TD's pay now past €100k !!

gurramok

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0901/1220218691049.html

TDs WILL receive a pay rise of some €2,500 a year today under the final phase of the current national pay agreement. It will bring the basic salary to more than €100,000.

The Taoiseach's pay will go up by almost €7,000 a year while senior civil servants and judges will get similar increases under the final 2.5 per cent phase of Sustaining Progress.

Aren't they worth it?

tallaght01

It's a bit like charities paying their CEOs 150k. People think it's madness, and they give out about their money going to "admin costs".

But to lure a top quality businessman away from big business, charities should pay big. These guys can be worth 20 times their salary.

Simliarly, I'm not opposed to paying TDs big money, if it helps attract better people. Whether it does is arguable. But I don't think a pay cut is the way to attract better candidates!

Karoma

tallaght01 wrote: »

But to lure a top quality businessman away from big business, charities should pay big. These guys can be worth 20 times their salary.

... isn't it also a bit like giving top level management a pay rise for slashing jobs and cutting expenditure?
A fair and honest democratic government is not meant to be so like a business as to have to compete. It's a cushy job at any rate. You also seem to think that these people are otherwise employable. You give too many too much credit.

Irjudge1

I've no problem with TD's being paid well. Any of the guys I've met good and bad are "always on" always at work basically. They're welcome to it.

Terry

Nice. I want to be a TD.

My TD is about as useful as a rotting cabbage.
So no.

MIN2511

Terry wrote: »

Nice. I want to be a TD.

Me too!

LovelyHurling

I don't partiularly agree with the phrase "worth every cent" as obviously abilities vary. I think some TDs a re worth more, some far less, and of course there's no clear way of differentiating without the subjection of political or personal bias.

However, in general, yes I do think that the people who ultimately and theoretically run the country, legislate for us as our elected officials, as well as represent our constituencies in Leinster House do indeed deserve this salary.

I've worked with some politicians and would not describe any of them as lazy. Sometimes arrogant, sometimes foolish, but always hard workers and always achieving goals for the party or for their constituents.

FlutterinBantam

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's a bit like charities paying their CEOs 150k. People think it's madness, and they give out about their money going to "admin costs".

But to lure a top quality businessman away from big business, charities should pay big. These guys can be worth 20 times their salary.

Simliarly, I'm not opposed to paying TDs big money, if it helps attract better people. Whether it does is arguable. But I don't think a pay cut is the way to attract better candidates!

I'd have to disagree on a fundamental point.

No way,I say again, no way would I contribute to Charities run by dudes on 150k p.a.

May be a totally warped way of thinking but sorry, no way Jose.

Ross_Mahon

I could pay the bills with that job, where do you apply? FAS?

WoollyRedHat

How many months holidays do they get again. Wouldn't mind if they actually did something worthwile ( the majority of them), but it seems this is not the case.

Let's come up with 100 reasons to deduct a grand off their paychecks.

Cowen doesn't deserve an increase. It's bloodly ridicolous, we're in a recession and yet to have the cheek of trying to claim others should be paid less in the current financial climate while they get another nice sum on their already huge pay checks is laughable.

seamus

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's a bit like charities paying their CEOs 150k. People think it's madness, and they give out about their money going to "admin costs".

But to lure a top quality businessman away from big business, charities should pay big. These guys can be worth 20 times their salary.

Simliarly, I'm not opposed to paying TDs big money, if it helps attract better people. Whether it does is arguable. But I don't think a pay cut is the way to attract better candidates!

I'm not sure.

Would you rather you got a candidate who's interested in the money, or a candidate who's interested in the job? If you dropped the salary, you may weed out those people who are in it because they're attracted to the high salary.

Of course, I imagine those people are few and far between. Many TD's are wealthy independently of their Dail salary and are in politics by virtue of their commerical/industrial connections.

Perhaps to try and get people who are actually into politics and making a difference, it would be an idea to make the package appealing, while keeping the actual cash low.

So you get a basic of €40k, all taxed at 21%, you get a home for your time in the Dail (all bills paid), you get a car for Dail business and a car for personal business, with all petrol/diesel paid for.
If you've any kids, all of their school fees and other educational costs are looked after.

The downside is that you don't necessarily get to choose your house - it's a building somewhere in your constituency. If you already live in your constituency, the country pays your mortgage during your time in the dail.

jimmycrackcorm

Td's don't have any non-work time really as there's aways consituency things in the evenings and weekends. Even Cowan can't get a holiday in peace, so I think if you count the lack of free time, then they are paid proportionally.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure.

Would you rather you got a candidate who's interested in the money, or a candidate who's interested in the job? If you dropped the salary, you may weed out those people who are in it because they're attracted to the high salary.

Sounds like a plan to me.

Sherifu

Worth every penny you guys can give them. Priceless!

tallaght01

Flutterin, I'm sure the head of the red cross would get a big salary? I've worked with them over a long period, and they're a really well run outfit. The head honchos at a country level run it like a business. You want someone with a knowledge of PR, finance, and with a lot of connections in the business world. I'd go to the other extreme,a nd say I'd never contribute to a charity that had a CEO who gets 20k per annum. I was on the board of a charity in the Uk once who paid their CEO 26k sterling a year, and you could tell.

As for not wanting to attract TDs who are interested in pay packets...I see the point. It's an argument that's been around for many years, but I've never been convinced by it.

I want good people running the show. I want my finance minister to have a shed load of experience in economics etc. I want the minister for law reform or whatever to have an amazing legal mind.

That's not to see these people shouldn't be attracted to the altruism of being a politician. BUt they should have an option of leaving their current job to go into politics. Their current job is likely to be highly paid.

If you have an amazing legal mind who wants to run for election, he may be a highly successful lawyer, for example. He may have a mortgage on a gaff worth a million. His kids might be at private schools. Fair play to him, he's worked hard for it. But he's frustrated at the legal system, and would like to see a change. He'd like to get involved. But the TDs salary is 50K....so it's not an option for him.

As for people who say that TDs don't work hard, I think they're very mislead. Whatever about people's opinions on the state of the country, TDs seem to me to work crazy crazy hours.

FlutterinBantam

I said my argument was not logical.

It's just I have an inherent distaste listening to some dude on 200k a year hectoring and telling ME that I need to contribute to alleviate poverty in Sudan.

Nothing logical about that at all I freely admit.

I would have far more respect for some geezer who was struggling himself ,instead of an address in leafy Dublin 6 and a direct line to RTE

Dragan

Is this not just their equivilent of the bog standard pay rise we all got this year?

gurramok

tallaght01 wrote: »

I want good people running the show. I want my finance minister to have a shed load of experience in economics etc. I want the minister for law reform or whatever to have an amazing legal mind.

That's not to see these people shouldn't be attracted to the altruism of being a politician. BUt they should have an option of leaving their current job to go into politics. Their current job is likely to be highly paid.

If you have an amazing legal mind who wants to run for election, he may be a highly successful lawyer, for example. He may have a mortgage on a gaff worth a million. His kids might be at private schools. Fair play to him, he's worked hard for it. But he's frustrated at the legal system, and would like to see a change. He'd like to get involved. But the TDs salary is 50K....so it's not an option for him.

As for people who say that TDs don't work hard, I think they're very mislead. Whatever about people's opinions on the state of the country, TDs seem to me to work crazy crazy hours.

They expense those crazy hours too with the most generous allowances.

Thing is, most TD's are either teachers, publicans, builders, a few solicitors, members of family clans who get in on past good name of parent TD etc.

Now if they had masters degrees in economics etc, you could well say they may deserve 100k pa.

Anyone got a breakdown of what professions TD's have currently?

Terry

gurramok wrote: »

They expense those crazy hours too with the most generous allowances.

Thing is, most TD's are either teachers, publicans, builders, a few solicitors, members of family clans who get in on past good name of parent TD etc.

Now if they had masters degrees in economics etc, you could well say they may deserve 100k pa.

Anyone got a breakdown of what professions TD's have currently?

One of my local TDs was once arrested for picking up male prostitutes in the Phoenix park, if that's any use to you.

He does a good job all the same, so I vote for him at every election.

projectmayhem

Karoma wrote: »

... isn't it also a bit like giving top level management a pay rise for slashing jobs and cutting expenditure?
A fair and honest democratic government is not meant to be so like a business as to have to compete. It's a cushy job at any rate. You also seem to think that these people are otherwise employable. You give too many too much credit.

You're right when talking about the clowns who are receiving this money right now, but the jobs themselves demand a very good wage, as theoretically they're tough jobs that put a hell of a lot of work and/or demand on a person. Also with this wage I think most of them pay some sort of assistant or secretary for an office.

Kinetic^

Dragan wrote: »

Is this not just their equivilent of the bog standard pay rise we all got this year?

Aye pretty much. 2.5% of an increase, big whoop!!! :rolleyes:

I once got a 50% pay rise......but 50% of nothing is nothing so go figure!

MIN2511

Why are some people bothered? They are still getting their increase, not working hard enough and nothing is going to change :P

LovelyHurling

gurramok wrote: »

Thing is, most TD's are either teachers, publicans, builders, a few solicitors, members of family clans who get in on past good name of parent TD etc.

Now if they had masters degrees in economics etc, you could well say they may deserve 100k pa.

Anyone got a breakdown of what professions TD's have currently?

We, the HR people of Ireland TM, have appointed these candidates to their positions aware of their employment history, or with the facility of acquiring that information easily available to us. It's not like some big guy upstairs is appointing these guys. We're the ones doing the hiring here man.

Johnny Utah

I wouldn't even put Martin Cullen in charge of cleaning the floor in McDonald's tbh.

ART6

People in commerce or industry at a simial level of salaries and expenses to TDs generally have to perform, and if they don't they are out. It isn't simply a matter of how many hours they work, and if they don't do the job they don't have the security of only facing dismissal after five years as a result of a public vote by several million people. What we need is a means of measuring actual performance in government and not hours putting bums on seats and acting like spoilt children in so called debates. Then we need a means of rewarding the high performers and of getting rid of the dead wood quickly. If that was the case I would be quite happy to see a TD paid over €100 k. The trouble is, I suspect, that if such a system was introduced Lienster House would empty overnight.:)

The_Minister

Moonbaby wrote: »

My TD is about as useful as a rotting cabbage.
So no.

You have more than one.

The_Minister

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Td's don't have any non-work time really as there's aways consituency things in the evenings and weekends. Even Cowan can't get a holiday in peace, so I think if you count the lack of free time, then they are paid proportionally.

+1
TDs never stop being TDs. Every minute of every day.


BTW, those poll options suck balls.

ninty9er

Dragan wrote: »

Is this not just their equivilent of the bog standard pay rise we all got this year?

Yes.

Tipsy Mac

The_Minister wrote: »

+1
TDs never stop being TDs. Every minute of every day.

To be honest I can never understand this and it's for this reason that the country probably is in such bad shape, you have TD's who will write a letter to the local hosital, local jail, local school etc to get this and that done for their local constituent which is actually not part of their job whatsoever and is actually meaning people at the top of Q's getting skipped over because some moanbag decides to mouth off to his TD.

I think TD's salaries could be doubled or tripled and I would have no problem with it provided the country was run to a level expected. The UK think they are in trouble at the moment with their finances, we on the other hand are proper fcuked.

Stark

Terry wrote: »

One of my local TDs was once arrested for picking up male prostitutes in the Phoenix park, if that's any use to you.

Depends on their price tbh.

ninty9er

gurramok wrote: »

They expense those crazy hours too with the most generous allowances.

Thing is, most TD's are either teachers, publicans, builders, a few solicitors, members of family clans who get in on past good name of parent TD etc.

Now if they had masters degrees in economics etc, you could well say they may deserve 100k pa.

Anyone got a breakdown of what professions TD's have currently?

Principal - €75k+
Publicans - €not a lot
Builders - name one...I can't think of any!
Solicitors - €100k+


There's a lot of TD who are wealthy anyway and don't do this for the money. They work upwards of 80 hours a week and are working even when they're on family holidays. Frankly you can't really pay enough for the inconvenience of this job.

Tipsy Mac wrote:

The UK think they are in trouble at the moment with their finances, we on the other hand are proper fcuked.

In the Chancellor's words; the UK is entering the worst period of economic activity in 60 years.....that's going back almost as far as wartime...we on the other hand are NOT going back to the 80s.

brianthebard

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's a bit like charities paying their CEOs 150k. People think it's madness, and they give out about their money going to "admin costs".

But to lure a top quality businessman away from big business, charities should pay big. These guys can be worth 20 times their salary.

Simliarly, I'm not opposed to paying TDs big money, if it helps attract better people. Whether it does is arguable. But I don't think a pay cut is the way to attract better candidates!

This is complete bull. Politicans are there to serve the people, that should be their reward. I heard FF claim that that to discourage people getting into politics for the back handers they should raise the wages! So they get into it for the pay packet???

Tigger

Stark wrote: »

Depends on their price tbh.

that was a long time ago he'd have got them for half nothing

jesus_thats_gre

Not exactly mega bucks...

Tigger

ninty9er wrote: »

Principal - €75k+
Publicans - €not a lot
Builders - name one...I can't think of any!
Solicitors - €100k+


There's a lot of TD who are wealthy anyway and don't do this for the money. They work upwards of 80 hours a week and are working even when they're on family holidays. Frankly you can't really pay enough for the inconvenience of this job.



In the Chancellor's words; the UK is entering the worst period of economic activity in 60 years.....that's going back almost as far as wartime...we on the other hand are NOT going back to the 80s.

priccaples make €75k
extreeme !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mikemac

A lot of TD's are former teachers.
My own local TD for example and I think Frank Fahy is too.

But they don't ever leave the teaching post, they are on some sort of leave.
So this means a permanant teaching position is denied to a young teacher because a long serving TD won't give thier position up.

They are going to get a permanent teachers penion even if they stoppped teaching 20 years ago, maybe that's fair and maybe it's not.
But it isn't fair to keep their permanant post and deny it to another person. I'm aware a TD can lose their job every 5 years or less but to be a TD for 20 plus years and be a permanent teacher at the same time stinks :mad:

mikemac

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Td's don't have any non-work time really as there's aways consituency things in the evenings and weekends. Even Cowan can't get a holiday in peace, so I think if you count the lack of free time, then they are paid proportionally.

+2

A ministers wage is linked to that of senior civil servants.
So if a principal or assistant secretary of a department is awarded a pay rise then the ministers salary goes up too.
Not sure about TD's but it's ministers who hold all the power anyway.

Anyway a civil servants day can be simply 9-5.
A TD's day never ends and they are hassled for loads of issues like planning permission or potholes and expected to attend funerals.
As jimmy says, Brian Cowen is on holidays but he's still expected to open new facilities and gives quotes to RTE.

Let the td's have their 100k, they deserve it.

anonymous_joe

Hmmm.

Plenty of TD's would be capable of working as a 'higher professional' and easily earning that €100k a year.

This gives two simple reasons to offer them fair/high wages (delete as you find applicable):

1) Prevents them being lost to the private sector

2) Good pay removes the incentive to dabble in corruption.

gurramok

So do any of you who support these increases find it a little bit odd that these public servants get an increase when the public finances are seriously in the red?

This is a basic €100k wage excluding allowances and generous pension. Minster Batt O'Keeffe recently said in regarding to third level fees that only the 'super-wealthy' earning over €100k would have to pay so you know now TD's are super wealthy!

Shouldn't the money go to more worthwhile causes like for example funding that fire engine needed in your local town?

They could set an example but then again thats a very long shot.

ninty9er

gurramok wrote: »

So do any of you who support these increases find it a little bit odd that these public servants get an increase when the public finances are seriously in the red?

This is a basic €100k wage excluding allowances and generous pension. Minster Batt O'Keeffe recently said in regarding to third level fees that only the 'super-wealthy' earning over €100k would have to pay so you know now TD's are super wealthy!

Shouldn't the money go to more worthwhile causes like for example funding that fire engine needed in your local town?

They could set an example but then again thats a very long shot.

I'd be in favour of pay cust across the public sector...and in Lenister House to the same level. €100k is a decent salary, especially for a TD married to a GP, barrister, teacher, Garda etc.... And YES they would be putting themselves in the fee paying catagory, but they know that any family earning over €80/85k can well afford it anyway.

old boy

so you dont know how much top comedians charge for a gig

ninty9er

old boy wrote: »

so you dont know how much top comedians charge for a gig

About €6-8k for 2 hours.

Hanley

ninty9er wrote: »

About €6-8k for 2 hours.

The McSavage family must be VERY well off so...:D

ninty9er

Hanley wrote: »

The McSavage family must be VERY well off so...:D

I wouldn't classify him as a "top comedian":eek::eek:

Hanley

ninty9er wrote: »

I wouldn't classify him as a "top comedian":eek::eek:

I know, but it will make this thread even more interesting!!!

FWIW, I wouldn't change from a well paying profession such as law, medicine or accountancy (and certainly wouldn't turn my back on a role in big business) to be a TD unless I was getting compensated to a similar level.

If you want top guys, you need to pay top dollar. You might pick up a few noble souls who are prepared to take a major pay cut because they have a calling to serve, but lets be real, with a wife and kids to support, most won't!

PrivateEye

No matter who you vote for, the government get in.

Flann O' Brien once said something to the effect that most politicians in Ireland were 'professional politicians' in that nobody would give them a job doing anything else! Its such a gombeen 'jobs for the boys' thing in Ireland it's a wonder anyone takes them seriously. "Ah his Granda fought the Brits!" "Ah he's in the local Gaaaah club" and that kind of nonsense gets people to the council, and from there it's only a matter of time.

Parties like the Labour Party say they follow in the footsteps of people like Mellows and Connolly, but look at what they're taking home. They in particular are a million miles from ordinary workers. Sinn Féin are in government in the North, and their healthservice and the likes are no better than ours. NONE of them deliver. Look at the Greens for god sake, what a fiasco. Worse still, the same idiots will see to it the Greens don't pay for their absolute shambolic display in power when they give them their first preference votes in the locals.

I wouldn't vote in a general election. I vote in referendums, as I think there's far more democracy involved, and I might vote in the locals if somebody runs on the platform of saving a local hospital or something to that effect (not a careerist politician but) It's no wonder young people don't vote.

Why "rock the vote"? How much can you "rock" a system like ours? Send another Shinner or two in and see how long it takes them to drop another policy? Irish politics are about families, bribes and vested interests. Be in Deco Ganley (if he runs) or Bertie Ahern, don't trust one of them.


***I see that wan!<er McSavage mentioned, quicker somebody chucks an unopened bottle of something off his oversized head the better.

tallaght01

brianthebard wrote: »

This is complete bull. Politicans are there to serve the people, that should be their reward. I heard FF claim that that to discourage people getting into politics for the back handers they should raise the wages! So they get into it for the pay packet???

To be honest, I think that's far less intelligent than what I'd said.

I work in a job where I serve the public. But if you dropped my salary significantly, I'd leave. I'm not in it for the money but A) I have commitments every month and To be honest, the public don't treat their public servants well enough to rely on goodwill as sufficient reward in itself.

Similarly, I'd like to leave my current job to take on a more socially responsible role, but I simply couldn't afford to.

kowloon

I have much less of a problem with the pay than I do with the pensions.
With such a generous pension and little to fear other than being voted out it's no wonder our politicians are, by and large, a useless shower of utter eejits .
I say pay them well but without insulating them from the burden of responsibility and the repercussions of incompetence.
Politicians should be model citizens, anything less should not be tolerated and the penalties so harsh that it would be inconceivable to even contemplate ****ing about; only the dedicated and honest should enter public office.

super_furry

A people get the politicians they deserve.

KnifeWRENCH

Yeah I think they deserve their money.

They have to deal with the general public. And a large percentage of the general public are whingey, annoying, braindead cûnts.

I'd expect that much money too if I had to pretend I actually gave a crap about people other than myself.