Where have all the fish gone

kakak1

Looking at several posts lately there appears to be a drop off in the numbers playing live cash poker.
Already there has been one casualty with CHL closing & the rumors persist with regard to the Sporting Emporium.
I thought “ditpoker” had an excellent post in relation to “capped buy ins” and while I might not agree with all that was said I have to agree with a lot of it.

If I was involved in the “poker industry” I would be analyzing ( and this should have been happening some time ago) why so many players start the game, play in casinos & card clubs and then suddenly disappear from the scene altogether.
I can only speak for Waterford where I play on a very regular basis and there is a hard core of both tournament & cash players. But there is a massive turnover of players, especially tournament players and isn’t it time someone asked why?

Do these players find they are just not making a fist of the game ?
Are they losing too much money ?
Are they uncomfortable playing against better players ?
Has anyone tried to coach them along ?
Do they feel intimidated against more experienced players ?
Are they fed up with the abuse for making a bad call & then sucking out ?
One of the reasons I feel many players give up is because of the sheer arrogance & bad manners shown to them at the poker tables. The lack of table etiquette is at times quite frightening and depending on the club / casino there may be drink involved as well. We all want the fish to make bad calls so why are they constantly berated when they do inevitably suck out on the odd occasion. Why do players constantly throw tantrums when given a bad beat. It is all part & parcel of the game.

I must say playing cash at any of the festival weekends is no longer enjoyable no matter how soft the table is running because they have now turned into piss ups for those no longer involved in the main event. This can also apply to the side events.
Economically this country is changing fast & many of our younger poker players do not know what lean times are like. For many,” poker money” is disposable income money so we can expect a big slow down in the next few months.
If I were running a club / casino I’d be making sure any punter was made feel welcome & their business was appreciated. I’d also be making sure they stayed.
If not the sharks will soon have nothing to feed on.

CHD

Recession and the Poker Boom is over = Less fish

bohsman

CHD wrote: »

Recession and the Poker Boom is over = Less fish

Recession is always good for the gambling industry.

Ill say it again, if the 50 small clubs around the country closed the current clubs with smaller numbers would be bigger now than they were 5 years ago before the small clubs opened.

BobSloane

bohsman wrote: »

Ill say it again, if the 50 small clubs around the country closed the current clubs with smaller numbers would be bigger now than they were 5 years ago before the small clubs opened.

Just enjoying a post-work dooby - that sentence confused the fk out of me!

ditpoker

obviously you know where i think the fish have gone. I dont think they are catered for. the SE introduced a schedule with 4-5 €100 mtt's in their week.
The jackpot 20 game and jackpot 40 game are still busy. and they are trying to get their monday and tuesday 5 euro rebuys going. they are the ryan-air of poker, and, as a result, quite busy.

I think all this talk of great structures and big buy ins and prizepools has hurt the game. i think the more 20-50 euro games going regularly will help, with 100+ games becoming a much less frequent occurance.

I think the average industrial wage in ireland is approx 35k per annum. or about 550 after tax per week. If a clubs weekly tournament schedule adds up to more than €400 they'll have trouble getting people in the door regularly.

Jackpot weekly total: Monday 15, Tuesday 15, Wed 45, Thurs 23: approx 100 to play 4 tournaments.
Fitz weekly total: Monday 80, tues 55, wed approx 55, thurs 100, fri 100, sat 120: approx 500 to play all tournaments.

much more likely you'll get fish playing the jackpot schedule than the fitz schedule.

kakak1 wrote: »

I must say playing cash at any of the festival weekends is no longer enjoyable no matter how soft the table is running because they have now turned into piss ups for those no longer involved in the main event. This can also apply to the side events. .

There is no alcohol allowed on the poker floor for any Poker Ireland tournaments, we want to cut out the piss-up nature of events and make it more about the poker, if someone wants to get hammered, there is a bar area away from the poker table for that.

bohsman

BobSloane wrote: »

Just enjoying a post-work dooby - that sentence confused the fk out of me!

5 years ago everybody went to Dublin for the big games and anyone within a 2 hour drive went to Dublin on a nightly basis, now they have options closer to them, if those options disapeared theyd be back in Dublin and you would see that the poker is bigger now than it was 5 years ago, not sure thats any clearer.

BobSloane

lol cheers bohsman.
The original post seemed like a tongue-twister/riddle to me

kakak1

CHD wrote: »

Recession and the Poker Boom is over = Less fish

I'm speaking about the players who did play but no longer do & this happened before the recession hit

kakak1

bohsman wrote: »

Recession is always good for the gambling industry.

Ill say it again, if the 50 small clubs around the country closed the current clubs with smaller numbers would be bigger now than they were 5 years ago before the small clubs opened.

agreed, country wide there are more players than say 5/7 years ago but I'm asking where are the players gone who were playing 3/5 years ago, there is a huge turnover of players in the past 5/7 years in the smaller clubs who no longer play. Why ???

spothediference

great post kaka,speaking as a relative newcomer to poker playing mainly on line ,ive only played live once[waterford]and didnt find it enjoyable at all due to the large number of loud mouthd so called SUPERIOR players.as u said -if they win a pot with a superior hand, the newbie is easy prey and when the so called fish out flops or rivers our PHIL IVEY ,its how dare u call me with that trash.in fairness theres nothing the people running the clubs or casinos can do about this,all they can do is make u feel welcome.i suppose its just part of the transition from playing on-line to live play.

bohsman

It happens, theres a boom, people give it a shot, get hooked for a while and move on, thats before you get to people that are only willing to go broke every week for so long. Others are online, Ive practically dissapeared off the live scene the last 18 months.

MrPillowTalk

The poker boom is over hence there are way less players. I started off in a home game around the time of late night poker kicking off, it started out with about 6 or 7 regular players once a week and grew to regularly having 30 attend and from running one night a week to basically running all weekend. Then gradually it died off to a state where it runs at most once every 3 months and back to 6 odd players attending. Out of all the people who started playing poker in that game probably 60 locals, I know of 7 who still play semi regularly myself included.

Poker was the hip thing for a few years the majority of the small time players who came during that time have moved on to something else.

I do agree that the way bad and new players are treated by regulars is appaling and is definately a negative influence on people coming back. The first time you go to a casino can be quite intimidating the antics of some of the jokers out there can be offputting.

As for the festivals being too much like piss ups, thats exactly what they are! and I hope that never changes, I wouldnt be bothered going to Cork to play a 1500 game unless I though the craic would be excellent.

BobSloane

Maybe people just try poker out a few times like bowling or stamp collecting or some other crap. In fairness most people that post on a poker forum are a litttle obsessed with poker.(no offence most people)
This is not the norm. Some randomer would be like "ya its alright" or "ya its fairly boring"

newbie2

BobSloane wrote: »

Just enjoying a post-work dooby - that sentence confused the fk out of me!

FK me too !! :eek:

gigetheman

Great post dave but as we have see in our local club and other clubs around the cash players are dying out a combination of a few things,but i think it boils down to the fact that the money is not there anymore people arent willing to gamble what they dont have.There are hard times ahead for both players and the local clubs,the bigger tournaments will see a reduction in the numbers,i think the poker boom has peaked myself but i do think that it will level out sooner than later

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

bad manners and bad odors imo

why would you go to a big club to get laughed at when you can have a nice friendly game round your local pub

it's not unique to dublin though. obnoxiousness just seems to be tolerated in poker worldwide. when i was up in the vic in london recently there were two regular players on a very fishy table who spent their whole time trying to get the fish (including me) to give up poker and never grace a poker table again.

mehh, it'll probably never change. most of the fish money will end up in pub games (except for Fri and Sat night). which is obviously -ev for good players

carlop

ditpoker wrote: »

The jackpot 20 game and jackpot 40 game are still busy. and they are trying to get their monday and tuesday 5 euro rebuys going. they are the ryan-air of poker, and, as a result, quite busy.

lol! great comparison!

Headspace

NLH had been v popular in the 70's and lost popularity until the last boom. Good plrs have too much of an edge, and the games dry up, Iwouldnt keep showing up handing over my weekly wage. I totally agree that the attitude of some of the regulars is dispicable, it would not be tolerated in any other setting. Losing totally sucks but if theses guys cant take it they should be ejected from the club for abusing other plrs because they have defo frightened people away

Macspower

totally agree with attitude at the table.....

when I hear "how the f*** did you call with that s*** and hit your gutshot..... you idiot... your a fish etcetc....

simple reason ......... we want to play against bad players........... bad players play bad.... BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THEY DO..... dogs bark because it's what they do....... they call because calling is what bad players do...

don't try and change the nature of the beast....

a bad player should never be berated for playing bad..... it's like giving out to a dog for barking.....

I've seen it like the rest of you many times and it's not good for the game... On a general note the card rooms are going to have to come up with new ideas to get the player and more guarantees which is better for us all in the long run...

Ace2007

if ur sitting beside a dog that's barking all nite long - it will drive you mad.... fact

Requiem4adream

Ace2007 wrote: »

if ur sitting beside a dog that's barking all nite long - it will drive you mad.... fact

lol true....

Shooting the dog isnt the appropriate response (and might get you arrested!)....FACT!

ocallagh

ditpoker wrote: »

obviously you know where i think the fish have gone. I dont think they are catered for...

...we want to cut out the piss-up nature of events and make it more about the poker, if someone wants to get hammered, there is a bar area away from the poker table for that.

drink is a must have if you want to cater for 'value'

dannydiamond

ocallagh wrote: »

drink is a must have if you want to cater for 'value'

100% agree.
While I understand the 'poker high ground' i'm confused as to why poker Ireland would want to discourage drinking when the majority of their tournies are run on Sundays in hotels?
Sundays in hotels?
Sundays in hotels?
Sundays in hotels?

Ya get me on the general irish socialising philososphy thing?

carfax

dannydiamond wrote: »

100% agree.
While I understand the 'poker high ground' i'm confused as to why poker Ireland would want to discourage drinking when the majority of their tournies are run on Sundays in hotels?
Sundays in hotels?
Sundays in hotels?
Sundays in hotels?

Ya get me on the general irish socialising philososphy thing?

How did Poker Ireland get dragged into this?

Lots of tournament organisers use this rule so its not just us... ... At least you know when you come to one of my tournaments that the rule is very clear. If you want to drink you can do so away from the tables. If you want to play poker you can stay away from the bar If you want to drink and play poker at the same time you can do so at another tournament or stay home and play online.

I never want to discourage drinking and in general I try to mix drink with as many activities as possible, just not poker.

Cheers,
Stephen.

YULETIRED

and the ironic thing is fish actually don't drink...

The Tourist

YULETIRED wrote: »

and the ironic thing is fish actually don't drink...

I think you'll find that theory has been comprehensively refuted...

Beer-drinking ladyboy fish can live out of water

kakak1

ocallagh wrote: »

drink is a must have if you want to cater for 'value'

I'd be looking for a lot more from my poker

kakak1

dannydiamond wrote: »

While I understand the 'poker high ground' i'm confused as to why poker Ireland would want to discourage drinking when the majority of their tournies are run on Sundays in hotels?

tournaments are held in hotels because they can cater for crowds, space, drink & food. It doesn't mean players have to get pissed out of their minds & spoil poker for others. Sunday is also a day off for the majority of players.

bohsman

So because theres drink available people have to get pissed out of their minds?

dannydiamond

kakak1 wrote: »

tournaments are held in hotels because they can cater for crowds, space, drink & food. It doesn't mean players have to get pissed out of their minds & spoil poker for others. Sunday is also a day off for the majority of players.

I'm talking about the obvious social aspect for recreational players,not players getting 'pissed out of their minds' as you put it.

BTW Stephen not having a go at all,merely stating the obvious.

Conbro

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1438490562

Cheers for the link Willie thats awesome

kakak1

dannydiamond wrote: »

I'm talking about the obvious social aspect for recreational players,not players getting 'pissed out of their minds' as you put it.

BTW Stephen not having a go at all,merely stating the obvious.

Which is it Danny, you said you agree 100% with the statement

" drink is a must have if you want to cater for 'value'

carfax

dannydiamond wrote: »

BTW Stephen not having a go at all,merely stating the obvious.

No worries Danny, I hear ya.....I've just had too many problems at tournaments over the years where drink has been involved.

dannydiamond

kakak1 wrote: »

Which is it Danny, you said you agree 100% with the statement

" drink is a must have if you want to cater for 'value'

Alot of recreational players would like to have a drink,if this option is not available they may just spend their Sunday afternoon in the pub watching the football instead,therefore some of the 'value' is in the pub and not at the tables,obviously.

You seem to be doing very well Stephen,fair play,and I know where you're coming from, but there are other smaller hotel/pub games that wouldn't survive if players couldn't have a drink while playing.

THEIRISHMOB

Live cash poker id dead for a number of reasons in my opinion.

Economy is falling apart and there is not the disposable cash floating around for guys to gamble with any more.
Clubs for too long put there time and effort into running tournaments and keeping there "tournament players" happy, totally forgetting to look after there best customers, the ones that pay the bills and makes them there money...the cash players.
Internet offers "poker players" so much more: enter and leave any game u wish to play at any time for any stake you wish, and you dont need to listen to the **** from the guys that tell you where your going wrong in life..!

Ill give you an example: I get emails every day from online poker sites offering me sign-up bonuses and giving me rakeback along with many other offers to play with them.
Ive never got a email or text from any live venue about a cash game...plenty about tournaments but never about a cash game....!!!
Why keep banging on about TOURNAMENTS ....but yet the cash games are where 99% of there profit is from.... if I had a poker club I would be trying to keep my existing cash players and get some new ones in. Cash players are not valued (for some bizarre reason that is foreign to me).

Tournaments start at 8.30 so guys can have a game and go home and get up the following morning for work..cash games start at 10.30ish....too late in my opinion.

Just my 10cent worth.

Ace2007

THEIRISHMOB wrote: »

totally forgetting to look after there best customers, the ones that pay the bills and makes them there money...the cash players.

The majority of casino's don't make their money on cash players - They make all their money on the floor - they probably make more from tournament players on their break throwing money @ blackjack and roulette than the average joe playing cash games.........

jtsuited

surprised this hasn't been mentioned (maybe it has so if it has, apologies)-

over time a good player will turn a profit as the variance balances out etc.

the same is true of a bad player - after a while he won't be having too many profitable nights and will start to notice that he's just not that good and decides he'd rather spend the time getting hammered shouting at sports on the television.
He may have got lucky when he started playing and the idea that he was a good player came from a few lucky nights.

Problem is in Dublin, a huge proportion of the losing players have figured this out by now, and hence aren't playing.

BTW, The fitz freerolls used to bring in huge numbers of new players. While only a few would eventually start playing cash games (after they had busted out of the tournament they won a ticket in the freeroll for), there was always a supply of new players coming in.

I think it's fairly obvious that the money comes from the bottom of the foodchain so to speak, so rather than have bigger buyin tourney schedules, the cardrooms should run cheap tourneys and .50/.50 cash games (remember that on a Saturday afternoon in the fitz-them were the days) to turn a new generation of students into degenerates.
Worked on me (for a while).

edit: look at cardshark now, proper degenerate gambler. i remember his days on the fitz/merrion freeroll circuit!

THEIRISHMOB

Ace2007 wrote: »

The majority of casino's don't make their money on cash players - They make all their money on the floor - they probably make more from tournament players on their break throwing money @ blackjack and roulette than the average joe playing cash games.........

I was talking about poker clubs...........!!!!

phantom_lord

there's actually places that just have poker and no house games?

bohsman

THEIRISHMOB wrote: »

Live cash poker id dead

It is?

Ace2007

wow can't see how any club make money that have no house games - when taking into account wages etc

THEIRISHMOB

bohsman wrote: »

It is?

It is in the south-east...deffo totally

nicnicnic

THEIRISHMOB wrote: »

It is in the south-east...deffo totally

its not dead in wexford carlow, its dead in waterford because two whales that sustained the games for a number of years no longer do, now the rake is beating the nits

Conbro

two whales that sustained the games for a number of years no longer do,

Is that the two John's? Met them in Cork a couple of times donating vast sums of cash.

pocketdooz

Ace2007 wrote: »

The majority of casino's don't make their money on cash players - They make all their money on the floor - they probably make more from tournament players on their break throwing money @ blackjack and roulette than the average joe playing cash games.........

Despite what people believe and what is usually said , this is, in fact not true.

The Fitz and the Emporium (of old) make a fair % of their money from poker - up to €15,000 per week in revenue from cash games alone. This equates to roughly a quarter million in revenue annually. Then add on tournament rego's etc. and it turns into a healthy amount of revenue for the club.

Thus, I agree with IRISHMOB's point - cash game players are ignored relative to tournament players, even though they bring a considerable amount of wedge to the club.

eagle eye

From reading this forum over the last 18 to 24 months its clear that there were a lot of players who fancied themselves as top notch at poker. You had the guys who wanted bigger games with better structures so that they had a better chance of beating the fish. Along come the bigger buyins, better structures and the fish now plays one or two of these and decides its too tough, too drawn out and no fun anymore.
When I started playing tournaments there was a lot of fun at the tables, most players were chatty and friendly and could take a bad beat. I think Danny Diamond was the only one with an ipod at that stage:D but he did not wear it all the time. The good players have got so educated at the game now that a lot of them don't want to chat anymore but spend all their time watching the play for ranges, tells and betting patterns. While it makes them a little more successful its puttting off the average Joe from playing the game as its not at all sociable anymore.
I think thats why the cpt has survived so well (and I'm not a patron or a fan by any means), those running it know most of their customers by name and they will chat with them and make them feel welcome and have a bit of news for them as well.
In 2005 Poker events were running a weekly freezeout at a number of venues which cost roughly 100 euro to play in. They then had the big games which were costing 300-350 and then the main event in Dublin was 1k iirc. The next year they upped the big games to 500 and the main event to 1500, they upped the weekly games to 120 I think including reg. and they had less customers in all games from what I seen.
I don't think its got a lot to do with the recession but there is more money in the pockets of a lot of poker players who have made it good online and they want bigger games live but the average punter was happy with the smaller entry fee and now finds himself isolated. I know a lot of guys who used to play who would not go to a casino for fear of getting caught up in roulette, blackjack etc. and there are no weekly hotel games for them anymore. I don't know how JP is doing these days but I'd imagine he is still flying as he is catering for a section of the poker community that would have been interested in the poker event games when they were running.

CourierCollie

I think your all underestimating how serious this whole recession thing is for most peeps. I know for myself, I'm earning about €200 less per week than I was 2 months ago. Realistically that was about the amount I was comfortable losing for entertainment. Guess I'm just not as much of a degen as I so want to be.

jbravado

Fish are getting paid weekly these days. We will be back Friday. LOL monies imo.

bops

relax everybody, i'm just on my holidays ffs

cardshark202

what recession? lol poor people

kpnuts

Move down levels.