Comments & Critique : A discussion

mehfesto2

I have decided to write this thread to start a discussion on Comments & Critique. The issue seems to be a fairly emotive one lately, however I wish to approach this topic in a way in which lends itself to a healthy debate, not an excuse to begin attacking people's views or opinions.

I used flickr for critique initially and still do to this day, though less frequently than I had done. I add some pictures to groups which require people to comment and critique your photos in return for the same on their submitted image. I found this to be perhaps one of the best tools in furthering my photography to the level it is now. I look back at the pictures I have submitted at the begining now and realise how much I have learned from having their obvious flaws outlined to me in oftentimes, not the most pleasant way.

However now that I feel I have a decent grasp over my camera and how to take a photo, I do feel that some comments now are unjustified and sometimes quite hurtful.

Does opening yourself up to C&C automatically put you in the line of fire? Should you accept all comments given to you at face value and decide that you did put yourself in this situation and should listen to what you asked for?

How does the critics' own talent rate from you when you read their comments? Do you rate what you would consider more talented photographers' views more highly than photographers who you think aren't great? Similarly, do you disregard critique from photographers who specialise in one field of photography that is totally different from your own interets?

What constitutes good critique? Should it be technical? Should the critic describe what the picture means to them personally?

A lot of questions and a little heavy perhaps, but I feel that this issue could be debated well.

challengemaster

If you ask for it, take it on the chin - doesn't mean you have to take it as law, or even pay attention to it. Photography is about capturing images the way you see them, the way you want to preserve and remember something, it's all about the photographer and what they want.

Not everyone will like the style of the image, but key thing to remember is, its about your vision - not theirs. Correcting mistakes is fine, but letting someone else control what your image looks like.. why not just give them the camera?

0utpost31

C&C isn't a "line of fire". If you produce art, be able to take criticism or fail miserably.

CabanSail

C&C should be construtive & not negative. It should be as objective as possible & make suggestions on how the image can be improved from your own experience.

I have learned a lot from entering the Monthly Competitions at DCC as the images are judged by very experienced & highly qualified photographers. Most I have learned a lot from, some I thought missed the whole point of my image. The feedback has always been welcom though.

You just have to be polite & not insulting if you do not like something.

Thoie

I've asked for C&C on a few portraits because I know there's something wrong with what I'm doing. I was happy with the feedback - there were a lot of useful hints there for what to correct the next time I take some.

I think the criticism is useful to not only have a fresh pair of eyes, but also to suggest alternative ways of approaching a subject. However, if it's a one off picture saying things like "you should have asked that bobsleigher to turn to the left" aren't particularly useful to my mind (though maybe that's just me).

I often see photos put up for C&C with no guidance from the poster as to what they're looking for. Are they looking for PP suggestions? Are they looking for more technical suggestions like "a faster shutter speed would help in those situations"?

I think one of the problems is that people are looking for constructive criticism without taking the time to say what they were trying to achieve. If I put up a photo with a vivid green sky, and no comment, people would quite rightly point out that the sky is the wrong colour. However if I put the same pic up and say "I've got the colour I want, but I'm was hoping for more definition in the blah, and softer in the blah blah", then people can provide the kind of criticism that you're looking for.

melekalikimaka

i agree with above, tho if someone says nothing but...its crap, delete it, thats still c&c and i don't mind it, art is never gonna appeal to everyone, sure i don't LIKE giving bad critique but if i think somethings really aweful i'd tend not to comment at all unless i know the poster will understand its merely an opinion and not a personal attack of skill or style

gandalf

Of course if you post a photo for Critique and Comment you will get negative remarks, not everything will appeal to everyone. My problem is with comments like "it looks like a holiday snap" and the like or even worse "its crap". I'd expect a further explanation of why the commenter thinks this way about the capture.

Of course I agree wholeheartedly with Thoie, it would be brilliant if the OP gave a background on the shot and what they were trying to achieve to give people a benchmark to work from.

0utpost31

gandalf wrote: »

not everything will appeal to everyone.

True. I'm not really interested in sports photos, I never leave comments when they're uploaded for c&c. I just have nothing to say. Same way you don't like macro shots... (it is you who doesn't like macro shots isn't it?)

gandalf

Ah but I did say I liked the treatment that you did in B&W

thebaz

0utpost31 wrote: »

C&C isn't a "line of fire". If you produce art, be able to take criticism or fail miserably.

most true artists are sensitive people , who get stung badly by criticism , deserved or undeserved -- many great artists can't take criticism at all -- after all what do the critics produce ??

No one likes negative feedback , but it helps you develop and learn if given in the right manner -- constructive not destructive

kjt

I haven't put anything up in a while for C&C but that's because I've gotten lazy and I'm going through one of my off-photography phases . In saying that I feel that when you do put your shots up for C&C you shouldn't take it exactly as it's typed every time. Some people can come along with a one or two lines and they may as well have said nothing. Then others will write five or six words and it will make you look at your own picture in a whole different light.

Some people can say a few hurtful things; unintentionally or deliberately, so you really can’t read too much into cruel/badly chosen words. After all your putting your own bum out there to be pinched – so be ready for it!

Personally I take most people’s opinions equally but there would be a handful of people on the net that I would weight a little more heavily than others.

With other similar threads to this like ‘C&C educate’ you start to hear a lot of people saying they don’t like when somebody only strews together a few words like ‘nice picture’, ‘I like it’ and so on. I think most of this comes down to what you were saying and that is that the original poster (OP) just uploaded a photo, maybe mentioned where they took it and popped ‘C&C’ onto the end of their title. If the OP goes into greater dept and maybe delves deep enough to throw out what they wish to leave with at the end of the C&C, it will help enormously.

I also like when somebody looks at a photo and may only say, “I really like this shot, good job” or something similar. This isn’t for my ego but it’s good to know people have looked at the shot and enjoyed it. Theirs nothing worse then to see 50 views and no replies, it gives you the wrong impression most times.

I welcome critique from anybody, even people who aren’t interested in photography – everybody will have a different view on a photo and I learn lots from this. Just last week I had a cousin who is eight years old see one of my photos on the laptop and she said something that made me completely rethink the photo. Not everybody has to be a professional or even a photographer in my opinion.

That’s my C&C on C&C

melekalikimaka

gandalf wrote: »

Of course if you post a photo for Critique and Comment you will get negative remarks, not everything will appeal to everyone. My problem is with comments like "it looks like a holiday snap" and the like or even worse "its crap". I'd expect a further explanation of why the commenter thinks this way about the capture.

Of course I agree wholeheartedly with Thoie, it would be brilliant if the OP gave a background on the shot and what they were trying to achieve to give people a benchmark to work from.

i'd disagree

a comment doesnt need backing


a critique does

kgiller

thebaz wrote: »

most true artists are sensitive people

No im not!

I would say that the whole point of C+C is to upload some pictures that you like or dislike and offer them to the floor to see what others think about them too. If people respond with comments like "its crap" or something similar, its not helpful at all, even though it may be true. Its much more helpful to say that "its crap because, plus add something about how you think the picture could be improved. If you have no advice for how to improve the picture or anything good to say, then why would you just post "its crap" other than to annoy someone?

I put some shots up yesterday for C+C, just some shots from the weekend that i thought were quite good. Im a beginner and think that any kind of comments and advice will help me get better faster, rather than just listening to my mother telling me that they are lovely :P . I noticed that while 111 people looked at the thread, only 3 people commented. I think that some people just like to get advice but not give it back. And also others only give advice or comments to a certain group of members.

Thats my 2c.

Go and add some C+C to my thread!

melekalikimaka

kgiller wrote: »

. And also others only give advice or comments to a certain group of members.

i agree, i do alot mainly cos i've learnt who actually wants c and c and who wants to be flattered

kgiller

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i agree, i do alot mainly cos i've learnt who actually wants c and c and who wants to be flattered

Well then, just to tell everyone, im a beginner, started about 2 months ago, and want to improve. I put some stuff up every once in a while to get feedback, both positive and negative, as long as its constructive. Im not technically a very good photographer yet, i guess it takes a long time, so i appreciate advice from people telling me what they would have done differently or what they like that I have done.

I think this is what C+C should be about.

rgiller

The problem is that a lot of the C+C threads here, are from people not looking for C+C. They have taken what they think is a good picture of their pet dog or whatever and want people to validate their greatness. Art is of course subjective, so not everyone will appreciate how good fido looks digging a poo hole in the back yard, and so not everyone will respond positively. Some times photos just aren't good and if that's the case, why not say it?

I think there is too much politics involved in discussions on photos here: certain people's work can be praised despite being sub standard, and vice versa. Also, people tend to mince their words a bit, and it's almost the norm that tact is more important than honesty. I would rather be told something is crap than have no comments (and of course would much prefer to be told something is good but could be much better if I did a, b and c to it).

Basically, criticism can be critical sometimes, but we're all adults and shouldn't take it so personally. I intend to dish out my share of positive, constructive comments but, if I don't like something, I won't hold back my forked tongue

melekalikimaka

sorry dude, i wasnt directing that at you ... or anyone in particular

sineadw

Constructive not destructive - well put Baz.

When I put stuff up for C&C I want honest opinions, but I also want to know how I can better the shots. I try to ask for specific pointers to specific areas, although sometimes there's just something 'wrong' with a shot that I just can't put my finger on. I think general C&C is ok too in this case.

As for different levels of knowledge - I try to bear that in mind when I either give or take C&C. I do put a lot more weight to a comment made by a photographer who knows his stuff, although that's not to say I'd ever dismiss anyone's. I think its important too to bear that in mind when giving C&C. I've read here too many times people telling newbies their photos are crap or look like snaps and I find that so unfair. Crushing someone doesn't help. And I don't hold to the opinion that you put yourself 'out there' either - its all to easy to be flippant or rude on the internet. I doubt these comments would be given if you were sitting across a table from the OP..

I think a LOT of the C&C here is really really good - look at the last two posts I've done and you'll see all the help I've been getting. I guess there'll always be an element of trolling though and I'm not sure there's much can be done about that.. sigh..

PaulieC

thebaz wrote: »

most true artists are sensitive people , who get stung badly by criticism , deserved or undeserved -- many great artists can't take criticism at all

--

If people are so sensitive that they get stung badly by criticism, then perhaps they should not post up here for C&C.

thebaz wrote: »

after all what do the critics produce ??

Critics on this board? I would say they produce images ranging from good to outstanding and as such are very qualified to provide criticism.

I've been meaning to say this for a long time, but never got around to it. In my opinion, AnCatDubh is the best C&Cer on these boards. His (her?) comments are always measured, constructive, well thought out and helpful. I woud say to anyone who asks how to give a good C&C to look back at some of AnCatDubh's comments and see how to do it properly

melekalikimaka

ah now if its a newbie i wouldnt slate their work sinead, but for example if you put up a load of gig shots and imo they weren't up to your usual high standard, i may if i felt it merited would say 'they are crap', i might say due to 'blown out highlights' or bad b and w conversion, but in fairness you know your stuff and would know whats up, a noob i'd leave out the 'its crap' but still say whats wrong, i don't see why sugar coating is required, if i put stuff up i want people to say what they really think...not whats pc to say.

damn boards and p.c.-ness...
grrr

melekalikimaka

bring back shrimp... he was a harsh mofo, you could call a photo dog poo and it'd look like the nicest comment ever given beside on of his:p

sineadw

melekalikimaka wrote: »

ah now if its a newbie i wouldnt slate their work sinead, but for example if you put up a load of gig shots and imo they weren't up to your usual high standard, i may if i felt it merited would say 'they are crap', i might say due to 'blown out highlights' or bad b and w conversion, but in fairness you know your stuff and would know whats up, a noob i'd leave out the 'its crap' but still say whats wrong, i don't see why sugar coating is required, if i put stuff up i want people to say what they really think...not whats pc to say.

damn boards and p.c.-ness...
grrr

But my shots are NEVER crap! :P;)

Agreed - that's what I meant. I want honest opinions and if someone told me my shots were crap I'd be able to take it on the chin because either I'd know that myself or I'd be confident enough to know that they're not. I wouldn't take any insult if you told me they were because I know you and I'd know you didn't mean it unfairly. I just meant with newbies. And people being rude in general for the sake of it. Make sense?

melekalikimaka

sineadw wrote: »

Make sense?

that you never take photos that are CRAP??

no that makes no sense, they're all crap

but yes i do understand and agree

Dragan

thebaz wrote: »

after all what do the critics produce ??

That depends entirely on who you are asking and if you are asking on a photography forum then i guess they produce photographs.

Personally i realise i have made some major mistakes when i was asking for C&C on shots. It was of no help at all to the people i was asking that i simply popped up photos. No one can really give correct C&C without the context explained, especially if you do have a driving theme behind the shots that you are trying to get across.

Also, for my money anyway, it is always reasonable to expect people to be polite. Nothing bugs me more than people going into a C&C thread just to say they don't like something. I mean yes, you are entitled to your opinion put you are not willing to offer any help and for me that seriously devalidates the persons post.

In short ( in the case of both myself and others ) i think some decent detail from the OP would help a lot in these circumstances.

sasar

To be honest, I don't see what's the point of C&C. I have never asked for it and never will, just because I shoot for myself.

melekalikimaka

sasar wrote: »

To be honest, I don't see what's the point of C&C. I have never asked for it and never will, just because I shoot for myself.

to improve technically and to create photos that better appeal to others or to improve on techniques your trying to perfect yourself, if it wasn't for c and c here, i'd still be shooting gigs with flash....

sasar

But that's the thing, many people look at some of my shots and say - they are crap, but I still like them. It just doesn't really bother me what other people say about my stuff.

thebaz

if a 100 people look at my work , and 99 like it , its the one that doesn't that i think about , unfortunatly -- the trick is to decide is it justified .
I know oriel usn't like my stuff , and it hurt me to take , but looking back it helped me develop

John

sasar wrote: »

But that's the thing, many people look at some of my shots and say - they are crap, but I still like them. It just doesn't really bother me what other people say about my stuff.

And that's fair enough but like any skill or art, if you want to progress you need to take on board criticism. I'm not saying you can't by forging ahead completely on your own but it's certainly no harm to ask for C&C if you're looking for pointers on how to improve your photography (or whatever skill).

mehfesto2

melekalikimaka wrote: »

to improve technically and to create photos that better appeal to others or to improve on techniques your trying to perfect yourself, if it wasn't for c and c here, i'd still be shooting gigs with flash....

Agreed. I learned a lot about the technicality of the camera from critique. I would read books on subjects such as shutter speed and apenture, but when someone could point out areas on your picture that could be improved by doing such-and-such, it makes it more understandable because you can relate to it.

I will conceed that I think some of the harshest words left on my pictures did help me learn more than pleasant comments.

For example, I posted this picture for critique:

It got such high praise and great scores from the flickr pools I added it too. However, the only comments I can remember are the one's which weren't positive, such as "it needs a polariser", "it's too bright" or "it's a very uninteresting scene"... all of which I removed at the time. But truth be told, if I was to shoot the idea again, I know what I'd do to make the photo more technicaly sound.

smelltheglove

The c&c post can sometimes get a bit personal so I suppose it is a good move to bring to attention what people expect from c&c.

IMO I only put up I thin 2 posts for c&c, the first one I was so proud of the shots and really wanted someone to say - you know you actually did alright, I got one comment that said too much softness on the pp and I fixed it and got a great image. The second one I found some of the comments did not actually take into acount what was said in the post and in posts after it.

I do feel if you are going to give c&c you should read what the op asks and any responses and replies after that. What is the point of saying well I dont like this or this you should hav done this or that if those exact points were included in the op to say they were required. Complicating I know but its just not a good idea to to make a comment or critiscism without knowing the details given first.

Someone has mentioned politness and I think that is a huge huge thing. I said once that people on this forum are so polite but after a day I put a c&c on a post in response to the post and other posts thereafter on the same thread. Another poster then decided to tell me I was going off topic and had not answered the original question whereas in the context of the post and others I had actually referred to it. In this sense I feel some people do think their opinions are above others.

Whether you have been a photographer for 10 years or 10 days you can still see something that someone else may not, and therefor qualifications and experience should not matter, I actually find in some cases it is newer and fresher people that give more constructive crtisism rather than just critisicing.

And to end, c&c is comment aqnd critique so there should be no problem with a comment saying this is a good shot, it also helps the photographer to know that they have done well in that sense they may know themselves what they did different from this one to the previous one and carry that forward also. Sorry for the long reply!

Hugh_C

thebaz wrote: »

if a 100 people look at my work , and 99 like it , its the one that doesn't that i think about , unfortunatly -- the trick is to decide is it justified .
I know oriel usn't like my stuff , and it hurt me to take , but looking back it helped me develop

Whatever happened to ol' oriel, haven't seen him about in ages.

sunny2004

thebaz wrote: »

most true artists are sensitive people ,

I am not..

In addition I think its childish getting hot under the collar about another persons opinion..


If anyone comments on that I will cry...

nilhg

sasar wrote: »

To be honest, I don't see what's the point of C&C. I have never asked for it and never will, just because I shoot for myself.

Which is fair enough in itself, but you also have to consider have you ever learned anything just by reading the other C&C threads which others have started?

I know that I don't contribute much to C&C threads (I usually know what I like but often dont have the language to express adequately why), but have learned lots, often at the expanse of the poor poster whose wings have been clipped.

elven

I think the big question is what you're actually looking for when you post something up for C&C. The main problem is that usually people post up a fairly random shot, don't say what they were trying to do with it, then wonder why people can't give them something constructive. On the other hand, I would be in the camp that believes "it's crap" is not helpful. The most helpful thing for those shots is probably to explain how to use the settings better for the situation but more importantly... ask the OP what they were actually trying to show when they took the picture because I think we all get so caught up in the technical stuff at the expense of content.

sasar

nilhg wrote: »

...have you ever learned anything just by reading the other C&C threads which others have started?...

I have indeed. I look at someone's c&c and try to compare it with what I think of the shot, then try to understand why does he think so and so. It's more like a monologue.

AnCatDubh

Hugh_C wrote: »

Whatever happened to ol' oriel, haven't seen him about in ages.

I think he might have C&C'd once too often (other forum if memory serves me right)

I think his ghost still haunts these parts though from time to time.

rahtkennades

It seems that C & C is being misinterpreted sometimes. Some posters put up a photo (or series) and want people to offer technical opinions on how to improve the picture. Other people want people to say that it's nice. Still again sometimes people don't honestly know and want opinions.

Maybe an answer is to have the option of posting for "C & C" when technical feedback is required, and "Opinions" when you just want the "Yeah, I like" or "It's cr4p".

For the "Opinions" category, it should be left to the poster to decide if they want to put context on the picture. After all, if I walk into a gallery and look at a picture on the wall, there's usually no context, I just make a decision that I like it or not. And there's nothing invalid about wanting people's opinions on a shot, sometimes I can't decide if I like something or not, it's useful to get a second opinion.

On the other hand, for the "C&C" category the poster should have to give a minimum background information or a description of the type of feedback they want (eg "Would this look better B&W?" or "How would I get such and such an effect with this shot")

Just a thought.

0utpost31

sasar wrote: »

To be honest, I don't see what's the point of C&C. I have never asked for it and never will, just because I shoot for myself.

Yes you have

It just doesn't really bother me what other people say about my stuff.

That's the right attitude to have.

Remeber that owlwink guy?

His photos were absolutely slated by most of the forum...

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055345614

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055345586

And he took it very well, kept his cool and didn't sulk.

"C & C" when technical feedback is required, and "Opinions" when you just want the "Yeah, I like" or "It's cr4p".

That's a really good idea but you'll never get everyone to follow those rules, charter & rules will have to be updated etc...

Dragan

0utpost31 wrote: »

Remeber that owlwink guy?

His photos were absolutely slated by most of the forum...

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055345614

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055345586

And he took it very well, kept his cool and didn't sulk....

In fairness he didn't really go about it the best way. Far too much rubbishy blurb that he later confessed he made up on the spot! He also never stated what he wanted, and when people pointed out things that he may have done wrong he said on both occassions ( I believe ) that they were unfinished images. That pretty much a picture perfect way to annoy people and a fine example of a poor way of going about getting C&C.

He also had a thread about photos of fields being burnt and I seem to remember them being judged solely on the image and the response being positive?

That's a really good idea but you'll never get everyone to follow those rules, charter & rules will have to be updated etc...

Truth is you don't need everyone to agree, you just need enough people to agree that something would benefit the forum as a whole and then ammend the charter. After that it's just a matter of poking people into line.:)