Trapping a Resisting Opponent

Martin25

Here is a response from Hock Hocheim the noted USA Instructor.
Trappinig a resisting opponent by Hock Hockheim
Here is a response by Hock a noted USA Instructor
"First we have to decide/define what "trapping" is"?

Is trapping what you see at Juan Willy's Wing Chun School on 33rd street? Or, is trapping simply battling the arms and/or grabbing the arms of an opponent?

Much of the arguments and disagreements about "does or doesn't trapping work," is really about the definitions and schools of training. Or, when systems base their strategies too much on any one thing or trick. Which is really common. Guns solve all problems. Pressure points solve all problems. Just learn jointlocks as a core. One punch/one kill solves all problems. Trapping is the core problem solver, that all?

If trapping it ducking and dodging a knife? Slapping it aside? Stopping it? If trapping is blocking a slash or capturing the weapon-bearing limb? Then that kind of so-called " trapping" has worked, does work and will work.

Lets face it, Aren't so many fights at or within arms length? This so-called "trapping range?" When Chuck Liddell slaps an arm aside in the UFC ring. Isn't he in essence trapping by somebody's definition? When a jujitsu guy moves in, clears some arms and get his hands gripped to throw someone...hasn't he just done some kind of "trapping" to do it?

A lot looks like trapping and actually is.

I teach sets of "Invading hands" or invading sticks, and Invading knives. You know what? It looks a lot like trapping hands with working inside and outside the arms with palm side hits, back of the hand hits, forearms, and grabs, then extrapolating that onto knives, sticks and guns. Once I called it Invading Hands, NO ONE,ANYWHERE on the planet has ever raised the "trapping hand" questions, doubts and debates. Its like a mind trick. Like pre-conceived notions. Since I do not raise the official flag of "Trapping Hands" yet I still do limb manipulations and limb catching, no one notices or cares. Plus, I have reversed engineered everything anyway, starting at the fight and working backwards, so things look like a combat scenario that works very quickly, short circuiting the traditional look of trapping. Stun first, then trick stuff.

The four Ps...pinning (or catching), passing, pulling or pushing the opponents limbs to clear a path to a better target.

What is trapping exactly? Make a list. Then watch the UFC and make a list of how many times two knuckleheads trying to kill each other do trapping things in the fight. Then you see a quick slap block? Well, thats a pak soa. When someone grabs an arm and pulls it...thats a lop sao....and so on... It won't look like two guys, standing two feet apart in mirrored, pretty stances in black silk pajamas. But the arm contacts are the same.


AND WARNING! WARNING!

Don't fall for the Myth of the First Event. That means evaluating a fighting tactic on "can it be done the first step, first thing" of any fight. Just because you cannot do a tactic against Bruce Lee with three cups of coffee right out, right away, first thing, doesn't mean it can't work some time and its not worthy to know as a 3rd of 6th event technique.

I mean what if the first event of a fight is me breaking a chair over your head? Then I will perform all kinds of Juan Willy trapping on you like a bad Chinese Movie and even tie your shoe laces together. Think about it. Fully resistant changes. Here's we we talk about fully resisiting and all this misleading and misconceptions about the "pressure testing/fully resistant" thing. Young people today like to toss this around. They like to "pressure test" things and think they are reality fighters revolutionaries?

My smart-ass answer to them is "okay, lets pressure test that arm bar. Sure. But first, lets start with me breaking your nose flat and then breaking the third rib on your left side." NOW lets pressure test this armbar. Ready? BANG! Welcome to the Twight Zone, mother-****er.

You see, all my "trick ****" starts working after a solid, ****ing hook punch to their jaw. Maybe a few, Huh? Fully resistant...changes...doesn't it? Everything has its place. And I don't need to see a Utube film to figure this out. In all this cool, pressure test **** these kids do, no one gets to break a nose in class and really pressure test a technique, can they? If they think they are doing real fight research? They are fools. Falling for this is a doctrine mistake. Because everythign has its point in time. Fighting is timing...in this regard.

That is the "diminished fighter theory" and "the myth of the first event." two vital, key peices that answer so many fighting questions.

But trapping alone does not work as a doctrine and trapping should not be the core, center piece doctrine of a fighting system. Period. The doctrine needs more diversity. This is what I meant by school doctrine back in the first paragraph of this piece. The skill of pinning, pasing, pulling or pushing the limbs is but a small part of a bigger picture.

You know, handcuffing is a form of trapping. This definition thing again. And every day fully resistant people get handcuffed. AFTER they have been diminished. Nowadays we diminish them with ray guns and spray cans the size of magic markers. We didn't have all that Star trek **** when I started. We had to clobber them first, trap their arms and then cuff em'. And it looked like a rodeo at times, but inside it moves often looked like a bit of - what someone would describe as - trapping.

Better to know it than not, because it is everywhere.

Hock
(and by the way. This kind of talk is not new. It is old school. It was fighting as I was taught decades ago in old Karate and Police Judo. I think kid karate came along - changed and tampered the violence, and then all these kids grew up seeing the gaps. They make up stuff like pressure testing and so forth, and they re-invented the original wheel)


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Have you ever trained

spiral

seriously whats the point of your post and no im not trying to trap you into giving me a reasonable answer:pac:

Martin25

Seriously ,you are joking? Please read and think about the post by Hock.

Trapping exists in many forms and martial arts.
For example when we do Kali, JKD and grappling we trap,immoblise,lock, arms ,legs,head, neck, body.
BJJ people seem to do trapping a lot, why do you make such a big thing about it?

Martin25

The UFC has lots of trapping its just that it happens so fast and seamlessly as part of a bigger event that its generally unnoticed.

For example crashing the range and clearing a path to a better target may involve,pinning,pushing,pulling,passing ,crushing,redirecting for a lock or choke or to ground and pound.

DON'T over emphasise it! or it becomes too important.
Next time that you are in a heavy sparring match try a complex trapping move and you will probably get a big punch or blow to the head with a stick! It is a means to an end.

waterford mma

Martin25 wrote: »

Here is a response from Hock Hocheim the noted USA Instructor.


What is trapping exactly? Make a list. Then watch the UFC and make a list of how many times two knuckleheads trying to kill each other do trapping things in the fight. Then you see a quick slap block? Well, thats a pak soa. When someone grabs an arm and pulls it...thats a lop sao....and so on

educated post :rolleyes:

dlofnep

Martin25 wrote: »

My smart-ass answer to them is "okay, lets pressure test that arm bar. Sure. But first, lets start with me breaking your nose flat and then breaking the third rib on your left side." NOW lets pressure test this armbar. Ready? BANG! Welcome to the Twight Zone, mother-****er.

Wow. Was there a point here? I don't get what he's trying to say.

spiral

Martin not trying to be smart but if everyone as you say already does it including the knuckleheads and BJJers and dont make a big thing about it then why bother bringing it up at all ?
I dont know anything about Hock Hocheim but that article is ridiculous

Martin25

I was asked if trapping worked?
The post by Hock is very interesting,however it my be too much for some. My advice is to read it again and try to think about it a bit more.

spiral

you were also asked to show a video of someone using it in a non compliant way. Surely if it works you can do that even if you have to video it in your own class ?


His post is definitely too much for me. its full of JKD ? terminology lop sao, pak sao , invading hands, 4 p's , 3rd of 6th event technique with little or no explanation of these techniques or terms ?

Fighting/wrestling/grappling/boxing is pretty straightforward Martin why complicate it like this ?

Then he (hock) goes on to say that unless you break someones nose or rib you are not in a sufficiently non compliant senario to see if your techniques work

MY advice to you Martin is to explain yourself in plain english or with a video what you are talking about and not rely on some badly written article from whoever.
If you think it works explain it or demonstrate it.

dlofnep

Why did he called mixed martial artists "knuckleheads"?

SorGan

dlofnep wrote: »

Why did he called mixed martial artists "knuckleheads"?

jealous of their untrained trapping ability's?:)

dlofnep

Probably.

It was the most worthless article I've read in a long time. And I've read some worthless articles!

Martin25

Ah well ther you go you can't please all the people

spiral

Or any of them maybe ?

waterford mma

spiral wrote: »

Or any of them maybe ?

lol

Scramble

What strikes me about Hock's article is that if trapping is read as so general a term as to include things like armdrags and overhooks in BJJ and wrestling then yes, trapping works.

The thing is, though, if you're going to start calling any wrestling which involves isolating or restricting an arm trapping then at the end of the day you'd still get good at it by doing actual wrestling as opposed to the type of compliant trapping (in the more usual sense of the word) drills that you see in some arts.

Mikel

Good post that, it's not trapping you see them do it's wrestling

Martin25

Arnold heard about the thread on trapping and sent me this picture asking if he looked ready...can you please straighten him out? I mean, don't you have some sway with him? Is he off his meds?
Is the rat dog on his head alive? Is that how he carries him around...or is that a dead one that he wears to keep the tin in his head warm?




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Re: Trapping against a resisting opponent?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2008, 06:27:28 PM »
Quote That is Rat Dog atop his head...his dog's favorite place to travel, especially when Arnold is driving. He has been known to let the dog steer the car on the open interstates.

I will try to have a word with him, but it hasn't helped much before.

Hock
Report to moderator Logged

dlofnep

I'm lost?

SorGan

a lot of sidesteping around the question of training against resistance.

Martin25

Yes we train against resistance.
I will try to get some clips.
Chris my video man is off for a while as his wife just had a new baby.

SorGan

cool..less confused now:)

Martin25

No Problem

dlofnep

Do you agree with his labelling of Mixed martial artists as knuckleheads?

spiral

Martin most peoples mobiles can take a video that you could post up.

Martin25

I think that he was probably joking a little there.
I still don't know what the big deal is about the trapping.
Its just a part of our curriculum along with lots of other techniques,punching ,kicking ,energy drills,long ,middle and short range stuff.
If a person does not like trapping then don't do it.

Martin25

Resisting Opponent
Of course you are correct.
We all need to fight hard in many bouts.
I was fighting full contact fights in 1976, which is probably before some of you were born. These were all out fights with little protection sometimes a groin guard and sometimes a gumshield and to tell you the truth anyone who trained with us at the time was involved in some of the most violent fighting I have ever participated in.
You talk about a resisting opponent, try getting kicked in the head full force by a 220 pound brown belt and being knocked clean out for a few minutes, getting 4 teeth kicked out and not being able to remember my own name . I lay in bed for 2 days and could not go to work.
Does this sound like my opponent was resisting? You bet he was!
This was my introduction to a resisting opponent what was yours ?
Some of you seem to think that you have cornered the market or have invented "resisting" you have not.

Martin25

Burt Richardson is a well respected Instructor with a JKD Concepts background.
I used to do most of the stuff on his dvd clip and occasionally do some of it as its kinda fun to do.

waterford mma

Tim_Murphy

I used to do most of the stuff on his dvd clip and occasionally do some of it as its kinda fun to do.

Most of it seemed to be standard enough sparring, bar the sparring with weapons, wouldn't that be normal enough stuff for any club to be doing?

As for the article at the start of the thread, if by trapping people mean all kinds of arm drags etc, then yes, you see them working all the time. But I remain to be convinced that the trapping drills as shown in the videos on the other thread would be any good at improving a persons arm drag. To be honest, I reminds me of people talking about the 'applications' of their kata movements.

Judomad

conpletely lost from what this fella is saying, and the whole knucklehead head thing towards all MMA competitors is a completely uneducated comment.

i hate morons who say things like that when they are just saying it because the sport looks rough or whatever but it really gets under my skin the fact that hes probably an armchair king or keyboard warrior just looking to pick arguements with people but anyway leave him be.............troll!!!!!!!!!!

dlofnep

I agree - There was no structure to the original post and I'm not exactly sure what the point of it all is?

Dragan

From reading this thread we now seem to be at the point where "trapping" as a term can mean anything?

t-ha

Dragan wrote: »

From reading this thread we now seem to be at the point where "trapping" as a term can mean anything?

Ah ha, you fell for it. He trapped you! You just got totally tr4pp3d!

I'm gonna go trap a sandwich...

HammerHeadGym

Martin25 wrote: »

I was fighting full contact fights in 1976, which is probably before some of you were born. These were all out fights with little protection sometimes a groin guard and sometimes a gumshield and to tell you the truth anyone who trained with us at the time was involved in some of the most violent fighting I have ever participated in.

Fair play, do you train like this now? Does anyone in your club go this hard these days?

Martin25 wrote: »

You talk about a resisting opponent, try getting kicked in the head full force by a 220 pound brown belt and being knocked clean out for a few minutes, getting 4 teeth kicked out and not being able to remember my own name.

Does this level of resistance persist in your school today? You guys must be awesome at competions if you train that hard. Although it sounds like one of those schools where some big fat dude with a bit of training beats lumps out of the new lads to condition them. But I'm sure it wasn't like that.

Martin25 wrote: »

This was my introduction to a resisting opponent what was yours ?

Truth be told I only had two teeth knocked out, but my daddy can lift up a house!!

Martin25

I try to screen out that type of bully. Yes many of the students can handle themselves pretty well. Many have done well in the street and in competition.

mikeruurds

This should have been blogged tbh.

waterford mma

Martin25 wrote: »

Many have done well in the street

:rolleyes:

Martin25

OK, When they have been the subject of an attack by a street thug they have been able to defend themselves.