Cycling article in the Irish Times

Gavin

A reasonable article that takes a fairly neutral stance on helmets and bike safety
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0828/1219680139697.html

DCC come across well, apart from their slightly odd focus on girls uniforms

The Dublin Cycle Campaign (DCC), in a submission to the Department of Transport's national cycle policy last December, said: "Girls-only schools all have a uniform policy that requires the wearing of skirts and this is the main reason why girls do not cycle. So, policy change required straight away there. The Department of Education will have to deal with a change in uniform-wearing policy."

Muireann O'Dea, membership secretary at the DCC, echoes this: "Wearing helmets and hi-vis jackets is definitely a disincentive for children, particularly girls, who are image-conscious."

But others, including the Dublin Transportation Office (DTO) - who have run the travel section of the pilot Green Schools scheme - aren't so certain how image conscious girls are.

"The DTO would agree that a significant challenge in cycling promotion exists regarding post-primary children, but would not discriminate based on gender, and would not venture to suggest what the reasons for this might be without undertaking research," said spokeswoman Sara Morris. The agency points out how the initiative "is helping achieve growth in cycling numbers in participating schools".

I did find it annoying reading it with all the references to here & there given they were talking about Copenhagen one minute (here) and then Ireland the next (here).

conor rowan

i still think the main deterrant to more people cycling is the rain.

kenmc

conor rowan wrote: »

i still think the main deterrant to more people cycling is the perceived rain.

Fixed that for you. I rarely get wet, and I almost never get saturated. I think I read somewhere that Dublin is less rainy than copenhagen.... - or ceraintly somewhere more european which is very cyclist-centric

PeadarofAodh

Seconded. People seem to have the misconception that it rains in Ireland 24 hrs a day. I walk to work and reckon it must be at least 3-4 weeks since I had to carry an umbrella with me on the way in.

seamus

Indeed. Overall, the rain in Dublin comes in sheets - there were two weeks there where it rained at some point pretty much every day but I only actually got wet about 4 out of ten of those days.

Since the start of this week though, although it's been overcast and you get the impression that it's going to rain, it hasn't been wet at all.

I've only been completely soaked through about four times this year, and the total number of days which have had rain/wet roads while I've been going in & out probably number less than 20.

kmick

seamus wrote: »

I've only been completely soaked through about four times this year, and the total number of days which have had rain/wet roads while I've been going in & out probably number less than 20.

I would agree with these figures however it just a convenient excuse for people who are too lazy to cycle. The sad thing is it is a lot quicker, less stressful and cheaper than the bus or driving. Mind you sometimes I am glad there are not too many cyclists given the current behaviour.

petethedrummer

"Girls-only schools all have a uniform policy that requires the wearing of skirts and this is the main reason why girls do not cycle"

Having been in Copenhagen last week, I can tell you its possible to cycle in a skirt and high-heels. not that I tried myself, but lots of the girls there did. They cycled to and from nightclubs/pubs. It was great to see the amount of bike use. Bikes aboslutely everywhere, I was fairly stunned.

I think we need to lose the dog eat dog attitude on irish roads. That goes for cyclists and motorists. People seem to go to unnecessary risks to gain a few seconds on the road here. The Danish drivers were unbelievably considerate to cyclists and the cyclists by and large obeyed traffic lights. Unlike here.

kenmc

petethedrummer wrote: »

Having been in Copenhagen last week, I can tell you its possible to cycle in a skirts and high-heels. not that I tried myself, but lots of the girls there did. They cycled to and from nightclubs/pubs. It was great to see the amount of bike use. Bikes aboslutely everywhere, I was fairly stunned.

Holland is exactly the same. You'll even see couples going out on the town, both dressed to the nines, him cycling and her side-saddle on the carrier! You also see girls cycling in heels and skirts themselves.

And Holland gets a LOT colder in winter than we do, I remember there being snow down for quite a few days, and temperatures of -10 were not uncommon. I was wearing snowboarding gloves for my commute during the depths of it! Brrrrr

TinyExplosions

Speaking of Copenhagen...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/2760147555/

from the fantastic copenhagencyclechic.com/

Stark

kmick wrote: »

I would agree with these figures however it just a convenient excuse for people who are too lazy to cycle. The sad thing is it is a lot quicker, less stressful and cheaper than the bus or driving.

Yeah the only times I've been soaked through are when I made the mistake of waiting for a bus in the rain instead of just cycling the distance. You get a lot wetter standing around for 20 mins than you do moving for 20 mins I find. A lot colder too.

kmick wrote: »

Mind you sometimes I am glad there are not too many cyclists given the current behaviour.

Behaviour of other cyclists or motorists? Limited cycling space aside, I prefer to cycle a route that's used by a lot of cyclists myself from a safety in numbers point of view. I find drivers along these roads are more used to people cycling.

Explosive_Cornflake

One thing Copenhagen has over us is fantastic cycle lanes. Their roads are much wider than ours though, so it wouldn't really be possible to fit them in now.
I noticed that cycle lanes get priority over road lanes though, there was one point where the road narrows to one lane (priority in one direction, still a two lane road), just to preserve the full sized cycle lanes on either side. That is something you would never find in Ireland.
Here's a pic of (a) great lane(s)

kenmc

Stark wrote: »

Behaviour of other cyclists or motorists? Limited cycling space aside, I prefer to cycle a route that's used by a lot of cyclists myself from a safety in numbers point of view. I find drivers along these roads are more used to people cycling.

It's a bit of a double-edged sword really. More cyclists mean that drivers are more used to cyclists, certainly.
However more cyclists also means that the chances of encountering a wobbler who insists on plodding along barely above walking pace, yet when they get to a traffic light also insist on getting to the front of the queue, whereupon they either sit there waiting for lights to become a nicer shade of green, or they wobble along again veering all over the place until they eventually get both feet on the pedals and some momentum. I wonder sometimes if the stabalizers have been taken off too early.

petethedrummer

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Speaking of Copenhagen...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/2760147555/

from the fantastic copenhagencyclechic.com/

hot girl + bike = maximum sexiness (Copenhagen was unbelievable in this regard).

ROK ON

Comparisons between Ireland and more cycle friendly countries (Denmark, Netherlands etc) is hampered by the fact that we have larger areas of suburbs and sprawl, as opposed to a significant amount of continental cities where people live in the city and are closer to their school/work.
Irish cyclists if they were to follow the "slow bike" movement would elongate an already reasonable commute distance.
Our biggest issue is the lack of a decent cycle infrastructure, not the fact that cyclists wear helmets/lycra etc. Fine article but doesnt really focus on the real issue.
Anyway I have commuted by bike in Dublin for 4 years, and I notice more people biking it almost every year. Bike shops seem to be busier than ever. There are a lot of cyclists out ther, but poor urban facilities (road infrastructure). My tuppence worth.

hunnymonster

ROK ON wrote: »

...
Our biggest issue is the lack of a decent cycle infrastructure, not the fact that cyclists wear helmets/lycra etc. Fine article but doesnt really focus on the real issue....

We get a lot more rain here in Cork than I was used to in Dublin but it's still not a deterrent to cycling. You can fit a full change of clothes in a small backpack. We're heading into my first winter in the Cork commuter belt and I am actually concerned about cycling here in the dark on the small twisty roads.

Stark

ROK_ON wrote:

Bike shops seem to be busier than ever.

Probably people replacing their stolen bicycles...

kenmc wrote:

However more cyclists also means that the chances of encountering a wobbler who insists on plodding along barely above walking pace, yet when they get to a traffic light also insist on getting to the front of the queue, whereupon they either sit there waiting for lights to become a nicer shade of green, or they wobble along again veering all over the place until they eventually get both feet on the pedals and some momentum. I wonder sometimes if the stabalizers have been taken off too early.

Cycle rage? I used to encounter those people cycling along the footpaths by Griffith Avenue when I was out jogging and even when doing a recovery session, I'd still happily jog right past them as they pottered along at 5km/hr. These are the people who tempt me into breaking a red light or two when I'm cycling, so I don't have them catch up on me at every light.

petethedrummer

ROK ON wrote: »

Anyway I have commuted by bike in Dublin for 4 years, and I notice more people biking it almost every year. Bike shops seem to be busier than ever.

I have to agree with you that the number of cyclists seems to be rising. Also the proportion of lighter bikes (road and hybrid) seems to be increasing. I think people are shying away from the heavier moutain bikes and it makes cycling that bit easier and more enjoyable.

zzzzzzzz

petethedrummer wrote: »

"Girls-only schools all have a uniform policy that requires the wearing of skirts and this is the main reason why girls do not cycle"

Having been in Copenhagen last week, I can tell you its possible to cycle in a skirt and high-heels. not that I tried myself, but lots of the girls there did. They cycled to and from nightclubs/pubs. It was great to see the amount of bike use. Bikes aboslutely everywhere, I was fairly stunned.

I think we need to lose the dog eat dog attitude on irish roads. That goes for cyclists and motorists. People seem to go to unnecessary risks to gain a few seconds on the road here. The Danish drivers were unbelievably considerate to cyclists and the cyclists by and large obeyed traffic lights. Unlike here.

Some entrepeneur should jump on this bandwagon and make SPD high heels and cycling skirts with chamois...

DeepBlue

conor rowan wrote: »

i still think the main deterrant to more people cycling is the rain.

Completely agree. Reading through that article I wondered if they would mention the difference in climate between Ireland and countries where cycling is more prevalent.
Even in Ireland the east coast is a lot drier than the west coast and while the odds of getting caught in a heavy downpour in, say, a 40 minute commute (for example) might be lower than most might expect it's still enough to deter your average joe/jenny while it wouldn't matter to more hard core cyclists like on this board.

Stark

Copenhagen has a very similar climate to Dublin.

Gavin

It seems difficult to find a centralised repository of European weather statistics. This is one thing I found.

Taken from Octopustravel.com
Dublin | Copenhagen


Measured in millimetres. Of course more relevant would be average time of day of rainfall and amounts.

However Met.ie has a bounty of statistics !

"How Often Does it Rain?

The general impression is that it rains quite a lot of the time in Ireland but in fact two out of three hourly observations will not report any measurable rainfall. The average number of wet days (days with more than 1mm of rain) ranges from about 150 days a year along the east and south-east coasts, to about 225 days a year in parts of the west. "

rflynnr

If it helps (and I can't cite a source for this) I recall reading that on average it only rains about 8% of the time in Ireland. Therefore, the chance of actually encountering a wet commute is less than one every ten days. Will post source if I track it down.

72hundred

Personally I believe the biggest obstacle to seeing cycling take off as it should in Dublin/Ireland is the lack of changing facilities at the destination.

During the winter I'd travel in ANY weather and for a long distance if I knew there was a hot shower and a locker waiting for me a work. It would be great! I can't imagine either that a small changing room and shower can be that difficult to offer (-just build it in the car park, they won't need all the spaces anyway! )

ROK ON

72hundred wrote: »

Personally I believe the biggest obstacle to seeing cycling take off as it should in Dublin/Ireland is the lack of changing facilities at the destination.

Maybe, but in my current job we have great facilities, showers etc. 55 people work here, I am the only cyclist. Last role, 12 people, crap facilities (1 smelly toilet to change in). 5 regular cyclist, 2 of them completely hardcore. Smelly office as a result. Sometimes its a question of attitude.

72hundred

ROK ON wrote: »

Sometimes its a question of attitude.

Yeah true some people won't ever cycle. But I bet its nice for you to have the shower there to use! Lucky b^^^^^^ :P!

cantalach

ROK ON wrote: »

Comparisons between Ireland and more cycle friendly countries (Denmark, Netherlands etc) is hampered by the fact that we have larger areas of suburbs and sprawl, as opposed to a significant amount of continental cities where people live in the city and are closer to their school/work.
Irish cyclists if they were to follow the "slow bike" movement would elongate an already reasonable commute distance.
Our biggest issue is the lack of a decent cycle infrastructure, not the fact that cyclists wear helmets/lycra etc. Fine article but doesnt really focus on the real issue.

Fully agree. I read somewhere that Dublin is roughly 1.5 to 2.5 times larger in area than a comparably populated continental city. If you live outside the M50, a "slow cycle" commute on an upright city bike would take an age. To make the journey in some sort of reasonable time, you've got to crack on a bit and this means riding a sportier bike and having to sweat a bit.

unionman

rflynnr wrote: »

If it helps (and I can't cite a source for this) I recall reading that on average it only rains about 8% of the time in Ireland. Therefore, the chance of actually encountering a wet commute is less than one every ten days. Will post source if I track it down.

Weather and Cycling in Dublin : Perceptions and Reality

From Velocity 2005, I think the research was commissioned by Dublin City Council.

The last two summers probably blow these stats to pieces, but let's just assume for now that they were anomolies.

petethedrummer

last summer was crap, but this summer has been grand.

irlirishkev

petethedrummer wrote: »

last summer was crap, but this summer has been grand.

True. I remember getting sick of getting soaked everytime I got on my bike last year. This year, I've only gotten wet a few times.

doozerie

My experience of wet weater in Ireland matches many of those above i.e. it is not often that it rains during my commute times and very rare that it rains so heavily that it soaks through my raingear. And ironically, in wet weather the traffic jams are even worse (more people in cars, presumably, combined with lower speeds) so the advantages of cycling are even greater than usual.

I think that one of the major hurdles to more people cycling is the perceived danger of commuting by bicycle. People often ask me how dangerous I find my commute. In reality I don't find it very dangerous at all overall. Granted, you do meet the odd psycho driver/biker/cyclist/whatever, but they pose a danger to everyone not just cyclists (e.g. I've seen cars have to brake suddenly and swerve to avoid idiot cyclists that just sailed through a red light).

Oh, and as for cycling in heels, my wife does this quite often. It seems to fascinate other cyclists as they seem to think that high-heeled shoes and pedals should repel each other. In reality it is no more awkward than cycling with flat soled shoes (her view - I haven't tried cycling with high-heeled shoes myself but I take her word for it). And it certainly doesn't slow her down either. Same goes for cycling in a skirt or dress (I can't speak from personal experience here either).

cantalach

irlirishkev wrote: »

True. I remember getting sick of getting soaked everytime I got on my bike last year. This year, I've only gotten wet a few times.

Are you guys just engaging in some ironic banter here or what? The last figure I heard (after the main evening news about a week or so back) was that Dublin had received in excess of 450% of its normal rainfall this summer! Limerick, Clare and North Kerry were also off the scale. This evening here is Cork is the first clear blue sky evening we've had for weeks, possibly months.

cantalach

cantalach wrote: »

Are you guys just engaging in some ironic banter here or what? The last figure I heard (after the main evening news about a week or so back) was that Dublin had received in excess of 450% of its normal rainfall this summer! Limerick, Clare and North Kerry were also off the scale. This evening here is Cork is the first clear blue sky evening we've had for weeks, possibly months.

Boardsies cycle in between the raindrops.

But yeah, I've been cycling to work all year and I haven't been horribly drenched on more than two or three occasions.

paintkaz

The idea that skirts are a hinderance to cycling is pure tosh. Most school uniforms allow/require some kind of thick tights so modesty is not a problem. My Granny, God rest her, Ma and me have all cycled in skirts, uniforms the lot. Cycling is still a liberating and figure enhancing activity for females, even if you aren't kitted up for the TOI on the way to school or whereever.
Getting on a wet saddle after a its been out in the rain all day however...

doozerie

I presume that one of the perceived hazards of wearing skirts is the attention it might draw from males (most likely). My wife has experienced this, although rarely - she is well able to ignore leers or comments, or give a cutting response, but school kids might be more intimidated by it. Ironically, my wife gets more hassle for wearing a day-glo backpack, which may just go to prove that there is little you can do to avoid the attention of gob****es.

irishmotorist

There were a few things that caught my eye in the article.

Actually, according to the European Cyclists' Federation, there are 100 million Europeans who ride each day

I do find this hard to believe. I seem to remember hearing that there's about 450 million EU people. If the quotee is talking about the EU, then it's 1/4 of the population of the EU. I don't know how much the rest of Europe contains though.

Cycling is not as dangerous as people think - the number of cycling fatalities is far less than it was 20 years ago

And...

doozerie wrote: »

I think that one of the major hurdles to more people cycling is the perceived danger of commuting by bicycle. People often ask me how dangerous I find my commute.

I think that cycling is as dangerous as the cyclist makes it, 95% of the time. The abandon of common sense that I see (and have been sometimes guilty of, of course) every day beggars belief. People undertaking left-turning cars, people squeezing between buses, people flying through red lights without looking - and that's not to mention the 'safe' breaking of a red light.
The answer to this has to be education. Be it in school, a TV ad campaign like the car one on how to overtake and turn right etc. or something else. I have learned from stupid things that I've inadvertently done and I haven't repeated them. Proactive advice on road positioning etc. would <to some degree> lessen the learning curve and stop people from having to make mistakes.

The British Medical Association agrees with the RSA's stance. However, Dr Ian Walker, a traffic psychologist at the University of Bath, found "wearing a helmet puts cyclists at risk" as motorists drive closer to those wearing helmets. He used an ultrasonic distance sensor to record data that showed drivers passed an average of 3.33 inches closer when the cyclist wore a helmet than without.

This is an interesting statistic and I'd love to read into it a bit further. I think a lot of us would agree that taking a somewhat aggressive, far-from-the-kerb line means that we get more room from the overtaking driver. I wonder if the people who wear helmets (and I am one of them) are typically less likely to be this type of 'aggressive' and cycle closer to the kerb, thereby meaning that they're given less room. I think there's more behind that stat, than the pure stat.

Victor

Verb wrote: »

A reasonable article that takes a fairly neutral stance on helmets and bike safety
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0828/1219680139697.html

DCC come across well, apart from their slightly odd focus on girls uniforms

It was one comment in a long document.

Stark

irishmotorist wrote: »

This is an interesting statistic and I'd love to read into it a bit further. I think a lot of us would agree that taking a somewhat aggressive, far-from-the-kerb line means that we get more room from the overtaking driver. I wonder if the people who wear helmets (and I am one of them) are typically less likely to be this type of 'aggressive' and cycle closer to the kerb, thereby meaning that they're given less room. I think there's more behind that stat, than the pure stat.

It was the same cyclist, sometimes cycling with a helmet and sometimes cycling without. He also wore a wig on a few occasions and drivers gave him much more room as they thought he was a chick

There are quite a few other interesting pieces in his report, one of them confirming what I've often experienced with bus drivers:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-09/uob-wah091106.php

Gavin

Victor wrote: »

It was one comment in a long document.

I didn't pick it out for no reason. In the DCC submission to the National Cycling Policy document, 11 Dec 2007, the second sentance is related to girls, cycling and skirts. I find that bizarre frankly. Where is the research to backup these statements?

Luckily it seems that the combined Cycling Campaigns seem to be able to focus on more important issues; the skirt issue is somewhat relegated to a minor paragraph in the joint policy document.

Stark

Fortunately they've invented a new type of bicycle that allows girls to ride it whilst wearing skirts.

irishmotorist

Stark wrote: »

It was the same cyclist, sometimes cycling with a helmet and sometimes cycling without. He also wore a wig on a few occasions and drivers gave him much more room as they thought he was a chick

There are quite a few other interesting pieces in his report, one of them confirming what I've often experienced with bus drivers:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-09/uob-wah091106.php

I didn't realise it was the same guy, though it stands to reason that it would be (as well as being said in the article).

The idea that helmeted cyclists are more experienced and less likely to do something unexpected would explain why drivers leave less space when passing.

This is an interesting reasoning on why motorists may drive closer to helmetted cyclists. My initial reaction was that drivers don't differentiate that way. However, thinking about it for a minute, when I'm driving, I'll evaluate every scenario, driver, cyclist and pedestrian on how they're behaving and likely to behave. If I see someone going very slowly I'll probably give them a wider berth than somebody down on tri-bars, booting along. This is because I'd be trying to anticipate if anything unexpected might happen.

That said, I wouldn't consider the passing of 2500 cars to be totally conclusive. That might be equivalent to into and out of work in one day for me and I can say that some days are very different to other days.

blorg

That's pretty radical Stark, looks like they have done something to the crossbar? Wedged it down somehow or something. Is that even UCI legal?

doozerie

irishmotorist wrote: »

That said, I wouldn't consider the passing of 2500 cars to be totally conclusive. That might be equivalent to into and out of work in one day for me and I can say that some days are very different to other days.

In fact, if I remember rightly, when this study was reported in Cycling Plus several months back, the the guy himself was quoted as saying that the study couldn't be considered conclusive for this very reason of being on too small a scale. As such, it provides food for thought only and a more comprehensive study would be required before any real conclusions could be drawn.

petethedrummer

irishmotorist wrote: »

The answer to this has to be education. Be it in school, a TV ad campaign like the car one on how to overtake and turn right etc. or something else.

I don't really agree with the notion that the government should have to teach us how to ride bikes. We all know you're supposed to stop at a red light...not squeeze between buses...etc. its just here there is a more relaxed attitude towards rules. They could run 24 hour ad on the tv about the danger of breaking red lights and cyclists here would still break red lights. Its a cultural thing. The Danish cyclists obey they lights.

Same goes for cars at amber lights. People here see it as a sign to speed up when you're supposed to slow down. Same goes for jay-walking. If you go to Germany pedestrians wait for the lights to change to green before walking, even if there's nothing coming for miles.

I'm not sure how a cultural shift towards safer cycling/driving would happen. Maybe its from other cyclists setting a good example. E.g. stopping at red lights even though you feel like a bit of a kn0b while everyone else flies past. It might encourage a few others to stop also. Or the wearing a helmet(if you think they're necessary) even though you feel like a spanner. or telling another cyclist he/she's behaving like a kn0b when they do something stupid.

Húrin

I think the perception that cycling is dangerous keeps a lot of people away from it, especially in Dublin. I think that besides Dame ST, Westmoreland St and Dolier St, most streets in Dublin city are safe. I've been cycling to other cities too and it made me see just how safe Dublin is!

Why is Dublin perceived to be so dangerous for cycling?

Raam

petethedrummer wrote: »

I don't really agree with the notion that the government should have to teach us how to ride bikes. We all know you're supposed to stop at a red light...not squeeze between buses...etc. its just here there is a more relaxed attitude towards rules. They could run 24 hour ad on the tv about the danger of breaking red lights and cyclists here would still break red lights. Its a cultural thing. The Danish cyclists obey they lights.

It's not so much to teach us, but to remind us.
The amount of stupid stuff I see people do on bikes all the time is amazing. Some people clearly do not know that they really shouldn't squeeze in between buses or go up the left of a vehicle indicating left, to name but two obvious ones.

seamus

You would be surprised at the amount of people who *actually* think that red lights, pedestrian crossings, one-way streets, and so on, don't apply to cyclists. There were a number of occasions when I was a teenager of motorists and truckers screaming at us to cycle on the path.

In fact, half of the time when I tell people that my commute only takes 30 minutes, the response is, "Ah yeah no wonder, sure you don't have to stop at red lights."

...

petethedrummer

seamus wrote: »

You would be surprised at the amount of people who *actually* think that red lights, pedestrian crossings, one-way streets, and so on, don't apply to cyclists....

I doubt that very much. I'm sure they know that strictly speaking all those laws apply but that as a cyclist nothing's ever gonna happen if you break them. So people do.

olaola

Stark... I WANT a bike like this.

I live near town, so I just want one that I can mooch about on with a basket for d'shoppin! Can someone tell me where I can get a granny bike!?
I also have a problem with mod-ren bikes where the handle bars are a similar height as the saddle - I wear glasses, so I get a creak in my neck trying to see where I'm bleedin going!

seamus

petethedrummer wrote: »

I doubt that very much. I'm sure they know that strictly speaking all those laws apply but that as a cyclist nothing's ever gonna happen if you break them. So people do.

That's true in a lot of cases, but never underestimate ignorance.

There are thousands upon thousands of people on our roads who've never read the rules of the road, and who've never taken a lesson, and who "know" how to drive based on what they've seen everyone else do. The same goes for a lot of cyclists. So they see cyclists going through lights and they assume that's OK.

Stark

olaola wrote: »

Stark... I WANT a bike like this.

I live near town, so I just want one that I can mooch about on with a basket for d'shoppin! Can someone tell me where I can get a granny bike!?
I also have a problem with mod-ren bikes where the handle bars are a similar height as the saddle - I wear glasses, so I get a creak in my neck trying to see where I'm bleedin going!

Cyclesuperstore have plenty of bikes that sound like the kind you're looking for under their "ladies city bikes" section. Sometime like this perhaps?

http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=39&idproduct=17898