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Is Dim Mak Real

124

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭spiral


    Sorry Boru I may have missed this , but what does qualified in Western clinical medicine mean exactly ?
    Are you permited to diagnose patients , write prescriptions etc ?
    Just curious asto what exactly it means and why you did the course ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    Boru. wrote: »
    Very true. Which is why I never claim to be. (Though I was given the title of Doctor in the 6th Teaching Hopsital Shanghai - but it doesnt count for much in my opinion and I don't use it or refer to myself as such). I am an Acupuncturist and Traditional Chinese Medical physician. I am qualified in Western Clinical Medicine. I am qualified in several other things too.

    Well my point was, the question posed was "Are you a doctor?" and Your answer was Yes. Now that could have just been you were answering another question. Obviously in this context, Tim uses the word Doctor to describe someone licensed to practice Medicine.

    Again, personally I'd only use the word physician to refer to people that are licensed to practice Medicine not people who took weekend courses in healing. In the same vein I'd only use the term doctor to refer to people with PhDs or licences to practice Medicine.

    This is all probably off-topic but is the institution that gave you your certificate actually accedited to the Higher Education authorities in Ireland (or anywhere). I mean, what's stopping me from converting my garage into the Swords Institute of Alternative Healing, giving people 10 3 hour seminars on Clinical Medicine (I'd cover first aid, the flu, common colds, identification of athletes foot, splinter extraction and head lice removal) and giving people certificates that qualifies them.

    It probably sounds like I'm aiming to be insulting or something but I'm just trying to ascertain the value of your qualifications on which you put so much emphasis. Like I've no idea what M.T.C.M.C.I.means or refers to and I can only speculate you put that in your signature to impress people by bedazzlement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 863 ✭✭✭Mikel


    Boru. wrote: »
    That's one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard on this board.
    How is that ignorant?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    Because it's completely dismissive of all types of alternative therapy. There is a time and a place for treatments such as hypnosis, acupuncture and Chiropractic etc. It's also dismissive of the value of folk knowledge with regard to herbal remedies. There are charlatans in both professions, obviously more so in the much less vigorously regulated alternative/complementary domain.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    spiral wrote: »
    Sorry Boru I may have missed this , but what does qualified in Western clinical medicine mean exactly ?
    Are you permited to diagnose patients , write prescriptions etc ?
    Just curious asto what exactly it means and why you did the course ?

    My Clincial Medical qualification means that I have attained a competancy in the following - Anatomy, Biochemistry, Biostatistics, Cytology, Embryology, Epidemiology, Genetics, Immunology, Microbiology , Neuroscience, Nutrition, Pathology, Pharmacology, Physiology, and Toxicology.

    I do diagnoise patients, though I always refer to a thier primary care physician and work closely with thier GP's if appropriate. I am permitted and do prescirbe blood tests, semen analysis etc. And work closely with hospitals such as the Rotunda, and private facilities such as the SIMS. My speciialty being in Assisted Reproduction Therapies, IVF/IUI support, Infetility etc.

    I did the course because no patient ever will walk into my clinic and say
    they have Spleen Yin Qi Deficency with Dampness in the Lower Burner. They will however walk in and say I have MS or ulcerative colitis. In order to effectively diagnose my patients I felt I had to have an udnerstanding of western diease pathology and thefeifls listed above. It's also vitally important to know the drugs and medication my patients are on and any contraindications that may present.

    This is very off topic so if you'd like to continue just pm me.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 863 ✭✭✭Mikel


    Because it's completely dismissive of all types of alternative therapy. There is a time and a place for treatments such as hypnosis, acupuncture and Chiropractic etc. It's also dismissive of the value of folk knowledge with regard to herbal remedies. There are charlatans in both professions, obviously more so in the much less vigorously regulated alternative/complementary domain.
    No, it's dismissive of things which can't be shown to work.
    The terms "Western Medicine" and "Eastern Medicine" are ridiculous.
    There's "Medicine" and "Charlatanism".
    If it works and be proven to do so it goes in the first category.
    If not, the second.
    This is what was quoted.

    If a 'remedy' is tested, and is shown to have a beneficial effect in a double blind study, it 'works' and it becomes 'medicine'.
    The term 'alternative medicine' is an oxymoron.
    It's also dismissive of the value of folk knowledge with regard to herbal remedies.
    Interesting case in point.
    If a herbal remedy works it's because of a chemical compound it contains.
    If this is determined it can be tested for safety and prescribed.
    Then it's called MEDICINE.
    If not, well then it being peddled as having properties which it does not possess.
    Charlatanism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    Well my point was, the question posed was "Are you a doctor?" and Your answer was Yes. Now that could have just been you were answering another question. Obviously in this context, Tim uses the word Doctor to describe someone licensed to practice Medicine.

    Again, personally I'd only use the word physician to refer to people that are licensed to practice Medicine not people who took weekend courses in healing. In the same vein I'd only use the term doctor to refer to people with PhDs or licences to practice Medicine.

    This is all probably off-topic but is the institution that gave you your certificate actually accedited to the Higher Education authorities in Ireland (or anywhere). I mean, what's stopping me from converting my garage into the Swords Institute of Alternative Healing, giving people 10 3 hour seminars on Clinical Medicine (I'd cover first aid, the flu, common colds, identification of athletes foot, splinter extraction and head lice removal) and giving people certificates that qualifies them.

    It probably sounds like I'm aiming to be insulting or something but I'm just trying to ascertain the value of your qualifications on which you put so much emphasis. Like I've no idea what M.T.C.M.C.I.means or refers to and I can only speculate you put that in your signature to impress people by bedazzlement.

    My apologies, but on reading back my replky I can understand where that may have been inferred. No I was not saying yes I am a doctor, I was saying yes tim I'll clarify. I would agree with you about the term doctor, which depsite reciving that titel I do not use., NO peer reviewed work was necesaary to earn it and thus I don't consider it valid. With that said however, my course was not a "weekend course", in fact the total hours opver 4 years were longer than my degree from UCD. This again has been supplemented with full time work in Chinese hosptials, iternships and continuing education - in fact I began another course today to increase my knowledge base and treatment modalities.

    As for the off topic part, it is, but sine you've mentioned it I am happy answer. Yes, my qualifications and the courses I took are recognized by the Higher education authorities not only here but in the UK, and China. Furthermore they are recognzied by a number of societies, regulatory bodies and insurance compaines such as BUPA, VHI, QUINN, VIVAS etc.

    As regards the other point about setting up the school - you could of course issuse diplomas and certs; but they wouldn't be recognized by an mainstream organsiation or regulatory body - unfortunately anyone on this board is as entitiled as I am leagally to cal themselves an acupuncturist which is why it so important to make sure that the practicitioner you are seeking treatment from is from a qualified school and has a legitimate base of knowledge.

    This is why I am proud to add letters such as M.T.CM.C.I after my name - they mean I am a member of the Traditional Chinese Medical Council of Ireland and that my qualifications and standards are regoinzed the hte primary regularoty body of the country. I am also a member of the Acupuncture Foundation Professional Association, and several other groups lobbying for stricter controls on the industry. To prevent such unscrupulous practitioners such as the Acupuncutre and Herbs chains from damaging not only patients but the reputation of this medical system


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    Mikel I took you up wrong there. I see the way you make the distinction. Thanks for explaining that part.

    again curious
    My Clincial Medical qualification means that I have attained a competancy in the following - Anatomy, Biochemistry, Biostatistics, Cytology, Embryology, Epidemiology, Genetics, Immunology, Microbiology , Neuroscience, Nutrition, Pathology, Pharmacology, Physiology, and Toxicology.

    I've a Science degree from TCD, a BA with a moderatorship in Zoology. This was 4 years of full time education (obviously 4 college years, not 4 * 12). And I'd taken modules on almost all the topics you've mentioned above. I can't imagine how you'd achieve competency in all those subjects, without taking the equivalent of 3 years full time education. Like a M.Sc in Neuroscience in TCD is 12 months (which involves a thesis) which basically condenses 2 years of neuroscience into one. This course would presume an undergraduate degree in biology.

    Obviously my curiously is based on your meaning of the word competency? Is competency a 3 hour lecture or is it 3 year degree.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Boru. wrote: »
    I am a member of the Traditional Chinese Medical Council of Ireland
    Are you a member of ther Irish Medical Council and do they recognise your qualifications?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    Mikel I took you up wrong there. I see the way you make the distinction. Thanks for explaining that part.

    again curious



    I've a Science degree from TCD, a BA with a moderatorship in Zoology. This was 4 years of full time education (obviously 4 college years, not 4 * 12). And I'd taken modules on almost all the topics you've mentioned above. I can't imagine how you'd achieve competency in all those subjects, without taking the equivalent of 3 years full time education. Like a M.Sc in Neuroscience in TCD is 12 months (which involves a thesis) which basically condenses 2 years of neuroscience into one. This course would presume an undergraduate degree in biology.

    Obviously my curiously is based on your meaning of the word competency? Is competency a 3 hour lecture or is it 3 year degree.

    No problem. My qualification would not be a TCD degree standard, a UCD one perhaps ;-). It took 4 years, not including my full time internship in the 6th teaching Hospital in Shaghai (45 hour week for 2 months). I'd estimate it at about 210 lecture hours per year, not including private study or clincial practice, which added would double that number. Compared to a UCD degree which would be between 220 - 288 hours per year over 3 years you can see it's quite comparable. Particularly if you take into account clinical practice, it would be in excess of the UCD degree.

    This is the first time I actually have run those numbers though = the important thing for me, is not so much the qualification, but the the fact that I get results for my patients. It really doesn't matter how many years you study, if you can't produce results you shouldn't been doing it.

    The reason I take pride in my qualifications is one, because I made a point NOT to coast through like so many do, but worked bloody hard and as such have, what is considered by my peers and other medical professional a very comprehensive understanding of both the TCM based medical model and the western one, again particularly when coming to my specialty of ART. The seconds is that my qualifications are recognized as some of the best in Ireland and the Uk and assure my patients, insuracne compnaies and referring medical professionals of the high standard of knowledge and care that my patients recieve.

    This in turn increasingly helps the general public and the medical industry to increasingly accept and legitimize acupuncunture and TCM in association and conjunction with conventional treatment modalities. This benefits everyone. As we have increasing options to maintain our health and well ebing in the face of the increasing distrust of the medical system here and the increasing failure of pharmaceuticals to accurately ensure our optimal health.

    But this is really getting off topic no?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    Are you a member of ther Irish Medical Council and do they recognise your qualifications?

    Nope. I'm not a doctor of western medicine. I'm an acupuncturist. Currently the Irish Medical Council do not recognize a Chinese Medical Qualification of any level - nor should they, it's a totally different system. Nor would I of course be a member of the Irish Medical Council - we have out own - the TCMCI, with an equally strict system of ethics guidelines etc, of which I am a recognized member, and AFPA etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    Mikel wrote: »
    There's a difference between being open minded and being gullible.
    The tired old argument that we used to think the world was flat is often trotted out to show that science isn't the be all and end all.
    But people who say that miss the point. Science is the only model which tries to prove itself wrong. Hence there was evidence that the earth was round and the perceived wisdom changed.
    Not so with other methods, which only have longevity to back them up.
    Things are dismissed or ignored by science only when there is no evidence
    to back them up.
    Knowledge is an incremental process, not so with charlatanism.
    Homeopathy et al spring up from the ground fully formed.

    Ancient cultures used to sacrifice people to volcanoes, I really wish they weren't held up as medical experts.

    i totally agree with the first statement you made here and most of the rest.

    but ancient cultures did understand the workings of the natural world and indeed the stars and planets much better than the western cultures that developed later.

    i find it an odd notion that people today would think that people 2,3,4,5,6,7...10,000 years ago were not as intelligent as we are today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    pma-ire wrote: »
    i find it an odd notion that people today would think that people 2,3,4,5,6,7...10,000 years ago were not as intelligent as we are today.
    Um...

    Aside from having a greater understanding of... everything... you mean? For every time people got things right in terms of which plants to use when someone got a rash or a mosquito bite, or how to fix a broken leg, there was probably 100 times where they put leeches on things, sacrificed a goat to cure a fever or prayed to cure a brain tumor. Does that make them stupid? No, but it does make them more ignorant than us through no fault of their own.

    I can't remember the book but it may well be The End of Faith by Sam Harris, where the author says that if we could transport the most intelligent man from the 1600s to the present day, that he would be hopelessly ignorant. He would believe all sorts of things about the universe that would be totally ridiculous to you and I. Like or no, the bulk of what we know about the human body, medicine and the human body has been discovered in the last 300 years.

    As for "alternative therapies". I leave people off because they're entitled to believe whatever they want. What would irritate me is that if insurance companies began to raise premiums because they provided cover for all sorts of quackery. I'd like to see how much crystal therapy costs Vivas to cover, and how much of that is passed on to me. At the moment our local community resource centre is running an Angel Therapy programme which, like all of their courses is subsidised by the taxpayer so the punter gets it for say €5 per session rather than €10. This sort of stuff creeps up on us. 10 years ago nobody knew what angel therapy was but now we have book shops with angel sections. You can't make it up- Literally, more and more people every year believe in fairies.

    Now we can be all open minded and say "Oh yes but it's ancient and we must not opress people blah blah blah". But there may come a time where someone you know is sick and desperate, and be taken in by this sort of nonsense (believe me I know from bitter, painful experience that if you're the skeptic you will be the bad guy when this happens). There may even come a time where once again your government may have to ceed to the wishes of a religious group in major decisions affecting us all. So I'm done being nice to mumbo jumbo peddlers.

    Now I'm all for including differing types of medicinal treatments, and as I have said I seemed to get benefit from accupuncture before, but not as the arrive (as Mikel said) ready made and ready to treat with "thousands of years" of un-empirical, anecdotal, tribal quackery to back them up. If they go away and test and prove then welcome to the fold. If not, then chuck them out with human sacrifices.

    It's not new therapies that I'm afraid of, it's the people who won't throw the old ones out.
    Sorry if all that is a rant but it's a subject I have quite strong opinions on... obviously.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Roper wrote: »
    . At the moment our local community resource centre is running an Angel Therapy programme which, like all of their courses is subsidised by the taxpayer so the punter gets it for say €5 per session rather than €10.
    would it be possible to argue this is a waste of public money
    10 years ago nobody knew what angel therapy was but now we have book shops with angel sections.
    They used to put folk in institutions for talking to angels now they charge them money


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭SorGan


    would it be possible to argue this is a waste of public money
    They used to put folk in institutions for talking to angels now they charge them money

    no argument necessary, its bullsh1t...angels???:pac::pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    SorGan wrote: »
    no argument necessary:pac::pac:
    Sorry did not make myself clear. I mean i have seen a community partnership' type organisation building be used to host such a programme. Would it be possible to make a formal objection to the source of the funding that it is a waste. I am not sure where they are funded from? I think it is NDP


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    well i wouldn't object personally because at the end of the day it's a couple of nutters meeting up doing something positive for an hour a week. i wouldn't go and try and shut it down because i felt at the end of the day, the source of it was pure nonsense. If we shut the angel therapies down we'd have to shut half the martial arts clubs down :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    well i wouldn't object personally because at the end of the day it's a couple of nutters meeting up doing something positive for an hour a week. i wouldn't go and try and shut it down because i felt at the end of the day, the source of it was pure nonsense. If we shut the angel therapies down we'd have to shut half the martial arts clubs down :)
    The idea that this is harmless only extends until someone desperate and deluded tries to use "alternative" therapy instead of medicine. I don't like people knowing my business but I've seen it happen up close and personal and thankfully someone is doing quite well now, but it took estrangement of family, serious arguments and the possibility of legal action between people who love each other to make that happen. I may never talk to someone I care about again but I know I've done the right thing and someone is alive because of taking a stance against a deluded individual who encouraged someone to walk away from medicine. The worst thing is that nobody was sinister or money grabbing or anything like that. People were just so hoplessly beguiled by the possibility of a miracle, painless cure that they grasped it. It happens everywhere.

    Besides that, my community centre is run with public money. If people want to pray to their guardian angels they can rent a room anywhere but all the courses are subsidised afaik.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 319 ✭✭daveywavey08


    Is dim mak real?

    No.

    Thread over.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 830 ✭✭✭Judomad


    im sorry but ehhh YAWWWWWWWWWWN

    oh and thanks for the reply April but you really didnt get the effect you wanted im afraid..


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Regardless of my personal belief that Dim Mak is not real, but lets set that aside for a moment.

    For those who believe it may be possible. Do you think it would be practical, or even possible to apply its principals in a dynamic struggle (as no fight is static), where the assailant has real intent to do you damage? Will you be able to get the perfect shot while you're under adrenal stress and fear? Also while you are taking and receiving blunt force trauma.

    Have you ever used it in such a circumstance? If not, how can you be sure it will work under duress?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Judomad wrote: »
    im sorry but ehhh YAWWWWWWWWWWN

    oh and thanks for the reply April but you really didnt get the effect you wanted im afraid..
    how do you know what effect i wanted?;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 830 ✭✭✭Judomad


    how do you know what effect i wanted?;)

    ?????????????????????

    meaning........

    with your correction of spelling mistakes i pressumed you were looking to get under my skin but im afraid you failed, but its ok, well let it slip this time...:p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Judomad wrote: »
    ?????????????????????

    meaning........

    with your correction of spelling mistakes i pressumed you were looking to get under my skin but im afraid you failed, but its ok, well let it slip this time...:p
    you pressumed ;)mmmm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    you pressumed ;)mmmm

    April without been funny, slagging people over spelling is down right ignorant-for all you know he is dyslexic or whatever the spelling is for that..

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭iceage


    I'm not dislocksic....I just can't spell. relax guys;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    cowzerp wrote: »
    April without been funny, slagging people over spelling is down right ignorant-for all you know he is dyslexic or whatever the spelling is for that..
    relax we are only having a joke between us right Judomad?if you took it as an insult my sincere apologies


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 830 ✭✭✭Judomad


    relax we are only having a joke between us right Judomad?if you took it as an insult my sincere apologies

    yeah its all a joke, including dum muck :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 753 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    April and judomad should get a room!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭mickoo


    dim muck is stupid, wizardry etc..


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