comments).

Why they fired me is also irrelevant (it could have been because they didnt like the colour of my tie), the point being I will never know entirely but if you were to guess they got cold feet and in a small company they have the ability to react quickly with out the processes of a large organisation... the net result is they moved very quickly

the reference was the excuse because I wouldnt put a bad referee on my CV

Just to be clear when you guys talk about statutory rights.. what are you referring to? Redudancy rights for time served? Doesnt apply in this situation, I worked for 4 days

Its clear theree actions were very bad practise as they ripped up the labour rights commision code of practise and uncermonoiusly sacked me with no notice

my only arguement is.. was I entitled to 4 weeks notice, something they specified from me

with regards 'probationary periods'... the unfair dismissals act says they are entitled to let me in a period of 6 months or 1 year I forget which, so this isnt a point I am arguing over

Eoin

Once again, formal disciplinary procedures do not have to be, and rarely are, followed during a probationary period. It is quite normal to be told that it's not working out, and to please clear out your desk.

Would you not be better off trying to figure out why they thought you were not a good match for the job and use that to move on?

Edit - the nuances of your contract regarding notice periods are best left to a solicitor, rather than random people on the internet who haven't read it.

Kinetic^

Deepriver, here's what you do. You ask some friends or family members if they know a good solicitor. If they give you one, call said solicitor and tell them your story. They may ask to meet you in which they will go through in detail what happened and will inform you whether or not the company you previously worked for was in the right or wrong.


I've been on the receiving end of an unfair dismissal and going to a solicitor was the first thing I did. I felt angry at the time and that I was in the right but talking about it on a message board and asking for advice would've got me nowhere. Call a solicitor as soon as you can.

seamus

deepriver wrote: »

Its clear theree actions were very bad practise as they ripped up the labour rights commision code of practise and uncermonoiusly sacked me with no notice

You were there for 4 days. Notice was not required.

my only arguement is.. was I entitled to 4 weeks notice, something they specified from me

No. Your contract required you to give 4 weeks. It didn't require them to give four weeks, which means that the statutory minimum applies to them, i.e. none.

I've signed plenty of contracts which required me to give 4 weeks, but the company only had to give the statutory. I don't mind because tbh if a company doesn't want me working there, I don't want 4 weeks notice.

deepriver

kentic - I dont think its worth the money of going to a solicitor... I am assessing going before the labour court, but want as much prior knowledge as possible

My thoughts are they will make a judgement call on it, as it seems to be a slightly grey area

Just on that posters question as to my motivation - I took on this job and was very happy to do so, telling family and friends. I am quite a thorough and professional person who believes in courtesy and fair treatment. This is why I am pursuing the matter, as I believe the company acted inappropriately in hiring me and firing me in such a manner with little regard for my personal situation

if they were so hung up on the reference they had 1 week to check it before I joined, so it was either bad practise to hire me without checking it or ill advised as I didnt suit the role, in which case two interviews should have established that

either way its my opinion they were entirely unprofessional

seamus

deepriver wrote: »

either way its my opinion they were entirely unprofessional

Probably. They should have checked the reference before allowing you to start. But it's not illegal to be unprofessional.

You'd be wasting a monumental amount of time and money fighting this tbh. There's nothing in it.

Move on and forget about it.

deepriver

seamus wrote: »

You were there for 4 days. Notice was not required.

No. Your contract required you to give 4 weeks. It didn't require them to give four weeks, which means that the statutory minimum applies to them, i.e. none.

I've signed plenty of contracts which required me to give 4 weeks, but the company only had to give the statutory. I don't mind because tbh if a company doesn't want me working there, I don't want 4 weeks notice.

hi seamus
which statutory?

Kinetic^

If you wanted to pursue this as much as you could, you'd go to a solicitor.

Eoin

deepriver wrote: »

hi seamus
which statutory?

The link has already been posted - http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/losing-your-job/losing_job_entitlements

GoneShootin

Kinetic^ wrote: »

If you wanted to pursue this as much as you could, you'd go to a solicitor.

Please don't seek legal advice on boards.ie.