Irish Rail endorses same-sex descrimination?

clubcrown

This............

http://www.mamanpoulet.com/?p=438

.........is pretty unbelievable. Just when you think they couldn't sink any lower, eh?

godtabh

clubcrown wrote: »

This............

http://www.mamanpoulet.com/?p=438

.........is pretty unbelievable. Just when you think they couldn't sink any lower, eh?

Is the law they are enfocring?

However Mary Coughlan who was then the Minister responsible wasn’t having any of it. This ruling would open the doors to all sorts of rights for same sex couples to access social welfare benefits. She needed to redefine what a spouse was - and to her that was a person of the opposite gender. To quash this sort of thing she introduced the Social Welfare Amendment Act 2004 to the annoyance of lesbians and gay men and the Equality Authority.

ardmacha

For once Irish Rail are off the hook on this one, it has nothing got to do with Irish Rail. They offer free transport to those who the Dept of Social Welfare pay them for. If the Dept say they won't pay then off course Irish Rail doesn't have a different policy.

clubcrown

ardmacha wrote: »

For once Irish Rail are off the hook on this one, it has nothing got to do with Irish Rail. They offer free transport to those who the Dept of Social Welfare pay them for. If the Dept say they won't pay then off course Irish Rail doesn't have a different policy.

Yes. But did you see the picture of the sign? And their response to the person who raised it?

The government need to sort it out in general, thats true; but there are ways of dealing with things, and this is not the bast way for IE to go about it

munchkin_utd

If you ask me its a waste of government funds in the first instance, that a companion pass is available to the partner of ANY healthy pension recipient.

And thats regardless of whether the partner is male, female or somewhere in between.

Is there any other scheme or facility in the country where the spouse of a pensioner gets a discount, let alone totally free services, just because they are married to an older person?

If anything its discrimination against single sub 65 year old that we dont have an auld one to bring us for free trips on busses and trains!!

Metrobest

ardmacha wrote: »

For once Irish Rail are off the hook on this one, it has nothing got to do with Irish Rail. They offer free transport to those who the Dept of Social Welfare pay them for. If the Dept say they won't pay then off course Irish Rail doesn't have a different policy.

In socially conservative Ireland I don't see a big rush of heterosexual male pensioners claiming to be gay in order to get free travel.

Nor do I believe there are many pensioner gay couples out there who would claim the benefit.

So for Irish Rail to deny (a very small number of) same sex couples what they should be entitled to, because Mary Coughlan isn't comfortable with it, just sounds out of touch. What's new?

AlekSmart

Just to be fair to the Transport Companies who operate the current Free Travel Scheme it should be noted that AFAIAA the person who took the original Equality Act case remains entitled to the Partner Pass he was issued with.

This means that we have ONE PERSON in the entire State who has this entitlement and he was named in a circular from the Department of Social and Community Affairs to ALL such companies and that remains the case.

The current arrangements pertaining to the Free Travel scheme are in total disarray with a high level of fraud ongoing on a daily basis.

With the current Government Cash crisis we can expect some further tighteneing of the belt in the near future......irrespective of gender :cool:

ardmacha

Irish Rail should not be giving free trips to people based on some view of social issues, this is not the business of a railway company. They should charge everyone the same, except where the government provides free travel.

serfboard

I agree with the 2 strands of opinion of previous posters.

1. This is an issue for the Department - not Iarnrod Eireann.

2. Given changing economic circumstances, I can see this "partners travel free" scheme being abolished. It's an awful waste of money, IMO.

shoegirl

Metrobest wrote: »

In socially conservative Ireland I don't see a big rush of heterosexual male pensioners claiming to be gay in order to get free travel.

Nor do I believe there are many pensioner gay couples out there who would claim the benefit.

So for Irish Rail to deny (a very small number of) same sex couples what they should be entitled to, because Mary Coughlan isn't comfortable with it, just sounds out of touch. What's new?

Spot on.

Metrobest

ardmacha wrote: »

Irish Rail should not be giving free trips to people based on some view of social issues, this is not the business of a railway company. They should charge everyone the same, except where the government provides free travel.

It's not about "some view of social issues". It's about not actively discrimating against same sex couples. 'Partner' has to mean partner of either gender, or else you're saying that same sex relationships are inferior or less deserving of benefits than heterosexual relationships. Such views have no place in a modern, secular democracy.

It's the business of the railway company to provide ticket products relevent to the makeup of the population it serves. If Irish Rail can offer discounts to families (no government subsidies for that), I don't see why it couldn't forego a few euros as a goodwill gesture to the tiny number of gay pensioners and their partners that might like to avail of this "partner travels free" ticket.

gazzer

Not disputing your post but I find it hard to believe that there is only one person in the entire country who is gay with a partner and eligible for the Free Travel Pass Scheme. I would hazzard a guess (judging from the amount of older gay people that frequent the George for example) that there are plenty of gay co-habiting couples of eligible age but who may have not took an Equality case.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Just to be fair to the Transport Companies who operate the current Free Travel Scheme it should be noted that AFAIAA the person who took the original Equality Act case remains entitled to the Partner Pass he was issued with.

This means that we have ONE PERSON in the entire State who has this entitlement and he was named in a circular from the Department of Social and Community Affairs to ALL such companies and that remains the case.

The current arrangements pertaining to the Free Travel scheme are in total disarray with a high level of fraud ongoing on a daily basis.

With the current Government Cash crisis we can expect some further tighteneing of the belt in the near future......irrespective of gender :cool:

ardmacha

Family tickets and the like are marketing initiatives. This issue is not a marketing initiative, as it can only lose revenue. It would be just a sensible to accuse Irish rail of racial or ethnic "discrimination" against the small number of pensioners from Denmark who travel on their services, as these do not get free. This is not discrimination, the government said that they will pay for certain classes of passenger, consequently Irish Rail do not charge these people. The government might decide that unemployed people or people on the lower tax band travel free. This does not include me, but if I have an issue with that, then my problem is with the government not Irish Rail. IBM might do a deal with Irish Rail for all of their employees to travel free, and they'll pay. I may have been refused a job with IBM but it doesn't mean that Irish Rail is discriminating against me.

spurious

gazzer wrote: »

Not disputing your post but I find it hard to believe that there is only one person in the entire country who is gay with a partner and eligible for the Free Travel Pass Scheme. I would hazzard a guess (judging from the amount of older gay people that frequent the George for example) that there are plenty of gay co-habiting couples of eligible age but who may have not took an Equality case.

Of course there are lots of gay people out they who could qualify, but the man who took the case won his case before Mary moved the goal posts. As a result he is the only one whose partner is entitled.

gazzer

spurious wrote: »

Of course there are lots of gay people out they who could qualify, but the man who took the case won his case before Mary moved the goal posts. As a result he is the only one whose partner is entitled.

@ Spurious. Ah I see what you mean now. Sorry, I read your post wrongly.

ixoy

ardmacha wrote: »

This is not discrimination, the government said that they will pay for certain classes of passenger, consequently Irish Rail do not charge these people.

Yes but it is discrimination by the Irish government and it's the type of discrimination that should have no place these days.

AlekSmart

Just to clarify gazzer,the original person whose case was adjudicated upon and whose legal team found a flaw in the Free Travel Scheme`s administration remains entitled to the benefits of his successful challenge.

The Department of Social and Community Affairs went as far as circulating two memos,the first of which announced the extension of the FT Scheme`s benefits to ALL qualifying partners.
The second memo outlined the measures which had been taken to redraft the FT scheme`s wording and then advised of the name and address of the individual concerned,which AFAIR was a gentleman from the Manor St area of Dublin.

It was and remains all documented and above board but as other posters have noted has NOTHING whatever to do with ANY of the Public Transport Operators.....

Victor

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0906/1220629535719.html

Welfare codes under review to identify same-sex couple bias
FIONA GARTLAND

THE DEPARTMENT of Social and Family Affairs has said it is undertaking a review of all social welfare codes, including those that may discriminate against same-sex couples.

Responding to complaints against Iarnród Éireann for enforcing rules that exclude same-sex partners from travelling free with over-66s who carry a travel pass, the department said the scheme generally only allowed the “spouse” of a person with a pass to travel free on public transport. “The definition of spouse [Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005] does not extend to partners in a same-sex couple,” a spokeswoman for the department said.

She said a review of the entire social welfare code is currently being undertaken to examine its compatibility with the Equal Status Act, 2000.

This will identify direct or indirect discrimination, on any of the nine grounds under the Equal Status Act, 2000, she said. The work is expected to be completed by early 2009.

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties has accused Iarnród Éireann of “profiteering from a licence to discriminate issued by the Department of Social and Family Affairs”. He said the issue highlighted the urgent need for new legislation on same sex partnerships.

An Iarnród Éireann spokesman said it had simply enforced the department’s provisions in relation to travel passes, as every travel company is required to do.

Ham'nd'egger

Don't quote me on this one but I know of a gay man working for Dublin Bus and as far as I know the staff travel scheme extends to his partner; certainly the Irish Rail one extends to female spouses outside of matrimony (My sister had her "Privilege Ticket" years back). Now I stress that the staff scheme is nothing to do with the Social Welfare scheme and is internal in nature but it is quite generous for CIE staff and even allows huge discounts on train fares in the UK.

steve-o

In the meantime.... surely a friendly doctor can be found to write a note saying that the person is not fit to travel alone, and that person can then nominate anyone to travel with them for free.

Metrobest

It would be just a sensible to accuse Irish rail of racial or ethnic "discrimination" against the small number of pensioners from Denmark who travel on their services, as these do not get free. This is not discrimination, the government said that they will pay for certain classes of passenger

The point is that the gay pensioners and their spouses/partners are Irish citizens and therefore entitled to equality under Irish law. I'd have no problem with Danish gays paying to use Irish Rail's woeful trains, but I think that gay pensioners in Ireland - who suffered through an era where homosexuality was legally a crime under Irish law - should be shown some respect by the state they have served. The ultimate irony is that in progressive Denmark, I'm quite sure any pensioner benefits would also be extended to Irish citizens, be they gay or straight.

Victor

AFAIK, the criteria for a free travel pass is based on residency, not citizenship.

fh041205

steve-o wrote: »

In the meantime.... surely a friendly doctor can be found to write a note saying that the person is not fit to travel alone, and that person can then nominate anyone to travel with them for free.

Unless the health service are wiliing to pay for that journey by means of rail warrants, its not going to happen. At least not for free. Unless, that is, the department of S&FA are willing to issue a pass with such a condition.

shltter

fh041205 wrote: »

Unless the health service are wiliing to pay for that journey by means of rail warrants, its not going to happen. At least not for free. Unless, that is, the department of S&FA are willing to issue a pass with such a condition.

That was the posters point

there is a companion pass which allows a person unable to travel alone to bring a companion to assist them

It requires a medical cert to obtain


Just on this social welfare passes are issued to more than OAPs and the spouse/partner free travel in general extends to them ( people who get carers allowance and receive a free pass are excluded from the spouse free travel)

For the few months that this was available after the ruling and before the rules were changed this was abused beyond belief it seemed like the vast majority of social welfare travel pass holders had suddenly become gay or lesbian.
Drivers were instructed that they were not to in anyway question whether someone was gay or if they were the partner as this could lead to a discrimination case.


The current travel pass scheme is a joke and is wide open to large scale abuse that is not an excuse for it to discriminate against same sex couples the scheme needs to be completely reformed


BTW the reason for the spouse/partner scheme was the whole discriminatory basis on which pensions were not given to married women but to there husbands with a payment added for the dependent.

Given that the Government is now moving away from that model and giving everyone there own pension payments the need for a spouse/partner travel scheme seems to be no longer necessary ( or should soon be no longer necessary) as spouse/ partners dependant on social welfare should have there own travel pass.

fh041205

shltter wrote: »

That was the posters point

there is a companion pass which allows a person unable to travel alone to bring a companion to assist them

It requires a medical cert to obtain

Indeed. But you would need to apply for such a pass, and not just turn up at the station with a doctors note, as the poster seemed to be suggesting.

shltter

fh041205 wrote: »

Indeed. But you would need to apply for such a pass, and not just turn up at the station with a doctors note, as the poster seemed to be suggesting.

I think you are taking the poster too literally it is quite obvious he was referring to a doctors note being needed for an application for a companion pass and was not suggesting that people turn up with a note from their doctor when they attempt to board a train or bus with a companion.

fh041205

shltter wrote: »

I think you are taking the poster too literally it is quite obvious he was referring to a doctors note being needed for an application for a companion pass and was not suggesting that people turn up with a note from their doctor when they attempt to board a train or bus with a companion.

Fair enough. Thats how I picked him up. I'm sure others would have done the same.