M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

brianc89

I can be supportive of the road, but bring up genuine items of discussion. Winds are changing globally on roads. Wales for example.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-64640215

Bus is good, but no match for rail, especially if we're trying to encourage people out of cars. I'm not gonna keep on about it, cause I fully accept the valid reasons people have mentioned here.

Just don't be surprised if this isn't as straight forward as one might hope.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247696#Comment_120247696

As explained above, in Limerick, Colbert Station isn't anywhere near where the major centers of employment are (Or UL). Even the proposed commuter rail won't solve this. Rail won't get commuters out of their cars in this instance. Buses are way more flexible (and way cheaper) and can actually get people to the centers of employment.

Markcheese

Admitted were not very good at including buses and coaches in our motorway network. So a lot of room for improvement, safe online coach stops could be cheaply included in motorway junction plans ,

Or at the very least consider public transport in planning major infrastructure projects ,

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247369#Comment_120247369

The M8/M24 route option was rejected in phase 1. Suggest you read the documents I linked to or go back over this thread if you want more on the reasons why. My view on it is fourfold:

• the additional 30km will lead to a significant increase in carbon in the medium term
• a relatively small percentage of the traffic is end to end (Cork City to Limerick City) and the M8/M24 route does absolutely nothing for traffic entering/exiting the N20 at intermediate points (e.g. Mallow, Buttervant, Charleville and any traffic originating from west of these)
• nobody to the west/north of Cork city will traipse across the city to join the M8. Ditto in Limerick city. We are after all creatures of habit and an additional 40km is a complete turn off
• the busiest part of the N20 (Mallow Cork) carries traffic that on its own qualifies it for a motorway. NONE of this traffic will go anywhere near the M8 so the existing N20 will become progressively even more dangerous

Taking these four points, the majority of the traffic that currently traverses the N20 will continue on that route in the event that the M8/N24 route is selected. With all of the safety, economic and environmental concerns remaining unresolved. Meanwhile we would spend a large part of the cost of the M20 building an over specified M24 from Cahir to Limerick, dual carriageway bypasses of Mallow, Buttervant and Charleville, with various significant relief/remedial works required elsewhere (Ballybeg Bends, O'Rourke's Cross, New Twopothouse, Waterloo etc)

The M8/M24 route option is dead. Thankfully. Even the M8/R513 route, which would be much more attractive from a user perspective, fails on most of the above points.

And as for the rail options, these are complimentary to the road option, nothing more. RS1 would increase the rail usage by 700 passengers per day, and RS2a or RS2B would increase rail usage by 1,800 per day at seven times the cost of RS1. The key point in both cases is that the additional rail passengers are transferring from existing bus services and there is no reduction in road traffic volume.

(I know this duplicates what others said - I typed it as soon as I saw your post but got distracted and didn't post)

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247596#Comment_120247596

I think so too. Safety of the N20 generally and safety in the towns (HGV traffic volumes especially).

marno21

Government policy currently is as follows:

1. Banning sales of new internal combustion engines and replacing them with zero emissions (at point of use anyway) electric cars.
2. Completely decarbonising the electrical grid

Based on that, won't car journeys in the 2030s/2040s be carbon emission free? So an M20 isn't the evil it's made out to be?

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247647#Comment_120247647

I still think some rail solutions are needed. As the poster before you says, improving Cork-Mallow, and straight-through of Limerick Junction are big deals. I'd heavily advocate Blarney as an "N/M20 P&R" too, personally.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247888#Comment_120247888

Your point is that the M20 "isn't AS BAD as it's made out to be" and that has a good bit of truth in it for sure.

But I don't think cars will be carbon emission free for another 20 years or more after 2030. Plenty of 20 year old ICE engines around, and plenty of weird use-cases that electric engines still aren't quite dealing with, so there will likely be exemptions too.

And then there's the particulate emissions, and urban congestion factors to worry about outside of that, so "cars" aren't going to disappear, but it looks like we're likely planning towards some kind of plateau (maybe a decrease but I doubt it) in car km's despite population growth.

So the M20 just needs to deal with those things (some emissions, some danger of adding to urban congestion and unsustainable settlement patterns). I think it can. Will be interesting to see.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247891#Comment_120247891

The first stage of reopening the Limerick- Foynes railway started. Here is what is going on in the first phase it's costing 105 million.

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/994662/first-phase-of-works-to-restore-limerick-to-foynes-rail-line-to-cost-105milllion.html

Will it cost another 100++ million for the second phase and then you have rolling stock.

Admittedly this is a project for mainly Freight. It's 42km and the existing line was used until about 15-20 years ago.

And yet after all this investment how much freight will ot take off the road network.

As a commuter option will it have 4 each way journey every day. Ennis to Limerick has not much more than that.

Is the demand in Blarney for a similar level of service into Cork city center. Ya it might ick up a few more on the way in. While a student in UCC might benefit if a stop is possible a student in MTU will probably not use it

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248037#Comment_120248037

You'll definitely get a bit in Blarney alright. The Cobh line is really popular, and Blarney itself can expand/grow around the station. I know you're probably thinking mostly of the N/M20 longer-distance vehicles, but consider those more local commuters. Blarney has poor bus connectivity now, and an additional stop in Blackpool/Kilbarry would be transformative. You'd get some Blarney people going to Little Island, some Mallow people going to Blackpool, some Cobh line people going to Blackpool etc. I don't see it as a while elephant at all.

On freight, yes I agree, I don't see where it will go to be honest.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247891#Comment_120247891

Rail improvements are absolutely needed. We have debated this in this thread and in a dedicated thread previously. Putting it briefly, the Cork to Limerick service needs to be a proper Inter City service rather than something that resembles a Percy French song. This can be achieved quickly by:

• Provide dedicated rolling stock to allow a direct service
• Complete of the Cork Line Level Crossings project
• Complete the other planned interventions on the relevant section of the Dublin/Cork line (ballast/sleeper replacement etc)
• Make such alterations as are necessary to Limerick Junction to allow frequent Cork-Limerick services to operate safely and efficiently and without disrupting the Dublin-Cork service
• Double Track Limerick-Limerick Junction

These are relatively low cost interventions and can be completed with a minimum of planning risk or other delays. These can deliver a half hourly service (direct on the hour, Limerick-limerick Junction on the half hour to meet the Cork Dublin train) and a journey time on the direct service of 60/70 mins.

A direct Patrickswell Limerick link looks great on a map and appeals to the nostalgic Choo Choo train brigade. But the cost would be enormous, the risk of planning delays wold be immense, the minimum time for delivery is 10 years and it serves no other purpose in the short/medium term (freight, commuter etc). And the benefits are marginal. The money that this would cost would be far better spent on the Cork-Limerick Junction line to allow high/higher speed running where the expenditure would benefit not just the Cork-Limerick traffic, but also the Cork-Dublin traffic and any other services that use it, e.g. Mallow commuter.

But in the Cork-Limerick context, no matter what improvements are made to the rail service, rail will remain complimentary to road traffic and will not reduce road traffic to any significant degree. The reasons for that are a whole other discussion.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248187#Comment_120248187

rail will remain complimentary to road traffic and will not reduce road traffic to any significant degree. The reasons for that are a whole other discussion.

That's an opinion not a fact. A lot of people would disagree, but as you say, it's another discussion.

I fully agree any resources are best spend on double tracking existing network which has wider benefits as you've outlined.

marno21

Improving Colbert-Kent isn't going to do much either. The primary reason the rail journey is unattractive is that the last mile options to get to where you want to actually get to in both cities is ****.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248316#Comment_120248316

Yep commuter options within both cities is a high priority at this stage. I'd argue that Cork isn't too bad at this stage, it's improving. Limerick is woeful though.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248316#Comment_120248316

Cork has improved, with a couple more bus routes now actually calling in to Kent station, but yes, there needs to be a bus, or multiple buses, waiting when the trains come in. Good transport is all about connections: I used to live in Munich, and my work commute involved a 10-minute walk to the commuter-rail station to get a train most of the way, and then on getting off that train, one of the two buses waiting in front of the station would take me right outside the office where I worked. Trains on their own can’t solve the problem.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247888#Comment_120247888

Yeah , that's if carbon di-oxide were the actual problem ,rather than the buzz word.

The actual problem is cars , the fact that we've built ( and are still building) out society around them , and are pushing further down a "there is no alternative to personal cars "

So some of it is the congestion, some of it is the land use, some of it is low density sprawl that we then live in , which leads to more car use.

I am a car user, I'm just looking at every non city 18 getting a car because mammys and daddies cars are always busy - and I'm looking at road improvements that were done to alleviate local congestion , and 4 or 5 years on its nearly as bad again due to increased volume .. its only going 1 way ..

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250618#Comment_120250618

Ireland is a low density island, with significant rural living, decent incomes and widely dispersed small population centres. Such a place can only revolve around the cars in practical terms. There is scope for public transport and better density in the cities but beyond that it'll always be a haven for cars intrinsically. The low density sprawl is not going to be undone. It's done that way to a certain extent as well because that's how we like it.

The M20 connects two sprawling low density cities with significant suburban industrial development, very low density housing, sprawl, towns in between etc. Not building the M20 will not make people not drive, it'll just mean longer journey times, congested towns and more people getting killed on the road. It won't change behaviour. Neither will putting more trains on.

Which road improvements were done that were nearly as bad 4-5 years later are you talking about?

marno21

5 million euro for this project in 2023. Should see it progress towards ABP (or maybe TPC by the time we get there) rather well this year.a

blarney_boy

Yeah, would love the be able to rely on a train from Blarney into the city for work (username checks out) but . . . there isn't a commuter service at the moment and the station while it might say Blarney on the station sign it's most definitely not 'in the village'

Like Kent Station in Cork it's 1.5km from the action so most locals will probably just hop in the car and commute instead of heading up the hill in the vague hope that they might catch the morning train and that it drops them on the wrong side of Cork city to where they work . . . and on this point I might mention the recent developments in Amsterdam and their fabulous bike parking facilities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_H421RS_Lc

And another bugbear of mine (there are many) is this "but the environment / carbon neutral". I'm just after watching a video for a new city bypass in Germany where the Green party is equal member of the coalition: Ancient woodland (get f*cked), natural sandstone bedrock (f*ck that let's use sh*tloads of concrete) and then we have these Eamon Ryan tulips on here giving about about the environmental cost of the Limerick to Cork motorway?

"they need to put their own economic environmental house in order"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3Ogq0Dp0D0&list=WL&index=27&t=1346s

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250895#Comment_120250895

I'm arguing for the m20 , it's needed , but design in public transport ..

Locally the slip road from whitegate/balinacurra on to the N25 west bound - solved the problem - but created another - I used to be in the traffic now ,I'm living in town and traveling ( by car ) against it ..

ForiegnNational

I'm sorry all, however the debate over route selection for both road and rail is over and items such as Blarney P&R are covered under CMATS.

My issue is there have been no status updates since March last year.

For a project spending €5m this year on planning, they are failing to keep their primary stakeholders, the tax paying citizens, informed of where they are with regards to delivering the schedule of work they are currently allocated funding for.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251432#Comment_120251432

Sorry, there has been multiple updates issued by the project team

https://corklimerick.ie/category/news/

The preferred route corridor (or whatever it has to be called these days) was announced in March and after that announcement work gets started on design and environmental assessment. Those activities are ongoing in the background. The next major announcement will be the completion of the design and environmental assessment stage which will mean a CPO/EIS submission to ABP (and presumably a Motorway Order), which will take place after Cabinet approval of the project.

In the meantime, there will be bits and pieces about the design & enviro eval stage but nothing massive. How long this will take is anyone's guess given the amount of red tape involved and the dynamic nature of the red tape but the allocation of 5 million euro this year means it'll be a productive year for the project.

I should note that according to TII's allocations in 2022, this project is #2 on the priority list behind projects already at construction stage (which is the N5 in Mayo, Macroom bypass, Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge, Moycullen, Listowel, Dunkettle). 11m funding between 2022 and 2023 will see a lot of the design & EIS stuff well advanced.

gooseman12

I have a general query regarding the intention to overlay a motorway onto an existing road between Blarney and somewhere around existing the Burnfort junction.

I pretty sure, on toll roads in particular, there is a need to provide an alternative route for people who don't wish to use the road. But is there any requirement to provide alternative routes in other cases, say for instance L drivers who cannot use M roads? Or rerouting in case of a major accident?

Why I'm asking is, the old cork road between Rathduff and Blackpool can still be used as an alternative route, but between Burnfort and Rathduff there really isn't any great route to take to get between the two. The M road is not only being overlayed on the existing road, it is also on top of the old old road.

I don't recall any similar instances arising with any other M routes, maybe I'm wrong on this. Just an interesting curiosity and so said I'd ask the question.

Cookiemunster

It's not toll roads that need alternative routes, it's motorways. If there is no alternative route to the current N20 when it's upgraded then one will be built as part of the project.

KrisW1001

Like the other approaches to Cork city, the southern end of N20 will probably end up looking like a motorway, and having a motorway speed limit, without actually being under motorway restrictions.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120252172#Comment_120252172

AFAIK it running along the section from Patrickswell to beyond croom and a new ordinary road will run parallel to it

gooseman12

I suppose it is an option to run with a motorway standard n20 as far as Burnfort, the issue for me with that would be cyclists, tractors and all that sort of slow moving heavy machinery we see regularly causing talibacks on the n40 and the ballincollig bypass. It is a solution but not a great one.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120258225#Comment_120258225

The design team have already shown interest in providing a dedicated "side route" in consultations. They're not missing this detail thankfully

pigtown

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/1041879/major-update-issued-on-planned-limerick-to-cork-motorway.html

Would it be an exaggeration to describe this as an evolution in the motorway concept in Ireland?

P&R at all junctions and walking/cycling routes in parallel?

It's a pity this approach isn't being taken on the N24.

pajoguy

Be interesting to see where the Junction at Croom will be. It was 4 km north of Croom in the previous version however that was to cater for a southern bypass of Adare.

Also no mention of an interchange west of O'Rourkes Cross?