Olympic Gymnastics

metaoblivia

I've noticed a few mentions of the controversy surrounding the Chinese gymnasts' ages and scoring controversies in the competition so far, and I thought I'd start a thread explaining what's going on for anyone who's interested.
In 1997, the age limit in gymnastics was raised to 16. A gymnast had to turn 16 within the calendar year in order to compete in senior international competition. So in order to be eligible for the Beijing Olympics, gymnasts had to be born in 1992 or before.
Within the past year, several new Chinese gymnasts have come onto the world stage very suddenly and unexpectedly - this is normal for China. What wasn't normal was that some of these girls had been entered into previous domestic competitions with birth years of 1994 and 1993. Initially, it was just one gymnast, He Kexin. Eventually, as the media caught hold of the story and did some more investigating, three other Chinese gymnasts - Jiang Yuanyuan, Yang Yilin, and Deng Linlin - had similar discrepancies. Additionally, a gymnast named Yang Yun who had competed in the 2000 Sydney Olympics, admitted to being 14 when she competed in Sydney on Chinese national television. While it didn't prove anything about the current group of girls, it did prove that China wasn't above falsifying ages.
The IOC asked the Chinese government to provide passports for all four gymnasts and the Chinese government did. The case is considered closed.

This has stirred a lot of controversy. Most gymnastics fans don't believe there should be an age limit. The FIG, the governing body of gymnastics, doesn't do much to enforce the rule. The only country to be punished for falsifying ages was North Korea. Back in the late 1980's, early 1990s, they claimed one of their gymnasts to be 15... three years in a row. Since then, former gymnasts from Romania and the USSR have come forward saying their ages were falsified (most of them having won world titles when they were under age) and nothing has been done.

The four Chinese gymnasts in question are almost certainly under age. However, there have been under age athletes in just about every world and Olympic competition for the past 30 years, so it's not new. It's just that China got a bit sloppy this time and it was uncovered before the competition started instead of years later.

There has been some suspicious scoring, but so far, at least in my opinion, the right teams and individuals have won the medals, so I'm not too concerned.

But if you have any questions regarding this or anything Olympic gymnastics, feel free to ask!

lostexpectation

so there some chance that 14 year old gymnast girls are better then 16 year old ones?

amacachi

When it comes to the chinese gymnasts I don't see WHY the chinese would've chosen underage competitors. They've had 6 years to train athletes up for these games, so why wouldn't they have chosen 10 year olds. I don't think there should be the minimum age rule, and I'm not saying the girls are over 16, I just don't see why the chinese would've broken the rules.

metaoblivia

Oh absolutely. In fact, the smaller and more childlike the girls are, the easier it is for them to learn and master difficult skills. Gymnastics is all about physics. The more womanly a gymnast is, the harder it is to fly through the air. A turning point for every female gymnast is when she hits puberty. Often times, with the growth spurts, a gymnast will either lose or have to relearn her most difficult skills. Additionally, the adult body is more prone to injury. Gymnastics is very hard on the joints and the longer you do it, the more the joints suffer.

Countries that falsify ages are trying to avoid the fallout of puberty. Younger gymnasts fly higher and are more resilient to injury.

MagicMarker

I don't really understand why there's an age limit in the first place?

Secondly, no one noticing under age competitors in the OLYMPICS of all competitions really makes a mockery of the whole thing.

metaoblivia

amacachi wrote: »

When it comes to the chinese gymnasts I don't see WHY the chinese would've chosen underage competitors. They've had 6 years to train athletes up for these games, so why wouldn't they have chosen 10 year olds. I don't think there should be the minimum age rule, and I'm not saying the girls are over 16, I just don't see why the chinese would've broken the rules.

The Chinese chose these specific competitors because they had a higher scoring potential than their gymnasts who were 16 and over. Very specifically, He Kexin is the best asymmetric bar worker in the world right now. The Chinese needed her to gain an advantage over the American team, who had beaten them in the team competition at the 2007 world championships.
The other gymnasts, Jiang and Yang, were the highest scoring all around gymnasts, and Deng was consistent and brought in solid scores on beam and floor.
10 year olds usually don't have the years in training or the physical power to have the skills necessary for elite gymnastics. That doesn't usually come until age 12 in the Chinese system (which begins training at age 3, but the girls are monitored closely to see who is excelling).

metaoblivia

MagicMarker wrote: »

I don't really understand why there's an age limit in the first place?

Secondly, no one noticing under age competitors in the OLYMPICS of all competitions really makes a mockery of the whole thing.

They put an age limit in to encourage more "mature" athletes and to discourage harsh training environments for young children. There's a very dark side to gymnastics that most people aren't aware of.
The current president of the FIG actually wants to raise the age limit to 18 eventually, which has 95% of the gymnastics community very upset, as most of feel that there should be no age limit, especially if it's not enforced.

amacachi

metaoblivia wrote: »

The Chinese chose these specific competitors because they had a higher scoring potential than their gymnasts who were 16 and over. Very specifically, He Kexin is the best asymmetric bar worker in the world right now. The Chinese needed her to gain an advantage over the American team, who had beaten them in the team competition at the 2007 world championships.
The other gymnasts, Jiang and Yang, were the highest scoring all around gymnasts, and Deng was consistent and brought in solid scores on beam and floor.
10 year olds usually don't have the years in training or the physical power to have the skills necessary for elite gymnastics. That doesn't usually come until age 12 in the Chinese system (which begins training at age 3, but the girls are monitored closely to see who is excelling).

Yes but what I am saying is that they will have been focusing on these olympics as a target for the last 6/7 years, so why not at the start of this period select a number of 10 years olds to focus on, rather than the 8 year olds they did pick. (If indeed they are only 14 now.)

metaoblivia

amacachi wrote: »

Yes but what I am saying is that they will have been focusing on these olympics as a target for the last 6/7 years, so why not at the start of this period select a number of 10 years olds to focus on, rather than the 8 year olds they did pick. (If indeed they are only 14 now.)

That's a great question. I don't know why the Chinese continue to peak their athletes at 14. I imagine they're trying to give their girls more time before puberty hits. Because gymnasts train so hard, most won't go through puberty until 16. And they do have two girls who are age eligible on the team. They just have more girls to choose from when it comes time to select the Olympic team if they include the younger ones.
Gymnastics isn't a sport where you can take a group of girls and train them specifically for one competition. There's too much risk for injury. What you want is a wide selection of athletes so that if one goes down, another can take her place.

Lil' Smiler

MagicMarker wrote: »

I don't really understand why there's an age limit in the first place?

Possibly so that there's not too much pressure put on the younger gymnast. As Metaoblivia said, there is a side people don't know about unless you are involved in the gymnastics world. I've watched many a documentary that talk about the gymnasts being beaten,sexually abused etc. It still happens in the Eastern World, the coaches are so so tough on the gymnasts. They will pull you and haul you through a move or through strength and conditioning,stretching etc until you can do what they want you to do, if you can't you're out.

I don't get actually why FIG enforced the rule or was it the IOC, when other sports such as diving have that brilliant kid from the UK who's 11 or something?

metaoblivia wrote: »

The current president of the FIG actually wants to raise the age limit to 18 eventually, which has 95% of the gymnastics community very upset, as most of feel that there should be no age limit, especially if it's not enforced.

FIG raising the limit to 18 is ridiculous! Alot of gymnasts are close to retiring at that stage. it's unfortunate actually that every Olympics, the gymnasts seem to change on the teams. This year is the first year I don't know anyone on most of the teams... apart from Liukin, Johnson and Beth Tweddle.

Most gymnasts seem to only go through one Olympics and then we don't hear about them again unlike from what I remember of '92 - 2000, I always remember Khorkina (competed in 3 Olympics) and then Miller etc. At 1996 I remember Dominique Moceanu doing her fab "Devil went down to Georgia" floor routine, she was part of the "Magnificent 7" for the US who won gold but you never really heard much about her, she was 14 at the time.

Although injury is a huge factor. Maybe they want to catch the gymnasts at a younger age when they are more supple and maybe less fearless and are willing to try new skills no matter what.

As a member of Irish Gymnastics, I've been receiving an Olympic Blog from a judge of ours who is over there commentating. He was saying in it that he went for a stroll in the park and saw that the chinese had waterproof gymnastics equipment in the park, parallel bars for people to keep fit on... crazy! I'd say they'd possibly use it for scouting too.

robinph

Some of the Chineese "women" look inappropriately young and it's a bit disturbing watching them.

metaoblivia

Lil' Smiler wrote: »

FIG raising the limit to 18 is ridiculous! Alot of gymnasts are close to retiring at that stage. it's unfortunate actually that every Olympics, the gymnasts seem to change on the teams. This year is the first year I don't know anyone on most of the teams... apart from Liukin, Johnson and Beth Tweddle.

Most gymnasts seem to only go through one Olympics and then we don't hear about them again unlike from what I remember of '92 - 2000, I always remember Khorkina (competed in 3 Olympics) and then Miller etc. At 1996 I remember Dominique Moceanu doing her fab "Devil went down to Georgia" floor routine, she was part of the "Magnificent 7" for the US who won gold but you never really heard much about her, she was 14 at the time.

Although injury is a huge factor. Maybe they want to catch the gymnasts at a younger age when they are more supple and maybe less fearless and are willing to try new skills no matter what.

As a member of Irish Gymnastics, I've been receiving an Olympic Blog from a judge of ours who is over there commentating. He was saying in it that he went for a stroll in the park and saw that the chinese had waterproof gymnastics equipment in the park, parallel bars for people to keep fit on... crazy! I'd say they'd possibly use it for scouting too.

By raising the age limit, I think they're hoping to encourage gymnasts to stay in the sport longer. But with the difficulty requirements being what they are, it's becoming harder and harder. Fortunately, the Code is changing in 2009 and difficulty won't be emphasized as much as it is right now. And I don't think Grandi could possibly push through an 18 age limit; there's too much resistance.

It's great to meet another gym fan on here though! Controversies aside, what have you thought of the competition so far (and that's a question for anyone, really)?

Lil' Smiler

18 is definitely a ridiculous age. I think people who aren't involved with gym find a younger gymnast who does well very impressive and why not let them show their talent off? There's no way it'll happen.

I can see the new code being more difficult, this was the first proper test of it and I think it's taken people a while to get used to it... a good few people failing judging courses this year. i have to sit my level 1-6 course and exam but don't see much point considering the code is gonna change.

Competition wise- bars has been so impressive. Beam, nothing too crazy, always still love it though. Vault gymnasts seem to have included more twists into the Tsuks and Yurochenkos, impressive twisting skills. I've found this since 1996, I don't find floor as entertaining as it used to be. Don't get me wrong, the tumbling is so impressive, Nastia Liukins double tuck front was brill but they are no where near as crowd pleasing (in my opinion) than the likes of the old routines by (as mentioned before) Mouceanu or Podkopaeva. Suppose they are concentrating more on the difficulty etc now

I've found that i'm enjoying the mens alot this time around!

metaoblivia

Bars has really evolved into an incredible event under this code. Next year, instead of counting the 10 most difficult elements towards the A score, only 8 will be counted. It should effect bars and beam the most. But Liukin, Yang, Tweddle and He have really pushed the boundaries of what was possible on bars.
Floor has been something of a disappointment for me too. Most girls are doing 5, sometimes 6, tumbling runs, which doesn't leave much time for dance. The tumbling is great, but I feel like the artistry has suffered. It almost feels more like men's floor exercise now, with background music.
Beam has also lost some artistry. I love Liukin's routine, but Johnson's and the Chinese feel like "trick, pause, trick." There's a lack of fluidity.
The men's competition has been really good. China is just amazing here. What gymnasts like Chen Yibing are doing on rings now is almost unbelievable. And I reallyhope Fabian Hambuechen hits his high bar routine for gold there. I was so disappointed in his AA performance the other night.

Lil' Smiler

pparently bars have been the highest scoring piece so far!

Just watching the womens bar finals now!I'm very impressed with the the handstand pirouettes on bars, hugely impressive

Yeah the tumbling, whilst it is impressive it's the dance etc i miss. i remember always trying to look at the gymnasts doing their dance to try include into my routine. I agree it kind of is starting to be like mens with background music, the music doesn't even seem to be as loud anymore!

Wonder how Tweddle will get on, she's on in a few mins!

robinph

Wouldn't really be able to tell much difference between what Tweddle was just doing and any of the rest of them, but it did look pretty impressive.

Lil' Smiler

Tweddle did as routine that was a lot harder, so many more changes between the high and low bar. the rest did more handstand pirouettes on the high bar. the catch and release element is highly difficult especially when you include half turns etc. Her routine had the highest start value out of all the gymnasts who were competing too, so her moves were more difficult than the others.

Maybe you have to be in the know of gymnastics but there was a big difference in her moves, perhaps the other gymnasts who were smaller and quicker looked more impressive, they may have been holding a tighter body shape too.

metaoblivia

Tweddle's routine was credited at a 7.8 and the three who placed above her have routines that start from a 7.7 - so Tweddle doesn't have that much of an advantage, difficulty-wise. Tweddle was off on her last pirouette which is a fairly big deduction and had problems on her dismount, which ultimately cost her a medal, possibly gold.
I feel the right three made the podium, but I'm not pleased with the order.

Lil' Smiler

Meaning you'd like Liukin to have been 1st?

Are you directly involved in gymnastics or are you just a fanatic?

robinph

Think Tweddle said in the interview afterwards that she's now got one of those moves named after her, not a complete disaster then I suppose.

metaoblivia

I used to be a gymnast, and am now a fanatic. I've written several articles for the International Gymnast magazine.
I really detest the tie breaking rule. According to the rules, there can be no ties in Olympic competition, so...

First tiebreak is the start value. Identical for He and Liukin.
Second tiebreak is the deductions taken by the middle four judges. That was also the same.
The third tiebreak was the average of the three lowest of the four counting judges' deductions. This is where Liukin lost.
I actually think Yang's was the cleanest and it baffles me as to how she didn't outscore He and Liukin. Judging from the expression on their faces, it baffled them too. My podium would have been Yang, Liukin, He.
Tweddle did get a skill named after her, the Ray 1/2, otherwise known as a toe-on Tkatchev (straddle over the bar) with a half twist, now known as a Tweddle. I think the irony is, had she done her 7.6 routine, she may have well won. She executes that routine very cleanly and may have had more energy going into that final pirouette and dismount. But it's the Olympics; you have to go all out! And she's not done yet.

Lil' Smiler

So you're not involved in coaching/judging??

Yeah I know that about the judging for Q bars, pretty crushing for Liukin I'd say. I'd agree with putting Yang in 1st, I'd probably have put he in front of Liukin.

I was wondering will Tweddle maybe give 2012 a shot.. she'll be 26 though. It's driving me mad that i can't see the gym live when it's on! it's on at the moment from 11 til 2 but it's only athletics and boxing and cycling that's been on :mad:

Lil' Smiler

Ahh and finally BBC are showing the gym, I've waited around for 6 hours!!!!

Lil' Smiler

Ooooh so Shawn Johnson 1st (16.225), Liukin 2nd (16.025) and Fei 3rd (15.950)... I'd definitely agree.

Johnsons tumbling was amazing, so solid on her first tumble series (flip, flip layout) and her dismount was brilliant!! Full twist double. Really enjoyed the routine, she definitely deserved to win.

I have to say that Liukin has some beautiful jumps, her ring jump (or was it split jump...i can't remember) was so beautiful! She just looks so fluent and graceful on the beam whereas Johnson looks good but seems more solid and powerful.

And Cheng Fei's series of free walkover into the full twisting Korbut flip was brilliant!

Beam has definitely picked up alot in this Olympics. Still not liking the sidewards somi, never a move i liked to perform!

Men's P bars was great too and High Bar is on now, love it!

metaoblivia

Oh no, no coaching or judging for me, but I know several coaches and international judges. I know Tweddle has said she wants to stick around until 2009 worlds, which are in London. You should try to go! I would, but I live in the States; London 2012 is my long term goal.
I haven't seen the competition yet. It won't air for another few hours here. But I'm glad Johnson finally got a gold. It would have been kind of sad for her to walk away with a slew of silvers; the American media would have persecuted her.
Side somi's always look so bad, no matter who does them! Liukin's is one of the best, but I still wish she'd find a prettier skill to replace it with.
I've heard a lot of dissatisfaction with the high bar finals, but I'll save my opinion for when I see the routines!

ccyy123

Just wanted to say that it's very enlightening to see some impartial comments/opinions on this topic. Came across a lot of "Olympics" forum, that really has nothing to do with the Olympics, but country bashing (America, GB, China etc.), really sickening. Also, learned a lot from metaoblivia and Lil' Smiler. Since a lot controversy regarding unfair judging, can anyone explain the scoring system to me, please? I know it's something to do with the difficulty (A score, B score), but still confuses me!! Thanks.

metaoblivia

I saw the competition, and I agree with the placements on the final three events. I would have loved for Pavlova to get the bronze on beam, and I'm not entirely sure she shouldn't have, but it's not enough of a discrepancy to bother me that much. I'm just glad no one medaled with a fall this time around (Li Shan Shan fell off of beam at worlds last year and still got the silver medal on the event).
High bar was correct too. If only Horton hadn't taken that step! His routine was so exciting. But Zou Kai had a lot of intricate pirouetting skills and I respect his second release.

ccyy123 - I will try to explain the new scoring system the best way I can. I'm going to stick with women's gymnastics because I'm most familiar with that.

The A score is the amount of difficulty a gymnast has in their routines. It is, for the most part, objective. A gymnast either does the skill and gets credit or they don't do the skill and they don't get credit. That's kind of a simplification, but we'll work with that for now. For every event except vault, the top ten most difficult skills are added together to get the A score. Gymnastics skills are ranked from easiest to most difficult on a rating system of A - G, A skills being the easiest and getting the least amount of tenths, G skills being the hardest and rarest and getting the most amount of tenths. Additionally, any skills done in combination - one right after another with no pauses - incurs an extra bonus. There's also something called EGR, required elements that must be counted toward the A score. For example, the full turn with the leg up that the gymnasts do on the balance beam (and gives so many of them problems) - that's an EGR. The full turn must count towards the A score. A regular full turn is an A skill, but a full turn with the leg up is a C skill and gets .2 tenths more. Failure to do an EGR results in massive deductions.
Vaults are each given a specific A score according to difficulty.
Good A score ranges are:
Vault: 5.8 - 6.5 (there is a vault ranked at a 7.2 but no one's attempted it in competition yet).
Uneven Bars: 6.8 - 7.8
Balance Beam: 6.5 - 7.4
Floor Exercise: 6.0 - 6.7

An A score can be devalued if skills that are meant to be connected are not connected. Then connection bonus is lost, but credit for the skills stands. This happens on beam mostly and sometimes bars. On the uneven bars, a release skill is not credited to the A score if the gymnast does not touch her hands to the bar when attempting the regrasp. If she catches the bar and lets go, the skill counts and she only gets deducted for the fall.

B score:

B score is the execution of the routine. It is scored out of a 10.00. Judges can only take deductions in .1 (small), .3 (medium) and .5 (large). A fall is a .8 deduction. Deductions aren't just taken for wobbles or steps on the landing. They are also taken for bent knees, unpointed toes, crossed legs in twisting elements, leg separations, missed handstands on uneven bars, bent arms, low landings, lack of height, lack of distance, and any incorrect position in an acrobatic or dance skill. The highest and lowest scores are dropped, leaving the remaining 4 scores to be averaged.

There are also neutral deductions, mainly limited to going out of bounds, either on floor or vault. One foot out of bounds is .1, two feet out of bounds is .3 and landing completely out of bounds can be as much as .5.

And so in the end, you take the A score, add it to the B score, subtract any neutral deductions and that's the score. So if a gymnast had a 6.2 A score on floor, received a 9.0 B score and stepped one foot out of bounds her score would look something like:

6.2 9.0 0.1 = 15.1

I apologize if none of this made any sense at all.

Lil' Smiler

I didn't get to see all the routines. Our coverage here is crap!I sat around for 6 hours waiting for the gym to see the 1st,2nd and 3rd place routines in each piece

I've to do my judging this year, am dreading coming to terms with the new code and then having to accept changes etc. It was difficult enough here, I know in the Us that you have certain levels that you do. We used to do kind of named competitions, 4 piece, 3 piece etc but now we have level 1a - 10, 7-9 being the most difficult

I did judging when I was 15, but only did Club judge level so was mostly judging at friendly level. Concentrated on my coaching for years and gained my cert for Club Coach level so now it's back to judging. Only people who get over 80% here can do judging for levels 7 - 10, and they give out that we have a lack of judges here!

ccyy123

metaoblivia, thank you for the detailed and understandable explanation. So, it is possible that a more difficult routine with a fall could score higher than a simpler routine with a minor mistake? Is that what all the controversy about?
Apologies if I seem so ignorant on this subject, but I love watching artistic gymnastic. Although, really don't like the beam much, seems less graceful and the gymnasts look like they could to fall off and break their necks. I know that applies to any other apparatus, but the beam just looks a lot easiser to do that.
Thanks again for taking the time to explaining the scoring system to me. Much appreciated

Lil' Smiler

ccyy123 wrote: »

So, it is possible that a more difficult routine with a fall could score higher than a simpler routine with a minor mistake? Is that what all the controversy about?
Apologies if I seem so ignorant on this subject, but I love watching artistic gymnastic. Although, really don't like the beam much, seems less graceful and the gymnasts look like they could to fall off and break their necks. I know that applies to any other apparatus, but the beam just looks a lot easiser to do that.
Thanks again for taking the time to explaining the scoring system to me. Much appreciated

Yep it can happen that a gymnast who falls off can score higher and attain a medal over somebody who did a clean routine, .8 is a big enough mark for a fall, going up from the previous .5..

Yes beam is unbelievabley easy to injure yourself on... landing a flip on your neck is never ever good, it kills. Can easily be done on bars too, if you over rotate in the somersault of your dismount..so you travel too far backwards, you generally fall flat on your ass or back. Once I did let go in time and bounced back onto the bar on my neck, very painful!

It's very easy to injure yourself on any piece of equipment in gymnastics but yes beam probably is easiest! If your foot is slightly off in position by a tiny angle it can easily affect your score as you haven't placed it right and it causes you to bend your knees more or to wobble or even fall off.


Then again it's the big challenge of this sport that has made me stick with it for all these years!

metaoblivia

Lil' Smiler wrote: »

I didn't get to see all the routines. Our coverage here is crap!I sat around for 6 hours waiting for the gym to see the 1st,2nd and 3rd place routines in each piece

I've to do my judging this year, am dreading coming to terms with the new code and then having to accept changes etc. It was difficult enough here, I know in the Us that you have certain levels that you do. We used to do kind of named competitions, 4 piece, 3 piece etc but now we have level 1a - 10, 7-9 being the most difficult

I did judging when I was 15, but only did Club judge level so was mostly judging at friendly level. Concentrated on my coaching for years and gained my cert for Club Coach level so now it's back to judging. Only people who get over 80% here can do judging for levels 7 - 10, and they give out that we have a lack of judges here!

Oh that sucks that you only get to see the top routines. I know places where you can watch or download videos of the entire competition. I'll find the links if you want me to!
In the States, it's a long process to become a judge. You have to start at the lowest level and judge there for a few years, then take the test and move up to the next level and stay there for a few years, etc.. It takes like 10 years to finally get up to judging level 10. And it's very hard to become an international brevet judge. I want to do it, but it takes such commitment.
I wouldn't worry too much about the Code changing. From what I hear, the major changes are reducing the number of counted elements to 8 and increasing the cost of a fall to a full point. It won't be a complete overhaul like last time.

metaoblivia

ccyy123 wrote: »

metaoblivia, thank you for the detailed and understandable explanation. So, it is possible that a more difficult routine with a fall could score higher than a simpler routine with a minor mistake? Is that what all the controversy about?
Apologies if I seem so ignorant on this subject, but I love watching artistic gymnastic. Although, really don't like the beam much, seems less graceful and the gymnasts look like they could to fall off and break their necks. I know that applies to any other apparatus, but the beam just looks a lot easiser to do that.
Thanks again for taking the time to explaining the scoring system to me. Much appreciated

Yeah, as Lil Smiler said, a gymnast can fall off of an apparatus and still score higher than someone who did a clean routine. A great example is Li Shanshan, who fell off of balance beam in the event finals at Worlds last year and still tied for the silver medal, beating out other gymnasts who had not fallen.
Even at the Olympics this year, in prelims, Nastia Liukin fell on her dismount off of bars and received a 15.950 (7.7 A score, 8.25 B score). Meanwhile, her teammate, Shawn Johnson, hit a very clean routine and scored a 15.325 (6.3 A score, 9.025 B score).
I personally think it's one of the great weaknesses of the current scoring system. Difficulty is great, but gymnastics is about more than that, in my opinion.
And again, agreeing with Lil Smiler - all of the events are dangerous. But the worst accidents I've seen/heard of were on the vault. One of the reasons they changed from the old vaulting horse to the new vaulting pad was safety. Sang Lan, a Chinese gymnast, suffered a massive neck injury on a timer vault in the 1998 Goodwill Games leaving her paralyzed for the rest of her life. Tens years earlier, an American gymnast, Julissa Gomez, broke her neck while vaulting a the World Sports Fair in Japan and eventually died as a result of her injuries. I've heard of broken legs and arms on the beam, but that apparatus hasn't killed anyone yet, so I'm willing to cut it some slack. :pac:

Lil' Smiler

Aw I miss the gym

Really? I had no idea bout those poor girls! I knew why the vault was changed but had never heard of that stuff! That's terrible!

10 Years to become a judge!?! Wow!! If they did that here we'd have no judges at all, they're always crying out for extra judges but they don't put on enough courses to get the amount of judges they want. Gymnastics in Ireland isn't big so we don't get much funding compare to the other sports which I suppose is a contributing factor.

Yeah that's the thing I suppose about becoming an International Brevet, it's not something you can really say no to when asked to judge at something!

While we're on the topic of gym and discussing gym. One of my colleagues was thinking of starting a gymnastics forum.. similar the The Chalk Bucket etc, she's started trying it out on a free forum for the moment so if anyone wants to check it out, she'd love that. She asked me to post it here so that if anyone knows any kids that are interested in gym or anything like that to go ahead and contribute so she can see how it's going to work.

http://gymcrazy.forumotion.com

metaoblivia

I joined up! I'll try and spread the word to a few Irish gym fans I know