European Union Expansion

Riddle101

Who here is for EU expansion, do you like the idea of countries like Turkey coming into the EU? and what about the future, who's gonna be next on the EU list, maybe Russia, maybe Iraq or Iran or possibly Isreal. Should the EU expand as far as it can go to possibly even Asia? or should it just stay within the boundaries of Europe?

I ask this because a guy in my class in college thinks the EU should expand, why not?

But me, i'm against EU expansion. Don't get me wrong the EU has been good to us and it would ensure peace, but at the same time i feel like the EU is too domineering, always coming out with new treaties for more power or trying to bring out a new legistration, and i think that the more the EU grows the more we as a country lose in influence and even more so that the EU will look more like a United States of Europe then a Union. Oh and no i do not support Liberatas if anyone thinks i'm listening to them or work for them, it's just a simple belief of mine.

irish_bob

Riddle101 wrote: »

Who here is for EU expansion, do you like the idea of countries like Turkey coming into the EU? and what about the future, who's gonna be next on the EU list, maybe Russia, maybe Iraq or Iran or possibly Isreal. Should the EU expand as far as it can go to possibly even Asia? or should it just stay within the boundaries of Europe?

I ask this because a guy in my class in college thinks the EU should expand, why not?

But me, i'm against EU expansion. Don't get me wrong the EU has been good to us and it would ensure peace, but at the same time i feel like the EU is too domineering, always coming out with new treaties for more power or trying to bring out a new legistration, and i think that the more the EU grows the more we as a country lose in influence and even more so that the EU will look more like a United States of Europe then a Union. Oh and no i do not support Liberatas if anyone thinks i'm listening to them or work for them, it's just a simple belief of mine.

ireland has contributed hardly any blood or treasure to europe so if we vote no to lisbon 2 , we will be voting ourselves out of eu membership
we need them alot and they dont need us at all

K-9

Riddle101 wrote: »

Who here is for EU expansion, do you like the idea of countries like Turkey coming into the EU? and what about the future, who's gonna be next on the EU list, maybe Russia, maybe Iraq or Iran or possibly Isreal. Should the EU expand as far as it can go to possibly even Asia? or should it just stay within the boundaries of Europe?

I ask this because a guy in my class in college thinks the EU should expand, why not?

But me, i'm against EU expansion. Don't get me wrong the EU has been good to us and it would ensure peace, but at the same time i feel like the EU is too domineering, always coming out with new treaties for more power or trying to bring out a new legistration, and i think that the more the EU grows the more we as a country lose in influence and even more so that the EU will look more like a United States of Europe then a Union. Oh and no i do not support Liberatas if anyone thinks i'm listening to them or work for them, it's just a simple belief of mine.

Often the same people who voted No to Lisbon or are Eurosceptic, then moan about how ineffectual the EU's foreign policy is. Eg. The Mail complaining about a toothless EU as regards Russia, but then urging a No Vote!

sink

Seanies32 wrote: »

Often the same people who voted No to Lisbon or are Eurosceptic, then moan about how ineffectual the EU's foreign policy is. Eg. The Mail complaining about a toothless EU as regards Russia, but then urging a No Vote!

The British Eurosceptic press have a huge influence over here now. Things are only going to get worse, pretty soon we'll be just as ignorant as the UK.

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2008/lisbondocument/index.pdf

O'Morris

Riddle101 wrote: »

do you like the idea of countries like Turkey coming into the EU?

No, definitely not. Even Valery Giscard d'Estaing is opposed to the idea of letting Turkey in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val%C3%A9ry_Giscard_d%27Estaing

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

No, definitely not.

Why not?

oscarBravo

Different tribe, innit.

Oiche_mhaith

irish_bob wrote: »

i
no to lisbon 2 , we will be voting ourselves out of eu membership
we need them alot and they dont need us at all

This is complete rubbish. they said the same thing about lisbon, that Ireland would be the first to suffer. I'm pro europe but find it hard to support europe when people bully you into a yes (for the politicians). The no vote wasn't bad for ireland at all, in fact we might even get a second referendum with more favourable terms for us... it was bad for europe though, although how bad i'm not sure, we were told if a no went through europe would ground to a halt... seems to be chugging along nicley now...

On additional members... how can we refuse other countries membership?

dresden8

Seanies32 wrote: »

Often the same people who voted No to Lisbon or are Eurosceptic, then moan about how ineffectual the EU's foreign policy is. Eg. The Mail complaining about a toothless EU as regards Russia, but then urging a No Vote!

Russia unfortunately can do what it wants in its own back yard. Lisbon would not suddenly empower the Germans or the French to march on Moscow. They've learnt that lesson.

If the EU decides to play hard ball with Russia they can decide to turn off the gas two days before Christmas. What will Lisbon do for us then?

oscarBravo

This isn't a Lisbon thread, let's keep it on-topic.

djpbarry

oscarBravo wrote: »

Different tribe, innit.

Ah. Noted.

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote: »

Why not?

Because Turkey is not a European country. It's an Asiatic, Muslim country with a culture that's foreign to the Christian culture of Europe. Europe already has serious problems in integrating Muslims and so granting free movement to 70 million Muslim Turks is hardly going to do much to further the goal of European integration.

I agree with Valery Gistang De Valera who said that Turkey's entry into the EU would mean the end of Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giscard

dresden8

oscarBravo wrote: »

This isn't a Lisbon thread, let's keep it on-topic.

Agreed.

dresden8

Expansion of Europe would lead to several problems as it pushed into the near east.

Turkey is a modern secular government. But.......... it has a vast Asian hinterland that is positively medieval in it's mindset.

Russia has already laid down markers as to what it will allow on its borders. Can Europe take on Russia in its own backyard?

Does Europe really want to get directly involved in Israeli-Palestinian issues? What are Europes policies? I'd say the people and governments are quite split. Divisive is not the word.

Stay the hell out of the Caucasus, that's a nightmare.

Where is there to go? North Africa possibly, but realistically no.

Balkans is the limit as I see it.

Croatia, Montenegro, Serbia et al.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

Because Turkey is not a European country.

Geographically, that part of Turkey west of the Bosphorus is part of Europe.

O'Morris wrote: »

It's an Asiatic, Muslim country with a culture that's foreign to the Christian culture of Europe.

Is it? Turkish culture is totally foreign to the rest of Europe? It’s not that long ago that the whole of south-eastern Europe was, along with modern Turkey, part of the Ottoman Empire. Surely many cultural similarities remain?

O'Morris wrote: »

Europe already has serious problems in integrating Muslims...

Does it? My wife's from a Muslim background and she seems to be doing just fine.

O'Morris wrote: »

...and so granting free movement to 70 million Muslim Turks is hardly going to do much to further the goal of European integration.

You are aware that Tukey is a secular country, aren't you?

O'Morris wrote: »

I agree with Valery Gistang De Valera...

I don't.

cabinteelytom

Reductio ad absurdam. Can the EU expand for ever?
Ukraine, Russia, North Africa, China. At some point will there be a country, desirous of entry, which meets 'the criteria', which will be told 'No'? The last time such a thing happened was ,I believe to Britain in 1968.
It is the current intention of the EU to have no internal border checks, to add to the four freedoms (of people, goods, capital and services) a large number of 'rights' in the CFR to 'everyone', to 'workers', and to 'citizens of member countries'. The expanded EU is an exercise in curbing the powers of the nation states , empowering individuals against the states, enabling millions of people to swirl round a vast space of europe and asia, and empowers a very small number of apparatchiks, the President and the High Commissioner for Foreign Affairs (with some inadequate oversight by elected heads of government) to wield the huge economic power of the Union for the 'greater good of humanity' (as they would see it.)
If it was merely a trading block in which every country competes by the same fair rules on a level playing field an enlarged EU would be an uncontroversial 'good thing'.

dresden8

djpbarry wrote: »

You are aware that Tukey is a secular country, aren't you?

Yes it is. A country in thrall to its military to keep it secular. I suggest you look at the map and look at Turkey's Western modern Europan area and then look at its backward Eastern area.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11632799

irish_bob

djpbarry wrote: »

Geographically, that part of Turkey west of the Bosphorus is part of Europe.
Is it? Turkish culture is totally foreign to the rest of Europe? It’s not that long ago that the whole of south-eastern Europe was, along with modern Turkey, part of the Ottoman Empire. Surely many cultural similarities remain?
Does it? My wife's from a Muslim background and she seems to be doing just fine.
You are aware that Tukey is a secular country, aren't you?
I don't.

why would an intellgient individual ( no im not being sarcastic) such as yourself ask,is europe having difficulty integrating muslims ?

ChocolateSauce

I support unlimited EU membership, but under strict conditions. I'm not going talk about Lisbon, but I will say I saw this deadlock coming, and I thought that we should have done the constitution before the eastern 10 joined in 2004.

I think before we let anyone else in, we must get rid of the vetos. 27 nations, each with a veto, is a joke. I support Turkey joining, but only if a number of things are done.

1. The country must remain secular.
2. The freedom to criticise Turkishness, the Turkish nation and the genocide must be enshrined in law.
3. The freedom to wear headscarfs must be allowed.

I support eventual membership for all other European countries. Russia might be a problem. Even if it wanted membership, it just might be too big. The solution to that problem would be to dissolve the Russian Federation and let the states join on their own merits individually.

Of course that's looking very far into the future. It certainly won't happen within the next 40 years.

I would also support membership of non-European countries. How about commonwealth countries, for example? If Russia joined, Japan would only be a few miles away, so why not them? Of course you'd have to start calling it the United States of Earth by then.

Scofflaw

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I support unlimited EU membership, but under strict conditions. I'm not going talk about Lisbon, but I will say I saw this deadlock coming, and I thought that we should have done the constitution before the eastern 10 joined in 2004.

I think before we let anyone else in, we must get rid of the vetos. 27 nations, each with a veto, is a joke. I support Turkey joining, but only if a number of things are done.

1. The country must remain secular.
2. The freedom to criticise Turkishness, the Turkish nation and the genocide must be enshrined in law.
3. The freedom to wear headscarfs must be allowed.

I support eventual membership for all other European countries. Russia might be a problem. Even if it wanted membership, it just might be too big. The solution to that problem would be to dissolve the Russian Federation and let the states join on their own merits individually.

Of course that's looking very far into the future. It certainly won't happen within the next 40 years.

I would also support membership of non-European countries. How about commonwealth countries, for example? If Russia joined, Japan would only be a few miles away, so why not them? Of course you'd have to start calling it the United States of Earth by then.

I believe the usual term is New World Order.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nhughes100

I don't support Turkey joining the EU but I think the geographical argument is somewhat mute, after all Georgia wants to join NATO, (that would be North Atlantic treaty organisation!!)

djpbarry

dresden8 wrote: »

I suggest you look at the map and look at Turkey's Western modern Europan area and then look at its backward Eastern area.

I am well aware of Turkey’s problems and I never said that their membership should be unconditional – they should obviously have to meet the same criteria as every other member state.

irish_bob wrote: »

why would an intellgient individual ( no im not being sarcastic) such as yourself ask,is europe having difficulty integrating muslims ?

I thought it was a rather general statement, implying that all (or most) Muslims have difficulty integrating into European states. I’m sure there are immigrants who have difficulty integrating into <insert European country here>, irrespective of religious beliefs.

In the context of Turkey joining the EU (which is very unlikely to happen any time soon); as I’m sure most posters know, most Turks are not hard-line religious. The largest Islamist party in Turkey (The Felicity Party) received just 2.34% of the popular vote in the 2007 general election; to put that in perspective, that’s nearly three times less than the percentage of first-preference votes that Sinn Féin received in the Irish general election of the same year.

WooPeeA

sink wrote: »

The British Eurosceptic press have a huge influence over here now. Things are only going to get worse, pretty soon we'll be just as ignorant as the UK.

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2008/lisbondocument/index.pdf

British Eurosceptic press is a garbage. Nothing more but lies.

O'Morris wrote: »

Because Turkey is not a European country. It's an Asiatic, Muslim country with a culture that's foreign to the Christian culture of Europe. Europe already has serious problems in integrating Muslims and so granting free movement to 70 million Muslim Turks is hardly going to do much to further the goal of European integration.

I agree with Valery Gistang De Valera who said that Turkey's entry into the EU would mean the end of Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giscard

Indeed. What's next after Turkey? Saudi Arabia? Indonesia? China?

Let's keep it European.

dresden8 wrote: »

Turkey is a modern secular government. But..........

It's not modern secular republic. Did you know that they put your religion into your documents and National ID? There's two options: Muslim or None. No other to choose of religion.

I have a friend from Turkey and he told me that, as an atheist, he wanted to remove the religion from his ID, so came to the office and asked about it.. They were sending him to the end of queue for whole day until he resigned.

diddley

djpbarry wrote: »

I thought it was a rather general statement, implying that all (or most) Muslims have difficulty integrating into European states. I’m sure there are immigrants who have difficulty integrating into <insert European country here>, irrespective of religious beliefs.

And it's not general to say that you think they integrate well because your wife did?

Educate yourself about other European countries and I think you'll find its Muslims who are most unlikely to integrate.
Take hundreds of thousands of Irish Catholics from 1950's Ireland and bring them to modern-day Ireland and they most likely would not integrate either.

Scofflaw

WooPeeA wrote: »

It's not modern secular republic. Did you know that they put your religion into your documents and National ID? There's two options: Muslim or None. No other to choose of religion.

I have a friend from Turkey and he told me that, as an atheist, he wanted to remove the religion from his ID, so came to the office and asked about it.. They were sending him to the end of queue for whole day until he resigned.

Hmm. I invite you to try getting a child into an Irish school as an atheist, getting married or buried with any kind of ceremony as an atheist (in the case of Donegal, getting buried at all), doing business as an open atheist - and, indeed, filling in the Irish Census form. The Dáil starts each session with a prayer, our Constitution reserves a special place for the Christian God, we don't allow abortion on religious grounds. This is a Christian country, but most people no more see that than a fish sees water.

cordially,
Scofflaw

WooPeeA

I have no experience with those things, although I never hide my "religion" which is agnosticism if people asking. And never had any problems anywhere in Europe after saying who I am.

IMO it's bad thing to put religion into law.. Europe should stay secular, no matter is it catholic, protestant or orthodox country. Religion usually build unneeded walls between different societies and cultures, block science and education. In my opinion, religion should be "kicked out" of politics as well as from science and keep existing in people's hearts, like it does today.

I believe in secularism and equality, don't have to agree with me.


That's one of the reasons why I don't see Turkey in EU.

Scofflaw

WooPeeA wrote: »

I have no experience with those things, although I never hide my "religion" which is agnosticism if people asking. And never had any problems anywhere in Europe after saying who I am.

IMO it's bad thing to put religion into law.. Europe should stay secular, no matter is it catholic, protestant or orthodox country. Religion usually build unneeded walls between different societies and cultures, block science and education. In my opinion, religion should be "kicked out" of politics as well as from science and keep existing in people's hearts, like it does today.

I believe in secularism and equality, don't have to agree with me.

That's one of the reasons why I don't see Turkey in EU.

By the same token, we shouldn't have been allowed in in 1973, and Northern Ireland should be outside entirely. We have allowed in several strongly religious societies at various stages, except that they were Christian ones...

cordially,
Scofflaw

ChocolateSauce

I can add a bit more about Turkey. I've been to Istanbul, and I can attest that this city of 11.3 million people is thoroughly westernised. I know the rest on the country is not so much. Istanbul has unisex public baths, a thriving gay scene, and mosques that do not make women wear the headscarf when inside. I'd say Warsaw is more conservative than Istanbul.

Anyone who is conscious of the cultural differences between Dublin and the countryside can imagine the difference between Istanbul and the rest of Turkey, though, and the east part of the country is so ultra-nationalist as to be akin to religious fanaticism.

PHB

Why does geography matter? Just because some random geographer back in the day decided this was and wasn't in Europe means we should base our political decisions on it?
The question of Turkey just like any other country is a purely cost-benefit one.

WooPeeA

I wish that was only geographical difference..

Pride Fighter

O'Morris wrote: »

Because Turkey is not a European country. It's an Asiatic, Muslim country with a culture that's foreign to the Christian culture of Europe. Europe already has serious problems in integrating Muslims and so granting free movement to 70 million Muslim Turks is hardly going to do much to further the goal of European integration.

I agree with Valery Gistang De Valera who said that Turkey's entry into the EU would mean the end of Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giscard

So lets kick out Finland and Hungary for speaking an Asiatic language. Turkey is a great nation and it should join the European community, a precondition should be the reunification of Cyprus and if that can happen I see no problem.

Riddle101

Pride Fighter wrote: »

So lets kick out Finland and Hungary for speaking an Asiatic language. Turkey is a great nation and it should join the European community, a precondition should be the reunification of Cyprus and if that can happen I see no problem.

The only way i can see Turkey agreeing to the reunification of Cyprus is if it unites under Turkey's rule.

Anyway what about after Turkey? should the EU continue to expand bringing in possibly Isreal or other far off countries, it's not just about Turkey, it's about the future as well

thehighground

Riddle101 wrote: »

The only way i can see Turkey agreeing to the reunification of Cyprus is if it unites under Turkey's rule.

Anyway what about after Turkey? should the EU continue to expand bringing in possibly Isreal or other far off countries, it's not just about Turkey, it's about the future as well

Go back to Turkey for a minute - apart from cultural differences, would anyone be concerned about the effect 70m new EU citizens would have on the rest of Europe, particularly as regard freedom of movement and work.

Turkey would also be entitled to the same number of MEPs as Germany (99) and more than France (78) or the UK (78).

cabinteelytom

Israel wouldn't accept the restraints on it's sovereignty. It would kick the Treaty of Lisbon as far as Formosa.

Scofflaw

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Israel wouldn't accept the restraints on it's sovereignty. It would kick the Treaty of Lisbon as far as Formosa.

...and the EU wouldn't be able to accept them in as an ethnic/religious state. Still, they seem happy enough with our trade.

cordially,
Scofflaw

djpbarry

diddley wrote: »

And it's not general to say that you think they integrate well because your wife did?

That would be quite a generalisation, yes. Of course, I said no such thing.

diddley wrote: »

Educate yourself about other European countries and I think you'll find its Muslims who are most unlikely to integrate.

Well, first off, let's define what "integrate" means, because it is rather subjective, isn't it?

thehighground wrote: »

Go back to Turkey for a minute - apart from cultural differences...

Take any two existing members of the EU and I'm sure you will find "cultural differences" between them. Put simply, it would be a bizarre reason to preclude international relations with a country.

thehighground wrote: »

would anyone be concerned about the effect 70m new EU citizens would have on the rest of Europe, particularly as regard freedom of movement and work.

Concerned? No, not really. I haven't checked the figures on this, but I'm guessing that the population increase experienced by the EU in 2004 was greater than 70 million? It would have at least been in the same ball park.

thehighground wrote: »

Turkey would also be entitled to the same number of MEPs as Germany (99) and more than France (78) or the UK (78).

Seems fair to me.

sink

djpbarry wrote: »

Concerned? No, not really. I haven't checked the figures on this, but I'm guessing that the population increase experienced by the EU in 2004 was greater than 70 million? It would have at least been in the same ball park.
Seems fair to me.

It was just over 70 million, if you include Bulgaria and Romania in 2007 add another 30 odd million.

thehighground

djpbarry wrote: »

Take any two existing members of the EU and I'm sure you will find "cultural differences" between them. Put simply, it would be a bizarre reason to preclude international relations with a country.

Concerned? No, not really. I haven't checked the figures on this, but I'm guessing that the population increase experienced by the EU in 2004 was greater than 70 million? It would have at least been in the same ball park.
Seems fair to me.

So, it hasn't dawned on you that if Turkey was to become a member of the EU, Turkey should be treated in the exact same way as every other EU country which might have repercussions on EU finances. Where is all the money going to come from to develop Turkey (GDP $9k per capita), bearing in mind that Ireland is still not a net contributor to the EU. Turkey joining the EU (average $34K) would have some effect on average European GDP!

You've also ignored the other question about freedom of movement - do you think freedom of movement for an additional 70m people in Europe would be a good thing for all concerned and would not have any repercussions for the other 27 European States?

ChocolateSauce

thehighground wrote: »

So, it hasn't dawned on you that if Turkey was to become a member of the EU, Turkey should be treated in the exact same way as every other EU country which might have repercussions on EU finances. Where is all the money going to come from to develop Turkey (GDP $9k per capita), bearing in mind that Ireland is still not a net contributor to the EU. Turkey joining the EU (average $34K) would have some effect on average European GDP!

You've also ignored the other question about freedom of movement - do you think freedom of movement for an additional 70m people in Europe would be a good thing for all concerned and would not have any repercussions for the other 27 European States?

First off, average EU GDP is a pretty pointless figure! What does it matter? And Turks earn more than Romanians or Bulgarians, so that argument is out. Another way of looking at the same situation is this: Turkey joining would add almost a trillion dollars of capital to the EU, and give us a land boarder with Iran and Iraq, which sounds like a situation with high trade potential. It would also strengthen the west's influence in the middle east.

As for freedom of movement, keep in mind that 70m people aren't suddenly going to vacate Turkey if they join. Turks are well educated and would be an asset to any country they went to. There have been no serious problems with the huge influx of eastern Europeans into Ireland (except the odd badly taken fast food order), and to say Turks would tip the balance is conjecture.

My only fear is a rise in the influcence of Islam is the west, but that is another issue.

djpbarry

thehighground wrote: »

Where is all the money going to come from to develop Turkey (GDP $9k per capita), bearing in mind that Ireland is still not a net contributor to the EU. Turkey joining the EU (average $34K) would have some effect on average European GDP!

Turkey’s GDP per capita is not far off Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Croatia and is actually well ahead of both Romania and Bulgaria. Turkey’s GDP growth is currently estimated at 5.4% compared to ~2.4% in the EU.

Comparing GDP’s at this point in time is rather pointless as Turkish membership of the EU is some way away yet. If the Turkish economy continues to perform well in the interim, then you have little to worry about.

thehighground wrote: »

You've also ignored the other question about freedom of movement - do you think freedom of movement for an additional 70m people in Europe would be a good thing for all concerned and would not have any repercussions for the other 27 European States?

No, I didn’t ignore it; I quite clearly stated that I was not terribly concerned about it.

Why are you throwing around a figure of 70,000,000 anyway? It’s not like the entire population of Turkey is going to just up and leave if they join the EU, are they? By way of comparison, what percentage of Poland’s population emigrated after they joined the EU? It’s estimated that there about 3 million Poles living in EU countries other than Poland. Now, it’s highly unlikely that all of them have emigrated since 2004, but for arguments sake, let’s say they have. That represents just under 8% of the population of Poland.

It’s also worth noting that the unemployment rate in Turkey has been, on average, falling in recent years, albeit slowly. This is obviously likely to continue if the economy continues to perform well.

EDIT: ^^I see I was beaten to it!

thehighground

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

First off, average EU GDP is a pretty pointless figure! What does it matter? And Turks earn more than Romanians or Bulgarians, so that argument is out. Another way of looking at the same situation is this: Turkey joining would add almost a trillion dollars of capital to the EU, and give us a land boarder with Iran and Iraq, which sounds like a situation with high trade potential. It would also strengthen the west's influence in the middle east.

GDP gives some indication about the standard of living. The Turks won't be buying too much of what we're exporting! Turks may earn more than Romanians & Bulgarians (slightly), but there 2.5 times more Turks (72m) than Bulgarians (7.5m) and Romanians (22m) to accommodate (and that is in addition to the EU just receiving 70m people fairly recently). As for the trillion dollars of capital - so you saying that Turkey would become a net contributor immediately to the EU? And didn't the IMF bail Turkey out when it went bust a few years ago - presumably they will have to pay that back.

As for Iraq/Iran sharing a border - that didn't stop them having a war, now did it a few years ago! Who is to say that Iran/Iraq might not be too happy with Turkey joining the EU.

As for freedom of movement, keep in mind that 70m people aren't suddenly going to vacate Turkey if they join. Turks are well educated and would be an asset to any country they went to. There have been no serious problems with the huge influx of eastern Europeans into Ireland (except the odd badly taken fast food order), and to say Turks would tip the balance is conjecture.

My only fear is a rise in the influence of Islam is the west, but that is another issue.

Well, I think there have been a fair few problems in Germany with Turkish emigrants. As for education, unless they speak the language of the country they are going to they are going to end up in low end jobs. And even if they have university qualifications, they would probably not be recognised in most European countries. As for the influx of eastern Europeans into Ireland (some more popular than others) - of course there were no problems when there were plenty of jobs - lets see what happens in the next couple of months! Over the weekend, a politician (Fine Gael) suggested that we pay them to go home. He obviously thinks we might be facing a few problems.

PS - having reservations about an Islamic influence won't go down very well with a few posters on this board. (Whatever happened to freedom of thought/speech?).

I would be a bit concerned as well about the Islamic influence - a lot of muslim countries were fairly secular and advanced 25+ years ago, but changed very radically very quickly (Iran & Afghanistan being the most obvious).

thehighground

djpbarry wrote: »

Turkey’s GDP per capita is not far off Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Croatia and is actually well ahead of both Romania and Bulgaria. Turkey’s GDP growth is currently estimated at 5.4% compared to ~2.4% in the EU.

Comparing GDP’s at this point in time is rather pointless as Turkish membership of the EU is some way away yet. If the Turkish economy continues to perform well in the interim, then you have little to worry about.
No, I didn’t ignore it; I quite clearly stated that I was not terribly concerned about it.

Why are you throwing around a figure of 70,000,000 anyway? It’s not like the entire population of Turkey is going to just up and leave if they join the EU, are they? By way of comparison, what percentage of Poland’s population emigrated after they joined the EU? It’s estimated that there about 3 million Poles living in EU countries other than Poland. Now, it’s highly unlikely that all of them have emigrated since 2004, but for arguments sake, let’s say they have. That represents just under 8% of the population of Poland.

It’s also worth noting that the unemployment rate in Turkey has been, on average, falling in recent years, albeit slowly. This is obviously likely to continue if the economy continues to perform well.

EDIT: ^^I see I was beaten to it!

Of course the entire population of Turkey isn't going to come over here, but its fair to say that those 3 millions Poles have made their presence felt right throughout Europe and in particular Ireland. So, at a guess we could have double the number of Turks as Poles coming here.

I think I've covered most other things in my last post.

djpbarry

thehighground wrote: »

Turks may earn more than Romanians & Bulgarians (slightly)…

You seem to be confusing GDP with average wage, but anyway…

Turkey’s GDP per capita is about 86% higher than Bulgaria’s; I’d say that’s a pretty substantial difference.

thehighground wrote: »

Well, I think there have been a fair few problems in Germany with Turkish emigrants.

There’s also been a fair few problems in the UK with Irish immigrants; that’s not to say that Irish immigrants haven’t been, on the whole, good for the British economy.

thehighground wrote: »

As for education, unless they speak the language of the country they are going to they are going to end up in low end jobs.

I’m not sure why that should apply specifically to Turks? It is true of every nationality, is it not? What’s stopping Turks from learning, say, English?

thehighground wrote: »

And even if they have university qualifications, they would probably not be recognised in most European countries.

Why not?

thehighground wrote: »

I would be a bit concerned as well about the Islamic influence - a lot of muslim countries were fairly secular and advanced 25+ years ago, but changed very radically very quickly (Iran & Afghanistan being the most obvious).

Both of which (Iran and Afghanistan) had a lot to do with external influence. As I have said numerous times before, an Islamic revolution in Turkey seems about as likely as Sinn Féin winning an outright majority in Ireland’s next general election.

thehighground wrote: »

… its fair to say that those 3 millions Poles have made their presence felt right throughout Europe and in particular Ireland.

And it’s been an overwhelmingly positive influence, has it not?

thehighground wrote: »

So, at a guess we could have double the number of Turks as Poles coming here.

At another guess, we could have zero Turks coming to Ireland should Turkey become a member of the EU; but guessing is rather pointless, isn’t it?

Scofflaw

thehighground wrote: »

GDP gives some indication about the standard of living. The Turks won't be buying too much of what we're exporting!

Actually, Turkey ranks 7th in the EU's top import and 5th in export markets (source).

cordially,
Scofflaw

WooPeeA

Turkey use military against civilian people and don't recognize one of European states. How about that?

thehighground

Ok dj, I just hope that (unlike you) the EU leaders think seriously about inviting Turkey to join the EU because as far as I can see, because of the sheer size of the country (and need for infrastructure and EU investment) and population. It doesn't have the most stable of governments either.

Bulgaria has a population of 7.5 million. Turkey has 72m. Bulgaria would not require the same investment from the EU in infrastructure as Turkey because it is a much smaller country/lower population than Turkey.

There have been no problems with the Irish in the UK (other than we were treated very badly initially - and the IRA bombing campaign in the 80s didn't help either of course). You do realise that culturally, Irish people are very close to our next door neighbours!

As for the language issue - it applies to everyone who seeks work in a country where their own language isn't the first language. I personally found it very difficult language wise having to communicate with foreign doctors/ nurses recently where English wasn't their first language.

As for university degrees - university may not be recognised by relevant professional association and so graduates not accepted for membership. At a minimum the may need to sit exams here in Ireland for their degree to be recognised. I've come across a fair few Poles who have very good degrees and who are working in shops etc.

Fairplay to you for your 'wing and a prayer' confidence that you can control all influences on Turkey As for Afghanistan - I found "The Bookseller of Kabul" to be a good read on how a progressive country, with well educated people can change very quickly (and not for the best).

As regards Turkish people coming to Ireland to work - hopefully our Government dont indulge in your 'wing & a prayer' planning that it will be aright on the night as they say.

thehighground

Scofflaw wrote: »

Actually, Turkey ranks 7th in the EU's top import and 5th in export markets (source).

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bet imports from EU into Turkey are machinery & chemicals from Germany.

Exports to EU - some food - oranges etc. but probably mostly (workshop) clothing.

djpbarry

WooPeeA wrote: »

Turkey use military against civilian people and don't recognize one of European states. How about that?

I’m not sure about your fist claim, but as for Cyprus; well, it’s hardly an insurmountable problem. Besides, I never said that Turkey’s membership should be unconditional.

thehighground wrote: »

Ok dj, I just hope that (unlike you) the EU leaders think seriously about inviting Turkey to join the EU because as far as I can see, because of the sheer size of the country (and need for infrastructure and EU investment) and population…

…what? Are you going to finish that statement?

thehighground wrote: »

There have been no problems with the Irish in the UK…

Really? No crime committed in the UK by Irish nationals? No problems whatsoever?

thehighground wrote: »

You do realise that culturally, Irish people are very close to our next door neighbours!

Could you outline some of these cultural similarities and, in doing so, explain why Turkish culture is so completely outlandish by comparison?

thehighground wrote: »

As for the language issue - it applies to everyone who seeks work in a country where their own language isn't the first language.

Yes, it does. So I have no idea why you brought it up in a discussion about Turkey and the EU.

thehighground wrote: »

As for university degrees - university may not be recognised by relevant professional association and so graduates not accepted for membership.

Again, what has this got to do with Turkey, specifically? There are institutions in Ireland that offer “degrees” that are not worth the paper they are written on; is that a reason to kick Ireland out of the EU?

thehighground wrote: »

As regards Turkish people coming to Ireland to work - hopefully our Government dont indulge in your 'wing & a prayer' planning that it will be aright on the night as they say.

:rolleyes:

I have quite clearly explained, based on current and projected economic conditions, why I do not believe Turks will migrate en masse to Ireland. If you see a flaw in my reasoning, feel free to point it out.

I notice that you have not mentioned the huge potential benefits of EU membership for Turkey; most significantly, free access for Irish businesses to a market containing 70 million people.

WooPeeA

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not sure about your fist claim, but as for Cyprus; well, it’s hardly an insurmountable problem. Besides, I never said that Turkey’s membership should be unconditional.

They use their army against their own citizens, a nation of Kurds, bombing their villages. I know there's many rebels hiding themselves in those villages, but even if all of them would be terrorists, that's not how European country should behave.

I can't imagine that or any similar kind of act with European flag putted on the tanks.

limklad

Riddle101 wrote: »

Who here is for EU expansion, do you like the idea of countries like Turkey coming into the EU? and what about the future, who's gonna be next on the EU list, maybe Russia, maybe Iraq or Iran or possibly Isreal. Should the EU expand as far as it can go to possibly even Asia? or should it just stay within the boundaries of Europe?

I ask this because a guy in my class in college thinks the EU should expand, why not?

But me, i'm against EU expansion. Don't get me wrong the EU has been good to us and it would ensure peace, but at the same time i feel like the EU is too domineering, always coming out with new treaties for more power or trying to bring out a new legistration, and i think that the more the EU grows the more we as a country lose in influence and even more so that the EU will look more like a United States of Europe then a Union. Oh and no i do not support Liberatas if anyone thinks i'm listening to them or work for them, it's just a simple belief of mine.

Russia will never be part of the EU. They are way too big to incorporate and will not like to be told what to do.
Iraq/Iran not in Europe or have European ideals like Cyprus, so NO.
Turkey - I am in favour of letting them Join, They be good for the EU, they are more European than French President says. They been extensively involved over the last two centuries in European affairs and always been looking to be more involved in Europe. It will stop Turkey from current infighting that taking place at the moment and insuring better equal rights for both minorities and women.

Israel will not be part of Europe beside sports and Eurovision competitions. Turkey is more align with the EU than Israel is. Israel like Russia will not like to be told what to do, especially they are a small state and will have little influence when joining.

The EU Project was setup for a stable Europe, war free Europe, a talking shop and co-operating on common matters. So expansion will fulfil that role. There are many more European yet to Join. Remainder of Balkans states (former Yugoslavia states and Albania) and former Soviet states (We only have three Baltic's states), Switzerland, Norway and Iceland.
Switzerland & Norway referendums fail.

Like wise a No Vote for Lisbon is not stopping expansion of the EU. The French President and German Chancellor is stopping expansion of the EU. The NICE treaty provides for expansion and the rules beyond 25 states. EU cannot kick us out for voting NO but EU states can make it difficult for us if we do it again.

EU may be too domineering at the moment but will be more domineering with Lisbon treaty.
Lisbon only delay NICE rules for another few years with addition rules for QVM and expanding areas of legislation of QVM of existing Areas of power hand over from members states to EU under previous treaties with some exceptions such as TAX.
Lisbon gives greater powers to the European parliament and States parliaments more influence, greater power for EU courts, slight restructure of the EU pillars and EU commission, EU charter of fundamental rights into Law. Right for EU states governments to self amend the existing EU treaties. I think I got the basics here.

Personality After some time since the Referendum and many debates later, I feel that the EU under Lisbon will have too much power and a step too far.

As for Expansion: I in favour of it, Gives more stability to prospective states.
Getting out of the EU: There is lots of Good and Bad with the existing EU, but I am against that idea of getting out of the EU. The EU has benefit with us in it as it used (or Advertised) us as a benefit for Joining the EU to create a more stable war free Europe.

oscarBravo

limklad wrote: »

Lisbon gives greater powers to the European parliament...

A power shift from the non-directly elected EU bodies to the directly-elected. This is bad, why?

...and States parliaments more influence...

This is bad, why?

...greater power for EU courts...

Over matters of EU law. Bad, why?

...slight restructure of the EU pillars and EU commission...

Bad, why?

...EU charter of fundamental rights into Law.

Bad, why?

Right for EU states governments to self amend the existing EU treaties.

Nope. Same amendment procedure (unanimous ratification by all member states), but no need for a whole treaty for every amendment.

Personality After some time since the Referendum and many debates later, I feel that the EU under Lisbon will have too much power and a step too far.

Based on what you've posted, I'm not at all clear on why you feel that.