MRSA

mehfesto2

Just want to start a thread on MRSA. It's an area that interests me a lot and I'd lke to hear other people's view on it.

I was reading another thread on this foum where somebody described it as a disease. I think it's amazing how uneducated some people are on the topic, yet it continues to scare the mass public in the media on a near weekly basis.

I am particularly amazed by Families Against MRSA. I continually read their releases to the press and how they blame the spread of it on staff workers, particularly doctors and nurses, but never seem to find fault with the general public during visiting hours. I don't think it's a problem that can be attributed to only hospital workers. Sure look at our old hospital buildings like the Mater. They're not made to be easily cleaned. They still have skirting boards! How can you clean that completely every 12 hours?

In recent times, I have read how a 78 year old woman with cancer and COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease) 'died of MRSA'. In my opinion, the MRSA was the least of her problems. In these cases, the families often state there's nothing been done to combat MRSA. What can you do to combat a bug that's resistent to Vancomycin?! Unless you screen every person entering the hospital - and I don't mean just the patients, this isn't something that isn't going anywhere soon. But why do we make our hospital workers shoulder the blame?

TPD

What the fudge is MRSA?

tallaght01

You can die of MRSA. It can, in some people who can't shake it, be a kinda chronic "disease".

It can be passed around by staff not washing their hands.

BUT...and this is the point that the HSE and government neglect to mention when they're blaming doctors and nurses for the problem......the main risk for MRSA is overcrowded hospitals.

Irish hospitals were never meant to have as many patients as they do. You put that many sick people in a crowded environment, and you're gonna get outbreaks.

BUt it's easier to say the docs and nurses go round scratching their arses and then do surgery without washing their hands.

antodeco

TPD wrote: »

What the fudge is MRSA?

MR T's wife.

SimpleSam06

Its a big growth area among the ambulance chasing community.

Glowing

The Dutch have the right idea ....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3856379.stm

Jeapy

Its methicillin resistant, not vancomycin!

ronnie3585

Rory Gallagher died from MRSA.

ergonomics

I worked in a nursing home where 3 residents had MRSA. I don't know a lot about the disease but I do know dust is one of the places that it 'grows' so the MRSA rooms had to be cleaned really really well. Yet despite this the families of the residents always visited at the same time everyday, when we were cleaning. They would never come earlier or later. The also continuously brought in gifts/food so the rooms were extremely cluttered and we could never clean them properly. The families need a bit of cop on.

Zillah

mehfesto2 wrote: »

I was reading another thread on this foum where somebody described it as a disease. I think it's amazing how uneducated some people are on the topic, yet it continues to scare the mass public in the media on a near weekly basis.

Bacterial infections aren't considered diseases anymore? What the hell are you talking about?

Carsinian Thau

Jeapy wrote: »

Its methicillin resistant, not vancomycin!

Give it time.

Although iirc, there is another antiobiotic that will work against VRSA. Might begin with an 'E'.

Supercell

How come this bug only exists in hospitals?
I mean..if you cant catch it in public..how did it get into the hospital in the first place and how come its in all of them it seems?

mehfesto2

Jeapy wrote: »

Its methicillin resistant, not vancomycin!

There have been reduced effects of Vanc on S. Aures noted since 1996.
In 2007 - an MRSA strand was found to be Vancomycin resistant in Canada.

link
Vanc is deemed to be stronger that Methicillin. It means there's little medicial options available now that it's essentially grown resistant to our strongest treatments!

Essentially, if you're sick enough to die from MRSA you weren't in a good way anyway. Blaming the people that tried to help you seems a bit vicious and pointless. Apologies about the 'disease' statement, though!

sam34

Supercell wrote: »

How come this bug only exists in hospitals?
I mean..if you cant catch it in public..how did it get into the hospital in the first place and how come its in all of them it seems?

some people in general public are carriers of mrsa, not sure of exact stats, think its 10 to 15% but that could be wrong. anyway, these people carry it for example on their skin or up their noses (guess how it got there ). its not problematic unless your immune system is in a bad way or you have an open wound.
thats how it gets into hospitals...visitors, staff and the patients themselves

Archeron

mehfesto2 wrote: »

I continually read their releases to the press and how they blame the spread of it on staff workers, particularly doctors and nurses, but never seem to find fault with the general public during visiting hours. I don't think it's a problem that can be attributed to only hospital workers.

When people became more educated about it, the majority complied with any measures put in place such as hand washing and that mist spray disinfectant for their hands. The vast majority of people entering a hospital for visiting will indeed NOT be knowledgeable on the ins and outs of medicine and illness, but blaming them on being the ones spreading it is just a cop out on behalf of those hospitals where basic hygiene is seriously neglected.

mehfesto2 wrote: »

Sure look at our old hospital buildings like the Mater. They're not made to be easily cleaned. They still have skirting boards! How can you clean that completely every 12 hours?

I sometimes imagine a world where hospital services are provided in clean, adequate buildings, but I suppose that's just a dream.... Still, how can you clean that completely every 12 hours? By hiring round the clock teams of cleaners who keep the place up to scratch. I see it in Connolly hospital in Blanch, but its quite the opposite elsewhere. ( I dont know the hours of the cleaning staff in Blanch, but they are alwaus around whenever I am there, and when they are there, they are very efficient and busy as ants)

mehfesto2 wrote: »

But why do we make our hospital workers shoulder the blame?

I dont think we do. In some scenarios we do, but that is usually because there is good reason. There are many other things that people blame too, including old unfit buildings as you mentioned. It is a combination of things. However, many people in Ireland have seen blatant disregard for basic hygiene on occasions in medical services here, so its to be expected that people may think its to blame when infections like MRSA become more common.

Gaspode

Supercell wrote: »

How come this bug only exists in hospitals?
I mean..if you cant catch it in public..how did it get into the hospital in the first place and how come its in all of them it seems?

The MRSA is a strain of the bacterium Staphylococcus aureus (SA) that has become immune a vast number of anticiotics, including what was once considered the last defence against it, Methicillin, hence become methicilin resistant (MR)
We all carry SA on us all of the time, but in general not the MR type. The MR strains originated in hospitals because it is that environment that antibiotics are in widespread use and bacteria very quickly become immune to antibiotics when exposed to low doses of them over long periods. Hospital workers can then pick up these strains and pass them to patients and/or visitors.

Its a cop-out to say its not the fault of staff - the problem was allowed to develop despite warnings many years ago.
I spent a long spell in the Mater a few years ago, and it was absolutley filthy and I felt lucky to get out of there alive - MRSA worried more than the illness that got me in there in the first place! THe hospital management simply wouldnt spend the money to clean and/or upgrade it.

I agree with a previous poster the JCM hospital have a good cleaning system in place - I was in there for several hours on saturday night and the cleaners were on the go all night, certainly up to 5 am when I was leaving.

I think hospitals are beginning to cop on and start to do something about it, but they've their work cut out, once MRSA gets a hold its virtually impossible to get rid of.

mehfesto2

I worked in Blanch for a bit and will agree that their cleaning staff are incredible and work amazing hours. I believe they work 20 hours (not in shifts obviously!), but I could be mistaken. They were definately there before 5am and after 8pm at the very least.

But it is also a great building in itself. No wooden structures, high ceilings or skirting boards that become infested. It's all state-of-the-art and well kitted out with alcohol gels etc. I know that one ward which had the 'worst MRSA record' there, had only caused 2 cases of MRSA in 12 months. Considering the turnover of patients there, I consider that to be pretty impressive!

Anyway, Im rambling now.

Jeapy

deswalsh wrote: »

The MRSA is a strain of the bacterium Staphylococcus aureus (SA) that has become immune a vast number of anticiotics, including what was once considered the last defence against it, Methicillin, hence become methicilin resistant (MR)
We all carry SA on us all of the time, but in general not the MR type. The MR strains originated in hospitals because it is that environment that antibiotics are in widespread use and bacteria very quickly become immune to antibiotics when exposed to low doses of them over long periods. Hospital workers can then pick up these strains and pass them to patients and/or visitors.

Not all of us carry Staph. aureus. Roughly 10% of people carry it as "normal flora" and, as above, these are in general not the methicillin resistant type. Im pretty certain of this, because I know I don't carry it! Harmless Staph. albus for me only!

Gaspode

Jeapy wrote: »

Not all of us carry Staph. aureus. Roughly 10% of people carry it as "normal flora" and, as above, these are in general not the methicillin resistant type. Im pretty certain of this, because I know I don't carry it! Harmless Staph. albus for me only!

I suppose I should have said 'most of us' rather than all of us.
Getting into semantics here, but I'd say 10% is way off - more like 60-70% carry it.
Staph albus is now called staph epidermidis is it not..?

Have a look around now, all the AH people are starting to nod off, thisi s starting to sound like work!!

ronbyrne2005

I agree to an extent with OP. You hear these types of comments texted into radio shows by very ignorant and naive people, examples include " We had no MRSA when the nurses where cleaning the wards" and similar non scientifically based opinions on subject. It is unfortunate when already very sick(and generally old) people get these diseases but to put majority of blame for a very sick individuals death on MRSA is scaremongering and playing the blame game and victim card. We hear very little about any young people dying of this MRSA as obviously it in itself is not generally life threatening for generally healthy people. Maybe especially sick people should be put in special isolation wards away from general population but not an ICU.
Someone said massively increase spending on cleaning but there is only gonna be limited resources going forward in the HSE and for the cost of extra cleaning maybe a few dozen lives will be saved per year but for same money extra tauma doctors or oncologists could save hundreds of lives?
Basically i agree the likes of "families against MRSA" are overly simplistic and sensationalist in their analysis of the problem.

Are "Families against MRSA" gonna ban MRSA or beat it up? Almost as stupid a title as "War on Terror". Same people would be moaning about taxes if they were raised to fund extra hygiene measures. Health rationing is gonna be a big issue in years to come as our population ages and medicine becomes more and more expensive.
Another thing, that heart surgeon Maurice Nelligan was on radio moaning that the health service is way underfunded but we spend more per capita (controlled for population age) than most of best health systems in world. More money wont make it better, better organisation/efficiency and management will.

Capt'n Midnight

Yeah the Dutch have the right idea.

You need maybe 10-15% of beds free so you can clean areas properly and so you don't have continually "hot beds"

ChewChew

mehfesto2 wrote: »

I worked in Blanch for a bit and will agree that their cleaning staff are incredible and work amazing hours. I believe they work 20 hours (not in shifts obviously!), but I could be mistaken. They were definately there before 5am and after 8pm at the very least.

But it is also a great building in itself. No wooden structures, high ceilings or skirting boards that become infested. It's all state-of-the-art and well kitted out with alcohol gels etc. I know that one ward which had the 'worst MRSA record' there, had only caused 2 cases of MRSA in 12 months. Considering the turnover of patients there, I consider that to be pretty impressive!

Anyway, Im rambling now.

I'm still over there andhave to say, the staff are fantastic. always aound and can always be found. The new, refurbished building is amazing and is really up to standard.

Archeron wrote: »

I see it in Connolly hospital in Blanch, but its quite the opposite elsewhere. ( I dont know the hours of the cleaning staff in Blanch, but they are alwaus around whenever I am there, and when they are there, they are very efficient and busy as ants)

ever since the new hospital was built it has really come up to standard. I also think the fact that the cleaning is done by contractors it has to be up to standard so it is to their benefit that they are busy busy busy

bluedolphin

I grow SA in my lungs permanently but grew MRSA for the best part of a year about two years ago. Somehow I managed to get rid of it myself which was a bit crazy. There's a lot of media hype and scaremongering about the whole MRSA thing.
Yes, it is serious but as a previous poster mentioned a lot of people grow SA anyway which can develop into MRSA but it only becomes harmful in certain areas.
People get antibiotics for anything these days but the biggest problem is that most people don't finish the course/don't take them according to the prescription which basically messes up the whole thing and leads to bacterial resistance.

sam34

bluedolphin wrote: »

People get antibiotics for anything these days but the biggest problem is that most people don't finish the course/don't take them according to the prescription which basically messes up the whole thing and leads to bacterial resistance.

+1
its a huge problem when people go to a gp demanding antibiotics for a cold, which is most likely viral and thus will not respond to antibiotics, and will insist on getting the script. if they dont get it , they go off complaining that the doctor is useless, doesnt know what theyre doing etc. if they do get the script, the cold clears up within 5 or so days, which it would have done without the antibiotics, but this reinforces the patients belief that the antibiotics worked. meanwhile, the little bugs are developing more and more resistance...

tallaght01

Spot on, sam34.

It's made worse by the fact that you pay to see your GP here. It's a private service. And people do literally go there expecting a medicine. The amount of people who complain to me when their GP refuses to give them antibiotics. They think they're the worst shipman-esque doctors in the world.

I'm constantly refusing to give parents antibiotics for their kids. They often go flipper over it, and I get a lot of abuse. But, I'm in the public sector, so it's easier for me to tell them to go to the front desk and get a refund if they're not happy with the service.

BUt I have friends who are GPs and they all tell me that they just can't handle the pressure of contantly fighting with patients, so they just give them antibiotics.

Capt'n Midnight

bluedolphin wrote: »

People get antibiotics for anything these days but the biggest problem is that most people don't finish the course/don't take them according to the prescription which basically messes up the whole thing and leads to bacterial resistance.

Penecillin used to be a wonder drug. Guinea pigs are allergic to it , as are some humans.

yeah I'd like to see antibiotics as a slow release implant or have people come back to take the tablets , or if there was some test that could detect antibiotics and metabolised products so we could confirm that the full course was taken, if someone doesn't pass the test at the end then they aren't allowed to take tablets by themselves. There are other diseased like TB out there waiting in the wings, look at the number of sanitorums still around we end up there again , sooner then we'd like

I've been given anitbiotics for the flu before, well I was a bit chesty, but they were worse than the flu so I can understand why people might not want to finish the course, but the medical profession should make it quite clear that finishing a course is like immumisation the benefit if not just for the person, but for the whole community.

Carsinian Thau

tallaght01 wrote: »

BUt I have friends who are GPs and they all tell me that they just can't handle the pressure of contantly fighting with patients, so they just give them antibiotics.

While I don't agree with this, I can completely understand it.

One of many reason I don't intend to be a GP.

tallaght01

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

While I don't agree with this, I can completely understand it.

One of many reason I don't intend to be a GP.

I don't think they agree with it. But when it's the middle of winter and almost every single patient has a viral infection but is demanding antibiotics "because it's gone to my chest" or whatever then it just becomes overwhelming. One patient every 10 minutes for a whole day is a LOT of arguments to get into.

keith_d99

I lost my father a week ago today aged 61 from a MRSA related disease - if not MRSA itself - we are awaiting results of the autopsy.

Dad suffered from Rhematoid Arthritis - and went to a certain hospital for a hip replacement operation approx 8 years ago. He remembers waking up in the operating theatre - and said it was filthy - blood everywhere. The same hospital had rats in the operating theatre around the same time. There are a lot of MRSA cases relating to this particular hospital from the same time period.

We have had a long battle with the illness and the HSE in the last number of years. Dad never got rid of it. The doctors never told us for a while what it was - an "infection" they said for a long time. The never told us it would lead to several episodes of Septecemia, that it would result in him being disabled, bed-bound for his last years.
His worst bout came about 3 years ago - he complained of his arm being numb. After a MRI they realised that there was something touching on his spinal cord - they operated on him - and there was a matter growing inside him (like leather) that was wrapped around his spinal cord. He was never right physically after that. The matter was sent to a lab - and tested positive for MRSA.

I have read through the posts above and if I can just say from our experience:

- The HSE/Government have covered up MRSA for years. The facts are a lot worse than the stats. Rather than write the facts in people's medical file - they put a big yellow MRSA sticker on the file. Micheal Noonan wrote a report back in 1984 stating that the goverment needed to act on this - this report was ignored.

- MRSA is not overhyped - it is everywhere - if you walk past a room in a hospital and you see a sign "Please report to nurse before entering" - you can be fairly sure that the patient inside has MRSA. Now count the signs you see.

- Everybody needs to educated on what it is - including hospital staff themselves - hygiene helps stop the spread.

- Dad has been in shared rooms with people with open wounds. We have had to ask the hospitals to put him in iscolation for the sake of the other patients.

- If you are healthy yes you can beat it - your immune system can beat it

- Overcrowding certainly doesn't help the cause

- It is a disease - sure it's usually accompanied by some other health problem. Dad never got rid of it. He had arthritis - that didn't kill him - MRSA did. MRSA made his life a misery - he would have suffered less with cancer.

- There are a lot more people dying from MRSA than people know - even families themselves do not know.

- Over-prescibing of anti-biotics have led to MRSA - the Irish mentality of "I have paid €50 to see this doctor the least I should get is an anti-biotic" - this doesn't help.

I wouldn't wish anybody to suffer the way dad did. My advice to anybody who is admitted into hospital - to shout if things don't look/feel right. If the place is filthy - demand that it is cleaned. If a doctor/nurse is not wearing a pair of new gloves when they come to your bed - demand that he/she does. One thing you will find with doctors is that they don't "appreciate" being questioned - question them - they are getting paid enough to answer your questions - they are not above it. A hospital has a legal "duty of care" to take care of you.

R.I.P. Dad - your pain is finally at an end!
Keith.