Private Clampers!!

legalbird12

I have heard that there is no law to stop anyone from cutting off a private clamp. By private clamp I mean in an apartment block, office block, retail carpark or pub carpark. (not a city council clamp, thats criminal damage)

I once saw a tv show from the UK that featured a guy called 'Mr Clamp'. If somebody got clamped they would ring him and he would cut the clamp off for a fraction of the price.

I would love to know your views on the above matter.

Thanks

-Chris-

This is my understanding of it private clamping:


If you're clamped on private ground it's a civil rather than criminal matter, so the Gardai won't get involved.

If the clampers are acting with the authority of the land owner, then they are allowed to clamp you. If you feel you've been incorrectly clamped you need to follow their appeals procedure rather than removing the clamp yourself.

If they have the authority to clamp you and you damage their clamp in the process of removing it they would be allowed to pursue you legally for damaging their property. For this they would be able to get the Gardai involved. I believe this would be criminal damage (whether on private or public land, you're still wilfully damaging another's property).

Wishbone Ash

OP - if someone impeded your access by parking beside your vehicle, would you think it would be criminal damage to cut up their car? Hypothetical I know, but the principle is the same.

Tipsy Mac

It's interferring with a mans automobile, for me it's a call to Sam Hire rather than a call to the private clampers should they clamp herself .

In Scotland all clamping is illegal, public and private.

alias no.9

If you can remove it without damaging the clamp, there's sweet **** all they can do. On some cars if you let the tyre down, you can get the clamp off.

Our man in Havana

AudiChris wrote: »

If the clampers are acting with the authority of the land owner, then they are allowed to clamp you.

Not true, it is all based on the law of contract. The driver has to see and agree to a contract which terms are contained in a sign. Also any sign must be large enough to be read easily and be posted at the entrance.

AudiChris wrote: »

If you feel you've been incorrectly clamped you need to follow their appeals procedure rather than removing the clamp yourself.

ROFFLE!
You seriously believe that a private clamper will have a honest and impartial appeals process. There is no appeals process. You would have to sue the clamper and or the landowner in court.

AudiChris wrote: »

If they have the authority to clamp you and you damage their clamp in the process of removing it they would be allowed to pursue you legally for damaging their property. For this they would be able to get the Gardai involved. I believe this would be criminal damage (whether on private or public land, you're still wilfully damaging another's property).

That is true, but is a scum bag private clamper going to bother?

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

It's interferring with a mans automobile, for me it's a call to Sam Hire rather than a call to the private clampers should they clamp herself .

In Scotland all clamping is illegal, public and private.

Correct. It is always advisable to carry a bolt cutters in the boot for such eventualities.

alias no.9 wrote: »

If you can remove it without damaging the clamp, there's sweet **** all they can do. On some cars if you let the tyre down, you can get the clamp off.

Correct. If you can get the clamp off without causing damage there is very little they can do.

-Chris-

Yes, you'd have to be advised clamping is in force and under what circumstances you'll be clamped before they could enfore it. I took that bit for granted.

No, I don't know what the appeals process is, but I'd bet it includes something like paying the fee first and then asking for a refund based on the circumstances and escalating to legal means if unsuccessful. It's a process to appeal.
Not all clampers are cowboys, even if they are overzealous and we don't agree with their tactics.

If you damage their property, expect to be exposed to legal ramifications. If you think they're scum for clamping you, wait until they sue for loss of earnings, replacement charges etc.

By private clamper, I presumed the OP meant a non-public clamper, including the likes of NCPS, rather than the cowboys you see on "Britain's Worst Clampers" on Sky One.

maidhc

AudiChris wrote: »

If you damage their property, expect to be exposed to legal ramifications. If you think they're scum for clamping you, wait until they sue for loss of earnings, replacement charges etc.

Any idiot can sue. Being successful is another matter.

Our man in Havana

I have extensive experience of dealing with rogue clampers. And actually most of them in Ireland are UK imports. Things got too hot there so they set up shop here.

It is naive to think there is an appeals process. Of course you have pay first. Any "appeal" will be met with a standard template letter if they even bother to respond at all.
Unless you engage in self help measures ( remove the clamp yourself) the only option is court and a clamper is not an easy person to sue.

Have a read of http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

-Chris-

Ok so, my main point to the OP was "no, it's not legal to damage other people's property, even if your name is Mr Clamp". The rest was to try and be helpful.

I don't expect a fair appeals process (and I haven't been treated fairly by the public clampers either when I've appealed).

Removing the clamp through damage = illegal

cormie

So who's to say you were the person who damaged the clamp

Hey Bond, did you get my PM?

Our man in Havana

I did.

I will get back to you shortly.

cormie

cool thanks

I wonder could you get something fitted to your vehicle that would make sheet drop down to the ground everytime you park, blocking access to wheels and underneath your vehicle making clamping and lifting impossible without damaging the vehicle

-Chris-

Or just drive something with gigantic wheels/tyres so the clamp won't fit!

Anan1

Or just not park illegally on private property? Or would that be too simple?;)

Victor_M

Anan1 wrote: »

Or just not park illegally on private property? Or would that be too simple?;)

I was waiting for a comment like this.

Some developers don't adhere to the planning they were granted in the first place, so while the residents and the local council are struggling slowly through the high courts to remedy/rectify this the locals residents have to tolerate this legal clamping, the proceeds of which go straight into the pockets of the developer who is causing the problem in the first place.

So a smart comment like yours, whilst on the face of it, is common sense, it's not really a practical solution if you are trying to live in an area that has private clamping and insufficient parking!

Carawaystick

If it was illegal parking then Gardaí or Traffic wardens would ticket you or tow you away.

let the landowner make a criminal complaint and secure a conviction, this would be illegal parking.

Anan1

Victor_M wrote: »

I was waiting for a comment like this.

Some developers don't adhere to the planning they were granted in the first place, so while the residents and the local council are struggling slowly through the high courts to remedy/rectify this the locals residents have to tolerate this legal clamping, the proceeds of which go straight into the pockets of the developer who is causing the problem in the first place.

So a smart comment like yours, whilst on the face of it, is common sense, it's not really a practical solution if you are trying to live in an area that has private clamping and insufficient parking!

I'm not with you. Do you mean apartment complexes where people have paid for parking spaces? Or where they haven't? Or where? Surely if it's private property and it's not yours then you just can't park there without the owner's permission?

Eoin

Anan1 wrote: »

I'm not with you. Do you mean apartment complexes where people have paid for parking spaces? Or where they haven't? Or where? Surely if it's private property and it's not yours then you just can't park there without the owner's permission?

Or developments with poorly marked and quite arbitrary no-parking areas? Or developments where the clampers will clamp a car if it's parked a 1mm where it shouldn't be?

Anyway, Captain Obvious' remarks aside, this was summed up in a previous thread by seamus, but I can't remember in which forum.

From what I can remember of the post, private clampers are not allowed to interfere with or detain your vehicle. You are within your rights to request they remove the clamp, and post you an invoice for any parking fees.

Guy:Incognito

eoin_s wrote: »

Or developments with poorly marked and quite arbitrary no-parking areas? Or developments where the clampers will clamp a car if it's parked a 1mm where it shouldn't be?

Anyway, Captain Obvious' remarks aside, this was summed up in a previous thread by seamus, but I can't remember in which forum.

From what I can remember of the post, private clampers are not allowed to interfere with or detain your vehicle. You are within your rights to request they remove the clamp, and post you an invoice for any parking fees.

Your examples of private developements aside. Peoples general view of all clampers is the same. I dont have a problem with clampers and have been clamped before. I parked without a pay and display ticket so it's my own fault.

I have to put up with retarded gimps who cant park everyday. I live in a cul de sac and at the bottom end of the road people from across the main road park along the path on one side of our street so that they dont have to park both cars in their own driveways and move them when someone wants to go out. The rest of the people on our road do the same. They also park directly opposite ech other about 2 feet from the kerb, effectivly blocking the road.


At the end of the day, a good percentage of people are ignorant and just dont care about others ( this is whoely evident on the m50 where the traffic is at a standsill and tails back for 2 or 3 miles till just after the ballymount on ramp because the road goes down to 2 lanes and none of the absolute **** on the road want to give way to each other, I doubt any of them know the meaning of the word filter) and as a result I have little regard and even less sympathy for people who get clamped as a result.

-Chris-

eoin_s wrote: »

From what I can remember of the post, private clampers are not allowed to interfere with or detain your vehicle. You are within your rights to request they remove the clamp, and post you an invoice for any parking fees.

I'd love it if this were defo true. Was it a thread started by Seamus or do you know another way to find it?

Our man in Havana

Search for clampers in Legal Discussion.

The view there is very different to moral high horse brigades view.

Eoin

AudiChris wrote: »

I'd love it if this were defo true. Was it a thread started by Seamus or do you know another way to find it?

No, he replied to an existing thread Chris - I think it was in the last couple of weeks or so - but can't remember the forum it was in.

Stekelly wrote: »

Your examples of private developements aside. Peoples general view of all clampers is the same. I dont have a problem with clampers and have been clamped before. I parked without a pay and display ticket so it's my own fault.

This thread is about private clampers, so setting aside opinions of clampers in private developments doesn't make sense. They are a law unto themselves, and any "appeals process" is a joke.

Darragh29

legalbird12 wrote: »

I have heard that there is no law to stop anyone from cutting off a private clamp. By private clamp I mean in an apartment block, office block, retail carpark or pub carpark. (not a city council clamp, thats criminal damage)

I once saw a tv show from the UK that featured a guy called 'Mr Clamp'. If somebody got clamped they would ring him and he would cut the clamp off for a fraction of the price.

I would love to know your views on the above matter.

Thanks

Untested area but I've done it three times, (on two occasions I recovering the vehicle back to my garage and then removing the clamping device, on one occasion I took it off where it was), and haven't had to pay out or take a hit yet. I'll concede that on every occasion I've had a visit from the Gardai, answer was on every occasion, "Look, it's a civil matter". Having said that, I'm a little more combative than most, on one of these occasions, an inspector was called and on another, a superintendent arrived. It could have gone the other way and I'd have been taken away in handcuffs. My understanding after getting to the debate is that there is no legal basis whatsoever for private clamping.

Apparently there is no legal difference at the present between someone robbing your alloys and putting a clamp on your car in a private place...

R.O.R

AudiChris wrote: »

Or just drive something with gigantic wheels/tyres so the clamp won't fit!

Wasn't that the reason for Mr. Ronan getting his Hummer H1?

mcwhirter

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

It's interferring with a mans automobile, for me it's a call to Sam Hire rather than a call to the private clampers should they clamp herself .

In Scotland all clamping is illegal, public and private.

Being happy is illegal in Scotland:eek:

legalbird12

Thanks guys some great points made. God help them when they coem near my car again!

Ferris

cormie wrote: »

cool thanks

I wonder could you get something fitted to your vehicle that would make sheet drop down to the ground everytime you park, blocking access to wheels and underneath your vehicle making clamping and lifting impossible without damaging the vehicle

Just buy a Citroen Xantia and drop the suspension to the lowest level. They won't get a standard clamp under the wheelarch.

Anan1

eoin_s wrote: »

Or developments with poorly marked and quite arbitrary no-parking areas? Or developments where the clampers will clamp a car if it's parked a 1mm where it shouldn't be?

None of this addresses my point, eoin_s. If someone owns property, should they or should they not be allowed to dictate who parks on it? If it helps, try thinking of your front garden. :-)

maidhc

Anan1 wrote: »

None of this addresses my point, eoin_s. If someone owns property, should they or should they not be allowed to dictate who parks on it? If it helps, try thinking of your front garden. :-)

No. If you have an open area without any warning signs or fence, then irrespective of the legal ownership it is a public place.

If you have a front garden, without a wall, and without a warning sign, then it would essentially be illegal for you to clamp someone in that garden.

Our man in Havana

And therein lies the problem.

mcwhirter

maidhc wrote: »

No. If you have an open area without any warning signs or fence, then irrespective of the legal ownership it is a public place.

If you have a front garden, without a wall, and without a warning sign, then it would essentially be illegal for you to clamp someone in that garden.

What about the travelling community, does that apply to them too?

dioltas

Just buy four of these http://www.aldi.ie/ie/html/offers/58_5891.htm

And put one on each wheel! ha

I think Im gonna go out and invest in a bolt cutters...

markpb

maidhc wrote: »

No. If you have an open area without any warning signs or fence, then irrespective of the legal ownership it is a public place.

If you have a front garden, without a wall, and without a warning sign, then it would essentially be illegal for you to clamp someone in that garden.

That's a bizarre notion. It's either legally public or legally private - there's no fluffy grey area in between. If it's private (but open), why should I not have a say in where and how people park in it?

smash

I know someone that works on a building site and got clamped at the enterance, he told the clamper to take it off and the clamper told him he was parked illegally on private land. My friend told the clamper that it was his site, he was managing it and he didn't have a contract with any clampers. The clamper told him it was a public access road to a private appartment block so he was leaving it there till the fine was paid!

my friend got an angle grinder, cut it off and left it on the ground beside the car so when the clamper came back he said they'd take him to court. My friend then produced the building plans which showed the site boundry which he was parked in and told the clamper that he had illegally clamped him on a private building site so it was his issue, and if he didn't get the clamping van outside the site boundry that he'd cut the roof off.

The clamper drove off with his tail between his legs and my friend put in 2 complaints to the clamping company:

1 - tresspassing on private land
2 - immobilising a private vehicle on private land which they didn't have a contract with and in turn blocking works access to the site

mcwhirter

steve06 wrote: »

I know someone that works on a building site and got clamped at the enterance, he told the clamper to take it off and the clamper told him he was parked illegally on private land. My friend told the clamper that it was his site, he was managing it and he didn't have a contract with any clampers. The clamper told him it was a public access road to a private appartment block so he was leaving it there till the fine was paid!

my friend got an angle grinder, cut it off and left it on the ground beside the car so when the clamper came back he said they'd take him to court. My friend then produced the building plans which showed the site boundry which he was parked in and told the clamper that he had illegally clamped him on a private building site so it was his issue, and if he didn't get the clamping van outside the site boundry that he'd cut the roof off.

The clamper drove off with his tail between his legs and my friend put in 2 complaints to the clamping company:

1 - tresspassing on private land
2 - immobilising a private vehicle on private land which they didn't have a contract with and in turn blocking works access to the site

Thats more like it,

dioltas

steve06 wrote: »

I know someone that works on a building site and got clamped at the enterance, he told the clamper to take it off and the clamper told him he was parked illegally on private land. My friend told the clamper that it was his site, he was managing it and he didn't have a contract with any clampers. The clamper told him it was a public access road to a private appartment block so he was leaving it there till the fine was paid!

my friend got an angle grinder, cut it off and left it on the ground beside the car so when the clamper came back he said they'd take him to court. My friend then produced the building plans which showed the site boundry which he was parked in and told the clamper that he had illegally clamped him on a private building site so it was his issue, and if he didn't get the clamping van outside the site boundry that he'd cut the roof off.

The clamper drove off with his tail between his legs and my friend put in 2 complaints to the clamping company:

1 - tresspassing on private land
2 - immobilising a private vehicle on private land which they didn't have a contract with and in turn blocking works access to the site

That's brilliant.

Our man in Havana

steve06 wrote: »

I know someone that works on a building site and got clamped at the enterance, he told the clamper to take it off and the clamper told him he was parked illegally on private land. My friend told the clamper that it was his site, he was managing it and he didn't have a contract with any clampers. The clamper told him it was a public access road to a private appartment block so he was leaving it there till the fine was paid!

my friend got an angle grinder, cut it off and left it on the ground beside the car so when the clamper came back he said they'd take him to court. My friend then produced the building plans which showed the site boundry which he was parked in and told the clamper that he had illegally clamped him on a private building site so it was his issue, and if he didn't get the clamping van outside the site boundry that he'd cut the roof off.

The clamper drove off with his tail between his legs and my friend put in 2 complaints to the clamping company:

1 - tresspassing on private land
2 - immobilising a private vehicle on private land which they didn't have a contract with and in turn blocking works access to the site

You can be sure that he was one of the many rogue clampers that the UK is exporting to Ireland.

maidhc

markpb wrote: »

That's a bizarre notion. It's either legally public or legally private - there's no fluffy grey area in between. If it's private (but open), why should I not have a say in where and how people park in it?

Because that is how the law is.

e.g. I legally own out to the centre of the road (as do most people), but people can still drive and park there.

As mentioned above, the notion of private clamping is grounded on the law of contract. If you put a clamp on someone elses property you must be able to justify it accordingly.

mcwhirter

Bond-007 wrote: »

You can be sure that he was one of the many rogue clampers that the UK is exporting to Ireland.

Why would he be from the UK?

Our man in Havana

Educated guess. There are very few Irish involved in the clamping game.

smash

Bond-007 wrote: »

You can be sure that he was one of the many rogue clampers that the UK is exporting to Ireland.

he was Polish

Our man in Havana

I stand corrected.

mcwhirter

steve06 wrote: »

he was Polish

See, he was polish, mr moderator

cormie

Can we get a summary of this so, just so I know what to say if I'm clamped. I was told to park somewhere near an apartment block today by one security guard, then another 2 came along with clamps and I had to tell them I had permission to park there, if I hadn't of been at my van, I probably would have been clamped. They clamped another 2 vehicles.

Our man in Havana

They is basically no law allowing for private clamping. There have been court cases where private clamping has been ruled unlawful.

I suggest reading the legal discussion topics on clamping.

cormie

taken from the other thread:

A person has no right to interfere with another person's vehicle, regardless of where it's parked.

You can clamp on private land all you like, but you're obliged to remove it without charging the person and without any delay. Otherwise they could take you to court for detaining their vehicle, and someone else suggested extortion as an additional possibility - demanding money to remove a clamp is akin to demanding money with menaces; "Pay me money or I won't release your car."

If someone was really bull-headed, they could take you to court for simply putting the clamp on in the first place.



It boils down to the law of contract and tort.

You put up a sign saying "Clamping in operation". You have to make sure that the sign is conspicious enough to be seen by any driver. So basically the driver is agreeing to a contract by parking.

Also any release fee must be reasonable and reflect the damages caused. I would say that the damages would be nominal and not the hundreds of euro that some clampers demand for release.

-Chris-

So wait a moment...

If there's a clear sign up that clamping is in force, clamping is legal and enforcable?

Does that then negate the previous paragraph that states the they're obilged to remove a clamp when requested without charge or delay?

dioltas

Seems to be alot of conflicting opinions on the subject...

maidhc

AudiChris wrote: »

So wait a moment...

If there's a clear sign up that clamping is in force, clamping is legal and enforcable?

Does that then negate the previous paragraph that states the they're obilged to remove a clamp when requested without charge or delay?

Yes.

-Chris-

So back to the OP's question, is it ok to cut the clamp off your car if you come back and find it there?

You're on private land in a carpark, parked against the parking guidelines detailed on the signposts
The signposts are up (and are clear & legible)
The charge is reasonable
There's no damage to your car

In that case, they're allowed to clamp you and within their rights to detain your vehicle until you pay a reasonable release fee.

They have the right to clamp you, you don't have the right to damage their equipment that they're using in the course of doing their job.

Is that all correct?