It's a fecking disgrace

oeb

So there I was 5 minutes ago walking through Tralee. Today is the last day of the festival. What do I see at the side of the road? A woman offering tempory tattoos, hair binding, and get this, piercings!

Who in their right mind will pierce someones ear or nose (That is what was advertised) on the footpath, on a busy street? Who in their right mind would get a piercing done there?

Now, I am aware that there is no specicific laws relating to piercings/tattoos in this country (AFAIK anyway), but should that not be covered by even basic health and saftey regulations?

I know this kind of stuff has been going on for years in accesories shops like claires and the like where people are getting pierced with inapropriate equipment (guns) in unsanitory conditions, by what I presume are untrained staff. And I know for years that the modified community has been complaining about it. But that today has really pushed me over the edge. It's insane that this kind of behavior is allowed to continue in this day and age.

What can we do to stop this? Does anyone here see themselves as a bit of a writer? Is it worth while us putting some letters together and trying to get it published (even in the letters to the editors pages of the papers, it will be a good thing if we can educate even one person). Is it worth while us approaching our TD's?

This has gone on long enough.

Captain Ginger

See the thing is, if I saw that I would try to grab a near by Guarda and have him get rid of her, but the issue is when it comes to body mods, I have this feeling the police and TDs don't really care too much.

It really is sickening though the crap that goes on in this area.

Will

How can you 'police' (for want of a better word) people who move from place to place offering these services? You can't, never in one area long enough.

I've thought about writing to politicians before but figured why the hell would they care? in their mind it's just ear rings and stuff.

oeb

Captain Ginger wrote: »

See the thing is, if I saw that I would try to grab a near by Guarda and have him get rid of her, but the issue is when it comes to body mods, I have this feeling the police and TDs don't really care too much.

It really is sickening though the crap that goes on in this area.

Well lets start with public awareness.

Here is my idea.

Start a website to promote safe and clean body modification in Ireland (I am a web developer by trade, so I have no problem doing this). This website would be a community project and NOT directly associated with any studio in the country. Our goal will be to educate and inform.

On the site we list studios that we judge to be safe. How we do this is one of us, or a representitive of ours goes to the studio and verifies that it is an area that we would be comfortable getting tattooed or pierced (autoclave, sealed needles, etc etc). We will also accecpt complaints against studios through the website (I am not sure how to handle them, maybe call the person who complains, call the studio etc, it's important that this is with regard to the safety of the enviroment btw and nothing to do with the quality of the work).

Speaking to piercers and tattooists in the past I know that alot of them also feel strongly about the issue. We can look at getting brief flyers etc printed up and let the shops that want them keep them on the counter etc.

I am not an expert in health and safety, but I'm sure we can find someone that is who can suggest guidelines for us, not to mention that alot of the reputable shops have their own very sensible guidelines available to their customers etc. Not to mention that the majority of us here have more than one modification and feel strongly enough about this that we have a fair idea what we are on about.

I don't know how many times I have been told by people that I should not get more tattoos because I could get hepititis etc, so I can't imagine good tattoo studios having a problem with things like this.

The website could also be directly informitve, with recomendations on aftercare, explenations of piercings, explenations of more extreme modification etc.

From there we will have a platform to approach the government and see if all this ****e can be cleaned up.

Will

Sounds like an awesome idea tbh, I'd be well up for helping out with the development.

It will be hard to verify people's stories though, and a lot of the studios have been known to fight between themselves. Need a way of verifying actual complaints

oeb

Will wrote: »

How can you 'police' (for want of a better word) people who move from place to place offering these services? You can't, never in one area long enough.

I've thought about writing to politicians before but figured why the hell would they care? in their mind it's just ear rings and stuff.

Simple answer? A licence.

The fact of the matter needs to be brought accross that this is not only earings and stuff. This is a serious health and safety matter. Someone could get very ill or potentially die from being tattooed or pierced in an unsafe enviroment with impropper due care by the artist. There is no difference in the health risks between re-using a needle for piercing and reusing a needle on the end of a suringe (sp?). Hell, they are even the same type of needle!

oeb

Will wrote: »

Sounds like an awesome idea tbh, I'd be well up for helping out with the development.

It will be hard to verify people's stories though, and a lot of the studios have been known to fight between themselves. Need a way of verifying actual complaints

I know, that's the only thing I am worried about. We can follow up (All complaints must be submitted with a phone number etc) another idea is simply to send someone in to get a piercing (if the conditions are unsafe they can just walk out), kinda like a metal and ink clad secret shopper.

I'm gonna give a shout down to maurice in metal urges (used to be in tattoo zoo in cork) and have a quick word with him to see would he be interested, and what he thinks would be the reaction from the piercing/tattooing (as opposed to pierced/tattooed) community in Ireland.

We already have some fantastic information on this forum (why not to get pierced with a gun, how to go about streching etc) and that information would be a fine start.

Star Lord

That's a fantastic idea Oeb, and anything I can do to help with this, just say!

Warhammer

A licence would be right.
Ok say that person has a licence for street selling wouldnt stop them doing piercing on the street.
I think its a disgrace to see that someone is piercing on the street.
It cant be hygenic.
You have pollution from traffic etc.
All the needles and things will have to be sterilized so how are they going to do that?
If i saw someone do that i woulndnt get or have any thing done from them.
Id slowly go to the seller and wisper something in the ears and tell them fu## off.

Captain Ginger

Fully support that idea Oeb, if you want any help from a development or graphics side of things feel free to ask.

Too many places get away with this and not enough people are educated of the risks (we all know a certain arcade that is a prime example.)

Will

Think this needs to be looked into more before you starting jumping at it, im all for the idea but need to know what we get into.

Let's say someone bad mouths a studio, all we can go on is their word, and on the internet that generally means nothing. It could be someone with a chip on their shoulder, rival studio or just a troll.

oeb

This evening when I finish work I will be stopping by two local studios and having a word with them. See what they think of the idea.

The details need to be worked out, maybe this won't list studios at all and will just have guidelines up there? Maybe we can come up with a good method of weeding out the crap there? Maybe all we can do is have someone inspect the place once every six months. I'm sure the studios that like having a good name would be happy to participate in this.

@Captain Ginger: are you a graphic designer? I may take you up on that cause I am just a code monkey, can't design for crap =(

I'm going to look into the possibilities and see what I can come up with and I will keep all you guys informed anyway.

Will

*waves magic wand* (can move this discussion to a more secure area soon)

Anywho yeah I do graphic design from time to time also, more than willing to help.

Oryx

Im a lurker to this forum, but this is a topic where I think you need input from 'non-modded' folk*

The kind of person who will sit on a footpath and have their ears pierced is not the kind of person who will seek out a body modification studio, or seek advice on ear piercing on a website. They see the service offered, and usually its a snap decision to have it done, without any real consideration of health or hygiene.

Similarly, in jewellers and places like Claires, these are seen by ordinary people as the first port of call to get their ears pierced. They have no real way of assessing who is good and who is bad, and as I have said, often dont consider it much anyway.

I speak as someone who was a jeweller and (shock horror) did pierce ears. Im not defending that as a brilliant set up, but it is fact of how its commonly been done. Basic hygiene and contamination issues were handled ok and taught, but I received no other hands on training. Legal issues were covered though.

The level of ignorance I found with people getting piercing was astounding, and though you try and advise on aftercare, most you could tell didnt listen and really didnt care. I sent more mothers away in disgust after refusing to do their childs ears than I could count. A tattoo studio I wont name often pierced weeks-old infants ears after I had sent the mothers away (I thought it was an awful thing to do), so the problem is not that piercing should be only done in x type studio, but that there are irresponsible piercers everywhere, and stupid punters. The way to tackle that IS regulation and education, obviously, but I think its an incredibly hard area to target and educate on. A common perception of body mod is that it is quite alien, and quite removed from normal ear piercing. A mother who would run a mile from a tattoo parlour would quite happily bring her darling to Claires for ear piercing. That is what you are up against.

*I have one tattoo though. Dont think that counts anymore

Will

Will actually leave this where it is for the moment.

I think if we wanna remain un-biased and credible we need to stay away from including body piercers and tattoo artists, but again we (for the most part) are just a bunch of people whohave a huge interest in this particular topic. it's a tough situation to be in.

oeb

Oryx wrote: »

Im a lurker to this forum, but this is a topic where I think you need input from 'non-modded' folk*

The kind of person who will sit on a footpath and have their ears pierced is not the kind of person who will seek out a body modification studio, or seek advice on ear piercing on a website. They see the service offered, and usually its a snap decision to have it done, without any real consideration of health or hygiene.

Similarly, in jewellers and places like Claires, these are seen by ordinary people as the first port of call to get their ears pierced. They have no real way of assessing who is good and who is bad, and as I have said, often dont consider it much anyway.

I speak as someone who was a jeweller and (shock horror) did pierce ears. Im not defending that as a brilliant set up, but it is fact of how its commonly been done. Basic hygiene and contamination issues were handled ok and taught, but I received no other hands on training. Legal issues were covered though.

The level of ignorance I found with people getting piercing was astounding, and though you try and advise on aftercare, most you could tell didnt listen and really didnt care. I sent more mothers away in disgust after refusing to do their childs ears than I could count. A tattoo studio I wont name often pierced weeks-old infants ears after I had sent the mothers away (I thought it was an awful thing to do), so the problem is not that piercing should be only done in x type studio, but that there are irresponsible piercers everywhere, and stupid punters. The way to tackle that IS regulation and education, obviously, but I think its an incredibly hard area to target and educate on. A common perception of body mod is that it is quite alien, and quite removed from normal ear piercing. A mother who would run a mile from a tattoo parlour would quite happily bring her darling to Claires for ear piercing. That is what you are up against.

*I have one tattoo though. Dont think that counts anymore

That is a fantastic point, and one I am also planning on addressing.

By developing a platform from where we can be heard, we can leap into many other areas. For example, when we have bundles of information on health and safety put together we then have the articulation we need to confront politicians directly about it. We can publish letters to the editor etc, hell we could even look at securing funding down the line and taking out informational ads.

I know alot of the local papers could be talked into running helpful information like this, I'm sure I'm not the only person here with contacts in my regional papers.

Captain Ginger

oeb wrote: »

I know alot of the local papers could be talked into running helpful information like this, I'm sure I'm not the only person here with contacts in my regional papers.

Well, a lot of people who would get mods would also be in college, so even running it through college papers would be easy to do and could be effective.

Will

Slow down lads, site etc. isn't even up and running yet.

Will

Later today with any luck I will be making a video to show people how to stretch their ears by taping them with ptfe tape. Things like this in the long run will hopefully show folk, instead of making them read through long boring paragraphs.

Captain Ginger

Will wrote: »

Slow down lads, site etc. isn't even up and running yet.

Ah yeah, but it's good to type up things as they come to mind so if anything does come of this we can look back through possible ideas and such.

Hellrazer

This is a great idea Oeb.Its something I have written to Td`s about but I never even got a reply.

Theres a serious need for regulation over here before someone dies from an infection caused by unsanitary practices of a Tattooist/Piercer.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone did die from a mod related infection--It would drive the industry so far underground it would be like the dark ages of Body Modification since the powers that be would probably come down very heavily on it (like the Irish government always do--close the stable door after the horse has bolted kinda way)

We need regulation now not after someone dies.

I have lots of info on Cross contamination and Blod borne pathogens if you wanted to stick the PDFs on the site.

Others have offered to help you out---Ill offer mine aswell.

Richie.

Hellrazer

Will wrote: »

It will be hard to verify people's stories though, and a lot of the studios have been known to fight between themselves. Need a way of verifying actual complaints

I think the way to approach it is in an "informative" manner and not bad mouth individual cases.You could end up in a lot of legal hassle if you did bad mouth someone whether its in the right or wrong since there are no regulations over here so even if someone is doing something wrong (by our standards) they are not doing anything wrong legally since there are no laws for them to break.

CianRyan

All sounds like a great idea, and I'm glad too see, people actually taking action to something that has been left, in well, a dangerous position for years.

If spreading the message, to only a few people, is all that comes from this/what may be, then thats a few people more likely to think twice before, getting pierced in an unsanitary environment.

I can't really do much to assist the cause, as i am in 6th year, and need to devote me time to my studies, but i would be willing to put my self forward as a "secret shopper".

Will

not so secret now are we cian

CianRyan

Shush you, i'll wear a mask!

EDIT:
That and i dont think any of you actually know what i look like.
HAA

jenizzle

What you saw was a disgrace, but its happening all over the place. And to be honest, while an informative website is a great idea, there is every piece of information out there already. I think the people that choose to go to a crap piercer are going to stay ignorant, no matter how many articles you publish or websites you make. Maybe I'm just horribly pessimistic, but to me if some 16 year old wants to get her nose/navel/gee pierced, they're gonna do it anyway. The best we can hope for is that they at least google the procedure.

Regarding the guidelines, well... thats just what they are. A personal view of how you should look after your mods. Like, to one tattooist, Savlon saves all, whereas another will shout at you for contemplating such a thing. Its just a matter of opinion how much salt goes into a sea salt soak etc... Of course, it should be common sense what a clean and safe tattoo/piercing parlour looks like, and people should know that not all mod artists are all that scary.

truthinwords

The website would need real verifiable grounds for naming a studio as somewhere to avoid. It would be completely open to lawsuits for libel and defamation.

sd123

truthinwords wrote: »

The website would need real verifiable grounds for naming a studio as somewhere to avoid. It would be completely open to lawsuits for libel and defamation.

What if the person was someone who really knew what they were talking about, and someone who's opinion might be respected a little bit more than the average Joe Soap with body mods.

I'm a medical student and have been educated very well on health and safety and the risks involved with unsanitary conditions. I would be willing to use my 'expertise' to give a full evaluation of any place I visit.

Btw, I agree wholeheartedly with developing some sort of website with a list of places we think are RELIABLE and CLEAN. I don't know if it would be a great idea to say, for example, X studio was an absolute disgrace.... and you'd probably get aids if you went there (which is true for one place I walked into) Like what someone said earlier, We could get into some serious legal issues on slander.

But great idea nontheless and I'm willing to help out anyway I can.

Star Lord

sd123 wrote: »

What if the person was someone who really knew what they were talking about, and someone who's opinion might be respected a little bit more than the average Joe Soap with body mods.

I'm a medical student and have been educated very well on health and safety and the risks involved with unsanitary conditions. I would be willing to use my 'expertise' to give a full evaluation of any place I visit.

You're still not qualified or authorized to assess somewhere on their health and safety standards.

sd123

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

You're still not qualified or authorized to assess somewhere on their health and safety standards.

Hmm, maybe not, but what would you recommend? Maybe someone from the health and safety authority or something.... Doubt they'd be willing to comply or even reply to any such suggestion.

CianRyan

Edited to save my sorry behind.

sd123

CianRyan wrote: »

EDITED

I got in trouble for asking a question like this on the 'Legal Discussion' forum. Apparantly, if someone answers that quesion, and you act on their advice, and get in alot of trouble, Boards.ie and/or the poster may be liable.

I was very shocked too, but got a 7 day ban for it :cool:

CianRyan

I TAKE BACK THAT QUESTION! >.<

sd123

CianRyan wrote: »

I TAKE BACK THAT QUESTION! >.<

Maybe its a bit much, I don't know. Better to be safe than sorry though!

Will

lets leave legal issues out of this... think i might close this just to be on the side of caution

Star Lord

I don't think this needs to be closed, but I'd suggest dropping all and any ideas of assessing or rating studios.

If the site were kept informational and advisory, with discussion articles/podcasts, and maybe interviews with tattoo artists and piercers it'd probably be best.

sd123

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

I don't think this needs to be closed, but I'd suggest dropping all and any ideas of assessing or rating studios.

If the site were kept informational and advisory, with discussion articles/podcasts, and maybe interviews with tattoo artists and piercers it'd probably be best.

+1, Didn't mean for that to get a bit out of hand earlier

Crumble Froo

CianRyan wrote: »

Shush you, i'll wear a mask!

EDIT:
That and i dont think any of you actually know what i look like.
HAA

hehe, you know you posted your bebo up here in your earlier days posting, so we could gauge how you'd look with a certain piercing?

but wow, interesting discussion while i'z away. i think it's a fantastic idea, and anything i could do to help, ill give a go of.

i think the important thing with the website, if it's going ahead, is to just not name individual shops at all, but more guidelines for what to look for in a shop, what should be present, and warning signs that just scream 'run'.

and tbh, i think as large a scale information campaign - into local papers, college papers, just printing off flyers and putting them up around town are the best things to do. get it so people will notice, even just for 10mins after reading it, and get it into the forefront of peoples' minds as much as possible.

but, tbh, the thing that is really the most important thing, is legislation. no, there is actually absolutely nothing anyone could have done about the woman offering piercings in the middle of the street. but if there was legislation regarding safe and hygienic piercing then she could have been.

am i right when i say that a lot of the more reputable studios will tend to have ministry of health certificates to say they've been ranked as clean/hygienic/passable?

i think one thing i could do is dig up the legislation and laws in different countries that do have piercing laws (eg, australia), and show them as an example, as well as highlighting all the risks, and send them into my local TD.

i think this is a really excellent idea, and fair play oeb for actually being motivated enough to take it this far in teh first place

oeb

Ok, so as it stands the general idea is as follows.

We will exist to inform only. How a person should look after a tattoo or piercing, what practices a person should look for in a good studio. Descriptions on the various piercings etc you can get, interviews with Irish tattooists and piercers. Why a person should not get a piercing done with a gun, how to strech a lobe etc.

We will not list information from specific studios (I assume we will list a name and address after an interview, but that's different). We are not there to judge, and we are not there to tell studios how to do their business, we are only there to keep a person who is interested in body modification informed.

Everyone OK with this?

Crumble Froo

yep, though i would like to add putting pressure on TDs to at least acknowledge teh problem, and press for some legislation.

CianRyan

All sounds great to me.
Quite excited about it, actually.
haha

tasha1

Fantastic idea.