Does winning the provincial title help to win the All-Ireland?

Tazdedub

Out of the 4 teams in the All-Ireland football semi finals 3 of the teams have come through the back door, does this signify that winning provincial championship is more a hinderance than an advantage? It seems that teams that come through the back door, seem to be able to build up a head of steam and iron out any problems, where as the team that wins the provincial championship seems to have to sit around waiting and loose their momentum?

In addition to this would it not make sense to play the provincial championships in the say may or June and then have a open draw with all 32 counties in the hat for the all ireland. Surely this would be a fairer way of doing things and would mean that the weaker still get the chance of two games? I think this would be more exciting than the current championship draw, imagine all 32 counties in the hat and your county could be drawn against anyone, I think this would create more interest in the championship.

Guisseppeth

http://www.hoganstand.com/Tyrone/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=99616

Tazdedub

Got to agree with Harte that provincial winners do get a raw deal. I can see teams now not being interested in winning the provinical titles if it will hamper them winning the All Ireland.

yayamark

Ive been saying this for years that the prov champs are at a disadvantage.

Last year Kerry had to wait 7 weeks (approx) from the time of winning Munster to playing 1/4 final and were lucky to win against Monaghan.

Sure didnt P O Shea tell Kerry at half time in this years Munster Final to take it handy and let the cork Boyos win for a change .

Its all about tictacs you know!

Yavvy

I also agree with harte...Wouldnt mind at all if he wanted to be Dublins manager next year.

Tristram

It can be tough alright. Some tinkering might not go amiss.

Golferx

Harte's idea is all well and good, but then you will have two semifinalists who will not have a second chance, if beaten.


The current system is OK, apart from the time gap between provincial final and Quarter final.

QF should be played three weeks after provincial final. If the losing provincial finalists have to play two or three games in between, then let that be their tough luck, it's a hazard of losing a provincial final.

Nalced_irl

Golferx wrote: »

Harte's idea is all well and good, but then you will have two semifinalists who will not have a second chance, if beaten.


The current system is OK, apart from the time gap between provincial final and Quarter final.

QF should be played three weeks after provincial final. If the losing provincial finalists have to play two or three games in between, then let that be their tough luck, it's a hazard of losing a provincial final.

Thats true alright His idea seems good in principle altho i would agree that simply moving the QF closer to the provincial finals would suit better. On the day of the provincial finals, the 4 teams to play the losers should be already decided and maybe 10 days later the last qualifier rounds should be played, then 10/11 days later the QF. Also all matches should be in the Nou Camp, nicer weather and less ticket scrambles

K-9

At this stage an Open Draw would be the fairest.

Never going to happen but it would go a long away to negate the differences in the provinces, number of games, standard of opposition etc.

Flukey

This old chestnut about the long gap between matches has more made of it than there is to it. After not playing for a while, if a team wins it is because they were fresh and if they lose it is because they lacked match practice. It is always spun to build an excuse beforehand and to suit the result afterwards. It is the same for teams having played a load of matches. If they win it is because they have had loads of competitive matches and if they lose it is because they were drained. In reality we've seen teams from both situations win and lose, so you can't say what is the truth either way.

They are all Gaelic Footballers or Hurlers and they and their management know how to deal with the different scenarios that they find themselves in, or at least they should do. They should be ready on a day of a match, no matter how things were prior to that. Whether they have played a lot or not for a long time, they should be able to adapt to get themselves ready for the next game. When that match comes, it is how they perform on the day that matters most in determining the result.

Flukey

As to separating out the All-Ireland and provincial championships, in a way that already is happening, especially since the introduction of the qualifiers. The provincial championships are still an integral part of the All-Ireland Championships. It is hard to have one without the other. Look how much it means to a team to win a provincial title, especially ones that rarely do so. Even for the big powers that win them regularly, it still means something to them. There are always new players coming through, so while their county may have often won a provincial title, they themselves may only be winning a medal for the first time.

We already have the McKenna, McGrath and O'Byrne Cups, along with the Connacht League, which are like provincial championships, but teams always have their eyes on the corresponding competitions in the summer. As to an open draw, it has merits but there still would be something missing, even if it was preceded by a provincial championship. In 1984 they had the Centenary Cup, an open draw competition. It was won by Meath, beating Monaghan in the final. Come September though, both teams had long since made their exit from the championships and we had a Kerry v Dublin final, with Kerry winning it.

Whatever way you re-jig the championship, only one winner will emerge each September. The only way a weaker county is going to do well is if they become a stronger county. Some of them have done that down through the years. Even in recent years, counties have won their first provincial titles, or their first in a long time, and we've had 4 new All-Ireland Champions in Football since 1992. There are also counties around now who would have been regarded as stronger counties not so long ago, but have slipped back. The All-Ireland winners will always come from one of the stronger counties of the day, but who the stronger and weaker counties are at any time changes. The biggest responsibility for performing well is with the counties themselves, not the system.

If we take just one county as an example. We'd all agree that Westmeath have a good team at present and give them due respect. Remember though, that they only won their first ever Leinster Senior Football title in 2004. You wouldn't have to go back much further than that to find a time when they very idea of them being Leinster Champions would have been ridiculous. During the 1990s both themselves and Laois built some good minor teams and brought them to success. It was on that foundation that both counties won senior Leinster titles in 2003 and 2004, but both were "weaker counties" not so long ago. Like I said, weaker counties can win things, when they make themselves into stronger counties.

keane2097

Flukey wrote: »

As to separating out the All-Ireland and provincial championships, in a way that already is happening, especially since the introduction of the qualifiers. The provincial championships are still an integral part of the All-Ireland Championships. It is hard to have one without the other. Look how much it means to a team to win a provincial title, especially ones that rarely do so. Even for the big powers that win them regularly, it still means something to them.

Nah it means nothing. In Kerry anyway most football people I know don't give a bollocks about the Munster Championship.

The only provincial title that means anything is Ulster - and that doesn't mean much.

The people who are going to tell you provincial titles mean something are going to mainly be Dublin and Armagh supporters.

Trampas

in the pub after the game tyrone lads were on about harte maybe the next person in charge of dublin.

it's an interesting comment he makes

K-9

Flukey wrote: »

It is hard to have one without the other. Look how much it means to a team to win a provincial title, especially ones that rarely do so. Even for the big powers that win them regularly, it still means something to them. There are always new players coming through, so while their county may have often won a provincial title, they themselves may only be winning a medal for the first time.

Yes, no argument there, probably the only reason for keeping them.

flukey wrote:

We already have the McKenna, McGrath and O'Byrne Cups, along with the Connacht League, which are like provincial championships, but teams always have their eyes on the corresponding competitions in the summer.

Don't know why you are mentioning them?

flukey wrote:

As to an open draw, it has merits but there still would be something missing, even if it was preceded by a provincial championship. In 1984 they had the Centenary Cup, an open draw competition. It was won by Meath, beating Monaghan in the final. Come September though, both teams had long since made their exit from the championships and we had a Kerry v Dublin final, with Kerry winning it.

Again, why are you mentioning it? It was a filler between the League and Championship. Remember it well, my first time seeing Donegal in Ballybofey, aged 9. 9/10,000 in April to see Donegal V. Kerry and they where there to see Kerry!

IIRC, it was ran again in 85 then disbanded, anybody recall the winners for serious brownie points? I don't know!

Anyway, that's a completely different comparison. This is not a Ulster, Leinster etc. piss contest, it's Ulster have 9 counties, Leinster 11, Munster 6, Connaught 7 with varying strengths. Time to equal it all out and stop moaning about how hard Ulster is or soft Munster is, we don't get enough games or are too long laid up, we have to win 4 games or we play 4 weeks in a row etc. etc.

Yes, provincials are important, Donegal would love one, we've gotten to AI S/F and Q/F's without them, so have Derry, Fermanagh and Monaghan.

What about Kildare and Wexford this year. Sligo and Westmeath have had good runs too.

flukey wrote:

Whatever way you re-jig the championship, only one winner will emerge each September. The only way a weaker county is going to do well is if they become a stronger county. Some of them have done that down through the years. Even in recent years, counties have won their first provincial titles, or their first in a long time, and we've had 4 new All-Ireland Champions in Football since 1992.

Most of those weaker counties actually owe the provincial breakthroughs to the qualifiers, Sligo and Westmeath being the perfect examples. Fermanagh nearly this year.

flukey wrote:

If we take just one county as an example. We'd all agree that Westmeath have a good team at present and give them due respect. Remember though, that they only won their first ever Leinster Senior Football title in 2004. You wouldn't have to go back much further than that to find a time when they very idea of them being Leinster Champions would have been ridiculous. During the 1990s both themselves and Laois built some good minor teams and brought them to success. It was on that foundation that both counties won senior Leinster titles in 2003 and 2004, but both were "weaker counties" not so long ago. Like I said, weaker counties can win things, when they make themselves into stronger counties.

Yes, but they built confidence through qualifier runs same as Sligo and Fermanagh.

A Proper Open Draw and provincials can be done. 2/3 of Donegal, Derry and Monaghan had no chance of a last 16 place and Kerry and Cork were more or less guarented one, full respect to Limerick.

A fairer Qualifier system could be worked out.

Imposter

I'd still like to see a seperate provincial tournament - ran from mid-March to mid-May and then a champions league type championship. Send a team over to play New york and then the winners enter an 8 groups of 4 with the top 2 coming out. Then knock-out. Ok it may be unfair on New York but seeing as they can't/won't travel there's not much more that can be done with them.

Every team get at least 3 games and it could also be seeded based on the previous year. People might argue that this would help the strong counties but it gives the weaker counties games which is basically what the qualifiers do. If the groups were played off by end of June then theres loads of time for the last 16 - final before september. Basically a match every 2 weeks from mid May.

I'd also like to see something similar in hurling somehow incorporating teams like Laois/Dublin/Westmeath/Carlow/Antrim and Offaly

flyingwing

Couldn't agree with Imposter more.

Here's my post from another forum discussing the same problem -
I've proposed this a few times myself.
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Its the best system for football in many ways - more games, more profitable, more excitement, more heayvweight match-ups ie Might get the odd "group of death" scenario.
Its fairer - every team must face seven other sides in order to win Sam - no more, no less.
Last two in each group go into losers competition. Rewards for winning said competition could be a frist place seeding for the following years championship.This gives a real incentive to do well in the losers competition.

Would be great for the GAA.

I also believe the Provincial championships could continue in place of the league. We'd just have to draw them out longer via a round robin system akin to american football. Late winter/early spring provincial championships would draw bigger crowds and interest than the league in my opinion. Thats a discussion for another day however.

In short - yes, I agree.

Heres an example - Seeding based on this years championship and where teams finished;

1st - Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Tyrone, Kildare, Wexford, Galway, Armagh
2nd - Monaghan, Fermanagh, Down, Mayo, Limerick, Westmeath, Laois, Donegal
3rd - Roscommon, Cavan, Meath, Longford, Derry, Louth, Offaly, Tipperary
4th - Wickow, Sligo, Leitrem, Clare, Waterford, Antrim, Carlow, Kilkenny/London/New York

Granted the lower tier is a bit week, but look at the possible groups -

Group 1 - Kildare, Fermanagh, Cavan, Wicklow

Group 2 - Kerry, Monaghan, Meath, Antrim

Group 3 - Dublin, Mayo, Derry, Waterford

Group 4 - Wexford, Laois, Tipperary, Sligo

Group 5 - Cork, Donegal, Roscommon, Clare

Group 6 - Tyrone, Down, Longford, Leitrem

Group 7 - Galway, Westmeath, Louth, Carlow

Group 8 - Armagh, Limerick, Offaly, Kilkenny/London/New York

A lot of them would be hard to call. EVERY game would count, just think of how nerve-wrecking the world cup can be. I also think the incentive of a 1st place seeding would make the losers competition seen as a worthwhile endeavor.

Nalced_irl

Imposter wrote: »

I'd still like to see a seperate provincial tournament - ran from mid-March to mid-May and then a champions league type championship. Send a team over to play New york and then the winners enter an 8 groups of 4 with the top 2 coming out. Then knock-out. Ok it may be unfair on New York but seeing as they can't/won't travel there's not much more that can be done with them.

Every team get at least 3 games and it could also be seeded based on the previous year. People might argue that this would help the strong counties but it gives the weaker counties games which is basically what the qualifiers do. If the groups were played off by end of June then theres loads of time for the last 16 - final before september. Basically a match every 2 weeks from mid May.

I'd also like to see something similar in hurling somehow incorporating teams like Laois/Dublin/Westmeath/Carlow/Antrim and Offaly

I put some thought into that lately and it could certainly work. The only thing i see wrong is that the GAA would not get the same money as the group games would attract alot less of a crowd, especially from Dublin so i dont think they would go with it. It would certainly be something they should consider tho as it could spice up the championship alot. I wouldnt like it eventually going like AFL tho where its matches galore simply to bring in money and most games towards the latter stages dont matter anymore as the qualifiers are already decided.

flyingwing

Heres a proposal;

Scrap the O'byrne et al cups.

Bring the league forward so that its closer(very close) to the championship.

Have two tiers of championship football;

Teams from division 1 and 2 compete for Sam.
Teams from division 3 and 4 compete for Tommy Murphy.

3 teams get relegation from division 2 and 3 get promoted from division 3, thus ensuring a nice change in line-up for Sam every year.

This will increase interest in the league, especially if its played more or less as a prequel to the championship.

Teams that get promoted from 3 play for Sam that year, they don't have to wait until the following season when they are actually into division 2. that way winning division 3 or getting promoted will be a huge event - you get to enter Sam Maguire.

4 groups of 4 teams compete for Sam - 2 teams are drawn from division 1 and 2 teams are drawn from division 2 for each group. Basing such off this years league look at the potential draw for this champions league style format;

Group 1
Kerry
Dublin
Cork
Meath

group 2
Galway
Mayo
Armagh
kildare

group 3
tyrone
derry
wexford
monaghan

group 4
westmeath
donegal
fermanagh
laois.

Don't tell me those matches wouldn't draw crowds. Dublin would be packed to the rafters for every last one. So would many other provincial grounds. This way every team plays 6 teams on the way to Sam and there are more exciting matches to be looked forward to.

Dublin V Meath could kick start the championship as opposed to wicklow v kildare.

As for provincials, these could be ran simultaneously to the All-Ireland as stand-alone competitions. Every county would be eligible for their provincial championship and they'd take on a value akin to the FA cup/charity shield.

That way the provincials would get back some of their glamour that the backdoor has taken from them as well as give smaller counties a better chance to "nick" them from the bigger counties who are a bit more focused on Sam.

It'd be a much exciting season than what we have currently. As it is the GAA intercounty season drags on way too long and it only really becomes exciting around august/september. It took the quarter-finals this year for any real entertainment to occur.

With competitive All-Ireland groups such as the aforementioned, quick and meaningful leagues that determine if you can fight for sam or not, and standalone provincial championships we'd have a much shorter, but much more exciting and profitable football season.

ArmaniJeanss

Couple of random questions.

FlyingWind. What happens if the winners of the Championship are a Division 2 team who get relegated from Div2 the follwing spring. Under your system the champions thus wouldn't get to defend Sam, which I think would be an unacceptable situation for the GAA. (I accept that technically they have been able to defend the trophy)

These mini-league leading to knockouts still have the same problem in that a group defeat is not necessarily fatal whereas a knockout defeat is.
So you can still have the situation like this year where Dublins first defeat is 'the end' whereas 3 of the 4 semifinalists have suffered as many defeats. So Galway win their group with 3/3 and Derry come 2nd in their group with 1/3 (and a good points difference), but Derry beat Galway in the first knockout game. This is similar to the perceived unfairness of the current system.

Also these mini leagues work very well in American Football as there is huge reward for being the best group winner - homefield advantage all the way upto and including the semi-final. So if say Donegal have qualified for the knockouts after their first 2 group games do they have this sort of incentive to go on and win their final game by as big as margin as possible?

mrgaa1

There are some great ideas in here - and unless you county board delegates attending congress and voting them in they won't happen unfortunately.
Lets take a look at the Ulster Championship - arguably the toughest one to win. Armagh have won seven out of the last ten - in years gone by prior to the back door that would have meant Armagh may have contested more All-Ireland finals and I suppose the truth be told they may have won 3 or 4 in row. But they didn't.
I think Mickey Hartes idea is a very good one and perhaps that would be the easiest to implement to see if the current setup works, or not, before the GAA will have to bite the bullet and do a wholesale change.
This years attendances have been very poor - I think Ulsters was the best attended and whenever Dublin plays. You can blame TV, the weather or the very high cost of attending games - especially for families - but attendances are dismal this year. So perhaps a change will help.
The dynamics of football have changed again - for the better - so the GAA need to look longterm and see where its all going. I won't be holding my breath for any changes soon though

padraig_f

My preference would be something loosely based on the NBA structure where you have preliminary leagues based on location, which qualify you for a knockout championship.

The provincial matches are played in a league format, where every team plays each other once. At the end of the provincial league, the top 2 teams play each other in a provincial final. Winner goes through to the all-ireland semi-final. To cater for size, Leinster and Ulster are split into Leinster A/Leinster B. Winners of the Leinster A league play the winners of Leinster B in the Leinster final (and the same with Ulster).

I think this would restore the prestige of the provincial finals which has been lost with the backdoor system, and give weaker teams a chance to develop with more than one game. Also while the backdoor system throws up some novelty ties, I think most people would rather watch local derbies. A lot of those novelty ties lack history and rivalry and can seem a bit tame as a result. And the history will never be built up because the current draw is so random.

Flukey

Seanies32 wrote: »

Y
Most of those weaker counties actually owe the provincial breakthroughs to the qualifiers, Sligo and Westmeath being the perfect examples. Fermanagh nearly this year.

As I said Westmeath and Laois owe their Leinster titles to what they did in the 1990s. If you look at the 1990s themselves, Clare in 1992 and Leitrim in 1994 won their respective provincial titles long before the qualifiers. Offaly in 1997 and Kildare in 1998 won after long gaps out of the limelight, again before the qualifiers. There are lots of other examples.

While the qualifiers may have helped a little, most breakthrough counties owe their successes to hard work, good underage structures, good coaching and management, amongst other things. The most obvious modern example of building a team from scratch is Tyrone. Mickey Harte brought a group of players up through the ranks, winning things at different grades with them, culminating in their 2003 senior title. Wexford and Limerick at present have teams that are close to the top table, and I wouldn't put that down to the qualifiers. Not so much in the case of Wexford, but Limerick and Tyrone certainly had and have good young players coming through who have medals of some sort in their pockets.

The qualifiers may have given a few teams a few extra matches, but they already had the players and other factors in place to exploit it. The qualifiers won't do much for a team if they haven't got those things. They just gave teams that were good an extra chance having been beaten by a team that were better than them. Long before the qualifiers, lots of very good teams were knocked out and so didn't really have a chance to prove how good they were. Just because they were knocked out in their first championship game, it didn't mean they weren't great teams. The qualifiers have shown that some were, but it didn't make them into great teams.

K-9

Flukey wrote: »

As I said Westmeath and Laois owe their Leinster titles to what they did in the 1990s. If you look at the 1990s themselves, Clare in 1992 and Leitrim in 1994 won their respective provincial titles long before the qualifiers. Offaly in 1997 and Kildare in 1998 won after long gaps out of the limelight, again before the qualifiers. There are lots of other examples.

While the qualifiers may have helped a little, most breakthrough counties owe their successes to hard work, good underage structures, good coaching and management, amongst other things. The most obvious modern example of building a team from scratch is Tyrone. Mickey Harte brought a group of players up through the ranks, winning things at different grades with them, culminating in their 2003 senior title. Wexford and Limerick at present have teams that are close to the top table, and I wouldn't put that down to the qualifiers. Not so much in the case of Wexford, but Limerick and Tyrone certainly had and have good young players coming through who have medals of some sort in their pockets.

The qualifiers may have given a few teams a few extra matches, but they already had the players and other factors in place to exploit it. The qualifiers won't do much for a team if they haven't got those things. They just gave teams that were good an extra chance having been beaten by a team that were better than them. Long before the qualifiers, lots of very good teams were knocked out and so didn't really have a chance to prove how good they were. Just because they were knocked out in their first championship game, it didn't mean they weren't great teams. The qualifiers have shown that some were, but it didn't make them into great teams.

I think Clare was an Open Draw that year and there can always be a Leitrim etc. coming through.

Having an Open Draw does not stop weaker counties getting good underage teams. Laois and Westmeath should still win AI's at under age if they're good enough.

The point regarding good teams getting beaten early in the old system is, it's not the old system anymore. The Qualifiers in one shape or another is here to stay.

There is no reason that Munster and Connacht couldn't be run of in May and June and let Ulster and Leinster finish in early July.

The Qualifiers could be based on games lost, rather than stage lost. That avoids say Mayo playing a Connacht semi and losing just the one match they played, going into the back door at a higher stage than a team that loses a Leinster or Ulster Q/F after maybe playing 2 games.

Say Kerry playing 2 games in Munster winning 1 and losing the final would be treated the same as Ulster or Leinster S/F's.

It's not perfect, but it's fairer than the current system, where Monaghan had to play Fermanagh, Donegal and Derry to get to the same stage as Kerry beating Clare.

Flukey

Clare didn't win the Munster title in 1992 because of the open draw. They did it because they scored more than Kerry did in the final. Now you can say that in the seeded system they'd have had to beat both Cork and Kerry, but before the open draw they were not beating either. It did not suddenly become easier for Clare or the other 3 counties to beat Cork or Kerry because of the open draw in Munster. There had not been a non Kerry v Cork final since Kerry played Limerick in 1965 and neither but the big two had won it since Tipperary did so in 1935. With or without an open draw, if a team are good enough to win, they'll do so. A strong county will always win the All-Ireland, no matter what system is in place. The only thing is that that particular county may have been a weaker county a few years back and then did something about it. I favour an open draw within each province, but not for the All-Ireland itself. Another nice thing about the provincial system is that come the end of September, more than one county will have a significant piece of silverware for their efforts.

K-9

Flukey wrote: »

Clare didn't win the Munster title in 1992 because of the open draw. They did it because they scored more than Kerry did in the final. Now you can say that in the seeded system they'd have had to beat both Cork and Kerry, but before the open draw they were not beating either. It did not suddenly become easier for Clare or the other 3 counties to beat Cork or Kerry because of the open draw in Munster.

A yeah, Munster is must better seeded. Makes it much easier for the weaker counties!

Flukey wrote:

I favour an open draw within each province, but not for the All-Ireland itself. Another nice thing about the provincial system is that come the end of September, more than one county will have a significant piece of silverware for their efforts.

We already have an open draw for the AI itself, the Qualifiers. They could remove the provincial pairings and make it even more open!

I think if you read my last post you'll see I think we can still have the Provincials. The Qualifiers can be made fairer and more equitable. A situation where 2 teams in Munster (Cork and Kerry) are to all intents and purposes automatically in the last 16 every year and everybody else isn't, needs to be reformed. Unfortunately I don't think the Munster Council want this and seeding the Munster championship isn't helping!

Erin Go Brath

The best 2 teams left imo are Kerry and Tyrone and neither are provincial Champions. Provincial wins are just provinical wins and have no bearing on who will win the big one.