Installing Sat dish and the law

kruczkowski

Does anyone know the law about installing a sat dish in Ireland? I know in the states the landlord cannot deny you access to sat TV if the dish is less that a meter in diameter. http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Does anyone know the law here in Ireland?

Thanks!

jhegarty

That's an American document ... no relevance here....

kruczkowski

I know it's an US law, I was wondering if there is something similar in Ireland.

wil

AFAIR the US law was written after a major management company tried to fight a case preventing people erecting satellite dishes on their properties. They had similar legislation on freedom of services as in the EU but nothing spelt out. The management company effectively lost and so the law pertaining to dishes was written.

We have Freedom of services under EU law. It hasnt been properly tested in court and is not specific enough so that management companies abuse it LR&C.
Search this site for management companies and you should find all the relevent laws listed in some of the threads.

Bottom line is everyone has a right to satellite services.

VH

You can't install a dish to the front of the property and more than one dish requires planning permission.

kruczkowski

Thanks for the info! My dish is mounted on a smile stand I built and is on my balcony. I went out an ordered a special transparent dish from France just so it would not be an ugly black dish.

I'll see what argument the company comes back with, but in my view a dish that is discreetly hidden should not be prohibited, what next pink lawn chairs?

mustang68

My thoughts on it are if your dish is on a stand on the balcony that is NOT attached to the building then you should be in the clear. As the management company cannot start dictating what possessions you place on the balcony. For instance a chair.

spockety

If you want to really cover yourself, inform your Management Company in writing that you are entitled to receive Satellite TV signals under EU freedom of services laws. Tell them that you are open to receiving the signal in any way possible, and that you are happy for them to come up with a suitable location on the building for your dish, and instructions on where the cabling should be run. According to European directives, they can not put any unreasonable measures in place to prevent you from receiving satellite signals (e.g. "yes we will install a dish on our roof for you and run a cable, the cost for this will be €7,000").

Inform them that if you do not hear back from them within a reasonable timeframe (suggest 4 weeks?), that you will assume they have no interest in helping you with regards your satellite signal reception, and you will be making your own arrangements. If you like you can add that you will endeavour to make the dish as unobtrusive as possible etc., in the interests of aesthetics, though you are under no obligation to do this.

wil

kruczkowski wrote: »

Thanks for the info! My dish is mounted on a smile stand I built and is on my balcony. I went out an ordered a special transparent dish from France just so it would not be an ugly black dish.

I'll see what argument the company comes back with, but in my view a dish that is discreetly hidden should not be prohibited, what next pink lawn chairs?

You could start off with a couple of these.

SakisP

At the apartment block of the estate where I live, the South Dublin County Council sent all residents a "warning letter pursuant to the provisions of section 152 of the Planning & Development Act, 2000". There were no recipient names, which proves that blanket-bombing was used - just:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I]italicized text in square brackets = my comments[/I

It has come to our attention of the Planning Authority I]probably after some commercial development recently erected with a view to the apartment block gave them a hint[/I that a number of satellite dishes have been erected at ...I]name of estate[/I. The erection of a satellite dish is unauthorised development. If you have erected a satellite dish type antenna on the property you are required to remove it within 4 weeks of the date of this letter.

Failure to comply with this requirement may result in the initiation of Enforcement Proceedings against you.

[The letter then gives the chance to make submissions or observations in writing within 4 weeks and explains how they, the "good guys", will kick the letter recipients' (="bad guys'") posteriors as per sections 154 and 151 of the same Act, with relevant costs to be charged on the "bad guys", with even the possibility of prison time!]

This goes beyond the usual management company rules issue as previously discussed here and elsewhere - if anything, there are dishes around the estate for over 7 years without the MC lifting a finger. In fact, most apartment owners (around 90%) rent them out and all of us property owners, including myself, an owner-occupier, have seen nothing but nice price increases over the years, so dishes have effectively done nothing negative on the estate.

From my brush with MC involvement as a former MC director, I know the following to be facts (and please feel free to correct any mistakes here):

- The EU (COMMISSION COMMUNICATION ON THE APPLICATION OF THE GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF FREE MOVEMENT OF GOODS AND SERVICES - ARTICLES 28 AND 49 EC – CONCERNING THE USE OF SATELLITE DISHES) allows all EU residents free use of satellite dishes without extraordinary impediments from local authorities.
- South Dublin County Council state the following:

Q: When is a development unauthorised?

A: A development is unauthorised when:-

• Planning Permission is required and has not been obtained
• Planning Permission has been obtained but the development has not been carried out in accordance with the approved plans and/or conditions attached to the Planning Permission
• It does not comply with all of the conditions and limitations to qualify as exempt development

Q: What is exempt development?

A: Exempt development is development for which Planning Permission is not required. It generally relates to developments of a minor nature such as:-

• Works of improvement, maintenance or other alterations that affect only the interior of a structure
• Works that do not materially affect the external appearance of a structure
• Building of an extension, shed, garage, boundary walls, etc. within the curtilage of a house subject to conditions and limitations
• Certain changes of use of commercial premises

Full details of exempted development may be found in Section 4 of the Planning & Development Act 2000, Articles 6 – 10 and Schedule 2 of the Planning & Development Regulations, 2001.

It is important to note that most exemptions do not apply to structures that are included on the Council's Register of Protected Structures or that are situated in an architectural conservation area.

The real question here is this: how does South Dublin County Council decide that the erection of a satellite dish is unauthorised development? Shouldn't they be providing a solution to allow apartment dwellers to have free use of a satellite dish, like they do for regular "house" dwellers? (if you bear to follow the documentation above, apartments could be "houses" as per the Act of 2000 but are specifically excluded from the definition by the Regulations of 2001!)

BTW there is no reference to a specific satellite here - even if most people are referring to Sky, there are also plenty of others who come from the continent and beyond with a need (and the right) to view foreign TV and radio programming of their choosing, be it free-to-air or subscription-based. All such provisions deserve to be treated equally.

So, now that the local authority has entered the field with statutory ammunition, is there any chance to fight back?...

watty

If it's in place 5 years without prior complaint they can't do a thing.

If less than 5 years they don't know the law. They can only forbid erection above the Chimney or past frontage of building, or if it is larger than 90cm or 1m, not sure which.

Someone indeed has "put them up" to this as it's inaccurate. They'd back off quick if any legal letter with expert advice was sent to them.

It's possible cheaply at development time to fit a roof mount dish(es) to pickup FOUR satellites and feed two cables to every apartment. Then a Sky+ / SkyHD or two non-recording satellite receivers work. Non-Sky receivers can select any of the four satellite feeds automatically per channel.

SakisP

watty wrote: »

If it's in place 5 years without prior complaint they can't do a thing.

If less than 5 years they don't know the law. They can only forbid erection above the Chimney or past frontage of building, or if it is larger than 90cm or 1m, not sure which.

Someone indeed has "put them up" to this as it's inaccurate. They'd back off quick if any legal letter with expert advice was sent to them.

It's possible cheaply at development time to fit a roof mount dish(es) to pickup FOUR satellites and feed two cables to every apartment. Then a Sky+ / SkyHD or two non-recording satellite receivers work. Non-Sky receivers can select any of the four satellite feeds automatically per channel.

It would really help drafting such a letter if you could help a bit by pointing out a reference for the 5-year cooling period. Plenty of dishes were put up before 2003, therefore would qualify.

Also, the reasonable restrictions imposed by law (not frontal, not on chimney etc.) are specifically mentioned for "houses", which according to the P & D Regs 2001 do not include apartment blocks - search for:

"house"

including the double quotes, in the Regs.

Does this mean that apartment blocks are never exempted, maybe? That would be really bad...

SakisP

UPDATE

The Management Company at the development where I live have been contacted by South Dublin County Council and have sent a letter of their own to all owners. SDCC wants all dishes removed from apartments by the 1st of October or enforcement action will be taken against those who do not comply.

To tell you the truth, I don't really care any more, as I am moving to a semi-detached house in a few weeks. But I do feel for any apartment dwellers out there who don't have my lucky escape plan.

I will probably go to my local FLAC in case they can provide any advice on how to deal with this situation, then I will print it off and put it inside all apartment postboxes.

However, if there is any solid advice regarding apartment dwellers out there, I would appreciate if anyone posted it here so that this ridiculous action can somehow find some resistance before it goes ahead. Simply demanding dishes off apartment exteriors without providing alternatives (on the part of SDCC in this case) is outrageous. Sky should not be the only option either.

For example, the previous poster mentioned that if a dish is installed for over 5 years unchallenged, there is no case against the owner - on what is that statement based?

watty

What's more if the dishs are there more than 5 years or not on front of building they can't. It's planning law.

Is it *REALLY* SDCC or has management co. manipulated SDCC?

SakisP

watty wrote: »

What's more if the dishs are there more than 5 years or not on front of building they can't. It's planning law.

We are talking about satellite dishes at the back of an apartment block, which face the road and a hotel and retail development opposite the road. According to SDCC, apartment blocks do not "exist" as far as satellite dish placement rules go. But which planning law states the 5-year period you are referring to? That could be a key counter-argument.

watty wrote: »

Is it *REALLY* SDCC or has management co. manipulated SDCC?

It is SDCC - please read my 1st post from 24-08-2008 again. Today was the deadline as mentioned in the SDCC letter to "The Resident" in each case - now the Management Company sent a reminder to all named owners to remove dishes or face the music.

My mind already goes to SOLVIT or the Ombudsman, but it might be easier to shut SDCC up by direct argumentation about how unfairly they treat apartment dwellers.

muffler

watty wrote: »

What's more if the dishs are there more than 5 years or not on front of building they can't. It's planning law.

Its 7 years actually.

The part of the Planning Act in relation to non enforcement by Planning Authorities is contained in Part 8 Section 160.6. It can be viewed on page 169 of the pdf doc here.

Class 4 of schedule 2 of the 2001 regs gives the legal wording in relation to aerials and dishes and can be found on page 157

Q. 12 in planning leaflet no. 5 gives details of aerials and dishes. The leaflet also gives some answers to general everyday home improvement questions.

SakisP

muffler wrote: »

Its 7 years actually.

The part of the Planning Act in relation to non enforcement by Planning Authorities is contained in Part 8 Section 160.6. It can be viewed on page 169 of the pdf doc here.

This means: any dishes erected after September 2001 are doomed.

muffler wrote: »

Class 4 of schedule 2 of the 2001 regs gives the legal wording in relation to aerials and dishes and can be found on page 157

Indeed, but in Part 2.5(1), as I hinted in a previous post:

“house” does not, as regards development of classes 1,
2, 3, 4, 6(b)(ii), 7 or 8 specified in column 1 of Part 1
of Schedule 2, or development to which articles 10(4)
or 10(5) refer, include a building designed for use or
used as 2 or more dwellings or a flat, an apartment or
other dwelling within such a building;

... and this leaves apartment dwellers out in the cold.

muffler wrote: »

Q. 12 in planning leaflet no. 5 gives details of aerials and dishes. The leaflet also gives some answers to general everyday home improvement questions.

But Q. 18 destroys any hope for apartment dwellers:

18. Do the exemptions apply to apartments?
The exemptions listed above at 5, 7,8, 10, 11, 12 and 15
do not apply in the case of flats or apartments and the
provision of car parking is only exempt when to the rear.

The fundamental right to receive satellite signals, as already documented in EU regulations referenced in a previous post, is being systematically refused to apartment dwellers, as you can clearly see from the above. WHY? Even more importantly, how can it be reclaimed?...

muffler

SakisP, I can see where you are coming from with this and I agree with you but I dont think this the place to debate the issue. I posted the links so as others could have a wee insight as to the laws governing dishes but I didnt really want to debate the matter at all.

Maybe the guys over in the legal forum would have an opinion on this or perhaps the politics forum even as the planning regs are signed into law by a politician.

wil

muffler wrote: »

SakisP, I can see where you are coming from with this and I agree with you but I dont think this the place to debate the issue. I posted the links so as others could have a wee insight as to the laws governing dishes but I didnt really want to debate the matter at all.

Maybe the guys over in the legal forum would have an opinion on this or perhaps the politics forum even as the planning regs are signed into law by a politician.

'Tis the Satellite Forum, and this is something very specific to satellite reception, so I'm fairly sure debate here is not inappropriate.
Why not invite some legal heads to this thread where there is genuine interest rather than have it lost in a quagmire of legal illogic or the political mumblings of a apathetic rabble from far off fora.

The EU law is clear but ignored and untested. Cases in the US brought clarity to the detriment of the management companies et al.

That is perhaps what is needed here, someone to take a case against a management company or council etc who choose to ignore that which has already been stated at EU level. And as in other areas, domestic laws can be overturned at EU level if they contravene EU law as would appear to be the case of planning law in relation to dishes and the EU Law on Freedom of services.

SakisP

Legal discussion already under way in:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055383761

Dr Galen

[ MODS : I've also posted this in the Legal discussion but felt it might be fairly relevant to this thread too, one and only time though .... i promise]


Hi all.

Been reading the previous post with great interest this evening. Today I received a flyer through the door from our managing agents acting on behalf of the Management Company for our development, instructing that satellite dishes are prohibited IN or ON the property. All said dishes need to be removed within 28 days or they will be removed by the managing agent and cost will be billed to me.

Now...........I'm always one for a crusade and to be honest the thoughts of NTL fills me with dread as I'm more than happy with Sky.

So as I see it, after reading the European document, I have a right to receive and view satellite transmissions, without any undue or crazy stipulations.

My dish is attached to the wall of my duplex style appartment, so seeing as I don't OWN that wall, well then maybe the Managing Agent is entitled to ask me to take the dish off said wall.

If I create a free standing structure though and attach my dish to the structure, placing this ON the balcony, then that would become a very grey issue, because as per lease, the balcony is for the exclusive usage of me the leaseholder.

On the issue of the dish being removed by the managing agent or contractors of their choice, well then they would a) be infringing of my agreement with them for exclusive usage of the balcony........de facto invasion of private/personal space and b) be interfering with my personal property (dish) without the authority of the law.

As far as I know, even a landlord CANNOT just show up unannounced to a rental property and demand entrance, so a possibly shady management agent certainly can't.

I'm writing a nice but firm letter to the managing agent tonight and enclosing the EU document for their perusal and see what happens. To be honest, if I can come to an accomodation with them that suits both sides I'll be happy. But if this kicks off from their side well then they might just have picked the wrong monkey.

watty

No worries

Nothing grey about a dish on your balcony, unless you spray it that colour

muffler

watty wrote: »

No worries

Nothing grey about a dish on your balcony, unless you spray it that colour

And watty becomes witty

Dr Galen

watty wrote: »

No worries

Nothing grey about a dish on your balcony, unless you spray it that colour

cool :cool:

thing is though the notice stipulated that dishes are not allowed ON or IN the property.....so my satellite dish frame would be IN the development.

We'll see how we go sure, hopefully they don't get too arsey about the whole thing, maybe the offer of free install for the communal SKY will interest them

spockety

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

cool :cool:

thing is though the notice stipulated that dishes are not allowed ON or IN the property.....so my satellite dish frame would be IN the development.

We'll see how we go sure, hopefully they don't get too arsey about the whole thing, maybe the offer of free install for the communal SKY will interest them

Not if they are receiving kick backs or are in fact run by the same people as a small time analogue cable tv operator in your development?