Do you go to the pub or places with alcohol

irishconvert

Salam Brothers and Sisters,

Just wondering if many of you have a problem going to the pub (not drinking alcohol obviously!). Many of my friends are non-Muslim and meeting in the pub is the norm. I don't have a problem with it and don't have any temptation to drink. I am used to being in pubs as I am Irish born and used to drink before I reverted. What are your opinions on this?

wes

Well, I have never drank, but I have no issues with going to the pub, with friends. Its one of the main ways people socialize in Ireland, so its sorta hard to avoid.

mehfesto2

Can I ask why it is not peritted to drink alcohol?

I understand that Buddhists do not drink because they wish to keep a 'clear mind and never lose control', to put in simple words. Is this similar to the Islam view on the subject at all?

hivizman

mehfesto2 wrote: »

Can I ask why it is not peritted to drink alcohol?

I understand that Buddhists do not drink because they wish to keep a 'clear mind and never lose control', to put in simple words. Is this similar to the Islam view on the subject at all?

It's ironic that our word "alcohol" is derived from the arabic "al-koh'l", which literally refers to the black powder stibium that was used as a form of eye-shadow and more metaphorically for fermented drinks that, taken to excess, left the drinker's eyes looking as if they had been using too much koh'l.

Apparently, in early 7th century Arabia, heavy drinking was common, and was associated with the same sorts of problems (including violent behaviour both outside and inside the home) as heavy drinking is still connected with.

The first verse (chronologically in terms of when it was revealed) in the Qur'an about alcohol is in Surah An-Nahl 16:67 (quoted from Muhammad Asad's translation):

And [We grant you nourishment] from the fruit of date-palms and vines: from it you derive intoxicants as well as wholesome sustenance - in this, behold, there is a message indeed for people who use their reason!

In the context of the previous verses, this could be understood as relating to God's providence (the previous verses discuss water and milk), but there is perhaps a hint that not everything that comes from nature is necessarily desirable. Certainly it seems that some of the early Muslims saw this verse as at least raising doubts about the desirability of alcoholic drinks.

The next verse (in chronological terms) to be revealed was in Surah Al-Baqarah 2:219:

They will ask thee [i.e., the Prophet Muhammad] about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring."

The word used for intoxicant is khamr, which strictly means fermented date juice, but is sometimes translated more generally as "wine", and extended to other alcoholic drinks. Indeed, by the time of the final revelation, which many scholars consider has abrogated or cancelled the previous two verses, khamr is taken to apply to any substance that has the effect of dulling the intellect, including drugs.

The final verse to be revealed occurs in Surah Al-Maa'idah 5:90-91:

O you who have attained to faith! Intoxicants, and games of chance, and idolatrous practices [lit. "stones"], and the divining of the future [lit. "divining-arrows"] are but a loathsome evil of Satan's doing: shun it, then, so that you might attain to a happy state! By means of intoxicants and games of chance Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not, then, desist?

So there is a clear Qur'anic prohibition on consuming alcohol, and this extends to the production and selling of alcohol. Shari'ah-compliant investment funds normally refuse to invest in companies in the drinks industry, but in practice they have to make compromises where businesses are involved in selling or supplying alcoholic drinks as part of their main activities (for example, an airline that serves drinks as part of in-flight meals).

As is normally the case, of course, practice in predominantly Muslim countries doesn't always live up to theory - I remember reading about an American who was worried that he was becoming an alcoholic, so he moved to Saudi Arabia in the expectation that this would be about the last place in the world where alcohol was available, only to find that he was actually drinking more there than back in the States.

Also, although many scholars consider that the prohibition of alcohol applies to other drugs, some scholars disagree, and would read the verses more literally. So drugs such as hashish were considered acceptable by some even though alcohol would be avoided.

To sum up, alcohol is clearly banned by the Qur'an. This ban is justified in verse 5:91, quoted above, because of the tendency of drinking to lead to conflict and take people away from God.

tej

Is music also prohibited in Islam?

hivizman

tej wrote: »

Is music also prohibited in Islam?

There was a long discussion of this before I joined this forum, which can be linked to here.

The_new_mr, one of the moderators on this forum, recently provided a summary of the position, which I take the liberty of quoting below:

There are three main opinions in Islam. One is that music is completely forbidden. Another is that some kinds of music (drums) and singing are okay and the third is that all kinds of music are okay. In the second and third opinions, the content of the music/singing has the potential to be forbidden or permissable so its content is important.

I'm of the third opinion and believe that any kind of instrument is okay just as long as the content is okay as well.

And God knows best.

This quote comes from a more recent thread on Music and Islam in this forum. In this thread, I refer to a long statement by one of the leading living scholars of Islam, Shaykh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, which can be found here. This basically supports The_new_mr's third opinion. The Shaykh notes in particular:

Singing should not be accompanied with something that is prohibited such as alcohol, nakedness, mixing of men with women that is common in pubs and nightclubs, etc.

So he probably wouldn't approve of Muslims going to the pub.

mehfesto2

Thank you Hizivman.
I'm enjoying reading this forum. I'm learning lots - mostly thanks to yourself!
It is very interesting to see how many millions of other people live their lives.

You said the practice doesn't always live up to the theory (which could be said about any religion), and I would imagine there are some Muslims who do not follow the word as well as they should, but for the firm believers, how do they enjoy themslves?

I don't mean to sound like an alcoholic (I don't even drink myself), but in Ireland - and other Western cultures, a popular way of spending a day is in a pub, drinking, playing pool, listening to music etc. But if many of these are frowned upon, what are common activities of entertainment in Islam?

Thanks again!

hivizman

mehfesto2 wrote: »

Thank you Hizivman.
I'm enjoying reading this forum. I'm learning lots - mostly thanks to yourself!

As I've said before on this forum, I'm not a Muslim myself, but I've been a student of Islam for several years since I first came into close contact with some Muslims at work. I have some Muslim colleagues and acquaintances, and have learnt a lot from them.

mehfesto2 wrote: »

You said the practice doesn't always live up to the theory (which could be said about any religion), and I would imagine there are some Muslims who do not follow the word as well as they should, but for the firm believers, how do they enjoy themslves?

I don't mean to sound like an alcoholic (I don't even drink myself), but in Ireland - and other Western cultures, a popular way of spending a day is in a pub, drinking, playing pool, listening to music etc. But if many of these are frowned upon, what are common activities of entertainment in Islam?

Thanks again!

The Muslims that I know tend to put more emphasis on their family life, but they do things like playing and watching sports, going to the cinema, eating out, listening to music, reading, watching TV - they'll even go to the pub and drink soft drinks. Possibly, the Muslims I know are not typical, and I tend to meet Muslim men more than women, but I get the impression that they don't really think a lot about the more complex issues of Islam, just as most Christians don't get into deep thoughts about Christian theology.

Four-Too

mehfesto2 wrote: »

Can I ask why it is not peritted to drink alcohol?

I understand that Buddhists do not drink because they wish to keep a 'clear mind and never lose control', to put in simple words. Is this similar to the Islam view on the subject at all?

It is not permitted to drink alcohol because it is said one becomes "blind" under the influence of alcohol, and does not recognise that such a person is my daughter, my sister, my mother etc. In the past, men have raped their daughters under the influence of alcohol - that is why it is so sinful.

tej

Four-Too wrote: »

It is not permitted to drink alcohol because it is said one becomes "blind" under the influence of alcohol, and does not recognise that such a person is my daughter, my sister, my mother etc. In the past, men have raped their daughters under the influence of alcohol - that is why it is so sinful.

The fact of the matter is that 99% of irish people drink alcohol in various amount . I have never heard any of them not recognising their mother, sisters, or doughters. In contrast, there are few people who have raped their doughters over years, definitely not under the influence of alcohol all the time.

corazon

All the Muslims I know enjoy a few drinks. We are going to the bar after work for couple today. They are strict on the no pork rule though.

irishconvert

tej wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that 99% of irish people drink alcohol in various amount . I have never heard any of them not recognising their mother, sisters, or doughters. In contrast, there are few people who have raped their doughters over years, definitely not under the influence of alcohol all the time.

The poster you are replying to is a bit over the top, but it is true that alcohol causes major harm in Irish society. From causing people to act in a destructive way which is totally out of character, to tearing families apart, the bad points far outweigh the benefits. Try spending the entire night sober walking around Temple Bar and you will see the harm is causes. Go along to an AA meeting and see how many lives are destroyed.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

The poster you are replying to is a bit over the top, but it is true that alcohol causes major harm in Irish society. From causing people to act in a destructive way which is totally out of character, to tearing families apart, the bad points far outweigh the benefits. Try spending the entire night sober walking around Temple Bar and you will see the harm is causes. Go along to an AA meeting and see how many lives are destroyed.

You could say the same thing about eating though - once someone over indulges in it enough, many lives can be harmed. There are plenty of people who drink without harming themselves or others, the bad points only outweigh the benefits if you drink badly.

Jaafa

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You could say the same thing about eating though - once someone over indulges in it enough, many lives can be harmed. There are plenty of people who drink without harming themselves or others, the bad points only outweigh the benefits if you drink badly.

Yes but eating is necessary. Alcohol is not. We try and avoid temptation where possible.

oceanclub

Jaafa wrote: »

Yes but eating is necessary. Alcohol is not. We try and avoid temptation where possible.

It seems odd that smoking isn't banned in that case as the same reasoning applies.

P.

Jaafa

oceanclub wrote: »

It seems odd that smoking isn't banned in that case as the same reasoning applies.

P.

Smoking at the time would not have been as prevalent as it is now. Also I would argue that its effects are (mainly) restricted to the person doing the smoking. As a result its not as 'bad' as alcohol which can affect those around you within a few hours.

My non-expert opinion on the matter.

hivizman

The Qur'an contains verses (in particular Surah al-Maidah 5:90) that prohibit the consumption of intoxicants (the meaning of the arabic word khamr is not altogether clear, and translators use words such as "wine" and "strong drinks" as well as "intoxicants" - the latter is favoured by the Yusuf Ali, Asad, Mohsin Khan and Saheeh International versions), and there are various hadith that reinforce this. As already noted by Jaafa, smoking tobacco was not prevalent at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an (indeed, outside the Americas, it was unknown), so it was not referred to specifically in Qur'an or Sunnah.

When tobacco smoking became common in the Muslim world, the general view was that smoking was at worst harmless and at best beneficial. This is no longer the case, and there seem to be two broad modern opinions. The first of these relies on various hadith in which Muhammad was reported as forbidding Muslims to harm themselves. If it is accepted that smoking tobacco amounts to self-harm, then it is forbidden (haram). Some people who offer this line of argument also use analogy to suggest that tobacco would now be classed as an "intoxicant" and hence banned by the Qur'an verse cited above.

The second view is that, because only the Qur'an or the explicit words of Muhammad can declare that anything is haram, and there is no specific mention of smoking in these sources of authority, the most that can be said is that smoking is disliked (makruh).

A Google search using the terms Islam and smoking brings up a large number of websites expressing views. Of the first ten sites listed, only one adopts the "smoking is makruh" position, the others claiming that "smoking is haram".

None of these arguments seem to have stopped several Muslims of my acquaintance being smokers, however.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You could say the same thing about eating though - once someone over indulges in it enough, many lives can be harmed. There are plenty of people who drink without harming themselves or others, the bad points only outweigh the benefits if you drink badly.

I've never seen anyone dance on someone else's head or have an affair after a five course meal!

Mark Hamill

Jaafa wrote: »

Yes but eating is necessary. Alcohol is not. We try and avoid temptation where possible.

Eating is only necessary to much smaller extent to what we generally do. Especially nowadays, when we get much of our nutritional requirements in pill form, most of our eating is superfluous to requirements. No one needs to eat a starter or a desert.

Mark Hamill

Jaafa wrote: »

Smoking at the time would not have been as prevalent as it is now.

So the quran just didn't foresee the present, where it has become prevelent?

Jaafa wrote: »

Also I would argue that its effects are (mainly) restricted to the person doing the smoking.

Second hand smoking?

Jaafa wrote: »

As a result its not as 'bad' as alcohol which can affect those around you within a few hours.

Only if you partake in it too much. Dont imbibe too much, and you usually wont have problems.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

I've never seen anyone dance on someone else's head or have an affair after a five course meal!

Well if you are only looking at immediate effects of eating, then no, overeating wont affect others in the same way as drinking will. However it could be argued that other things can lead to violence, such as sports. There are people who, sober or drunk, become highly irrational when watching sports and who will engage in violence to defend a team or sports personality that they support.

hivizman

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Eating is only necessary to much smaller extent to what we generally do. Especially nowadays, when we get much of our nutritional requirements in pill form, most of our eating is superfluous to requirements. No one needs to eat a starter or a dessert.

In the Qur'an, Surah al-'A'raf 7:31 has been translated by Muhammad Asad as:

"O Children of Adam! Beautify yourselves for every act of worship, and eat and drink, but so not waste: verily, He does not love the wasteful!"

Muhammad is reported (hadith in Al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah) to have said:

"Nothing is worse than a person who fills his stomach. It should be enough for the son of Adam to have a few bites to satisfy his hunger. If he wishes more, it should be: One-third for his food, one-third for his liquids, and one-third for his breath."

So eating and drinking to excess is strongly disliked within Islam.

hivizman

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Dont imbibe too much, and you usually wont have problems.

The Qur'an contains a verse generally considered to have been revealed before the verse in Surah al-Maidah (5:90) that forbids intoxicants. This verse, Surah al-Baqarah 2:219, is regarded as having been abrogated by the later verse in Surah al-Maidah. In Muhammad Asad's translation, the verse reads:

"They will ask thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: 'In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man: But the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring'."

The debate over the prohibition of alcohol within Islam is an example of what, on another thread, has been discussed as part of the conflict between the "Mutazilite" school of Islamic theology and the "Ash'arite" school. Simplifying things, a Mutazilite would try to find a rational explanation of the prohibition of alcohol (perhaps in terms of the damage that excessive consumption can cause to individuals and society, and the problems inherent in trying to specify "safe" levels of consumption given the wide variation in individuals' physiologies). An Ash'arite would say that the fact that alcohol is prohibited according to a clear verse in the Qur'an and clear statements by Muhammad is good enough to close the debate down. Humans may try to speculate about God's reasons for prohibiting the consumption of alcohol and other intoxicants, but at the end of the day revelation "trumps" human argument.

More generally, are things prohibited by God because they are evil/wrong/bad for us, or are things evil/wrong/bad for us because they are prohibited by God?

Morbert

irishconvert wrote: »

The poster you are replying to is a bit over the top, but it is true that alcohol causes major harm in Irish society. From causing people to act in a destructive way which is totally out of character, to tearing families apart, the bad points far outweigh the benefits. Try spending the entire night sober walking around Temple Bar and you will see the harm is causes. Go along to an AA meeting and see how many lives are destroyed.

It seems that Surah Al-Maa'idah 5:90-91 only makes sense if it is referring to a culture or society as a whole. I have several Muslim friends who drink, and they never drink to excess. Enmity and hatred is never sown.

As you say above, alcohol causes harm in Irish society because many people abuse it. When it is drunk by responsible individuals, however, it is perfectly harmless.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Well if you are only looking at immediate effects of eating, then no, overeating wont affect others in the same way as drinking will. However it could be argued that other things can lead to violence, such as sports. There are people who, sober or drunk, become highly irrational when watching sports and who will engage in violence to defend a team or sports personality that they support.

Oh come off it, spend an hour sober on the streets of any of our cities or towns on a fri/sat night and you will see the problems alcohol causes. It doesn't remotely compare to any violence caused by sports. I really think you are in denial by making this point.

I used to drink and I can say that I, and almost everyone I drank with (friends, work colleagues, family) have got themselves into situations they would be highly embarrassed about if the same thing happened while sober. Sit on the nitelink any weekend and look at the carry on, sit on the same bus on a weekday morning and you won't hear a peep out of anybody.

Are you telling me you never did anything stupid while drunk? Never got into a fight? Never kissed someone you didn't fancy? Never cheated or kissed someone else's girlfriend? Never made a complete fool of yourself? Never got thrown out of a pub? Never did something you were ashamed of?

Even having a skim through the "Personal Issues" forum of this website shows the problems caused by alcohol. In so many of the threads the root cause of the problem is alcohol. I'd say over half of the cheating threads are down to being drunk.

craggles

The vast majority of people who choose to drink accept all of the consequences of said drinking and you shouldn't judge them for it.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Oh come off it, spend an hour sober on the streets of any of our cities or towns on a fri/sat night and you will see the problems alcohol causes. It doesn't remotely compare to any violence caused by sports. I really think you are in denial by making this point.

I used to drink and I can say that I, and almost everyone I drank with (friends, work colleagues, family) have got themselves into situations they would be highly embarrassed about if the same thing happened while sober. Sit on the nitelink any weekend and look at the carry on, sit on the same bus on a weekday morning and you won't hear a peep out of anybody.

Confirmational bias. You dont notice the people who drink repsonsibly because they dont make trouble on the streets at night, you only notice the ones who abuse alcohol.

irishconvert wrote: »

Are you telling me you never did anything stupid while drunk? Never got into a fight? Never kissed someone you didn't fancy? Never cheated or kissed someone else's girlfriend? Never made a complete fool of yourself? Never got thrown out of a pub? Never did something you were ashamed of?

I dont drink. But I have done stupid things, made a fool of myself, gotten into fights and done shameful things without it. Alcohol is merely one motivator for these things, avoiding it is not the same as being immune from the personal failings that cause people to do silly things.

irishconvert wrote: »

Even having a skim through the "Personal Issues" forum of this website shows the problems caused by alcohol. In so many of the threads the root cause of the problem is alcohol. I'd say over half of the cheating threads are down to being drunk.

Again, confirmational bias. The people who drink without issue dont post in the Personal Issues forum in order to let people know that they have no issues.

oceanclub

While I agree with irishconvert that alcohol does cause damage, the number of associated deaths pale into comparison with smoking - 200 vs 7,000. *

* http://alcoholireland.ie/?page_id=110 and http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=5106

P.

irishconvert

craggles wrote: »

The vast majority of people who choose to drink accept all of the consequences of said drinking and you shouldn't judge them for it.

I'm not judging anybody for drinking alcohol, I am pointing out the problems in our society due to excessive drinking. These are the reasons it is banned in Islam. If you want to drink, fine, it's up to you. No skin off my nose.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Confirmational bias. You dont notice the people who drink repsonsibly because they dont make trouble on the streets at night, you only notice the ones who abuse alcohol.


I dont drink. But I have done stupid things, made a fool of myself, gotten into fights and done shameful things without it. Alcohol is merely one motivator for these things, avoiding it is not the same as being immune from the personal failings that cause people to do silly things.


Again, confirmational bias. The people who drink without issue dont post in the Personal Issues forum in order to let people know that they have no issues.

Your point: excessive eating is as harmful to society as excessive alcohol consumption, yes?

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Your point: excessive eating is as harmful to society as excessive alcohol consumption, yes?

They would be similar, yes. The social issues arising out of each would be different yes, but in terms of financial strain on the state and emotional strain on friends and relatives of the abuser the harm would be quite similar.

oceanclub

Coronary heart disease is still Ireland's biggest killer, accounting for a third of all deaths (down from a phenomenal 54% of deaths in the 1970s, presumably due to diet change and improved medicine). Its main causes are smoking and unhealthy eating, and it appears to be the case that moderate drinking of wine lessens the risk. ("Epidemiological studies indicate that consumption of alcohol at the level of intake in France (20-30 g per day) can reduce risk of CH D by at least 40%.")

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/coronary_heart_disease/causes.htm
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/014067369291277F

P.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

They would be similar, yes. The social issues arising out of each would be different yes, but in terms of financial strain on the state and emotional strain on friends and relatives of the abuser the harm would be quite similar.

Ok, well Islam discourages excessive eating also, as hivizman posted earlier.

irishconvert

oceanclub wrote: »

Coronary heart disease is still Ireland's biggest killer, accounting for a third of all deaths (down from a phenomenal 54% of deaths in the 1970s, presumably due to diet change and improved medicine). Its main causes are smoking and unhealthy eating, and it appears to be the case that moderate drinking of wine lessens the risk. ("Epidemiological studies indicate that consumption of alcohol at the level of intake in France (20-30 g per day) can reduce risk of CH D by at least 40%.")

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/coronary_heart_disease/causes.htm
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/014067369291277F

P.

Well, as hivziman posted earlier:

hivziman wrote:

The Qur'an contains a verse generally considered to have been revealed before the verse in Surah al-Maidah (5:90) that forbids intoxicants. This verse, Surah al-Baqarah 2:219, is regarded as having been abrogated by the later verse in Surah al-Maidah. In Muhammad Asad's translation, the verse reads:

"They will ask thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: 'In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man: But the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring'."

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, well Islam discourages excessive eating also, as hivizman posted earlier.

Discourages but doesn't ban. The religious police in Malaysia don't seem concerned by the epidemic in fast food eating and type 2 diabetes in children, for example (more fast food is now eaten there per capita than in the USA).

P.

irishconvert

oceanclub wrote: »

Discourages but doesn't ban. The religious police in Malaysia don't seem concerned by the epidemic in fast food eating and type 2 diabetes in children, for example (more fast food is now eaten there per capita than in the USA).

P.

I suppose over-eating is not in your face like over indulgence in alcohol is. It doesn't lead the person to other sins like being drunk would.

craggles

craggles wrote: »

The vast majority of people who choose to drink accept all of the consequences of said drinking

Eh no they don't judging by all the "but I was drunk so I'm not responsible" excuses

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

I suppose over-eating is not in your face like over indulgence in alcohol is. It doesn't lead the person to other sins like being drunk would.

If you want to ban alcohol because you feel it leads to sinning, that's one thing. But bringing health benefits into the debate then seems like a red herring.

P.

hivizman

The Islamic prohibition of alcohol consumption is of a different nature from a dislike of over-eating and any deduced prohibition of smoking, because the prohibition is clearly stated in the Qur'an (Surah al-Maidah 5:90). In addition, there are various hadiths backing up this prohibition, including one narrated by al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah (with variants narrated by Ahmed and Abu Dawud):

Anas said that: "The Messenger of Allah cursed ten categories of people who deal with intoxicants: (1) the one who manufactures it; (2) the one who orders, or pays for, it to be manufactured; (3) the one who drinks it; (4) the one who delivers it; (5) the one to whom it is delivered; (6) the one who serves it; (7) the one who sells it; (8) the one who gains money from it; (9) the one who buys it; and (10) the one for whom it is bought."

For many Muslims, there is no need to probe further - Allah has prohibited the consumption of intoxicants, and that's the end of the discussion. People who take this view would believe that, if Allah has legislated something through a clear statement in the Qur'an, then it is the duty of the Muslim (who by definition is one who submits himself or herself to the Will of Allah) to obey without question.

Other Muslims believe that Allah would not legislate to forbid something without a sound reason, so if consumption of intoxicants is forbidden, this is because intoxicants are harmful. One of the books in my collection, Healing Body & Soul: Your Guide to Holistic Wellbeing Following Islamic Teachings, by Amira Ayad (Riyadh: International Islamic Publishing House, 2008) takes this approach, setting out the prohibition on consuming intoxicants in Surah al-Maidah, then providing a page of discussion of the dangers of alcohol from a health perspective.

To a Muslim, evidence of the beneficial aspects of drinking alcohol is irrelevant - drinking alcohol is haram, and that's it. So I agree with Oceanclub that, from an Islamic perspective, bringing arguments about health benefits into the debate is a red herring, indeed even discussing the consequences, good or bad, of drinking alcohol is strictly irrelevant.

Even if the beneficial aspects of drinking alcohol outweighed the adverse aspects, the ban on alcohol, because it is set out in the Qur'an, would remain - in this situation, Islamic scholars would probably interpret it as one of the ways in which the Qur'an legislates for Muslims to be different from non-Muslims.

On the other hand, smoking and over-eating are not specifically prohibited, so arguments about the benefits and disadvantages of such practices are relevant.

irishconvert

Hivizman says everything I want to say but am too lazy to type/research! lol

squeakyduck

irishconvert wrote: »

It doesn't lead the person to other sins like being drunk would.

Gluttony and hedonism?

dead one

oceanclub wrote: »

Coronary heart disease is still Ireland's biggest killer, accounting for a third of all deaths (down from a phenomenal 54% of deaths in the 1970s, presumably due to diet change and improved medicine). Its main causes are smoking and unhealthy eating, and it appears to be the case that moderate drinking of wine lessens the risk. ("Epidemiological studies indicate that consumption of alcohol at the level of intake in France (20-30 g per day) can reduce risk of CH D by at least 40%.")

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/coronary_heart_disease/causes.htm
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/014067369291277F
P.

Ah it doesn't appear drinking of wine increase risk for others

Sex – The same amount of alcohol leads to a higher blood alcohol concentration (BAC) in women than in men, as women tend to have a smaller body size, a lower proportion of lean tissue and smaller livers than men. On the other hand, the higher level of risk-taking behaviour among men means that, over a lifetime, the risks to males exceed the risks to females.

Age – In general, younger people are less tolerant to alcohol and have less experience of drinking and its effects. In addition, puberty is often accompanied by risk-taking behaviours. Later in life, as people age, their tolerance for alcohol decreases and the risk of falling, driving accidents and adverse interactions with medications increases.

Mental health – people who have, or are prone to, mental health conditions (eg: anxiety and depression, schizophrenia) may have worse symptoms after drinking. Alcohol can also trigger a variety of mental health conditions in people who are already prone to these conditions.

Other health conditions that are made worse by alcohol – people who already have health conditions caused or exacerbated by alcohol, such as epilepsy, alcohol dependence, cirrhosis of the liver, alcoholic hepatitis or pancreatitis, are at risk of the condition becoming worse if they drink alcohol.

Medication and drug use – alcohol can interact with a wide range of prescribed and over-the-counter medications, herbal preparations and illicit drugs. This can alter the effect of either the alcohol or the medication and has the potential to cause serious harm to both the drinker and others.

Family history of alcohol dependence – people who have a family history of alcohol dependence (particularly among first-degree relatives) have an increased risk of developing a dependence.
http://www.whentosaywhen.com.au/effectsofalcohal.htm

Corkfeen

Everything you've started pretty much everyone knows. But that does not negate the fact that consuming moderate amounts of alcohol can be beneficial to your health. Why exactly did you bump a year old thread?

dead one

Corkfeen wrote: »

Everything you've started pretty much everyone knows. But that does not negate the fact that consuming moderate amounts of alcohol can be beneficial to your health. Why exactly did you bump a year old thread?

Consuming moderate amount of alcohol ... are you kidding.. It's addiction and this sickness increases with increase in time. I dont understand what do you mean by moderate amount...

Corkfeen wrote: »

Why exactly did you bump a year old thread?

because i like to repeat history, and history is filled with liar wearing blue robs, dear corkfeen

Khannie

dead one wrote: »

I dont understand what do you mean by moderate amount...

I think you've probably got a pretty good idea what a moderate amount is. If you don't understand what moderate means, any of the large number of online dictionaries should help you out.

Corkfeen

dead one wrote: »

Corkfeen wrote: »

Everything you've started pretty much everyone knows. But that does not negate the fact that consuming moderate amounts of alcohol can be beneficial to your health. Why exactly did you bump a year old thread?

Consuming moderate amount of alcohol ... are you kidding.. It's addiction and this sickness increases with increase in time. I dont understand what do you mean by moderate amount...

Once again exaggeration from Dead One cuts in. Not every single person that drinks is an alcoholic. For example, I'm not a major drinker, I think I've gone for a drink about twice this year, does this make me an addict? Plenty of people are capable of drinking small quantities of alcohol and to reap the benefits of it . But sure it doesn't matter anyway, sure aren't all the dog owners dying of sickness anyway? I'm also a bit of a historian, where do I get these blue robes?

dead one

Corkfeen wrote: »

Once again exaggeration from Dead One cuts in. Not every single person that drinks is an alcoholic. For example, I'm not a major drinker, I think I've gone for a drink about twice this year, does this make me an addict? Plenty of people are capable of drinking small quantities of alcohol and to reap the benefits of it . But sure it doesn't matter anyway, sure aren't all the dog owners dying of sickness anyway? I'm also a bit of a historian, where do I get these blue robes?

See Dear corkfeen, five fingers aren't equal, majority of people who drink alcohol become addictive to it. We aren't talking about individuals. We are talking about society, alcoholism creates society of people who suffer with moral disorder/corruption. Alcohol has its advantage but disadvantages are greater than advantages.

sure aren't all the dog owners dying of sickness anyway?

sickness is related to spiritual heath of heart. Yeah for sure people are dead they can't understand simple things. Alcohol affects spiritual health of heart as well physical.

Khannie

dead one wrote: »

majority of people who drink alcohol become addictive to it.

By this logic, most Irish adults are alcoholics. Is that your view?

dead one

Khannie wrote: »

By this logic, most Irish adults are alcoholics. Is that your view?

No i don't mean like that. I am talking in general about people who support alcoholism. I don't mean to point any special society.

shizz

dead one wrote: »

No i don't mean like that. I am talking in general about people who support alcoholism. I don't mean to point any special society.

Who supports alcoholism?

Sonics2k

dead one wrote: »

majority of people who drink alcohol become addictive to it.

That's just plain nonsense really. I'd be amazed if you have any stats to actually back that up.

In moderation, alcohol is fine. I'd have a beer once a month maybe, depending on how sunny it is.
But just like say, Sugar, too much of it is dangerous, but a normal amount is fine.