London 2012 - whats the future of Irish track and field - how can we medal

thirtyfoot

Lots of questions being asked by a small number of people in several of the threads, but few answers from these people. What do people think can be done to maybe get more track and field finalists in London '12 and a couple of genuine medal contenders. Any thoughts?

Mine would be:

Get more kids from the schools competing
Get a better base of quality coaches.
Elite "High Performance" setup like the boxing for our juniors and U23, get them to train together in groups of excellence, eg, based in Dublin.
Capitalize on any potential "Bolt Effect" which the sport may experience in the next few years.
Improve domestic competition.
Get national coaches of all disciplines.
Create a Team Ireland culture.
Use our elite athletes to give the message to the younger ones. I've noticed how most of the elites say they love the sport and want it to suceed in the country.
Reduce the number of clubs or create a feeder system.

eagle eye

The setup is all wrong here at the moment. We need the funds to have fulltime regional coaches, and about ten in Dublin, who can travel around and identify the talent at a younger age and try to get them seriously involved. I agree that we need a centre of excellence for our athletes where they can be coached to a much higher standard.

Really the right leadership is required and of course it cannot happen without the the all important funds. I don't see our government ever giving Track and Field the funds it requires to flourish.

titan18

I answered in the other thread but anway,I think that we should look at what the British and Chinese have done and are doing to develop their.The Australians have already said that they are going to look at what the British have done and copy it.We might as well do it too.But I think that London will be the same as Beijing but that we should look at the primary schools now and develop the talent from there and at the early stages in secondary school and tehn in about 10 years time,we should see a lot of quality athletes,swimmers,gymnasts,cyclists in Ireland competeing in international competitions and not just the Olympics.


Also in swimming,Bree said that he finds it very hard to get a swimming pool for training and that hes lucky to get an hour every few days.Whereas Adlington can get up to 3 hours a day and the Nottingham county council make sure of it.They also pay for her coach and make sure evrything is perfect.When we get top talent in any sport we should make sure they get everything possible to achieve good results.Hession,O Keefe and 1 or 2 others should get the same.However,it should only be for people with medal chances or to finish in the top 6 in your field.It is down to the coaching at underage levels and the improvement in infrastructure thats needed and to get a love of these sports amongst youngsters so that they will pick these over GAA,soccer and rugby

aburke

It's way too late for London - you know that Tingle.

If Ireland was a serious sporting country [like Australia or NZ], or a serious Olympic country [like China or the UK], we would have jumped on the announcement that London had been selected as the host city.

Ireland will never host the Olympics, so a London games is the closest thing to a home games in our lifetime.

London was selected in July 2005, giving 7 years of preparation.
Probably a bit late but if the effort and money was put into it, we could certainly improve the chance of the then 12-17 year olds making the games.

But anyway - what could we do in the meantime?

We could make sure talented juniors don't silp through the ranks, such as Colin Costello and Adrian O' Dywer. [ I'm open to correction on where they are or what they are up to now, but they weren't in Beijing...]

Get specialist coaches from overseas if necessary. Zor Anthia [spelling?] is from Georgia, not St Michaels in Athy.
Rowing have a German who brought success to Australia before he took up his position here, and while things didn't work out this time [they have since gone for another specialist lightweight coach for that crew], they could be on the right path for London.

Overall, many of the individual sporting bodies, AAI included, seem to be slowly getting their house in order, but there is only so much that can be done in a short time frame.

One point in another thread brought it home to me as to what our expectations should be.
We are not a sporting country, as watching sports on TV doesn't count.
I was never much into sports as a kid, but I still played a bit of soccer, Hurling and Gaelic Football. I even have community games medals from local sports. It was just what everybody did, and the cream rose to the top.

The kids aren't playing sports as much now - so we will have even less cream rising to the top.

Sorry if it all sounds depressing - just a dose of reality.

For my own part, I'm hoping our own club can find someone to join Paul Hession in London!

ZiggyStardust

Are the community games still on anymore? I think they are, but are they as popular. I remember growing up and everyone in my school (regardless of whether they were into athletics are not) coming up to the athletic club the weeks before the community games area finals to train for them. I know they didn't continue training afterwards although some did, but this was brilliant and the community games were great for not just the elite guys but also for getting people out exercising.
I may stand corrected but to me they are not as popular. Is it a marketing thing or are schools informing pupils of them being on.

I think Costello was having some issues in Arkansas where there was even a threat of him being kicked out.
There were great prospects for himself and Danny Darcy a few years ago.

aburke wrote: »

For my own part, I'm hoping our own club can find someone to join Paul Hession in London!

Off topic, Alan, did I hear you on Radio 1 talking about Hession the morning of his semi final. Well there was an Alan Burke from athenry talking about his chances and where everyone would be watching it. Was meant to ask you earlier.

LacticAthlete

I think we give our elite athletes enough in the current econimic climate, giving them more support now wont have such a huge impact, however we should be developing our young juniors from u16s upwards.I dont suggest young athletes recieve any money but the fact we dont even get spoken to by the officals. Officals should be in contact with us to offer advice and pointers. Im a top ten junior in my event and ive never ever been spoken to by a national offical, what kind of back up is that?

We wonder why our athletes drop off at this age, yes drinking,yes nights out but a little interest from the top would surely keep a few more athletes in the sport.

Get more kids from the schools competing
A tough one, i also coach kids at my local club and kids dont have any interest in running just field events as they bascailly cant be arsed. Unless you get a very special coach or p.e teacher, its tough to get them interested in even basic fitness.
Get a better base of quality coaches.
Only recently have AAI been pushing this so i cant see any improvement here for 2-3 years.
Improve domestic competition.
Dublin graded has led the way but i think there should be closer co-op with IMC(irish milers club) or possibly a merger, theres no need for a division here and it just makes it a division of resources. Efforts should be made to attract athletes from britian and the rest of ireland. However the event would have to be better run than it is. Id also suggest a contiuation of the Morton memorial meet. if AAI could add another international event and run it like a mini grand prix circuit it would be a great step forward. The problem is attendances, i must admit that anytime ive been to the cork city sports, there has been a poor level of atttendance, this is due to high ticket prices. To rectify this club tickets for around 75 euro should be sold and clubs should be allowed bring as many members as they like. Ths would surely make for a better atmosphere.
Reduce the number of clubs or create a feeder system

I have to agree, in cork there 37 clubs
listed in alphabetical order

Abbey Striders, Ballincollig, Bandon, Bantry, Ballymore Cobh, Beara, Belgooly, Blarney Inniscarra, Carbery Harriers, Carraig na bhFear, Carrigtohill, CIT AC, Courcies, Dohenys, Donoughmore, Duhallow, Eagle, East Cork, Fanahan McSweeney, Grange Fermoy, Glenbower, Leevale, Liscarroll, Mallow, Midleton, Millstreet, North Cork, Old Abbey, Rising Sun. Riverstick Kinsale, Skibbereen, St Finbarrs, Togher, Tracton, UCC, West Muskerry, Youghal.


Why? lol. The biggest clubs are Leevale,togher,bandon,eagle and finbarrs. Surely these clubs could act as the senior athletic clubs with junior athletes from other clubs joining these. As well as the two third level institutions as two other senior clubs

Edit also the master rank should be removed. Before master competitions became popular, what did older athletes do when the legs started to go? how did they show thier love of the sport, coaching. Not training like olympians at 46 years of age because they didnt have a childhood. Master events are pointless and are holding back the development of real athlete who have no coaching.

aburke

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

Off topic, Alan, did I hear you on Radio 1 talking about Hession the morning of his semi final. Well there was an Alan Burke from athenry talking about his chances and where everyone would be watching it. Was meant to ask you earlier.

Yep, that was me.
Just to clarify, I'm a recreational road runner who just happens to be the current chairman.
I've done pretty much nothing to help Paul Hession along, nor am I really involved with juvenile athletics.
There are plenty of others within our club who deserve credit, but Paul Hession is the proverbial self-made man in many ways.
It's hard to get all that across in 2 minutes on air ;-)
Still though, the media want a talking head, and many others wouldn't be comfortable with live media interviews, so I was happy to do that stuff.

ZiggyStardust

aburke wrote: »

Yep, that was me.
Just to clarify, I'm a recreational road runner who just happens to be the current chairman.
I've done pretty much nothing to help Paul Hession along, nor am I really involved with juvenile athletics.
There are plenty of others within our club who deserve credit, but Paul Hession is the proverbial self-made man in many ways.
It's hard to get all that across in 2 minutes on air ;-)
Still though, the media want a talking head, and many others wouldn't be comfortable with live media interviews, so I was happy to do that stuff.

Good stuff. You came across well.
I used to know Paul McNamara well. We had many a battle at 1500m at underage level. Nice to still see him doing well.

thirtyfoot

LacticAthlete wrote: »

I think we give our elite athletes enough in the current econimic climate, giving them more support now wont have such a huge impact, however we should be developing our young juniors from u16s upwards.I dont suggest young athletes recieve any money but the fact we dont even get spoken to by the officals. Officals should be in contact with us to offer advice and pointers. Im a top ten junior in my event and ive never ever been spoken to by a national offical, what kind of back up is that?

We wonder why our athletes drop off at this age, yes drinking,yes nights out but a little interest from the top would surely keep a few more athletes in the sport.

You are bang on. Communication must be improved as small things could make a difference. There are many people out there (like myself) who would be willing to provide a mentoring servive to younger athletes. 20-30 mentors could cover half a dozen young athletes each and be in email contact etc giving advice, opinion etc from someone outside their existing club.

LacticAthlete wrote: »

Improve domestic competition.
Dublin graded has led the way but i think there should be closer co-op with IMC(irish milers club) or possibly a merger, theres no need for a division here and it just makes it a division of resources. Efforts should be made to attract athletes from britian and the rest of ireland. However the event would have to be better run than it is. Id also suggest a contiuation of the Morton memorial meet. if AAI could add another international event and run it like a mini grand prix circuit it would be a great step forward. The problem is attendances, i must admit that anytime ive been to the cork city sports, there has been a poor level of atttendance, this is due to high ticket prices. To rectify this club tickets for around 75 euro should be sold and clubs should be allowed bring as many members as they like. Ths would surely make for a better atmosphere.
.

Yes, more joined up thinking. A simple EAP event would be possible. A domestic "grand prix" circuit would be good, Leevale Sports, Munster/Leinster/Ulster/Connacht open champs, some of the Dublin graded etc etc with points and prizes for overall winners - like the UK Challenge.

LacticAthlete wrote: »

Reduce the number of clubs or create a feeder system

I have to agree, in cork there 37 clubs
listed in alphabetical order

Abbey Striders, Ballincollig, Bandon, Bantry, Ballymore Cobh, Beara, Belgooly, Blarney Inniscarra, Carbery Harriers, Carraig na bhFear, Carrigtohill, CIT AC, Courcies, Dohenys, Donoughmore, Duhallow, Eagle, East Cork, Fanahan McSweeney, Grange Fermoy, Glenbower, Leevale, Liscarroll, Mallow, Midleton, Millstreet, North Cork, Old Abbey, Rising Sun. Riverstick Kinsale, Skibbereen, St Finbarrs, Togher, Tracton, UCC, West Muskerry, Youghal.


.

Club politics is killing this and preventing in many cases athletes of same events and similar ability training together.

LacticAthlete wrote: »

Edit also the master rank should be removed. Before master competitions became popular, what did older athletes do when the legs started to go? how did they show thier love of the sport, coaching. Not training like olympians at 46 years of age because they didnt have a childhood. Master events are pointless and are holding back the development of real athlete who have no coaching.

This is a touchy subject but something I agree with too although I have mellowed recently and think we won't change and will have to source coaches elsewhere. Having said that there are many great vets and you have to admire them but yes a dearth of good quality coaches is a problem.

Its pretty impressive that you are a junior and you coach too:cool:

shels4ever

I'd agree with that, London is going to have to be a games we uild on, if wher have anytone young coming through in the next 2 years they should be give a chance . But an 8-12 year plan is what we need.

Still need to improve track and field @ schools level, There is no reason we shouldn't have a school V's shool meet in every area.

Pride Fighter

The best chance is in the field with technical events such as throwing and jumping. We should have fielded a 4x400m relay team this time around, we did in Athens and did quite well. We should also develop some multi-eventers who can give the decathlon a lash.
The swimming guy on RTE said that 17 year olds should be offered an education to keep them training full time. Some sort of smaller scale US collegiate system here could be a good thing to do.

brutes

Some maybe off point issues are

The fact that many potential young athletes are playing GAA and are lost to athletics
- can they or how can they be attracted to athletics or to stick with it

The major drop off post 17/18 y/old in particpation competitively ,must be 90% , certainly in the West region, present writer included (not v competitive but something of regret now). I could count the number of 18-30 year olds in any road race over summer on both hands in most races over here .

Coaching at senior level or the lack of, outside major Dublin clubs, how available is it?

Not being involved at the top level I may be missing something here but certainly these do appear an issue at club level, but from speaking to them ,the few top level athletes in Galway are largely left to emails from coaches or their own devices

thirtyfoot

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The best chance is in the field with technical events such as throwing and jumping. .

I agree with you but we need to get the coaches first. There are a few around the country but far and few between.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

. We should have fielded a 4x400m relay team this time around, we did in Athens and did quite well. .

They tried but missed out as only top 16 went and they were 17th or 18th. It was their own initiative (Project400) and they tried everything in their powers to get there. Its an event they could final in 4 years though with Gillick and Gregan (world junior finalist this year) and Woods (only 16) coming through.

Dodge

titan18 wrote: »

Also in swimming,Bree said that he finds it very hard to get a swimming pool for training and that hes lucky to get an hour every few days

Just on this point, Bree lives and trains in Nashville at the University of Tennessee.

All god points lads, but the majority of it boils down to funding. I'm sure AI would love to be able to employ elite specialist coaches and regional "academy" coaces, but where is the money going to come from?

A question needs to be asked as to whether the sport solely defines itself on medals. I know medals inspire everybody but is it better to have the odd world class athlate like Sonia or Catriona McKiernan or have a team capable of sending 20-25 athletes to an Olympics or World Championship? I'd argue that if you start aiming for the latter, the overall standard will improve, and hopefully medals will follow.

thirtyfoot

Dodge wrote: »

All god points lads, but the majority of it boils down to funding. I'm sure AI would love to be able to employ elite specialist coaches and regional "academy" coaces, but where is the money going to come from?

.

There are paid regional development officers in place who's job spec probably could be defined better and refined so as to get better value for money (I know some who are doing a super job practically 7 days of the week). We have full-time coaches, we have a High Performance Director. The new CEO won't be taking sh*t going forward and much as the athletes have to deliver these will have to deliver too through measurable KPI. How can hurdlers progress if you don't have a National Hurdles Coach who they can get advice from. What if you are a discus thrower, do we have a go to Discus coach to get advice from? Maybe we do but go to the AAI site and I can't find this data. Check out lacticathlete, no communication from anyone on how to progress.

Not all suggestions are required from the top, many can be achieved by ordinary members - its like the employees of a company complaining that this place is sh*t and the management are useless, when in fact many times those complaining are management and leaders who can make a difference.

Regional centres of excellence could be created by reducing clubs and creating "Super Clubs". Great coaches exist in many clubs but if we had all the great coaches of a county centered in one or two clubs then younger athletes could feed to these "super clubs" instead of belting away in the ar*e-hole of nowhere. Won't cost much (apart from a lot of political pain).

Dodge wrote: »

A question needs to be asked as to whether the sport solely defines itself on medals. I know medals inspire everybody but is it better to have the odd world class athlate like Sonia or Catriona McKiernan or have a team capable of sending 20-25 athletes to an Olympics or World Championship? I'd argue that if you start aiming for the latter, the overall standard will improve, and hopefully medals will follow.

I agree with this and more depth will solve this and I believe improving domestic competition will help add more depth.

As a national level athlete in this country you have to go overseas many times to get compeition. Not good if you want to race but you have to dip into your pocket to just compete. A pretty good reason for many to quit.

dna_leri

I think there are two key age groups we need to focus on:

1. 10-13 years where children start participating in other sports and if athletics don't get them the better organised GAA, soccer & rugby will. We need to focus on getting them to participate, particularly through primary schools and early years of secondary. Coaches, RDO's, local athletics clubs need to get into schools where they will usually be welcomed. This won't help us in 2012, but we need to take the long view for 2020.

By the way community games does exist with varying levels of participation by county - the biggest problem with CG right now is the lack of communities. This weekend hundreds of 8-16 year olds participated in national level competition of which athletics is still the centre-point. I am open to correction, but I bet no other single event has so many young people running, throwing and jumping as this weekend in Mosney (yes, it's still in that crummy location for the last year). Instead of AAI looking down at CG as some individuals do, they need to embrace the opportunity to work with the athletes - some of whom will be our medallists in 2016 & 2020, with the right kind of talent identification - and bring them into the club structures.

2. The second age group that needs higher focus is the 17-21, where many of us drift away from the sport (and possibly all sports). Yes, we need a high performance setup for our juniors, but we need to target more than just the elite group, it also needs a broad focus as athletes are still developing and may yet turn into the 2012 & 2016 finalists. Lack of facilities and coaching/mentoring are big reasons why athletes turn away at this stage - I know we now have plenty of outdoor tracks but indoor facilities are appalling.

Clubs do have a role to play but many of them are too narrow in their focus - the 37 in Cork is replicated throughout the country on a smaller scale. The AAI needs to incentivise clubs to amalgamate - the county teams participating at National Leagues is a start.

Masters/veterans have been mentioned as part of the problem - they should be seen as part of the solution. They (we) are a resource that AAI/clubs need to utilise - get them involved in coaching or administration - many do that already - others just need to be shown how.

However I think the greatest influence on young competitors are those who are still competing or have just finished. As a junior athlete, as part of a high performance junior group who would you rather listen to Derval, Sonia or Eamonn? BTW what is Sonia's current role in AAI?

Its great to hear that those of you in the know have faith in the latest AAI leadership, but there is a long way to go. First step should be to set targets for 2012, 2016 & 2020 and then a plan to get them - otherwise we will all be here in 12 years time, older, wiser but with a sense that we could have done better... if only...

Since we got 4 top 10/finalists this time around, how about the following goals for future: 6 in 2012, 8 in 2016, 10 in 2020. If we get enough into the finals, with luck and raw talent the medals will come.

Marathon Man

As it has been said, it is probably too late now to do much regarding London. The Olympics is only once every 4 years and as far as the majority of people are concerned the athletes just emerge at this time and then fade away somewhere until the next Olympics. The profile of athletics as a serious competitive enterprise needs to be addressed. I feel that although more publicity has been generated with events such as the Great Dublin/North run, Mini Marathon, Dublin Marathon etc., athletics has suffered as it is viewed by many as merely a keep fit exercise. To 'do' a Marathon is considered an achievement and while many will argue with me that it is, that type of thinking won't win us any medals. Look at the amount of Irish Marathoners in the 80's running very good times in comparison to now. The structures weren't in place then. So what has changed? In my view it is that with cushy lifestyles, the need for people to push themselves to the limit has been pushed away. Our genetics haven't changed.

thirtyfoot

Lets suspend reality for a minute and paint a picture of a potential club scene in Ireland and let me know whether people think this would work.

Its a cheap way to create centres of excellence in the country, create a "Super Club" licensing scheme. To become a Super Club you would require:

• Access to a track
• Certain number of Level II Coaches - across all disciplines (incl jumps/throws etc)
• A Director of Coaching - minimum Level III
• Minimum number of COMPETING juvenile athletes at county level
• Link with at least one local school
• Link with at least one local "feeder" club

Give a 3 year deadline to implement the scheme and the clubs would need to get the coaching and various links organised. Only 9-10 licenses could be issues but so what, we would have 9-10 great clubs who got there because of their own drive and iniative with proper structures and coaches. All other clubs feed into this club at senior/junior level. You still have your smaller clubs in the villages and towns and training in the parish field or GAA pitch. Change doesn't always have to come from the top, it can be best to come from bottom up sometimes.

It would be a marketing tool that these super clubs could use, we are a licensed club so come to us and we have the best coaches to help you achieve. You fail to keep up your standard, you lose your license or you reach the standard you get a license.

thirtyfoot

dna_leri wrote: »

However I think the greatest influence on young competitors are those who are still competing or have just finished. As a junior athlete, as part of a high performance junior group who would you rather listen to Derval, Sonia or Eamonn? BTW what is Sonia's current role in AAI?

Thats a good point. Many athletes would be willing to help. Hesh said this last week when he heard his exploites were making the news “I am delighted to hear that news because I am a big fan of track and field and I believe that Irish athletics needs all the help and media exposure that it can get,”. Most of the athletes deeply care about the sport and would be willing to help I believe. On Sonia, as far as I know I believe she will be getting more involved in promoting the sport pretty soon.

RoyMcC

Tingle wrote: »

Lets suspend reality for a minute and paint a picture of a potential club scene in Ireland and let me know whether people think this would work.

Its a cheap way to create centres of excellence in the country, create a "Super Club" licensing scheme. To become a Super Club you would require:

• Access to a track
• Certain number of Level II Coaches - across all disciplines (incl jumps/throws etc)
• A Director of Coaching - minimum Level III
• Minimum number of COMPETING juvenile athletes at county level
• Link with at least one local school
• Link with at least one local "feeder" club

Give a 3 year deadline to implement the scheme and the clubs would need to get the coaching and various links organised. Only 9-10 licenses could be issues but so what, we would have 9-10 great clubs who got there because of their own drive and iniative with proper structures and coaches. All other clubs feed into this club at senior/junior level. You still have your smaller clubs in the villages and towns and training in the parish field or GAA pitch. Change doesn't always have to come from the top, it can be best to come from bottom up sometimes.

It would be a marketing tool that these super clubs could use, we are a licensed club so come to us and we have the best coaches to help you achieve. You fail to keep up your standard, you lose your license or you reach the standard you get a license.

Absolutely it would work, if it could be put into place. But as you yourself have identified it would be nigh impossible to push through because of the petty politics that dogs athletics. Committees (or in practice the one or two strong characters) of the 'smaller' clubs would rather go into defensive mode and preserve their empires rather than embrace change for the wider good.

As has been said elsewhere there is much that can be done at grassroots level by the ordinary, enthusiastic administrators and coaches. Get together a 5-Year Plan, take the initiative, get into the schools. There is so much that can be done but it needs people to do some planning and then to get off their backsides and do it.

dedon

Basically if the money given to sport is more evenly distributed. The amount of money given to GAA is disgraceful. A hurler is not going to win you an Olympic medal.

Furthermore, the lotto money (billions of it) needs to be given to other sports and not all to GAA

thirtyfoot

dedon wrote: »

Basically if the money given to sport is more evenly distributed. The amount of money given to GAA is disgraceful. A hurler is not going to win you an Olympic medal.

Furthermore, the lotto money (billions of it) needs to be given to other sports and not all to GAA

Lads, this is not about the GAA. They have nearly a million members, they deserve all they get. They allow many athletic clubs use facilities up and down the country. They have links to athletics from back in the day (tailteann games etc). We can whinge and be bitter at their success story or we can do something about it or even learn a thing or two.

LordSutch

I got the impression many Irish people gave a 'luke warm' response to London getting the 2012 Games!

Probably too late to enthuse the country for 2012, but hopefully team IRL will do better than in Beijing, & as already been said (in another Thread) I fully expect the newly aquired immigrent population to bring their sporting tallents to the 2016 Olympic Team, therby giving the selectors a much bigger pool of athletes to choose from. If nothing else, many in Ireland will tire of hearing GSTQ & seeing the Union Flag being hoisted every other day in 2012 and this 'might' just spur Team IRL into action for 2016

ChickenTikka

dna_leri wrote: »

Clubs do have a role to play but many of them are too narrow in their focus - the 37 in Cork is replicated throughout the country on a smaller scale. The AAI needs to incentivise clubs to amalgamate - the county teams participating at National Leagues is a start.

I'm not sure if amalgamating clubs is the right direction to go in. Some one else on this forum commented that Cork clubs have the strongest results in juvenile track & field. This suggests that their model is better in fact than what exists in other counties.

AAI should conduct a study of performance and club structures across the country now and historically. I'm sure history will show clubs disintegrating and athletes moving to a club further away. Did this improve standards and participation? Who knows - analysis is required. My view is that it demolishes participation because of the extra travel involved. And that in turn reduces standards.

Or AAI could look at the model used by the most successful sports organisation in the country - the GAA. Their model provides every community and every locality with a club for their own community. And levels of competition appropriate to members of the various grades within that club so that all members can achieve at their own level. It provides an intercounty scene that dominates the sports pages of all newspapers throughout our summer. It gives a sense of identify to a club and thats a huge strength.

Athletes who are still in primary or secondary education need to train locally where its convenient for both them and their parents. Parents cannot manage an hour's round trip to from training midweek with another 1 or 1.5 hrs of training in between. There's homework to be done, dinner to be cooked, other kids interests to be looked after etc.

That's not to say that an athlete shouldn't be able to avail of a particular coach in another club who has greater expertise in that athete's event. Clubs need to cooperate on this and some do so already.

So developing the intercounty scene, inter-club cooperation and also the AAI regional athletic squads is the way forward in my opinion. (The latter started off really well in late 07/early 08 but unfortunately seems to have fizzled out since last April).

thirtyfoot

I like Vern Gambetta, most stuff he writes makes sense.

http://www.elitetrack.com/blogs/details/3999/

The Jamaican Secret Revealed

Vern Gambetta Monday, 25 August 2008

I came across this on the BBC Sport website. I have to admit it warmed my heart to see this. According to the country's sports minister Olivia Grange, Jamaica gets a jump on its rivals right from the start.
I always talk about the triple T - tradition, talent and training. We have an extremely good school system. In our primary schools, physical education is mandatory, and we actually start competing from early childhood. We have our prep school championships, primary school championships, our secondary school championships.
For all of you out there looking for the secret it is right there in front of us. It is the same secret that developed all those great American athletes from the past. Physical education is the foundation for later athletic achievement. Way too simple for our country to understand or accept. It is not about kinesio tape, altitude tents, underwater treadmills, it is simple, get kids moving doing athletic activities. Let’s get real PE back into the schools and bring the focus of our athletic competition back to the schools.

Diamondmaker

Tingle wrote: »

Lots of questions being asked by a small number of people in several of the threads, but few answers from these people. .

No answers suggested at any point were given any credence from the regulars. In fact some poster actively encouraged others not to participate in a healthy debate.

The "small number" are not qualified to give answers, we are but occasional spectators, but we are entitled to ask questions..........

Ill try any way:

To get increased funding to implement any ideas discussed here there are 3 options

1. Govt Funding
2. Make Athletics clubs draw greater numbers
3. Private investment

Option 1 requires the Govt to go out on a limb and pump money into something that the public may not agree with being increased, after all there are so many more things the public would like to see the money go on.
However some "short sighted" techniques designed at delivering some actual medals would:
1. get public support
2. raise profile ( required for option 2 )
3. Create interest for private investment.

Once some success has been achieved the door is open to go with the hat out and seek funding private or otherwise. With a few medals on the neck the Govt is more likely to feel the public will accept an support this, private investement bangs down the doors of winners and numbers will increase at clubs out of interest and the O'Bolt effect.

Now if we get a few high profile winners, at a high profile Olympics, ie. London, through a short term concentrated elite system, as noncensically suggested elsewhere.....

( no injured or off form travelling, Martahon runners expected to place in the top 50 or individuals with PBs realistically not in the running)

............we can then hope to use some basic financial principles, as above to secure funding for a longer term plan.

Until we get success it is going to be very difficult to get any funding into the system. Who wants to back a losing horse, sponsor the last place runner or join the club where the guy did not get out of his heat trains???

thirtyfoot

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Once some success has been achieved the door is open to go with the hat out and seek funding private or otherwise. With a few medals on the neck the Govt is more likely to feel the public will accept an support this, private investement bangs down the doors of winners and numbers will increase at clubs out of interest and the O'Bolt effect.

Interestingly, Denis O' Brien owns Digicel and they sponsor Jamaican athletics. He flew Bolt's father over for the final.

Maybe he could do a Trappatoni and bank roll the appointment of Michael Johnson as the new Director of Athletics!

Diamondmaker

Tingle wrote: »

Interestingly, Denis O' Brien owns Digicel and they sponsor Jamaican athletics. He flew Bolt's father over for the final.

Maybe he could do a Trappatoni and bank roll the appointment of Michael Johnson as the new Director of Athletics!

Point proven.

DOB jumped on the Cricket success at the time and the smart Cookie he is, did it again with the Jamaicans.

Im sure he would love to do the same for an Irish athlete but it requires them to actualy win 1st, again no one thrown money at a loser.

Thats why I feel we should focus purely on results for 1 Olympics, then use the hopeful success to take a good business plan to the Denis OBs etc of this nation and make hay........London is an ideal opportunity to sacrifice the "big picture" for the "small picture" for the "bigger picture"

shels4ever

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Point proven.

DOB jumped on the Cricket success at the time and the smart Cookie he is, did it again with the Jamaicans.

Im sure he would love to do the same for an Irish athlete but it requires them to actualy win 1st, again no one thrown money at a loser.

Thats why I feel we should focus purely on results for 1 Olympics, then use the hopeful success to take a good business plan to the Denis OBs etc of this nation and make hay........London is an ideal opportunity to sacrifice the "big picture" for the "small picture" for the "bigger picture"

How can this be done without any larger plan.... ? You cna't jsut focus on one olympic it takes long term planning, yo umay get lucky a produce someone great but for the most part yout talking 8-12 years of training

Diamondmaker

shels4ever wrote: »

How can this be done without any larger plan.... ? You cna't jsut focus on one olympic it takes long term planning, yo umay get lucky a produce someone great but for the most part yout talking 8-12 years of training

Take the best of this current teasm talent and the best in the system right now and drop all the fat. Give our small best of group the best, send them to the US or China for 4 years whatever. Focus it all ona the best few with the sole idea of winning some medals.
Short term will suffer but as I said you launch your long term plan off the back of the success above.
You can implement any number of 8-12 year plans based off the back of an all or nothing short term plan. I am not qualified to discuss the more subtleties of athletics developmnet plans in the long term but your gonna need cash and young blood to launch it and it aint there now.

Tingle has got the idea. Its gonna take a bold move to do it.
You cant launch a 12 year plan without interest or money. You need short term success to raise profiles to implement a longer term plan.
If the short term plan fails we only are as well off as we have been the last Olympics....so whats to lose.

thirtyfoot

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Cricket success

How can you call the cricket a success at a sport where they finish only top 8 in a sport played by maybe 15-20 nations and yet the athletes are losers. But anyway, you are right and I agree with your points on getting external sponsors and having a big focus on London and get the bandwagon going from there but at the same time getting the basics of the pyramid setup. I knew we'd get it out of you eventually, at this stage I would say you are in fact not part of the bar-stool brigade:D

Diamondmaker

Tingle wrote: »

How can you call the cricket a success at a sport where they finish only top 8 in a sport played by maybe 15-20 nations and yet the athletes are losers. But anyway, you are right and I agree with your points on getting external sponsors and having a big focus on London and get the bandwagon going from there but at the same time getting the basics of the pyramid setup. I knew we'd get it out of you eventually, at this stage I would say you are in fact not part of the bar-stool brigade:D

Sorry will clarify. Maybe the cricketers were not "winners "per se but they did enough to get the nation to take notice, the soccer team did it on Euro 88 and Italia 90 and the rugby with their 1st triple Crown of Pro era.

Unfortunately similar levels for athletes, is winning medals.

Extreme example:
Take 5 atletes and 5 athletes only and give them EVERYTHING, sned abroad, hire MJ what ever.........say 1 wins gold.
Thats when profile is raised and kids want to do what that guy did.
Private investors hop on band wagons and want tio be associated with this brand.
Politicians do to as suck ups.
Then you present a long term development plan, with perhaps a tiny elite crew continuing in an attempt to bring in other medlas in parallel, and drum up support for a more sustainable system while the sun is shining .

We need kids to want to emulate heroes we dont have before we put a great plan into place.

As I said if it fails we are no worse off the whole sytem need a radical shake up and without a fairy god father or serious public spending we wil have to be more inventive and entrepreneurial. ( hard word to spell, open for smart arse correction

cfitz

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Sorry will clarify. Maybe the cricketers were not "winners "per se but they did enough to get the nation to take notice, the soccer team did it on Euro 88 and Italia 90 and the rugby with their 1st triple Crown of Pro era.

If a few Irish athletes were to achieve major success at European Championships might that be enough to produce some heroes? People got behind the cricketers because of relative success at a competition that they knew nothing about...

ZiggyStardust

I'm not sure if the euopean athletics championships are high profile enough to get the interest of the ordinary public, but I think you're right. We have done well in these in the past and if we can get a few gold medals in 2010(Hession, Gillick, O'rourke, McGettigan, O'Keefe et al) and the media coverage is there and positive, it might change people outlook. Hope so anyway.

Diamondmaker

cfitz wrote: »

If a few Irish athletes were to achieve major success at European Championships might that be enough to produce some heroes? People got behind the cricketers because of relative success at a competition that they knew nothing about...

Hard to know. I think only the Olympics really matters with regard to exposure and increasing profile . Even the worlds does not get notice from the Public thats required.

Stupid_Private

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Hard to know. I think only the Olympics really matters with regard to exposure and increasing profile . Even the worlds does not get notice from the Public thats required.

You can't walk into a spar without seeing Derval O'Rourkes face after her silver in the Europeans

cfitz

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Hard to know. I think only the Olympics really matters with regard to exposure and increasing profile . Even the worlds does not get notice from the Public thats required.

I would be inclined to agree with you, so how come the cricketers got attention - just good marketing? Is it a case of needing to capture the public's imagination rather than producing actual results?

Diamondmaker

cfitz wrote: »

I would be inclined to agree with you, so how come the cricketers got attention - just good marketing? Is it a case of needing to capture the public's imagination rather than producing actual results?

The cricket, was to me the "cool runnings" under dog effect. Making the last 8 and beating a Super power....thats success in reative terms given our past and part time cricketers.

However back to Athletics, having won medals right back in 56 and beyond success is only now avaialble in Gold....Gold is whats required, a hero, one of ours to be Olympic Champion !

If Ireland qualified for the final in the upcoming Rugby League World Cup that may have an under dog effect even making it out of the group.

But for our Union team, nothing more than a 6 nations title or Garnd slam will increase its current profile. Not even the oft won European Cup.

Its all reletaive to past success Id say.

thirtyfoot

Stupid_Private wrote: »

You can't walk into a spar without seeing Derval O'Rourkes face after her silver in the Europeans

Interesting, could be a pitfall for putting all your eggs in one basket and focusing on only the very few elite. We focus on say 2 to 3 athletes only for London '12 and with the fickle nature of the sport and Kallur or Lolo Jones could happen and we are left with nothing. Mark Carroll made a good point we need more depth and more qualifiers so if Gillick is under par maybe Gregan would progress or if O' Rourke struggles, Mairead Murphy gets through.

Athletes like O' Rourke are marketable to the public and maybe more could have been done with her when she had her success - I understand she went to Brendan Hackett with her agent at the time and said "ok, what can I do to help" and got a wishy washy "ah sure we're grand" and they didn't use her to the max. Use the 'stars' to inspire the kids - people know Hesh now so they could use him. Also, Sonia, outside of the big ball sports she is our main sports star and she 'only' won a silver in Sydney. Another thing that is a good selling point for athletics is gender equality. If you are an 11 year old girl, who would appeal to you - Kenny Egan or Derval O' Rourke? For a boy, I'd say Egan but a girl would pick the prissy sprinter.

Diamondmaker

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Its gonna take a bold move to do it.
You cant launch a 12 year plan without interest or money. You need short term success to raise profiles to implement a longer term plan.
If the short term plan fails we only are as well off as we have been the last Olympics....so whats to lose.

I did say its high risk , but we have literlly nothing to lose from this point. Just delays implementing an off the shelf plan for 4 years.

Derlvla did not win an Olypic title, I think we have all agreed that even worlds amd certainly not indoors dont count.

If she won an Olympics and faded in the following Europeans she would still be a legend....its all about the Olympics. How come every one still rememers Delaney and in a more media savvy generation Sonia?
But Dervla will be forgotten, Olympic champions are different, esp when we have so few.

dna_leri

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Now if we get a few high profile winners, at a high profile Olympics, ie. London, through a short term concentrated elite system, as noncensically suggested elsewhere.....

For this to really work and become a focus for the development of athletics in Ireland, you need to get gold and that's too high risk a strategy. If we pick 5 top athletes and give them all the training, funding, coaching etc, there is still no guarantee of gold in London. If it was that easy every other country would do it. Lets be honest we do not have a realistic gold medal contentor for 2012, maybe some with an outside chance. In the meantime you would isolate and demotivate the other athletes who could have gone to 2012 and you will be left with no raw material for 2016.

There is no easy short-term solution. We need to set realistic goals for 2020 and put in place the structures to achieve them

cfitz

Diamondmaker wrote: »

If she won an Olympics and faded in the following Europeans she would still be a legend....its all about the Olympics. How come every one still rememers Delaney and in a more media savvy generation Sonia?

Everybody has a different perception of these things but I think Sonia was a huge name already by the time she won an Olympic medal. I don't think the medal increased her public profile that much.

Diamondmaker

dna_leri wrote: »

There is no easy short-term solution. We need to set realistic goals for 2020 and put in place the structures to achieve them

You are correct in everything say, but without the O'Bolt effect we wont have the talent wanting to go into our newly founded great system. We will only have the people who drift in at an older age or for some reason dont get swalllwoed up by the big 3 or 4.
Money, private investment and govt sponsorship from our current platform will also be trickier to raise than with a bit of success to work with.
Surely getting more numbers in the door and the raw talent is more important than the system in the 1st instance. This is where success is required.

As you say if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

What came 1st an Olympic Champion or a system that produced them??

dna_leri

Diamondmaker wrote: »

What came 1st an Olympic Champion or a system that produced them??

In 1976 (before Bolt was born) Jamaica won their first olympic gold in 24 yrs - Don Quarrie in the 200m.
Next gold was 1996 - Deon Hemmings in the women's 400m Hurdles, when Bolt was 13. Nothing in 2000 and 2 women's sprint golds in 2004.

What does that prove, that the system that produced Bolt started back in 1976 or 1996? Possibly, or maybe they are unrelated.

Not only would a focus on 1 Irish hero (The O'Bolt Plan) be high risk, even if it did happen, you might have to wait another 30 years for another one to come along as Jamaica did from Quarrie to Bolt.

Dr Watson

Is it the fault of the system or lack of it?

or

The raw materials that the system has to work with are not up to it- genetically do the Irish have anything going for them?

I fear the latter

Nolanger

If Coughlan couldn't win a medal what hope do the Irish newcomers have?

Pherekydes

Nolanger wrote: »

If Coughlan couldn't win a medal what hope do the Irish newcomers have?

Coghlan was quite clearly good enough. He won the world 5000m crown and held the mile record indoors for 18 years. A lot of things have to go your way to win a specific race (i.e. the Olympic title). He got it tactically wrong in 1976 and was unwell in 1980.

Diamondmaker

dna_leri wrote: »

In 1976 (before Bolt was born) Jamaica won their first olympic gold in 24 yrs - Don Quarrie in the 200m.
Next gold was 1996 - Deon Hemmings in the women's 400m Hurdles, when Bolt was 13. Nothing in 2000 and 2 women's sprint golds in 2004.

What does that prove, that the system that produced Bolt started back in 1976 or 1996? Possibly, or maybe they are unrelated.

Not only would a focus on 1 Irish hero (The O'Bolt Plan) be high risk, even if it did happen, you might have to wait another 30 years for another one to come along as Jamaica did from Quarrie to Bolt.

Now you are exagerating my point, I never said 1 athlete was to be developed I said we need one shining light.

Also Im completely agreeing to put in pace any number of systems suggested here but not impementing them ( or at least fully ) until there is more interest.

Again....what is the point in putting together a theoretiaclly great system but the raw input is not there. Raw input will increase with some success.

The genetic arguement is a problem how many sprinters to mid and long runners medalled that were caucasion? nteresting stats to be dug up if they could be....

So if thats the case we should plough all our money into boxing, sailing, rowing or the pool where caucasions have been shown to be the worlds best.
As much as a losing battle as fighting genes is, I dont think any one is going to give up on that basis. Maybe we should and focus all efforts on boxing, sailing and rowing.....We are not as far from medal level in those categories as we are in athletics arguably. But thats a bigger issue taboo here.....

thirtyfoot

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Maybe we should and focus all efforts on boxing, sailing and rowing.....We are not as far from medal level in those categories as we are in athletics arguably. But thats a bigger issue taboo here.....

Exactly and saying don't focus on track and field won't help us progress or help us medal in the sport so people aren't really interested in that option (in this thread anyway).

LordSutch

Dr Watson wrote: »

Is it the fault of the system or lack of it? or The raw materials that the system has to work with are not up to it- genetically do the Irish have anything going for them?

I fear the latter

You must not forget that Ireland is a small country (four million), and if you compare Irelands medal tally to the achievements of other small countries then I suspect you will find that 'Team IRL' has done averagely well in Beijing with One Silver & Two Bronze Medals.

There was a letter in yesterdays Irishtimes (Tuesday) listing the medal tally from several small states that competed in Beijing, and Ireland didnt look too bad at all when compared to them (Jamaica aside)

I say more effort should be put into Irelands 'natural' sports like Middledistance Running/ Steeplechase/ Boxing/ Canoeing/ Rowing/ Sailing/ Cycling/ dare I mention the jumping gee gees + any other sports that come naturally for London 2012.

The likes of Eamonn Coughlan or Sonia O'Sullivan will only come round once every ten or twenty years ~ unfortunately.

shels4ever

Well everyone is talking about what we can do and how we can help improve.. I've decided not to keep talking about this but actually do something. Once I get back from hols i'm going to start helping out at my local club and help train the kids. Has anyone and advise or courses that would be helpfull, Cheers.