self defence classes in Dublin

Mrs Depp

Hi! i'm a total newbie and this is my first post so hope it works!
just wondering if anyone knows of any good self defence classes in north side of Dublin?

thanks

wudangclan

where on the northside are you?
can you travel etc?

Mrs Depp

am in Finglas, but yea can travel....no bother!

SorGan

http://www.defendu.ie/instructors.htm
never trained with them but one of their trainers posts here.

apart from that you can get involved in a more sport based training system?
lots of lads here train northside.
if thats within your interest.:)

Baggio...

Jon Mackey runs Self-protection classes in Cabra (and UCD) - he's a top instructor.

Here's his address:

jon@ucireland.com

Mrs Depp

SorGan wrote: »

http://www.defendu.ie/instructors.htm
never trained with them but one of their trainers posts here.

apart from that you can get involved in a more sport based training system?
lots of lads here train northside.
if thats within your interest.:)

kinda want to do more self defence cos im going travelling next year, but thanks a million, will look into those!

SorGan

do both for the crack:)

wudangclan

or try wudang sanshou in drumcondra or bridgestone muay thai.
both oriented towards competition and imo would be more suited for purposes of self defence

www.freewebs.com/sanshou

www.bridgestonemuaythai.com

MaeveD

Mrs Depp wrote: »

Hi! i'm a total newbie and this is my first post so hope it works!
just wondering if anyone knows of any good self defence classes in north side of Dublin? thanks

Hi Mrs Depp, the womens self defence we teach has been specifically designed for women. We don't have any courses planned in August, but if you're interested drop me a pm and we'll try and work something out. maeve

SorGan

wudangclan wrote: »

or try wudang sanshou in drumcondra or bridgestone muay thai.
both oriented towards competition and imo would be more suited for purposes of self defence

www.freewebs.com/sanshou

www.bridgestonemuaythai.com

How'd you figure that?:)

wudangclan

i tried the non competitive stuff for a couple of years(kung fu)
realised i could'nt fight my way out of a paper bag (couldnt defend myself with my ego it turns out)
switched over to the competitive stuff and i'm confident i could defend myself much better having actually fought
as opposed to pretending to fight.
its not my intention to ruffle feathers,but the lady wants to learn to defend herself...

SorGan

"unruffled":)
there is a lot of worth in all the above.

wudangclan

please allow me to qualify my answer.
self defense is probably best achieved in terms of spirit.
to distil my own experience,having spent 3 years learning technique did'nt prepare for actually taking a blow to the head (in a competition as it happens) a world of hurt,as they say.
competing or training with guys who are competing gives an insight into the psychology required to cower an attacker,as well as utilising technique in a more realistic setting,more conducive to proper self defense (this is just my experience and my own humble opinion)
and so this was my recommendation to the op

Boru.

To the OP, I would second the recomendation of Jon Mackey, he teaches good effectuive stuff.

Wudangclan, I would be interested to know what self defence classes you attended and when that lead you to such conclusions.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. In so far as you say that practice of techniques without physical contact do not prepare you for real world conflict.

However, in my professional opinion as a self defence instructor, I would say that while competition certainly prepares you better than punching thin air, it can teach you very poor habits that can seriously hamper your abilities to defend yourself adequately.

In my opinion the best way to train for self defence is self defence training, that does not mean competition fighting. This is based on my 15 plus years in traditional martial arts and my current status as a self defence instructor. The real world has neither rings, saftey gear, rounds, referees or pre fight square offs.

I would be genuinely interested in how you would logically, rationally argue that sparring and competition is more realistic then full contact conflict emersion.

For the OP, any decent self defence course teaches full contact conflict emerison and training. In short this means you will fight full speed and full power against a resisting aggressive opponent that is trying to beat you as much as you are them. However I hasten to add that actual physical conflict is the least important aspect of self defence training in my opinion.

HammerHeadGym

Boru. wrote: »

I would be genuinely interested in how you would logically, rationally argue that sparring and competition is more realistic then full contact conflict emersion.

Having been in around 300 fights in 12 years on the door (I'm not a thug, that's less than 1 a fortnight) I can honestly say that competetive, combat sports are the most effective training for 'real life' applications. For anyone who doesn't know me, I spent 20 years in traditional arts and travelled the world to study with several masters of their art. I have spent the last 22 months doing competion orientated combat sports and can honestly say that I have learned more about fighting in the last two years than in the previous twenty. All I really learned in the traditional arts was sociology (that's politics, kids:cool:).
Where the combat sports may let down the self defence enthusiast is that the is no training for a street fight mentality. Some people may have it naturally and others may be able to develop it but it probably won't be at the local jitz school. However I've found most trad schools don't really cover it very well either. The vast majority of situational awareness skills that I have seen have been from security personnel, rarely in the dojo. I think where the trad schools let their students down is that they know there is no fear of getting hit or hurt so they never have to face a real, adrenilin dump, 'fight or flight' reaction and so don't know what to do when it actually happens. Your first few shin kicks in sparring will soon have you facing your demons in a way that I have not come close to in two decades of traditional study.
Speaking from personnal experience, the first time you face a serious fight and it dawns on you that you've never actually done a technique on someone who didn't want you to, is pants- sh!tting terror. A feeling I have not encountered since starting to regularly spar my technique against guys who wanted to beat me.

Lazer Smart

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

the first time you face a serious fight and it dawns on you that you've never actually done a technique on someone who didn't want you to, is pants- sh!tting terror.

I couldn't agree with this more. Thats exactly why i stopped training in traditional arts and started training in combat sports.

Baggio...

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

Having been in around 300 fights in 12 years on the door (I'm not a thug, that's less than 1 a fortnight) I can honestly say that competetive, combat sports are the most effective training for 'real life' applications.

Well, it's one perspective, and if Dave's made it work for him - that's great. But I think there are many ways to skin a cat.

Most of the top professional self-protection/Combatives instructors would not agree with his perspective, remember were not talking about "traditional Martial Arts" here.

The instructors that I'm referring to, are generally classed as some the best around (world class) and have had VAST real world experience in violence (with some individuals having well over 500 fights - against armed and unarmed opponents). Most have been doormen at one point, for many years, but their experience often goes far beyond that, in very high risk environments (from the battlefields, to under cover narcotics).

Anyone looking for self-defense skills should try a few places, including places that do combat sorts (as they have a lot to offer).

However, I would certainly pose a few questions to the instructors, wherever you decide train - combat sport or not.

1) Does the Gym or system, have an active strategy showing the student, not only how to avoid and escape a potential attack, but how to read the signs before everything kicks off?

2) Does the gym have strategies to deal with multiple opponents? If so, how often are these practiced? especially if it's a combat sport which tends to focus on one opponent in a ring.

3) Does the gym have strategies to deal with armed opponents? How often blah blah blah...

4) Does the gym understand the difference between "ring craft" and street
violence. And if so, how often do they practice the latter mode (and how do they make the distinction between the two).

5) Can the gym explain what happens to the brain under duress, and how it's thought processes are impeded? (fight or flight, adrenal response, fear, etc.)

6) Does the gym explain the "modus operandi" of the modern attacker, and what type ruses or deceptions they employ.

7) Does the gym practice for fighting under the worst possible conditions, and in different environments (lifts, cars,corridors).

8) Does the gym use a set of "Hard skills" that have a high probability of success. Do these these skills have the versatility be used effectively under duress, in all situations?

9) Does the gym practice realistic street scenarios? or do they just practice ring craft?

10) Does the gym/system have an effective strategy for dealing with an ambush type of attack (from a mugging, to an attempted abduction).

11) Does the system hold up under pressure, when it's tested with full contact?

12) Does the gym have a program specifically geared towards women?

13) What is the gyms primary focus? - Is it winning competitions or just self-defense? If it's main focus is on winning competitions, then it stands to reason that they will spend very little or no time on SD, or vice versa.

Just a few things to think about when you are looking at taking up a class specifically for "self-defense" purposes.

Lastly, Mrs Depp seems to want some basic self-defense skills. So I'm not sure that she actually wants to get into "full contact sparring", or rolling around the floor. Also Combat sports are often a big commitment - which may not be suitable for everyone, if you are going to compete, etc.

wudangclan

i was merely relating my own experience as previously stipulated.
i maintain that spirit is probably better for self defence than any particluar technique.add technique and so much the better.
i simply related my personal experience in this regard and advocated the two clubs where i train.this is not to detract from the experiences and opinions of others.
i hope both my posts and the posts of others are useful to the op in finding her own route to self defence.

Baggio...

wudangclan wrote: »

i maintain that spirit is probably better for self defence than any particluar technique.add technique and so much the better.

Totally agree with you there...

People have been defending themselves for thousands of years with absolutely no training whatsoever. It's all down to mindset and being willing to step up when the times comes. As OP just said add, add skills and training into the equation, and you'll greatly increase you're chances.

If you've not got your mind right you will fail.

ryoishin

Why do women need their own classes?

Baggio...

ryoishin wrote: »

Why do women need their own classes?

Why don't they?

Depends, not all women want to get into the ring and go toe to toe at full contact. If they do - good luck to them. Some great female fighters out there.

But there's quite a lot out that just want skills for self-protection purposes, and don't want that whole gamut of competition training.

It all depends what you want from your training.

ryoishin

Yeah thats what I mean, why do they need their own self defence classes?

Genuine question not having a go.

pearsquasher

Bujinkan Ireland has several clubs on the Northside of Dublin.

Check www.bujinkan.ie for clubs in Artane, Glasnevin, Pearce st. Bujinkan has self-defence applications of classical martial arts training and is very much suited for women i.e. strength not necessary. If you're travelling there's clubs spread thoughout the world.

Baggio...

Well, I guess it depends a lot on the individual.

Some women thrive in physical combative sports. However, some tend to be more passive, and see "self-defense" classes as a more viable option. Some are looking for a certain level of confidence and believe they will find it in this type of training.

It should be noted - that I don't believe in weekend courses (seminars on the other hand, are a different kettle of fish). I don't believe the knowledge will suddenly spring back when you need it 2 months after the course. Continuous training must be adhered to in order for any material to be useful (excluding the awareness type of training - that could help someone right off the bat).

Unfortunately, alot of the time the aggressor tends to be bigger and stronger than the intended victim (ie - the women in this case). Also the nature of the attack tends to be different then it would be for a male. It's very rare that a girl gets faced with a gratuitous attacker (although it can happen). More than likely it's a form of psychological abuse (domestic which often leads to physical abuse.) or some kind of attempted grab/bag snatch or rape situation, etc.

Awareness training is paramount for everyone (but even more so for woman). Because most of the attacks they are likely to face will be from an ambush - when they are least expecting it (makes more sense for an attacker to do this). A lot of it is common sense o be fair. Stay in well lit areas, Lock your car doors, be switched on... you know the rest...

So certain tactics and hard skills have to change to reflect the nature of the threat. That said, when women come to my class we still go through the UC curriculum. But we also add skills that could be of more use to women or a smaller type of person.

Baggio...

PS - If I take my girlfriend as an example she has tons of natural aggression, which is great:). That is to say, if anyone messes with her she will defend herself viciously (she does not train by the way - she hates all martial arts). While she has this great natural resource she is very small, and has not much in the way of strength or power. She could not hurt me at all - by merely slugging away. At best, she would probably make an attacker more annoyed than anything else.

So even if she trained for years (boxing or whatever) she would still be pretty lacking in power. That's assuming she, or anyone else has the patience to train for "X" amount of time.

So rather than teaching her how to punch we would give her higher probability tactics, and hard skills (although we would still always train on impact). In reality her object is not to knock the guy out per se (great if she did and all) but it's just to buy some time and space, in order to make as much noise as possible while facilitating an escape.

HammerHeadGym

Hey Baggio,

I hear you man. I actually made the same point about mental training and preperation. Generally neither Traditional nor Sport training cover this. Combat sports however, will prepare you physically in a way that neither traditonal nor reality based stuff ever could. I think part of it may be that there is no 'flow' in trad stuff. i.e. A attacks B, B uses whichever defence is currently being practised, stop, reset. There is little to no deviation from the syllabus and that is what stifles the growth of those students. (It was certainly the issue in my case).
I did notice however that adrenilin has become more of a useable tool than a side effect, now that I've had a few ring fights and have been forced to control my adrenal response. Again, a lot more effective than 20 years of the other stuff.

Let me put it another way; If I knew I was going to be attacked at some stage in the future and there was nothing I could do about it, I would spend any available training day in a combat sport gym. I would not go to traditional or reality based training. I beleive that training that way would give me the greatest chance of survival.

Baggio...

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

Hey Baggio,

I beleive that training that way would give me the greatest chance of survival.

Hey Dave,

Fair points there... And in all honesty I think that Combat Sports are some of toughest things you could possibly do, and will pay HUGE dividends in terms of physical and mental preparation. They will take a person to the next level.

That said... all "reality based" stuff is not the same. Some is better than others. In all fairness you'd really have to try it out just to see how tough some of it can be. Most Self-defense stuff gets a really bad rap here, and I can see why. Theres a lot of poor vids out there...

That's why we tend to disassociate ourselves from the terms "self-defense" and "reality based". I only use them here, because it's hard to explain the difference between them and self-protection.

My one bugbear with combat sports is, and always has been, is that they primarily focus on ring craft (which is what they are designed for). So the strategy is slightly out of kilter when it comes to the street. Now lets say you took your combat sport training and said - we don't want to bother with the ring anymore, now we'll just use our skills for the street. I think you would see quite a different animal. Especially, if you get good body armor on, and pressure test it.

I've always said that if you take a combat type martial art, and add a few principles (nothing that drastic as it goes) one would end up with a very solid street/system indeed. Assuming the sport uses that full contact boxing type mechanics.

I still think that strategy wise that self-protection is more solid for the street, just in my opinion. And has been used very successfully by certain parties in various hostile environments. So that's the way I'd go, if I knew I was going to be in a scrap. That's said, nothing can give you a 100% guarantee... If anyone ever claims that - just ask for your money back.

Really though, if you have had that many encounters, you've obviously been doing something right. So if it 'aint broke....

HammerHeadGym

Hey Baggio,

Yeah, I totally agree on the varying quality of training. I did plenty of 'reality based' stuff over the years myself. I just found it to be much focus on techniques that might work and not enough focus on, awareness, escaltion, the fence et al.
And while I agree that reality based training will prepare you to be better prepared and more aware, I think it's always going to come a distant second in terms of physical tools for when the action starts.
With regards to ringcraft, I can not emphasise enough how improving my ringmanship has helped with RL encounters. Knowing what technique leads best into the one I want to finish with and so on. Against an untrained fighter, even a 'street fighter', the odds suddenly became stacked unbeleivably in my favour since I started sports combat.
My final point is that nothing can prepare you to deal with the 'all or nothing' response you body will have to a sudden, violent situation, except exposure. You can train for it (as in the training we have done in RBSD over the years), which will help but in the end only experience will help you get used to it. The only way to prepare otherwise is to put yourself in terrifying position and ride it out. The closest I have come to the feeling just before/ at the start of a real fight, is just before/ at the start of a ring fight against a stranger. Still a controlled envirnment with rules, referees and judges but as close to actually fighting as makes no difference.
That being said, the amount of training involved in getting in a ring may be more than the average person has to spend on a hobby. It is also, by no means the only way of defending yourself. Most of the fights I got into on the door were with only traditional training and I never lost one. Had a couple of nil all draws mind you

Baggio...

Hi Dave,

I know exactly what you are saying about the RBSD type "techniques". Defensive tactics that are practiced in a "by rote combination" manner, and in all honesty 98% of them haven't a hope in hell of working against a non-compliant attacker under stress. That's why we don't practice "specific defenses" per se. But they do work in a nice warm fuzzy Dojo....

Ring craft is great when it all kicks off, that is to say it's you vs one S.O.B - it now becomes a "match fight".

One of the big problems here is, that the criminal also wants the highest probability of success, so more than likely he'll try get in close, and then attack you when you're not ready. He'll usually ask you a question (or another ruse), so he can sucker punch you. Or his mate comes in from behind, or maybe he pulls a weapon on you.

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter how good you are if you don't see the attack coming in the first place. After that, it's nearly too late... These career criminals, may not be that tough in terms of the ring, but they will certainly have the experience to attack with a hell of a lot of speed and ferocity - when you are least ready ready for it. And conditions favor them. Unfortunately the days of an honorable match fight seem over...

Reguarding the physical side of things. We in turn, need something that gives us the highest probability of success. So this would mean being able to deliver as much "impact" as possible to the head. Unlike being in a ring there is no bobbing or weaving or just "feeling out the opponent". Once you start you don't stop. Causing as much damage to your opponent as you can - within the restraints of the law of course. Basically it's as much as you need to do in order for you to get the hell out of dodge. That is to say you, don't leave they guy in the pavement in pools of blood.

If you strike first and continue striking. It will turn into a "non-reciprocal" exchange. Assuming you can manifest significant impact. After you start on him, he wont have time to think about hitting you - you'll turn his attitude into being defensive .That's why we spend so much time training for power. If he covers up (which he probably will) - you can simply wipe his hands away and continue striking the head. Or Blast his base out with you knees in order to change his focus, so you can go back to the head (a high/low principal as McCann would call it). More than likely at some point the range will change, and you will get in close, he may try and grapple because he doesn't want to get hit anymore. If he does you just hold him and hit with you elbows and knees.

Some people say this sounds brutal, but you only do as much as you need to. If a drunk comes up to you in the street and put his hands on you. You don't use head butt, knees and elbows. But it's better to train for someone who is the toughest opponent imaginable - then you can turn it down if you need it. One other thing I should clarify on a pre-emptive striking. You would only ever use this if you have the honest belief that you are in danger and haven't got the option to run away.

Hey, a few draws in 300 and you're still here to talk about it - you're doing something right!

B.

HammerHeadGym

Baggio... wrote: »

within the restraints of the law of course.

HAHAHA! Of course

Niall Keane

"full contact conflict emersion"

I'm tired of this nonsense. What's the knock-out rate for this, I mean how aggressive is the attacker. Has someone trained for months, giving up most social activities to knock you out? Or does the training involve holding back the "kill"? Have I heard mention of a full body armour suit? that isn't reality based that's fantacy based.
Don't say the techniques are too dangerous, the point is training the delivery of such techniques, against not just an uncooperative opponent but someone who wants to hurt you seriously. Blasting away to prevent a response is rubbish as any boxer can tell you. This blind rage is easily led astray, misdirected, circumvented, and countered.
In the ring you can be killed legally. Even on the street this level of intent is rare. No boxer wants to kill his opponent, but the possibility of it happening to him exists, and we and our loved ones know this. Does this possibility occur in full contact conflict emersion? Do the students know that should they become cavalier in their training they risk serious injury. I don't mean in some fantacy world, but next month at the definately going to happen fight?
Door experience experts etc. means nothing to me, I usually fought under 90kg. I eventually got to 4th in the world in sanda. I state that I believe there is no fighter of any dicipline on this earth who I wouldn't destroy if they had too many pints and became aggressive, and I was sober. So what can I learn from a bully, except what Sun Tzu already told us, those of the ancients who excelled in warfare did so when it was easy to do so. But here he's talking about expansion, and war, aggression not self defense.
Finally I have heard that a person doesn't need to be a champion kickboxer etc. to defend against street thugs. Thugs don't even approach that level of skill.
So what is being advocated by such statements? Personally yes, I loved what I was doing enough to strive to master it, an impossible task, but a constant ambition. The alternative, seems to be compromise, not putting effort into it, the generation of a mental excuse to fail, and that is the most dangerous attitude to have in a self defense situation. Like boxers who develop a pain in their back, or didn't get to train enough this time, they always lose.

Keep it real,

Niall

Baggio...

Niall Keane wrote: »

Blasting away to prevent a response is rubbish as any boxer can tell you. This blind rage is easily led astray, misdirected, circumvented, and countered.

You've definitely got the wrong end of the stick here... While yes, a lot of it's about mustering up full agression. But the key word here is "Vehemence", which is controlled agression.

In this state you still have technical ability as any boxer will tell you.

Boru.

I'd expand on what Baggio said, most of what you said above Niall, while understandable is not factual, or at least not in my experience, not only in teaching classes, but in many of the others I have also particpated in, including but certianly not limited to training sessions with the like's of Mick Coup, Jim Wagner, Lee Morrison, Richard Demetri and more.

To briefly answer your questions, by and large the attackers are extremely aggressive, most students understand that they can only truly test their training against a full aggressive and uncooperative opponent. The attacker doesn't want to lose. Some of course have a a hard time being aggressive, they need a longer learning curve and that's fine. But yes, by and lagre they are very aggressive. Certainly all my training partners are.

No they do not by and large train for months and give up their social lives to knock somoene out. It's not needed. Most street thugs, criminals and anyone likely to actually physically assault you don't either. It's not terribly difficult to hit a guy hard.

As regards going for the "kill" I personally don't teach people to kill or murder others. A lethal force situation has to be legally justifiable - I do teach that.

I don't beleive I mentioned a full body armout suit at all in any of these posts.

Not once did I say the techniques are too dangerous in this discussion. Where are you getting this?

Niall Keane wrote:

Blasting away to prevent a response is rubbish as any boxer can tell you. This blind rage is easily led astray, misdirected, circumvented, and countered.
In the ring you can be killed legally. Even on the street this level of intent is rare.

Couldn't agree more.

Niall Keane wrote:

Does this possibility occur in full contact conflict emersion? Do the students know that should they become cavalier in their training they risk serious injury.

Any physical contact such as self defence training carries with it that risk. All my students are made fully aware of this and have the right not to praticipate in anything they do not feel comfortable with. Prior to any course of training a full disclosure and legal documentation of such risks including and up to a fatal injury is signed and consented to by all participants.

I'm not sure what you are tyring to say with regards to your personal experience or your reference to Sun Tzu, I don't think that's been mentioned here previously either.

Again, I'm not sure where the champion kickboxer bit comes from, but i agree with the statement. Self defecne training must be entered into with an intesne mindest, as does anything worth achieveing. At the end of the day you only get out what you put it.

Insaneirish

Hi, just incase that you have not heard or got a class yet.. i would recommend Silat.. i started over 4 to 5 months ago and its given me great confidence in myself and in my new abilities.. its the most realistic martial arts that i have ever done and I have done Karate and Kick Boxing.. it concentrates on Ground work, knife attacks, multiple attackers, and its even good for women too.

Check out
http://guruliam.blogspot.com/
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=4712240552

shakencat

Bump this thread!!

Am looking for ladies self defence classes on the north side of dub?

rickara3

I'll add a second bump. I live in North County Dublin and am looking for something very much self-defence orientated as I am planning to travel alone a fair bit. Awareness training and reading/adapting to potential situations in addition to actual techniques seem like the most suitable way to go while I'm starting off at least so any suggestions along these lines would be great

SVJKarate

shakencat wrote: »

Bump this thread!!

Am looking for ladies self defence classes on the north side of dub?

Do you mean strictly a "self defense" weekend class of some sort, or a class where you can learn the essentials of fighting technique, practice those techniques in relative safety, and gradually build up an ability to defend yourself (the best method of which, in the main, is learning how to spot the danger signs & escape)??

In other words, are you looking for a quick solution (which IMHO won't work) or are you hoping to start training for the long haul?

shakencat

SVJKarate wrote: »

Do you mean strictly a "self defense" weekend class of some sort, or a class where you can learn the essentials of fighting technique, practice those techniques in relative safety, and gradually build up an ability to defend yourself (the best method of which, in the main, is learning how to spot the danger signs & escape)??

In other words, are you looking for a quick solution (which IMHO won't work) or are you hoping to start training for the long haul?

no no, like once a week for however long, Id prefer that to a weekend course...

SVJKarate

shakencat wrote: »

. . . like once a week for however long . . .

In that case you could look at our club (see my signature link) if you wanted a striking art, or take up boxing if you wanted striking but don't think kicking would suit you. A grappling-only MA like Jiu-Jitsu or Judo (which are both excellent arts to train in) is not the ideal for self-defence (IMHO) because good self-defence practice if it gets physical is to hit hard and leave quickly rather than engage in ground-work or even stand-up grappling. A good MMA school could also give you a solid foundation for self-defence, and there's people in this Forum better placed than I to recommend a good one.

Whichever way you go, be sure to visit the club and watch the training (or join in for free if they'll let you) and be sure you enjoy it before you sign up and pay anything. You need to like and trust the instructor and the students from the start if you're going to stick with the training.

Best of luck!

Oki9Sedo!

Krav Maga is an excellent option. Been doing it a few years, it's very effective and simple. There are lots of clubs in Dublin under organisations like IKMF, KMG, KMW etc.