Deer hybridisation

NoNameRanger

jwshooter wrote: »

hi tiny i know of sika in clonmel did you hear them there ,dont say where but good to see em in your parts

You can't be serious!:eek: Moving Sika around this country is madness. We have our native Reds in Kerry and pure Sika also. There are several herds of very fine reds of various origins around the country. Putting Sika in Tipperary is bringing Hybrids closer to this precious Kerry population and is putting their genetic integrity in danger. If people want to shoot hybrids go to Wicklow and stop spreading them around the country to destroy other herds. We are going to end up with a country full of sika hybrids and all down to the stupidity and selfishness of a few. They are in the west now too. What are they going to release next?:rolleyes: Conservationists my ar$e!!!!:mad: Idiots with guns and too much time and money more like.:mad: They had plenty of Fallow and Reds, now they want to replace them with sika. The Fallow will be out competed and pushed out by the Sika and the Reds will be bred out through hybridisation.:mad:

jwshooter

NoNameRanger wrote: »

You can't be serious!:eek: Moving Sika around this country is madness. We have our native Reds in Kerry and pure Sika also. There are several herds of very fine reds of various origins around the country. Putting Sika in Tipperary is bringing Hybrids closer to this precious Kerry population and is putting their genetic integrity in danger. If people want to shoot hybrids go to Wicklow and stop spreading them around the country to destroy other herds. We are going to end up with a country full of sika hybrids and all down to the stupidity and selfishness of a few. They are in the west now too. What are they going to release next?:rolleyes: Conservationists my ar$e!!!!:mad: Idiots with guns and too much time and money more like.:mad: They had plenty of Fallow and Reds, now they want to replace them with sika. The Fallow will be out competed and pushed out by the Sika and the Reds will be bred out through hybridisation.:mad:

there is sika in kerry for hundreds of years and i have not heard of hybridisation there .also what is a pure sika .the sika in kerrry came from lord powers courts heard ? i think that answers its self

NoNameRanger

Hybridisation happened in captivity on Lord Powerscourt Estate, the off spring from these escaped into the wicklow mountains to form the herds you have today, all Red/ Sika deer in Wicklow are hybrids. Some look like sika deer and some look like Red deer but they are all hybrids and some look like a mixture of both. The sika in Kerry are deemed as pure because they were sent to Kerry before the hybridisation happened in Wicklow, Sika were released near Killarney, County Kerry in 1865 by Lord Kenmare, they were also sent to Fermanagh and to the UK before hybridisation.
Any further movement of Sika or hybrid deer in Ireland only accelerates the rate at which the Kerry population mixes with the Wicklow population.
There are no comfirmed records of hybridisation in Kerry. But i'm sure somebody will say they know of one, but to be honest i take little notice of alot of hunters skills at identifying deer, I recently met a guy who said he only shoots sika in the Slieve Blooms and has never seen a fallow there!:rolleyes:

Deer Hunter DL

i was in killarney 2 weeks ago and seen both sika and red deer and then one evening i seen 4 stags with the head of a red deer and a slightly biger body than sika surly they were hybrids , there was red deer hinds and calfs in the field next to these 4 stags and there was no mistake what they were as the hinds and one of the calfs or (1 years old) was alot bigger than the 4 stags in question

NoNameRanger

I spend alot of time watching deer in Kerry and i've never seen a hybrid. And neither have any other Rangers down here. You probably saw mature Sika stags, they're all colors at this time because they are between summer and winter coats. I see you took some photos while there, did you happen to get these stags?

Deer Hunter DL

Must of been mature sika as they looked way to small for red deer ,i only got one pic and its not very good as my camera was acting up this pic is of a 14 pointer the 3 others were from 8 to 10 i think there werent as close

NoNameRanger

Looks like Red to me from that photo, with 14 points it has to be a Red Stag. And the 8-10 point others sound like young Red stags too. Hybrids seldom get much more than 8-10 points at best.
It wasn't a bit of the Father Ted and Dougal theme was it?:) "these cows are near and these are far away":). Red stags look a lot smaller in the summer while the are in velvet because they haven't developed the characteristic mane we associate with them when we see them during the hunting season. And some of them Reds ye have in Donegal are monsters.:D

Deer Hunter DL

could of been a bit of father ted and dougal alrite lol, the red deer up with us seem alot bigger alrite maybe this is why i thought the kerry red deer kinda small, why is this ???

NoNameRanger

Deer Hunter DL wrote: »

could of been a bit of father ted and dougal alrite lol, the red deer up with us seem alot bigger alrite maybe this is why i thought the kerry red deer kinda small, why is this ???

Seems to be some massive animals showing up in Donegal in recent years, either some farm animals escaped or they have just found some very good feeding (angel dust:)). The Donegal Reds are made up of several different lineages, Native, Scottish and European, with some farm and park blood for good measure in places.
The Kerry Reds are naturally smaller and are classified the same as the Scottish deer in the CIC measuring system for trophies, they are basically smaller due to the available nutrition or lack of it. Hill animals will always be smaller than lowland animals.

jwshooter

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Seems to be some massive animals showing up in Donegal in recent years, either some farm animals escaped or they have just found some very good feeding (angel dust:)). The Donegal Reds are made up of several different lineages, Native, Scottish and European, with some farm and park blood for good measure in places.
The Kerry Reds are naturally smaller and are classified the same as the Scottish deer in the CIC measuring system for trophies, they are basically smaller due to the available nutrition or lack of it. Hill animals will always be smaller than lowland animals.

who is to say what is what any more the sika in clonmel are there well over ten years now also a sika stag can cover 30 miles in a few nites that was recorded some years back with radio collors , hinds mostly will die less than a few miles from where there born ,the reds in kerry are not as big as reds in meath or else where in the country this also goes for the sika down there they are smaller than wicklow .sika in parts of wicklow where all hibrids are shot on site are smaller than normal i am mostly referring hinds i have a 13 point hibrid i shot about 10 years ago in wicklow ,the sika gene is taking over and in the hibrids

NoNameRanger

jwshooter wrote: »

who is to say what is what any more the sika in clonmel are there well over ten years now also a sika stag can cover 30 miles in a few nites that was recorded some years back with radio collors , hinds mostly will die less than a few miles from where there born ,the reds in kerry are not as big as reds in meath or else where in the country this also goes for the sika down there they are smaller than wicklow .sika in parts of wicklow where all hibrids are shot on site are smaller than normal i am mostly referring hinds i have a 13 point hibrid i shot about 10 years ago in wicklow ,the sika gene is taking over and in the hibrids

The Sika in Killarney are smaller because they don't have any Red Deer blood in them, they all originated from 1 stag and 3 hinds. A stag will travel great distances thats true, but that is not going to spread the population with any great speed if the hinds only travel a couple of miles from where they were born in their lifetime. Moving hinds to Tipperary and other sites has sped up the movement of Sika/ hybrids and the destruction of the Kerry herds by 100's of years, not to mention the other herds of fine Red Deer in the country. In our lifetimes there will no longer be any native deer in Ireland and that is sinful, just so a few lads could have hybrids in their area. They may be in Tipperary 10 years but that still doesn't make it right or any better. We should be wiping out the hybrids in Wicklow and starting fresh with native stock instead of spreading hybrids all over the country. But thats the selfishness of Irish hunters.

"Who's to say whats what?"

Well not the idiots moving deer around the country with no research whatsoever, to back up what they are doing, nothing except for their ego's, fuzzy logic and handy analogies. They are deer shooters and they don't give a damn as long as there are plenty deer with big antlers to shoot for them.
All those Reds that were dumped or escaped in Wicklow over the last 15 years were quickly bred out and hybridised. There is a herd of escaped farmed animals on the National Park and they are the last sign of Red deer in Wicklow and they are showing signs of hybridisation. For a few years people were getting the odd big redlike or possibly Red animal like yours but they are gone now and the same awaits the Kerry Reds.
Kerry Reds can put up 16-18 points, Kerry Sika put up poor heads even though the conditions are better for them than the Wicklow Sika. Wicklow is full of medal class Sika/ Sikalike animals, its the red blood in them that gives bigger antlers! The Redlike seldom have more than 10 points, this is due to the sika blood in them. We are breeding our big deer small, fine for the lazy hunter i suppose.:rolleyes:

BryanL

No Name,
i think the vast majority would support what your saying. I'd be happy to never shoot a deer again rather than lose native reds
Bryan

tiny-nioclas

I agree, you make alot of sence, id rather have no deer to shoot rather than lose our true native genetics in Kerry, should we just shoot any sika we see so? why isnt this taken more seriously nonameranger? its obviously going to be a big problem down along the lines, why arent all hybrids just shot out altogether?

Sika_Stalker

ok from what ive heard is that there is genetic testing being carried out at the moment with samples from wicklow reds and sika aswel as kerry reds and sika to determin the overall genetic purity of the animals the kerry reds are being tested against anicent remains as i get it and the kerry sika and wicklow ones are being tested against other pure sika herds.
i do beleive this is what is being done at the moment with result some time after christmas.
Also i think tis topic should be put into a tread of its own as it could be quite interesting??

tiny-nioclas

Definately open a new thread for this alone,its very interesting, would it take a matter of decades for the hybrids from wicklow to travel and populate the lands closer to kerry, or more?

Sika_Stalker

depending on how many fools release sika in between
I can say sika have travelled east into west cork now and maybe north of kerry

BryanL

But there are no Sika in East Cork? so surely they are coming from Kerry into West Cork?
Bryan

tiny-nioclas

Is there any plan in place to cull them or something, surely the preservation of native red's is more importnat than a few hybrids?

tiny-nioclas

Ive heard them very close to east cork, just a few miles from youghal even, just last year!

NoNameRanger

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

ok from what ive heard is that there is genetic testing being carried out at the moment with samples from wicklow reds and sika aswel as kerry reds and sika to determin the overall genetic purity of the animals the kerry reds are being tested against anicent remains as i get it and the kerry sika and wicklow ones are being tested against other pure sika herds.
i do beleive this is what is being done at the moment with result some time after christmas.
Also i think tis topic should be put into a tread of its own as it could be quite interesting??

This could do with its own thread, maybe a mod could move it.
You are correct in what you say, Dr Ruth Carden is carrying out the research you speak of and the result will certainly be very interesting. If our Kerry Reds are proven to have arrived after the land bridge 10,000 years ago, that means they were introduced by man, either way they are the longest surviving strain of deer in Ireland next to some of our Fallow herds introduced by the Normans. Some research is needed there too i believe.

should we just shoot any sika we see so?

Shoot on sight!! No mercy Tiny:)

Is there any plan in place to cull them or something, surely the preservation of native red's is more importnat than a few hybrids?

Management in NPWS haven't the balls. They will wait until it is a huge problem most likely and then they will talk about it and conclude that there is nothing they can do because they don't have the resources.
It is a joke that Sika hybrids are protetcted and Rangers in Wicklow have to patrol at night in the wicklow mountains to enforce those laws when they should in fact be out shooting them. They are putting themselves in dangerous situations to save an invasive species:rolleyes:. Its not their fault, they are doing what they are told by management. The wicklow deer population is out of control. Sika and hybrids should be removed as protected species from the wildlife act. You would still need permission to hunt them on any lands but it would allow landowners to manage their herds as they wish and remove the need for Section 42 licences. The regulations on calibers would also need to be kept.
Do you think the deer society would support this though?

its obviously going to be a big problem down along the lines, why arent all hybrids just shot out altogether?

There's at least 40,000 in Wicklow alone. It would take a mighty effort and a lot of political will. I don't believe it would be possible. Maybe a foot and mouth out break in wicklow would do it. If we could just wipe out the ones outside of Wicklow and stop the spread that would be sufficent.

IRLConor

Split out into a thread of its own. Sorry it took so long, I wasn't paying attention.

jwshooter

reds dumped or escaped in wicklow over the last 15 years were quickly bred out and hybridised ...if one dumped or escaped animal breds into a wild heard we have a new gene be it good or bad and its there to stay for ever ..so that heard is NOT pure ..also you say a heard of escaped farmed red deer now live on the national park they are the last sign of red deer in wicklow so the npws now have a deer farm ,none of the red or red like deer living in wicklow are native there all bastards made up of many fathers from 1600 to the early part of the 20th century there was no record of red deer in wicklow .we have lord powercourt to thank again as esapees from his deer park repopulated areas of wicklow sally gap, turlough hill and glendalough also hybridization had happened at this stage in the confines of powerscourt deer park.. kerry the red in kerry around muckross and kenmare have been recorded back to the end of the ice age .at the turn of the century there were 1500 plus deer in kilarney ,this dropped to 60 animals in the 1960s so are the reds in kerry pure native kerry irish deer ,,NO is the answer back in the 19th century a number of introductions were made from scotland to improve trophy quality .once a new gene is introduced its there for ever red deer in ireland are mostly made up from imports from scotland england and france .

Sika_Stalker

personaly i think we should wait for the results of the genetic tests before we start thinking to hard about how to solve any problems imaginary or not

jwshooter

NoNameRanger wrote: »

This could do with its own thread, maybe a mod could move it.
You are correct in what you say, Dr Ruth Carden is carrying out the research you speak of and the result will certainly be very interesting. If our Kerry Reds are proven to have arrived after the land bridge 10,000 years ago, that means they were introduced by man, either way they are the longest surviving strain of deer in Ireland next to some of our Fallow herds introduced by the Normans. Some research is needed there too i believe.


Shoot on sight!! No mercy Tiny:)



Management in NPWS haven't the balls. They will wait until it is a huge problem most likely and then they will talk about it and conclude that there is nothing they can do because they don't have the resources.
It is a joke that Sika hybrids are protetcted and Rangers in Wicklow have to patrol at night in the wicklow mountains to enforce those laws when they should in fact be out shooting them. They are putting themselves in dangerous situations to save an invasive species:rolleyes:. Its not their fault, they are doing what they are told by management. The wicklow deer population is out of control. Sika and hybrids should be removed as protected species from the wildlife act. You would still need permission to hunt them on any lands but it would allow landowners to manage their herds as they wish and remove the need for Section 42 licences. The regulations on calibers would also need to be kept.
Do you think the deer society would support this though?


There's at least 40,000 in Wicklow alone. It would take a mighty effort and a lot of political will. I don't believe it would be possible. Maybe a foot and mouth out break in wicklow would do it. If we could just wipe out the ones outside of Wicklow and stop the spread that would be sufficent.

this is more of it ,i was talking to a ranger on the gap last week he had the same story that npws would like to see sika ,hybrids taken off the protected list this total bull**** the only place deer are out of control is on the park shooting a few hundred of the roads is not going to slove the problem ,its going to take a good keen man with a rifle that knows what he is doing for a few seasons and im not talking about shooting them and leaving them on the hill as was done before .also i would spend a far bit of time patroling and have yet to meet a ranger at nite this year .im not ranger bashing hear i know the crew in wicklow and there keen to get stuck in but are not let .the powers to be in the npws will have to face up to there responsibilltys to the heard it is a out rage the way the deer for want of a better word are managed on the national park in wicklow

tiny-nioclas

Will do, im heading out for a stalk in the morning if i see any sika i'l give them the works , when are the results of them tests coming out, its true what JW said about the scottish genes after coming into kerry, so the native genes could be gone already??

BryanL

tiny-nioclas wrote: »

Ive heard them very close to east cork, just a few miles from youghal even, just last year!

well they mustn't have crossed the Blackwater yet?
anyone see the charlie boorman show tonight,he was driving in the Wicklow hills and 6 Sika ran in front of the car and they passed another 2!
Bryan

John Griffin

jwshooter wrote: »

this is more of it ,i was talking to a ranger on the gap last week he had the same story that npws would like to see sika ,hybrids taken off the protected list this total bull**** the only place deer are out of control is on the park shooting a few hundred of the roads is not going to slove the problem ,its going to take a good keen man with a rifle that knows what he is doing for a few seasons and im not talking about shooting them and leaving them on the hill as was done before .also i would spend a far bit of time patroling and have yet to meet a ranger at nite this year .im not ranger bashing hear i know the crew in wicklow and there keen to get stuck in but are not let .the powers to be in the npws will have to face up to there responsibilltys to the heard it is a out rage the way the deer for want of a better word are managed on the national park in wicklow

I try to stay out of this kind of sh1t, but looks like i've been dragged into it, I'm one of those Wicklow Rangers. You did meet a Ranger at night this year. You met me and one other while you were out shooting last february with a lamp from the Military Road near the Sally Gap. Granted you were doing it legally under a section 42. But we did meet:). We also met 3 others that didn't have a licence and took all their stuff and a judge will be deciding soon whether they were in the wrong. There are 2000 approx deer in the national park and they are counted twice a year by both helicopter and on foot. That population is culled every year and i account for the vast majority of the cull and it's not all from the roadside as you suggest. Yes we lamp some deer (as you and others do) from our forest tracks under Section 42 ( protection of flora and fauna). It's effective deer and time management!!

its going to take a good keen man with a rifle that knows what he is doing for a few seasons and im not talking about shooting them and leaving them on the hill as was done before

I believe a well known writer on this subject was caught for polluting a water source with 2 red deer carcasses and a large number of ducks.:) Let he who hasn't sinned cast the first stone.:P
Below the belt John, don't go there!!

And will you ever start using some spell check and a bit of punctuation.

tiny-nioclas

How many of that 2000 deer would have to be culled every in order to keep a healthy population john? I didnt get any shot this morning

jwshooter

John Griffin wrote: »

I try to stay out of this kind of sh1t, but looks like i've been dragged into it, I'm one of those Wicklow Rangers. You did meet a Ranger at night this year. You met me and one other while you were out shooting last february with a lamp from the Military Road near the Sally Gap. Granted you were doing it legally under a section 42. But we did meet:). We also met 3 others that didn't have a licence and took all their stuff and a judge will be deciding soon whether they were in the wrong. There are 2000 approx deer in the national park and they are counted twice a year by both helicopter and on foot. That population is culled every year and i account for the vast majority of the cull and it's not all from the roadside as you suggest. Yes we lamp some deer (as you and others do) from our forest tracks under Section 42 ( protection of flora and fauna). It's effective deer and time management!!


I believe a well known writer on this subject was caught for polluting a water source with 2 red deer carcasses and a large number of ducks.:) Let he who hasn't sinned cast the first stone.:P
Below the belt John, don't go there!!

And will you ever start using some spell check and a bit of punctuation.

i did not hear of the 2 red deer and the ducks where did this happen and i was talking about this years season .if the npws have a effective deer management plan going why do they want the season removed for sika ,

CJhaughey

Sika are already in West Cork down as far as Castletownbere.

Sika_Stalker

CJhaughey wrote: »

Sika are already in West Cork down as far as Castletownbere.

they have gone further east then that but there numbers are low

Sika_Stalker

i would like to see some pictures of extream hybirdisation as im only shooting in kerry,
if any body would be nice enough to post some i would be very greatful.

yank_in_eire

NoNameRanger wrote: »

What are they going to release next?:rolleyes:

Whitetails would be nice!:p

John Griffin

jwshooter wrote: »

i did not hear of the 2 red deer and the ducks where did this happen and i was talking about this years season .if the npws have a effective deer management plan going why do they want the season removed for sika ,

Keep your ear to the ground, I'm obviously not saying it here, it's common knowledge, I was told about it again today, apparently he was convicted and fined:D

NPWS can only control the deer on their own lands and they have no problem with managing their own deer. The problem comes from the lands outside their control that are shot by recreational shooters. There are simply not enough deer being shot. The population is expanding rapidly and there will be major trouble in the next 10 years. NNR mentioned 40,000 deer in Wicklow, thats very conservative. Probably closer to 60,000 and with a conservative rate of growth of 10% per year, that's 66,000 next year, 72,600 the year and so on. To reverse that trend at least 25% of the total number would need to be culled each year to reduce the population. That would mean that 15,000 deer would need to be culled in Wicklow alone this year. That won't happen in this open season and never have that many deer been shot in Wicklow in a single season. This would suggest that drastic action needs to be taken and people are talking about removing them as a protected species as a solution. Those that manage their deer properly on their lands can continue to do so as it is still illegal to hunt on lands you have no permission on. Deer are primarily nocturnal and the vast conifer plantations hold the majority of Wicklows deer. I heard recently that 20,000 deer were shot for the whloe country last year, we are not controlling deer in Ireland and that is a fact. Most hunters don't want to reduce numbers and why would they. But when they reach saturation point it will be impossible to control them and then it will be out of their hands and drastic measures will be taken then. Who knows, maybe the army will be brought in again like during Foot and mouth.

tiny-nioclas wrote: »

How many of that 2000 deer would have to be culled every in order to keep a healthy population john? I didnt get any shot this morning

300-350 depending on sex/age ratio.

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

i would like to see some pictures of extream hybirdisation as im only shooting in kerry,
if any body would be nice enough to post some i would be very greatful.

Will see what i can dig out, but they are very varied.

jwshooter

John Griffin wrote: »

Keep your ear to the ground, I'm obviously not saying it here, it's common knowledge, I was told about it again today, apparently he was convicted and fined:D

NPWS can only control the deer on their own lands and they have no problem with managing their own deer. The problem comes from the lands outside their control that are shot by recreational shooters. There are simply not enough deer being shot. The population is expanding rapidly and there will be major trouble in the next 10 years. NNR mentioned 40,000 deer in Wicklow, thats very conservative. Probably closer to 60,000 and with a conservative rate of growth of 10% per year, that's 66,000 next year, 72,600 the year and so on. To reverse that trend at least 25% of the total number would need to be culled each year to reduce the population. That would mean that 15,000 deer would need to be culled in Wicklow alone this year. That won't happen in this open season and never have that many deer been shot in Wicklow in a single season. This would suggest that drastic action needs to be taken and people are talking about removing them as a protected species as a solution. Those that manage their deer properly on their lands can continue to do so as it is still illegal to hunt on lands you have no permission on. Deer are primarily nocturnal and the vast conifer plantations hold the majority of Wicklows deer. I heard recently that 20,000 deer were shot for the whloe country last year, we are not controlling deer in Ireland and that is a fact. Most hunters don't want to reduce numbers and why would they. But when they reach saturation point it will be impossible to control them and then it will be out of their hands and drastic measures will be taken then. Who knows, maybe the army will be brought in again like during Foot and mouth.




300-350 depending on sex/age ratio.



Will see what i can dig out, but they are very varied.

well there is two less after this eve . i shot a pricket with three legs missing a back lost it as a calf by the looks of it .it had a long spike on the side of the lost leg about 10 inchs and a short twisted spike of the other he was with two other prickets and a nice six , when i came back to drag him out his mate was back smelling about he is also no loss to the gene pool mr v max under the chin .pair of em on the drag rope put a sweat me ,first good drag this season

John Griffin

Well done, just back from Midlands, had a good day on the range:). You should keep that pricket head.

Sika_Stalker

John Griffin wrote: »

Will see what i can dig out, but they are very varied.

thanks any way

Mellor

Reds and Sika can mate to produce fertile Hybrids. This in its self is unusual.
and these hybrids can breed with both Reds and Sikas, creating mongrels really.

Apart from appearance (bearing traits from both Reds and Sikas), these hybrids are different on a behavioural level. They have long (it was noted many years ago) been shown to lack basic survival instincts. Which means in a hostile environment, hybrids die out. Now i'm not suggesting that only pure breds survive, but its a natural selection that encourages pure lines. To be it bluntly, hybrids show signs of mental imparment.

Now, this is all fine in a hostile environment. Predators help keep herds strong by killing the weaker deer. But since we have wiped out our predators (I can't give a date, surely someone can) it becomes a problem here. Some people may feel that hybridisation is fine (sure whats pure anyway), but I think it would be a sad day if we lost both the Red and the Sika to Hybrids.

If all the deer in the country end up with Genes messed up enough to render them all essentially Hybrids. What would be the next biggest native animal. For the country they spawned the worlds largest Deer, and the worlds largest Dog, We do our best at times to see them off.

jwshooter

John Griffin wrote: »

Well done, just back from Midlands, had a good day on the range:). You should keep that pricket head.

how far did you shoot out to and what were the groups like were you using your 25 what thread do you have on it

jwshooter

Mellor wrote: »

Reds and Sika can mate to produce fertile Hybrids. This in its self is unusual.
and these hybrids can breed with both Reds and Sikas, creating mongrels really.

Apart from appearance (bearing traits from both Reds and Sikas), these hybrids are different on a behavioural level. They have long (it was noted many years ago) been shown to lack basic survival instincts. Which means in a hostile environment, hybrids die out. Now i'm not suggesting that only pure breds survive, but its a natural selection that encourages pure lines. To be it bluntly, hybrids show signs of mental imparment.

Now, this is all fine in a hostile environment. Predators help keep herds strong by killing the weaker deer. But since we have wiped out our predators (I can't give a date, surely someone can) it becomes a problem here. Some people may feel that hybridisation is fine (sure whats pure anyway), but I think it would be a sad day if we lost both the Red and the Sika to Hybrids.

If all the deer in the country end up with Genes messed up enough to render them all essentially Hybrids. What would be the next biggest native animal. For the country they spawned the worlds largest Deer, and the worlds largest Dog, We do our best at times to see them off.

not sure i agree i have been lucky in my hunting and have shot most parts of wicklow from the wicklow gap sally gap glenmalure all hybrid country i have shot 100s of them .they are clever if you ask me they have the best of both worlds they will live on the hill in good weather and move into wood land in bad ...after a storm or very bad weather on the wicklow gap in the woods around turlough hill i have often seen very large numbers of hybrids some very big animals ,also i shot a wood beside glanmacnass water fall i have seen the hybrids run from the wood out onto the open hill only stopping 100s of yards out in the evening on the park .the most i counted was 170 about 12 years ago on the sally gap one day ,i would have a soft spot for them they are a wicklow icon

John Griffin

jwshooter wrote: »

how far did you shoot out to and what were the groups like were you using your 25 what thread do you have on it

Out to 300. About inch groups at 100 with the Sako .25-06 finnlight with the T8, federal 117 premiums . More than happy with it. I have 6x42 on it so would probably tighten the groups a bit more with a bit of magnification.

jwshooter

John Griffin wrote: »

Out to 300. About inch groups at 100 with the Sako .25-06 finnlight with the T8, federal 117 premiums . More than happy with it. I have 6x42 on it so would probably tighten the groups a bit more with a bit of magnification.

6 power at 300 gets kinda hard to see the bull ,i set up a sako 85 SS for a lad last week and a tikka for his brother both 25.06 the sako kicked more with federal soft points the 85s not a nice gun im sad to say .looking forward to the rut and whacking some hinds ,with all the wet weather im not getting any training in this time last your i was on the bike most eve s . just hope i dont get fat

John Griffin

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

i would like to see some pictures of extream hybirdisation as im only shooting in kerry,
if any body would be nice enough to post some i would be very greatful.

Just a few to confuse you all.

Sika-like


Red-Like, best example from Derrybawn in National Park


Hybrids from Glenealo in the National Park almost a 50/50 looking mix



Hybrid Stag, would probably pass for Sika in CIC standards.


Also available in white:)(albino hind in the National Park)

jwshooter

John Griffin wrote: »

Just a few to confuse you all.

Sika-like


Red-Like, best example from Derrybawn in National Park


Hybrids from Glenealo in the National Park almost a 50/50 looking mix



Hybrid Stag, would probably pass for Sika in CIC standards.


Also available in white:)(albino hind in the National Park)

did the albino have a calf this year john ..you would be doing well do sell the stag as sika

John Griffin

jwshooter wrote: »

did the albino have a calf this year john ..you would be doing well do sell the stag as sika

She 3 years old now and i haven't seen a calf with her yet. I haven't got close enough to see this season yet, but i suspect she could be infertile. She wouldn't last a single season outside the park, I'm surprised nobody has poached her yet actually. But she's with a wary bunch of hinds:)
They just measure the nose bone so if its short enough he is classified a sika. Some fairly dodgey ones made it through already. If i ever have to shoot him I'll have him measured and let you know. We all know he shouldn't be classified as a Sika but :rolleyes::)

thelurcher

Would they ever consider opening up the summer months like they do in the UK for Roe bucks?
Those long evenings and mornings would bring a lot of people out.
The problem as it stands IMO is that very few people shoot the whole season - it's mainly just September/October and the odd day after that - then the shotguns are out or fellas like me are out with the terriers, lurchers or hounds.

kerryman12

Guys

I remember reading one time that there are no records of hybridisation in the wild between Sika/Red, is this accurate or unclear.

I was shooting at the weekend at home and spotted a fine 16 point Red stag, great to see such a fine animal. I would never shoot such a animal, never mind that fact that I am was in Kerry and of course it is not permitted. Even though I was in the open I stayed still and he ignored me. He moved off into a small wooded area.

I havent seen Red hinds in this area for years, but I know there are Sika hinds resident in this small wooded area. Of course he may just be passing through!!

Bearing in mind that it was Kerry and the content of this thread, maybe a question worth asking I think?

Regards

NoNameRanger

Hybridisation in the wild between Pure red and Sika is very rare. In Ireland it started in captivity. But once you have one hybrid it becomes a snowball effect. I don't believe there are any hybrids in Kerry.
Kerry Reds and Sika live side by side, there is a massive differnce in size and alot of things need to fall into place for mating between them to occur and that would just be the start of it. A 16 point red would most likely rupture the uterus of a sika hind and kill her. A sika stag couldn't reach a mature red hind. Only when animals of the correct sizes i.e. immature red stag and mature sika hind are put together in captivity do you stand a good chance of hybridisation. The offspring from them would then be able to breed with both Reds and sika and that would be the start of the snowball effect.

Would they ever consider opening up the summer months like they do in the UK for Roe bucks?
Those long evenings and mornings would bring a lot of people out.
The problem as it stands IMO is that very few people shoot the whole season - it's mainly just September/October and the odd day after that - then the shotguns are out or fellas like me are out with the terriers, lurchers or hounds.

People seem to have a problem with shooting stags while they are in velvet and Hinds when they are pregnant or shooting very young calves. Roe deer run on a different cycle and rut in July. In reality the sika should be made an unprotected species, meaning they can be shot all year round legally. The rest of the law would still apply such as permission to hunt, it wouldn't be a free for all as some people suggest. It would just mean that there would be no restriction to the landowner on how they want to manage deer on their land. This would also make lamping of Sika legal, lamping is the most effective way of controlling sika. It should only be applied to sika as they are the most invasive and damaging. The season for Fallow does and Reds hinds should be extended to the end of March. And organised driven Sika hunts should be permitted to use shotguns with suitable deer loads.
This would go a long way towards helping the situation as it stands but it is most likely not enough. The state will probably have to hire a large number of professional stalkers to target conifer plantations in the near future. Time for people to wake up and smell the coffee. I can just imagine the battle the NARGC and IDS would put up to stop this happening, they'll talk about being sporting, cruelty and killing unborn baby deer no doubt, or leaving young deer to starve in the summer. But the reality is for them the more deer in Ireland, the more there is to hunt, the more shots you get to fire and the less you have to walk from your vehicle. But for farmers, landowners and Irelands ecology and biodiversity it is not so simple.

@JG if you want that stags nose bone measured give me a shout:D

Sika_Stalker

but really the only place there seems to be no great problem with sika is kerry, as in no signs of hybridisation. So why should the sika in kerry have to be brought under the same rulings noname is proposing when the only danger is coming from the leinster deer. If there is a problem with animals in an area why should the whole country have to come under the same solution to this problem in siad area.

NoNameRanger

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

but really the only place there seems to be no great problem with sika is kerry, as in no signs of hybridisation. So why should the sika in kerry have to be brought under the same rulings noname is proposing when the only danger is coming from the leinster deer. If there is a problem with animals in an area why should the whole country have to come under the same solution to this problem in siad area.

Yes you are right, but the sika in Kerry are expanding their range also into Cork as has being mentioned already. The Kerry Sika are of international importance as it stands. Perhaps the solution would be to keep things as they are at present with maybe an extension of the hind season to the end of March. But to stop the spread of all Sika outside of the county of Kerry.
I don't advocate the extermination of Sika or hybrids, they just need to be contained and controlled for their own good. Hybrids in Wicklow only and pure Sika in Kerry only and nothing in between except fallow, all farmed red deer escapees need to be exterminated in Munster. Ideally the Kerry sika should be separated from the Kerry Reds to reduce the risk of possible hybridisation in the future. How this could be done realistically i don't know.

tiny-nioclas

And is this a well known problem outside the NPWS circles? one of the deer groups should really be pressing this problem and really pushing for something to be done about it, how would people go about getting something done about this now before its too late? you speak alot of sence NoNameRanger,the protection of the hybrids should be lifted. id imagine extending or making the deer hunting season a month earlier would be a good start though?

Is there any Red deer outside of kerry in munster?