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Is Dim Mak Real

135

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Tim_Murphy wrote: »
    You mean I don't normally? :eek:

    You have your days-:P

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 830 ✭✭✭Judomad


    Colm do us all a favour and close this stupid thread, in fairness dum mak is a joke and isnt real and this isn't the sci-fi forum so theres no place here for it in my opinion!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭Rob Carry


    Here's a clip of a guy actually being killed with one of these moves:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKAraSljMKA

    Seriously though, I can't believe the lads in some of the first few videos actually thought that saying 'it only works on people who believe' was a legitimate argument. There doesn't seem to be any evidence whatsoever that this stuff works.

    I'd love to see someone try to break out some of those moves in a nightclub carpark at 3 in the mornin: 'get back or I'll Chi the sh1t out of you!'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Judomad wrote: »
    Colm do us all a favour and close this stupid thread, in fairness dum mak is a joke and isnt real and this isn't the sci-fi forum so theres no place here for it in my opinion!!!
    Whys should it be closed cos you say its stupid. Is anyone forcing you to read it? You cannot even spell it
    dum mak


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 830 ✭✭✭Judomad


    Whys should it be closed cos you say its stupid. Is anyone forcing you to read it? You cannot even spell it

    no offence april, i spellt it wrong purposely. dum as in dumb!! and its getting rediculous with some of the things being said and being linked, does any (sane) person here think that you can make someone do 17 and a half flips without touching them, seriously, a double leg take down, mount and GnP would be way more realistic and effective in the real world, not the magical kingdom which is Dumb Muck(purposely spellt wrong again april just so your not confussed)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Judomad wrote: »
    no offence april,
    none taken but it was serious question given claims of some
    i spellt it wrong purposely. dum as in dumb!!
    very gud!
    purposely spellt wrong again april just so your not confussed)
    I don't do confusion:D:D Did you purposely spell spellt wrong?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Dave Joyce


    As I said, the machine I think is used to measure Qi but I could be wrong and have no idea what it was called or where it was. Master Yang mentioned it during one of his visits some years back. Well I'm not an acupuncturist and certainly not in a position to offer an experts explanation, but I have had many treatments for many different injuries particularly when I was still fighting and it worked fine for me (and many many others with a variety of illnesses/problems)....must have all been a placebo effect each and every time:rolleyes:. Fair enough I suppose the point about the health companies and their willingness to engage in anything to further their profits is not the best but acupuncture is becoming more widely accepted treatment alongside conventional medicine for SOME conditions.

    I notice that a lot of posters are concentrating on the more sensational stuff such as no touch knockouts (which are total BS of the highest order) and haven't commented on the acceptance of Dian Xue type concepts in Muaythai, Silat and Filipino martial arts. I'm not really bothered about convincing others but just giving MY answer/opinion to the OP's question.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Dave Joyce wrote: »
    Well I'm not an acupuncturist and certainly not in a position to offer an experts explanation, but I have had many treatments for many different injuries particularly when I was still fighting and it worked fine for me (and many many others with a variety of illnesses/problems)....must have all been a placebo effect each and every time

    I've had accupuncture as well, however it wasn't to cure impotence, harness my mystical force or anything like that. It was as for a back muscle injury and it seemed to help but he did other things too so it's hard to tell which was effective. There is some evidence (scientific) that acupuncture has some merit, just not for the reasons people think! Sometimes all the mumbo jumbo has a very simple explanation behind it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    cowzerp wrote: »
    pma-ire, simple question?
    can you do the no touch knock out?

    i don't believe in them, and our group do not practice them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    Tim_Murphy wrote: »
    Well whats your definition?

    If you take to mean your CNS and how it works then why use the term Qi or Chi or whatever at all? Why use an ill defined term, which different people take to mean different things?

    i don't talk about Chi in anything i do.

    i've done Chi stuff over the years and what it is or what another culture calls it is of no concern to me really.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    i really think that people need to separate the notion of Chi and Dim Mak/pressure points being linked.

    in my group we do not worry about how or why a pressure point works, only that it does.

    if people want to take any of the meanings given as fact then fine. but it really makes no odds to the techniques being effective or not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    I am an acupuncturist. I am also qualified in Western Clincial Medicine. I also do a lot of research on the subject and have a vast wealth of studies conclusively showing acupuncture works for a vareity of conditions - not all as some claim but many. And works quite well.

    With that said - QI is a concept, it's not a provable thing. Any one that has device that measure's Qi, Chi, Ki, Prana etc should be treated with skepticism. It's the equivilvent of saying you have a device that measures religious belief in an objctive scientific manner, in other words highly unlikely.

    As Roper said there is a rational and medical explanation for Acupuncture's effect, and has nothing to do with Qi. It's a combination of increased neurological activity in the nerves where needles are placed, increased blood flow and circulation of the lympathic, increased chemical response in the brain as a result of needling and the activation and deactivation of eletrical stimulous in the brain (as shown on MRI etc). This is all verfiably shown in double blind trials, placebo based controls etc.

    Simply put 3,000 years ago in China they didn't have clear understanding of the bio-eletrical process of the human body, but they identified it was there and knew how to manipulate it. They called this energy they manipulated Qi.

    As for Dim Mak, I suggest a selection of reading materials by Dr. Ting Leung, where he exposes the cons, tricks and equipment used to make simple folk believe in the existence of Qi as a force that could be used to attack people without touching them.

    I can easily make people fall backwards without touching them, make candle flames go out by pointing at them and make may body imprevious to having a baseball smashed across it none of which involes Qi. It does involve knowing how the body's balance can be disrupted by having people stand in a particular way and close their eyes, how to rig a candle wick to have it stop burning after a certain time, and how to dry out wood without seemingly to have changed it.

    It's a con job. And poor magic tircks. I'll put it this way. Can David Copperfield fly? No. He uses wirrors. The only difference is he tells you it's an illusion.

    Now back on the subject of Dim Mak, if I press a nerve bundle on your hand it will cause pain (Li-4). If I press a nerve bundle on the medial aspect promixal to the edpicondyle of the elbow it will hurt and your arm will tingle. You will mostly like raise up on your tip toes to avoid the pain and pressure. It is not manipulating qi, it's placing pressure on nerve bundles. The amount of pain caused varies from person to person and their tolerances.

    If I hit a series of nerve bundles or pressure points I can over load the nervous system and induce an altered state of conciosuness - even a knock out. If you've ever been given a dead arm or dead leg, then you've experienced Dim Mak. Do I have deadly magic, no. I have an idiot that is standing there and willing and letting me do this. If he moved or resisted at all, it wouldn't work.

    Can anyone use pressure points to make their combat technqiues better, certainly. I recommend several dim mak points - eyes, face, throat, groin you know the areas people hit anyway. The soft spots much easier to hit and more effective. If someone is wearing a thick leather jacket and punching you repaedly in the face going for a Dim Mak knock out is just a really stupid idea. I'd just hit the guy a lot.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 711 ✭✭✭who007


    t-ha wrote: »
    I don't think so - they can measure electro-magnetic fields (created by all living things) and so on, but I've never heard of people being able to measure "Qi".


    I always assumed that chi was an early interpretation of electro-magnetic fields, and so I am a believer to that extent. Yogis can lower their heart rate through breathing and that works on electrical impulses, why would it be so hard to believe that someone who exercised their mind-body focus to this extent might not be able to subtly alter other bio-electrical fields around themselves or others?
    Baggio... wrote: »
    What more proof do you need after this? Here's the true Chi in action....:pac:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKtK-ifyasc



    Unfortunately they don't allow you to leave comments. Which is a pity, as I was just about to say how lovey, and honest both men are.

    OK that deserves the capital O-M-G :eek:, girlie as that may be.. I couldn't stop laughing at first, only to become perturbed by the inability to comprehend what kind of mental state of existance they are in to participate in that! Scary scary stuff.... and I don't mean the "martial arts" part...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Well I'm not an acupuncturist and certainly not in a position to offer an experts explanation, but I have had many treatments for many different injuries particularly when I was still fighting and it worked fine for me
    It may well work, I don’t know. But as Barry points out, even if it does have a beneficial effect that does not automatically mean that the original reasoning behind it is sound.
    have all been a placebo effect each and every time
    Placebo can be a very powerful effect. There was a very interesting article about it in New Scientist last week or the week before (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg19926701.600-why-the-placebo-effect-is-rewriting-the-medical-rulebook.html).

    Paul,
    i don't talk about Chi in anything i do.

    i've done Chi stuff over the years and what it is or what another culture calls it is of no concern to me really.
    so why the original comment? What do you mean by ‘what another culture call it’? Chi is a foreign term to us.

    Boru,
    I am also qualified in Western Clincial Medicine.
    If you don’t mind, qualified as what exactly? Are you a doctor? I’m just curious as I’ve never heard somebody say they are qualified in “Western” medicine before.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    Yes Tim, to clarify I am qualifed in Clinical Medicine. I use the term "Western" to differenciate from my training in Eastern Medicine and Traditional Chinese Medicine as I have seperate qualifications in both and they are seperate systems of medicine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    Tim_Murphy wrote: »
    Paul,
    so why the original comment? What do you mean by ‘what another culture call it’? Chi is a foreign term to us.

    Tim I think that Boru is named Paul also :D

    anyway! what i meant by my comment was that i have practiced Chi development and use. which has led me to come to my own conclusion as to what it is. but this is only my own opinion and in no way would change the views of other people who have come to their own.

    i think we had a PM conversation about stuff like this before and i might have mentioned my view on this among other linked ideas?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 863 ✭✭✭Mikel


    Boru. wrote: »
    Yes Tim, to clarify I am qualifed in Clinical Medicine. I use the term "Western" to differenciate from my training in Eastern Medicine and Traditional Chinese Medicine as I have seperate qualifications in both and they are seperate systems of medicine.
    The terms "Western Medicine" and "Eastern Medicine" are ridiculous.
    There's "Medicine" and "Charlatanism".
    If it works and be proven to do so it goes in the first category.
    If not, the second.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭vasch_ro


    pma-ire wrote: »
    something yes, enough to explain properly no.

    i've made loads and loads of posts on this subject and explained the view of my association and myself to the point of exaustion.

    it's easy to mock and ridicule with very little words. it takes more effort to explain a position.

    i have other commitments at the moment and do not have the time to put into something i have written out many, many, many times on this very forum.

    I did not mean to mock or ridicule, I just thought its was amusing at the time, but reading above I now understand were you are coming from


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    vasch_ro wrote: »
    I did not mean to mock or ridicule, I just thought its was amusing at the time, but reading above I now understand were you are coming from

    ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    Mikel wrote: »
    The terms "Western Medicine" and "Eastern Medicine" are ridiculous.
    There's "Medicine" and "Charlatanism".
    If it works and be proven to do so it goes in the first category.
    If not, the second.

    my personal opinion on this is that there is "Medicine" and "Shamanisn".

    many things that have now been exlained or discovered in the last 50 years were once things of fiction or recorded in ancient records and dismissed as same.

    we (as a world culture) would be wrong to dismiss or ignore things that do not fit into our perception of the truth of the world.

    remember at one time the popular view was that the world was flat and the sun moved around the earth. people lost their life for going against this notion at one period in time.

    i am talking about Chi/Energy here and not pressure points as i see pp's as physical and Chi/Energy as another matter.

    what happens when we dismiss things in this manner is that they do not remain at the forefront of scientific research and so remain in the sphere of fiction. this is until they are discovered/rediscovered by mistake or by persons who persue information outside the scientific norm.

    :eek: what a waffle :) but i hope i got my point across :D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    Tim_Murphy wrote: »
    Placebo can be a very powerful effect. There was a very interesting article about it in New Scientist last week or the week before (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg19926701.600-why-the-placebo-effect-is-rewriting-the-medical-rulebook.html).

    The human body is an amazing thing. The brain is even more amazing and once we give it something to help focus it we can affect our physical body without the use of medicine.

    What we use to give us that focus can be religion, an idea, an image or a state of mind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 863 ✭✭✭Mikel


    pma-ire wrote: »
    my personal opinion on this is that there is "Medicine" and "Shamanisn".

    many things that have now been exlained or discovered in the last 50 years were once things of fiction or recorded in ancient records and dismissed as same.

    we (as a world culture) would be wrong to dismiss or ignore things that do not fit into our perception of the truth of the world.

    remember at one time the popular view was that the world was flat and the sun moved around the earth. people lost their life for going against this notion at one period in time.

    i am talking about Chi/Energy here and not pressure points as i see pp's as physical and Chi/Energy as another matter.

    what happens when we dismiss things in this manner is that they do not remain at the forefront of scientific research and so remain in the sphere of fiction. this is until they are discovered/rediscovered by mistake or by persons who persue information outside the scientific norm.

    :eek: what a waffle :) but i hope i got my point across :D
    There's a difference between being open minded and being gullible.
    The tired old argument that we used to think the world was flat is often trotted out to show that science isn't the be all and end all.
    But people who say that miss the point. Science is the only model which tries to prove itself wrong. Hence there was evidence that the earth was round and the perceived wisdom changed.
    Not so with other methods, which only have longevity to back them up.
    Things are dismissed or ignored by science only when there is no evidence
    to back them up.
    Knowledge is an incremental process, not so with charlatanism.
    Homeopathy et al spring up from the ground fully formed.

    Ancient cultures used to sacrifice people to volcanoes, I really wish they weren't held up as medical experts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭SorGan


    Mikel wrote: »
    There's a difference between being open minded and being gullible.
    The tired old argument that we used to think the world was flat is often trotted out to show that science isn't the be all and end all.
    But people who say that miss the point. Science is the only model which tries to prove itself wrong. Hence there was evidence that the earth was round and the perceived wisdom changed.
    Not so with other methods, which only have longevity to back them up.
    Things are dismissed or ignored by science only when there is no evidence
    to back them up.

    Knowledge is an incremental process, not so with charlatanism.
    Homeopathy et al spring up from the ground fully formed.

    Ancient cultures used to sacrifice people to volcanoes, I really wish they weren't held up as medical experts.

    bs. Things are dismissed or ignored by science when they dont fall into mainstream thinking,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    SorGan wrote: »
    bs. Things are dismissed or ignored by science when they dont fall into mainstream thinking,


    No thats bs, if its proved by science it would become part of mainstream thinking, pressure points exist but its got to do with the nervous system and not chi! this is simple, and there not like people think, as in people get hit in pressure points all the time and nothing happens.

    in all the combat i've watched i've only ever seen knock outs by punch to the jaw, that messes up the electrical flow to the brain temporarily, blow to the head, simple brain trauma or rarely a viscious body shot that just knocks the wind out of you affecting your breathing.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    Tim_Murphy wrote: »
    Boru,
    If you don’t mind, qualified as what exactly? Are you a doctor? I’m just curious as I’ve never heard somebody say they are qualified in “Western” medicine before.
    Boru. wrote: »
    Yes Tim, to clarify I am qualifed in Clinical Medicine. I use the term "Western" to differenciate from my training in Eastern Medicine and Traditional Chinese Medicine as I have seperate qualifications in both and they are seperate systems of medicine.

    I'm pretty sure a Certificate in "Western Clincial Medicine" from the Lansdowne College of Acupuncture and Complementary Medicine doesn't qualify you as a Doctor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 863 ✭✭✭Mikel


    SorGan wrote: »
    bs. Things are dismissed or ignored by science when they dont fall into mainstream thinking,
    Example?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭SorGan


    cowzerp wrote: »
    No thats bs, if its proved by science it would become part of mainstream thinking, pressure points exist but its got to do with the nervous system and not chi! this is simple, and there not like people think, as in people get hit in pressure points all the time and nothing happens.

    in all the combat i've watched i've only ever seen knock outs by punch to the jaw, that messes up the electrical flow to the brain temporarily, blow to the head, simple brain trauma or rarely a viscious body shot that just knocks the wind out of you affecting your breathing.

    yes "if" proven, but ignored and dismissed as non mainstream till then.:D
    nitpicking i know..
    personally id like to see it proven (weather or not it exists) that it has any worth in a combat system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭SorGan


    Mikel wrote: »
    Example?

    hypnosis:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    Mikel wrote: »
    The terms "Western Medicine" and "Eastern Medicine" are ridiculous.
    There's "Medicine" and "Charlatanism".
    If it works and be proven to do so it goes in the first category.
    If not, the second.

    That's one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard on this board.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    I'm pretty sure a Certificate in "Western Clincial Medicine" from the Lansdowne College of Acupuncture and Complementary Medicine doesn't qualify you as a Doctor.

    Very true. Which is why I never claim to be. (Though I was given the title of Doctor in the 6th Teaching Hopsital Shanghai - but it doesnt count for much in my opinion and I don't use it or refer to myself as such). I am an Acupuncturist and Traditional Chinese Medical physician. I am qualified in Western Clinical Medicine. I am qualified in several other things too.


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