Thieving Plumbers!!

Johnnio13

On Monday my water pump stopped working (Number 3). So I rang the builders who are on site in our development. One of them came over to look fiddled with the hoses and promptly said, nothing I can do and it's out of warranty.
He rang the boss, and told me that I could wait a week for the Pump engineer but it was out of warranty or he could get and fit a new one for me for 750euro.

I asked him how the cost breaks down and he said he was being charged 650 for the pump and his labour was the rest.

Tried another couple of plumbers and they weren't interested.

So today having checked the web, I rang Heat Merchants - the particular pump retails for 600euro, and I rang a crowd in England that deliver to Ireland and total cost is 330euro delivered by DHL which I will have on Friday.
I rang the plumber and told him that I got the same one for 300euro in the UK and he was being robbed and that he should buy from this crowd. His reply - there is no guarantee with anything on the web, so I told him that they are giving me a 2 year warranty and 45 day return period and he told me I was being duped and hung up and I was told its easy to fit myself if I am just replacing one.

Whatever about hardtimes - but charging 150euro to fit a water pump is ridiculous! I suppose no point to this - just ranting about theiving Irish plumbers!
Anyone else out there feel like this building slow-down hasn't improved "building-sector" competition in the slightest in this country.

jetsonx

A small business like a plumber will swallow up a fair amount of cash over the course of a week...believe or not

he has fuel costs
he has tooling costs
he has insurance costs
advertising costs
stationery costs
premises costs
book-keeping costs
medical insurance costs
public liability insurance costs
employees costs
and loads of other costs that you would not even think of....


The list goes on.....

But all you as a "consumer" only see the time he spend on the job and the cost for the part you googled! Who says that part you "googled" is a quality part, who would you ring if that part failed - the so-called guarantee you got from the company in the UK might turn into a whole different kettle of fish IF it did fail.

Johnnio13

True, I see your point jetsonx, but the part from the UK is exactly the same as the one I have and the one the plumber is going to fit.
And as he is on-site working on the development I am sure the builder is getting charged for his time with me also.

mumhaabu

My money is on the plumber buying the part cheaply of said site in UK or similar and then charging "Irish" prices. Buy the part separately and get a different sounder plumber to fit it.

UsedtobePC

I doubt the plumber does a full cost based pricing exercise every time he quotes for a job. It's more a case of "how much money can I get out of it?"

ejmaztec

I'd say that many plumbers would buy their parts from the local building and plumbing merchants, rather than go hi-tech and order from cheaper overseas suppliers. If someone wanted a repair done in a hurry, they wouldn't want to be waiting a week or two for the plumber to get his hands on the required parts from overseas.

Del2005

ejmaztec wrote: »

I'd say that many plumbers would buy their parts from the local building and plumbing merchants, rather than go hi-tech and order from cheaper overseas suppliers. If someone wanted a repair done in a hurry, they wouldn't want to be waiting a week or two for the plumber to get his hands on the required parts from overseas.

I'd say that most if not all good plumbers would do this.

OP I'd say you could have trouble getting someone to fit a pump you bought yourself. You say it's the exact same pump as the one you have, but what's to say that's what you get. Also a reputable trade person will give guarantees with their work and you can call them back to rectify any issues you have. If you pay someone to fit a pump you supplied yourself and something goes wrong you'll have to pay out a lot more.

And if you're as good at sums as your showing below what to say you're getting the price right from the UK?

Johnnio13 wrote: »

On Monday my water pump stopped working (Number 3). So I rang the builders who are on site in our development. One of them came over to look fiddled with the hoses and promptly said, nothing I can do and it's out of warranty.
He rang the boss, and told me that I could wait a week for the Pump engineer but it was out of warranty or he could get and fit a new one for me for 750euro.

I asked him how the cost breaks down and he said he was being charged 650 for the pump and his labour was the rest.

Tried another couple of plumbers and they weren't interested.

So today having checked the web, I rang Heat Merchants - the particular pump retails for 600euro, and I rang a crowd in England that deliver to Ireland and total cost is 330euro delivered by DHL which I will have on Friday.
I rang the plumber and told him that I got the same one for 300euro in the UK and he was being robbed and that he should buy from this crowd. His reply - there is no guarantee with anything on the web, so I told him that they are giving me a 2 year warranty and 45 day return period and he told me I was being duped and hung up and I was told its easy to fit myself if I am just replacing one.

Whatever about hardtimes - but charging 150euro to fit a water pump is ridiculous! I suppose no point to this - just ranting about theiving Irish plumbers!
Anyone else out there feel like this building slow-down hasn't improved "building-sector" competition in the slightest in this country.

MarkR

This thread disappoints. I thought a plumber had actually stolen something from you. Ah well, maybe next time.

gar_29

Johnnio13 wrote: »

Whatever about hardtimes - but charging 150euro to fit a water pump is ridiculous! I suppose no point to this - just ranting about theiving Irish plumbers!
Anyone else out there feel like this building slow-down hasn't improved "building-sector" competition in the slightest in this country.

am i the only person who thinks that 150 to fit a pump is ok? it's going to take, what, an hour? maybe 90 minutes?

plus he's got lots all the tools and equipment he needs (from experience, i never have QUITE the right tool for any DIY job!!)

plus there's VAT, which will have to be at the higher rate as you can't seperate out VAT rates when the %age at the higher rate exceeds a certain amount of the total.

plus he's a professional, with lots of experience. who's to say you won't muck it up and have to buy another one?

plus, and this always bugs me about some of the people who cry "rip-off", he's got a right to make a living. after all his costs for that job, i doubt he's retiring to the bahamas. if you don't like his price, fine, go elsewhere, but why begrudge the man a wage? or are plumbers some type of underclass who need to be kept in penury?

before you start throwing around accusations, why not tell us all what you do for a living, plus how much you earn, and i'll tell you it's far too much.

axer

OP you are not paying for his time you are paying for what he knows. The plumber called to you once and checked the problem for which I'll take it he did not receive any money. How many of these type of call outs do they do regularly? i.e. where they find the problem first and are not guarenteed to make money out of unless they are hired to fix it. There are all the costs as mentioned above.

Johnnio13

Hi Axer,

I had factored that in, but he had said on the phone that the issue could be their problem and waived any fee to be sure.

My thought at the time was that he knew we had no water pressure and couldn't wait to get it sorted and he was trying to milk the situation.

I order the pump online on the Wednesday afternoon, it arrived at 3pm on Friday of the same week. I brought it home, followed the manual and installed it in 14mins. I am sure having installed 100's of these pumps he could have done it quicker and that is what I was basing my initial post on.

Gar_29, I realise he has to make a living and that he has trained hard to get where he is at, but I feel he was taking advantage knowing I was without water. Hence why I looked for the pump seperately.

What I do is irrelevant to this post

whippet

Johnnio13 wrote: »

Hi Axer,

I had factored that in, but he had said on the phone that the issue could be their problem and waived any fee to be sure.

My thought at the time was that he knew we had no water pressure and couldn't wait to get it sorted and he was trying to milk the situation.

I order the pump online on the Wednesday afternoon, it arrived at 3pm on Friday of the same week. I brought it home, followed the manual and installed it in 14mins. I am sure having installed 100's of these pumps he could have done it quicker and that is what I was basing my initial post on.

Gar_29, I realise he has to make a living and that he has trained hard to get where he is at, but I feel he was taking advantage knowing I was without water. Hence why I looked for the pump seperately.

What I do is irrelevant to this post

If he was to install the pump for you he would have had to make two trips to your house, one to diagnose the problem and one to fix it.

Like the age old story of the man who got a small dent in the wing of his car, goes to the panel beater and asks for a quote. The panel beater has a look, it's handy enough, €150. The man says, fine and the panel beater takes out his hammer and knocks the dent back out with one tap and hands over the invoice.

The man gasps, '150 quid for one belt of a hammer' .. 'no' says the panel beater '10 quid for the belt of the hammer, 140 quid for knowing where to hit it'

axer

whippet wrote: »

If he was to install the pump for you he would have had to make two trips to your house, one to diagnose the problem and one to fix it.

Like the age old story of the man who got a small dent in the wing of his car, goes to the panel beater and asks for a quote. The panel beater has a look, it's handy enough, €150. The man says, fine and the panel beater takes out his hammer and knocks the dent back out with one tap and hands over the invoice.

The man gasps, '150 quid for one belt of a hammer' .. 'no' says the panel beater '10 quid for the belt of the hammer, 140 quid for knowing where to hit it'

The skill and experience really comes into play when things go wrong. Luckily for the OP everything went perfectly.

Biro

gar_29 wrote: »

am i the only person who thinks that 150 to fit a pump is ok? it's going to take, what, an hour? maybe 90 minutes?

plus he's got lots all the tools and equipment he needs (from experience, i never have QUITE the right tool for any DIY job!!)

plus there's VAT, which will have to be at the higher rate as you can't seperate out VAT rates when the %age at the higher rate exceeds a certain amount of the total.

plus he's a professional, with lots of experience. who's to say you won't muck it up and have to buy another one?

plus, and this always bugs me about some of the people who cry "rip-off", he's got a right to make a living. after all his costs for that job, i doubt he's retiring to the bahamas. if you don't like his price, fine, go elsewhere, but why begrudge the man a wage? or are plumbers some type of underclass who need to be kept in penury?

before you start throwing around accusations, why not tell us all what you do for a living, plus how much you earn, and i'll tell you it's far too much.

It'll probably only take 20 minutes, as it's replacing one that's already there. And I wish everyone would apply the "he's a professional, he deserves his money" attitude across the board instead of just reserving it for people in the building trade. I'm in IT, I spend 90 minutes on someone's PC and I get "Thanks for that!". Where can I cash that for €150?

Morlar

Biro wrote: »

It'll probably only take 20 minutes, as it's replacing one that's already there. And I wish everyone would apply the "he's a professional, he deserves his money" attitude across the board instead of just reserving it for people in the building trade. I'm in IT, I spend 90 minutes on someone's PC and I get "Thanks for that!". Where can I cash that for €150?

You need to start charging for. . .
'
he has fuel costs
he has tooling costs
he has insurance costs
advertising costs
stationery costs
premises costs
book-keeping costs
medical insurance costs
public liability insurance costs
employees costs
and loads of other costs that you would not even think of....' etc

unklerosco

Biro wrote: »

I'm in IT, I spend 90 minutes on someone's PC and I get "Thanks for that!". Where can I cash that for €150?

Ah the joys of IT... I got called out to 3 places last week.. 1 was for a broken fax machine.. It wasn't plugged into the line. A broken laptop... Turned it off n on again.. And a broken monitor... I plugged it in.

Twas a hard day :p Call outs are free if its our hardware at fault, €100 if ur a tit...


As for the plumber story... Id say ur fairly lucky to be able to sort the problem urself. My GF's bro and bro in law are plumbers and work bloody hard for their money. The good times are long over, her bro does 10-12hrs a day, 5 days a week and works most saturdays... And all the plumbers I know buy all their gear from Heaton Buckleys so whatever price u get quoted for parts is realative to the price they sell it for...

ejmaztec

Biro wrote: »

It'll probably only take 20 minutes, as it's replacing one that's already there. And I wish everyone would apply the "he's a professional, he deserves his money" attitude across the board instead of just reserving it for people in the building trade. I'm in IT, I spend 90 minutes on someone's PC and I get "Thanks for that!". Where can I cash that for €150?

I agree with Morlar - you should be charging for everything. In my line of work, I come across a multitude of IT invoices. I haven't seen one where a "visit" costs less than €200, even for the most minor of issues. Obviously, if you're not charging the customers enough in the first place, it's difficult to shove the prices up to a level more in keeping with your true worth.

parsi

What type water pump was it ?

We had our hotwater pump replaced earlier in the year for 120 all-in which I felt was respectable.

Guy:Incognito

Biro wrote: »

It'll probably only take 20 minutes, as it's replacing one that's already there. And I wish everyone would apply the "he's a professional, he deserves his money" attitude across the board instead of just reserving it for people in the building trade. I'm in IT, I spend 90 minutes on someone's PC and I get "Thanks for that!". Where can I cash that for €150?

If your working for yourself and doing each on a job by job basis then you would be charging like that (if your company sent you out somewhere to fix something I bet they would charge more than €150, doesnt mean you'll see any of it).

I'm a Plumber adn I work for my Uncles company. If I get a call to go out and do I job, I dont see aything more than my normal wages for that. If I orgnise a job myself in my own time as a nixer, thats my money. Theres a big difference. If a company is doing a job they are getting the €150 , the individual plumber isnt.(same in any industry)

Cabaal

Its your job as a consumer to shop around, if the plumber wants to charge 1000e euro for install he can, nobody is forcing you to go with him.

Heinrich

For what it's worth; plumber friend came to do some work. Turned off the mains and pump, did the job and when he turned on the water and pump it didn't work. He recommended and electronicien who called by, opened up a panel in the pump and changed a small board. Cost 80 for the call out and 40 for the board!

Next door neighbour's pump went and he called the electro chap, having discussed the matter with his neighbour.

The rip-off is due to a large extent to incompetence and lack of knowledge!

Now if the OP still has the old pump he could get it checked...;)

ejmaztec

Heinrich wrote: »

For what it's worth; plumber friend came to do some work. Turned off the mains and pump, did the job and when he turned on the water and pump it didn't work. He recommended and electronicien who called by, opened up a panel in the pump and changed a small board. Cost 80 for the call out and 40 for the board!

Next door neighbour's pump went and he called the electro chap, having discussed the matter with his neighbour.

The rip-off is due to a large extent to incompetence and lack of knowledge!

Now if the OP still has the old pump he could get it checked...;)

That of course is another problem. I've encountered many people in the building and allied trades in Ireland over the years, and a hell of a lot of them had no qualifications to the jobs that they were being paid for.

The house that I'm living in was shoddily built in the late 1970s. The place had to be re-wired twenty years ago, because several parts of the circuit didn't work. The central-heating was a shambles and obviously installed by someone who didn't have a clue. I don't think that the calculation of BTUs, or any other calculations got used. They obviously bought a few random radiators from a local supplier and strapped them to various walls. Needless to say, this "building" was cheap, so liking a challenge, we bought it.

I'd like to think that there aren't any of these cowboys left anymore, but a few of them must still be kicking around - giving their fully-qualified colleagues a bad name.

Del2005

parsi wrote: »

What type water pump was it ?

We had our hotwater pump replaced earlier in the year for 120 all-in which I felt was respectable.

The OP was getting their pressurised system pump replaced. Mine went and it was nearly €700 trade.

OP well done on getting the pump installed and working, as with most jobs it's fairly easy when you know what to do. BTW your house is now no longer insured as you've done uncertified electrical wiring!

But the plumber was coming in blind and found out your problem for you, which you didn't have a clue about as you had to call him in.

devereux08

I wouldnt have charged quite as much but not far off!most tradesmen are honest guys.

nice1franko

My pump is fukced now they quoted 600 for a new pump and 100 for the install. I've no probs with that and it seems very reasonable to me BUT if I can get the pump for half the price and then get one of my mates who are sparks to install it (fair few sparks sitting on their hands these days) I'd be helping a mate out too.

What was that site op?

Tester46

jetsonx wrote: »

But all you as a "consumer" only see the time he spend on the job and the cost for the part you googled! Who says that part you "googled" is a quality part, who would you ring if that part failed - the so-called guarantee you got from the company in the UK might turn into a whole different kettle of fish IF it did fail.

And what guarantee do you get from your plumber? Are you seriously suggestung he will take full responsibility if it blows again in 22 months? Not bloody likely...

Sleipnir

Del2005 wrote: »

BTW your house is now no longer insured as you've done uncertified electrical wiring!

Ah, that's not true at all. What, if you hang a light your insurance is null and void.

Capt'n Midnight

Del2005 wrote:

BTW your house is now no longer insured as you've done uncertified electrical wiring!

Every hardware shop in the country and many supermarkets sell wire in electrical fittings. I've never seen an ad for an Electrician to specificly certify wiring.

Is there a niche in the market here for un-employed electricians especially those who through no fault of their own can't work anymore because of disibilty ?

311

Yeah us plumbers are thieves.

We don't give any money to the revenue or pay our monthly accounts ,paye .
We get up early in the morning to listen to people whinge about things for our own benefit.
We get up into peoples attics ,so we can see what their fake christmas tree look like in july.

Sponge Bob

311 wrote: »

We get up into peoples attics ,so we can see what their fake christmas tree look like in july.

Instead of doing some work , sounds typical all right

311

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Instead of doing some work , sounds typical all right

ah come on ,you should know by now that the world doesn't revolve around you office jockies

matt925

311 wrote: »

Yeah us plumbers are thieves.

We don't give any money to the revenue or pay our monthly accounts ,paye .
We get up early in the morning to listen to people whinge about things for our own benefit.
We get up into peoples attics ,so we can see what their fake christmas tree look like in july.

Some of us even enjoy unblocking ****e filled toilets
and listenin to ya lie about "not" turning any of the valves in the hot press :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Just remember you can live without i.t guys and even electricity but ya cant live without water or a place to take a ****! so give us a break and some well deserved respect!!!!!!!!! and we get paid feck all for years on apprentice rates so we deserve our rates when we qualify!

Sponge Bob

matt925 wrote: »

give us a break and some well deserved respect!!!!!!!!! and we get paid feck all for years on apprentice rates so we deserve our rates when we qualify!

Now I remember why I bought 2 monkey wrenches , a can of Boss Red and a roll of PTFE tape last year ....they cost a grand total of 10% of a plumbers standard call out fee and there will be no excuses and bollox for being late all the time either .

A good piece of business that

311

Sponge bob ,you cannot tar plumbers with the same brush.
If I was to add up everything that I carry with me all the time ,it would come close to about €40k.
Thats breaking down drills ,machinery ,tools ,fittings etc.
Thats just so when someone like yourself calls me ,you get your moneys worth for the hour call out.

matt925

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Now I remember why I bought 2 monkey wrenches , a can of Boss Red and a roll of PTFE tape last year ....they cost a grand total of 10% of a plumbers standard call out fee and there will be no excuses and bollox for being late all the time either .

A good piece of business that

so you went out and bought a set of monkey wrenches too bad you will never learn how to use them , so put your fisher price tools away and leave the plumbing to the qualified tradesmen . .

nogoodnamesleft

ejmaztec wrote: »

That of course is another problem. I've encountered many people in the building and allied trades in Ireland over the years, and a hell of a lot of them had no qualifications to the jobs that they were being paid for.

The house that I'm living in was shoddily built in the late 1970s. The place had to be re-wired twenty years ago, because several parts of the circuit didn't work. The central-heating was a shambles and obviously installed by someone who didn't have a clue. I don't think that the calculation of BTUs, or any other calculations got used. They obviously bought a few random radiators from a local supplier and strapped them to various walls. Needless to say, this "building" was cheap, so liking a challenge, we bought it.

I'd like to think that there aren't any of these cowboys left anymore, but a few of them must still be kicking around - giving their fully-qualified colleagues a bad name.

There a plenty of cowboys around have no fear especially during the building boom. My father is a retired electrician spent over 35years at it. Still gets calls from local people to fix some other peoples work among the common things he has to fix is:

trace electrical cables from UFH thermostats as they are turning on the incorrect zones.

Pulling up hardwood floors to get to electrical underfloor heating element as the individual who laid the floor used conceled nails for the T&G floor board and took no notice of the heating element underneath thus driving nails through it

The best one I have heard is the owner of the company I work for has solar and geo thermal heating. The professional company that installed the solar wired the solar controller incorrectly. It basically worked inreverse taking the heat out of the house and on to the roof!

Sponge Bob

311 wrote: »

Sponge bob ,you cannot tar plumbers with the same brush.

Painting analogy , mmmm.

Don't you worry 311 , I would PM you if I were stuck unlike Matt925 who seemingly believes that his future lies in insulting his customer base .

I had to add another thermostat zone and solenoid to my heating this year because the bollox who did it originally have one thermostat zone for the entire house and yes I did get the professional in to integrate and test them in the boiler house

311

Coolaboola ,I can understand some people have trouble with plumbers. Most of the big problems I see is where a builder has his own "plumber" and all sorts of carry on goes on.
Most new builds that are organised by the owner/occupier are done much better ,because there are actual tradesmen doing the work as appose to labourers.

I don't think all builders are like this ,but the ones that do this carry on are the ones who give everyone a bad name.

Sponge Bob

Same as any other job 311, if you have a good rep you get work and if you are crap nobody wants to know you save at the height of a bubble .

Around here I know the plumbers I would call and those I would never call , I even have their numbers stored just in case.

Then again i know how to turn everything off from the road in and drain it first if required myself

Johnnio13

nice1franko wrote: »

My pump is fukced now they quoted 600 for a new pump and 100 for the install. I've no probs with that and it seems very reasonable to me BUT if I can get the pump for half the price and then get one of my mates who are sparks to install it (fair few sparks sitting on their hands these days) I'd be helping a mate out too.

What was that site op?

Alright Nice1/all update to my saga. I fitted the pump myself following the instructions in the manual. Almost a year on and its still banging away which is good.
It was a Salamandar pump and it was some parts-supplier in Finglas that were charging the 630euro for it.
Was chatting to the plumber since and he said that the original batch that were put into the apartments weren't the best, so I brought the old pump back to the shop in Finglas but never heard anything. Bill is looking at it since November last year. But at this stage not to pushed as long as the one I have keeps working.

I wasn't taking away from what the plumber has to earn, I was only stressing that 150 for a 20 min job was excessive. And that was a 20min job for me. So I would presume for a qualified individual it would be 10mins? Just a thought. Thanks folks.

http://www.salamanderpumps.co.uk/

Cabaal

Johnnio13, feels great when you do a joke yourself knowing that you haven't been ripped off

I've done a few electrical and plumbing jobs over the years, saved myself and my parents 100's of euros.