Live Sound Acoustic Distortion Issue

pinksoir

How do.

I play a classical (nylon string) guitar and I've had this ongoing problem of having the sound being fairly ****e when I'm playing live with the band. The problem lies with the fact that the guitar only really sounds good when it's run through an acoustic guitar amp. The guitar has a fishman pickup on it with the ability to have a blend between mic and pickup. The sound is much, much better through the microphone but the problem is the feedback I get. The sound from the pickup on its own is pretty poor - very twangy and plasticky sounding with little to no body to the sound.

The problem is further compounded when I run the guitar through a distortion pedal. Obviously the mic in the guitar is going to cause massive feedback and screeching. Ideally what I would like to do is run the guitar through two amplifiers (an acoustic and an electric) and get a blend of both in the front of house, with the emphasis on the electric amp for the distortion/bit of general dirt, and the acoustic amp for the clarity.

When I recorded the album I did this. We put it down virtually live, but the amps were in the dead room so obviously there was no issue of feedback.

So my question is this;
How would I replicate this live? Is there some sort of limiter I could put between the guitar and amp so I could still use even a little amount of the microphone in the guitar? What would be the best way to run the guitar through two amps? I have read that it's not advisable to run the guitar first into the acoustic amp and then from the line out of that into the electric amp, on account of it being a powered signal going into the electric amp.

How can I do this???

Any help is much appreciated...

cheers,
Karl.

PaulBrewer

Karl, you're trying to defy the laws of Physics I think .... and like Gravity, it'll always get you!

How's about something like -

http://www.godinguitars.com/godinacousticaster.htm

studiorat

Any use running the distortion from the fx loop on the amp?

pinksoir

Yeah... I know, I know...

But there MUST be some sort of way of doing it!

Also, that looks like a steel string guitar. The whole basis of the groups' 'sound' is the nylon string guitar. And as the strings aren't steel a pickup can't be used in the same way.

Presumably, if the amp was turned down really low and set as far away as possible from the guitar...

Or if the electric amp could be isolated somehow...

I'm racking my brains trying to think if anyone has done anything similar before and how they did it.

pinksoir

studiorat wrote: »

Any use running the distortion from the fx loop on the amp?

Hmmm. As in, straight into the desk, and not micing up the amp...?

That could work.

What about the front of house? Would the speakers go feedback mental when the distortion kicks in?

PaulBrewer

pinksoir wrote: »

Yeah... I know, I know...

But there MUST be some sort of way of doing it!

Also, that looks like a steel string guitar. The whole basis of the groups' 'sound' is the nylon string guitar. And as the strings aren't steel a pickup can't be used in the same way.

Presumably, if the amp was turned down really low and set as far away as possible from the guitar...

Or if the electric amp could be isolated somehow...

I'm racking my brains trying to think if anyone has done anything similar before and how they did it.

http://www.gibson.com/Products/GibsonElectric/Gibson%20Electric%20Guitars/Gibson%20USA%20SubPages/Discontinuted%20Models/Chet%20Atkins/Chet%20Atkins%20SST/

studiorat

pinksoir wrote: »

Hmmm. As in, straight into the desk, and not micing up the amp...?

That could work.

What about the front of house? Would the speakers go feedback mental when the distortion kicks in?

No I mean does the amp have an fx loop? Long shot but worth a try, you might get an extra few db out of it before the back feedin' starts.

pinksoir

studiorat wrote: »

No I mean does the amp have an fx loop? Long shot but worth a try, you might get an extra few db out of it before the back feedin' starts.

Alright. I've never used fx loop on an amp before, but does it go something like this?;

The sound from the guitar runs through different parts of the amp, input, then pre-amp, then tone controls, master volume and then speakers.

So the fx loop brings the distortion pedal, if I was using one in just beforethe speaker stage?

Would that make adifference though, as it would be essentially ust be putting the distortion in further down the chain, but still before the speaker which, presumably, is causing teh feedback from the mic...

Would running the amp directly into the desk, without micing it up, stop the feedback at all? Obviously I wouldn't run it through the monitors or anything...

Or would that sound shiite?

fitz

It's gonna sound pants.
Have you tried a feedback buster?
Even some paper taped over the soundhole?

pinksoir

Yup. That was the first thing I tried.

fitz

Then it's down to your stage levels, or the positioning of the mic, or a combination of the two.

ogy

what mic are you using? presuming some sort of dynamic.

i know its primarily a vocal mic but maybe try something like an audix om7, higher gain before feedback than most mics.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/audix_om7_vocalmikrofon.htm

Savman

pinksoir wrote: »

I play a classical (nylon string) guitar

pinksoir wrote:

The problem is further compounded when I run the guitar through a distortion pedal.

:eek:

I can't think of any quick fix tbh, you're gonna have to try a multitude of configrations like those mentioned already.

pinksoir wrote:

When I recorded the album I did this.

See therein lies the problem, studio rules and live rules are a million miles apart.

pinksoir

Savman wrote: »

:eek:

I can't think of any quick fix tbh, you're gonna have to try a multitude of configrations like those mentioned already.

See therein lies the problem, studio rules and live rules are a million miles apart.

Oh yeah, i know that. Believe me I know!!

I'm gonna try as many different things as I can. I know a good few sound engineers too and I'll get them to give me a hand.

I just wanna get as much help as I can really.

studiorat

instead of a distortion pedal you could try something like a POD.

Savman

Well off the top of my head, the technique you use will be determined by what your intended effect is. The first thing that springs to mind is to simply DI or Mic up the acoustic in the best most practical way possible and to run the Distortion thru a separate channel, either DI'd or mic'd or whatever.

The inherent problem here is that when you press the distortion pedal, the acoustic sound doesn't go away so all you're really doing is double tracking. This is also assuming the FOH engineer is competent to make sure both work together. A big onus also falls onto you to make sure you have your sh*t together with your general output levels of the clean + dirty signals respectively. Remember, Sound 'Engineer' not Sound 'Healer'

The second option is to run the Acoustic thru the distortion then onward to the DI/amp and thru to the PA. This means that the original acoustic sound drops as soon as you depress the pedal, pretty much the way most electric guitar pedal signals work. Distortion on/off.

It's all about the levels, they have to be spot on for this work live without causing some kind of unwanted noise or squeal. IMHO, better to have no fancy FX than one that causes feedback...but I would say that

fitz

Ah, I hadn't spotted that it was going through an amp.
Tbh, if it only sounds good through an amp, you're wasting your time.
What I said about stage sound still applies. I thought you were just having difficulty with the distortion coming back through the monitor.
Go invest in a guitar that sounds good through a DI. Then you won't have a distorted guitar amp causing the mic part of the Fishman system to feed back, all you'll need to do is check your distorted sound for feedback from the monitor.
As it stands, you probably shouldn't be getting feedback anyway. Sounds to me like you've probably got your amp turned up way too loud on stage, or you don't know your distortion pedal well enough.

If it was me, I'd fix at source. If the guitar doesn't sound good with a good pickup/mic blending system straight into a DI, the guitar needs to go.

pinksoir

@Studiorat:

Yeah, I'm not really sure if soemthing like a POD would work. i've run teh guitar through multi fx before. A POD is just a preamp with effects, no?

@Savman:

Yeah, the second option is how I have been doing it all along.

The guitar has a fishman pickup with blend, one of these babies: http://www.ourlifeanew.com/guitars/Fishman%20Prefix.jpg

The trouble really comes through when I use the blend to get the sound from the mic because the line sound on its own isn't very good, nylon strings and all. It's the mic inside the guitar which causes the squeeking/feedback.

Option 2, though:

So you are saying to run the distortion pedal (DI it even) straight to the desk and to use it as a seperate channel...?

This could work. One of the good things about my distortion pedal is the fact that I can blend it with the direct sound from the guitar, a blend between clean and dirty when the pedal is pressed.

http://www.stevesmusiccenter.com/VoodooLabSparkleDriveBig.jpg

So where in the chain would I place the distortion pedal? Run the guitar into a DI box, then one output of the DI box into an amp, and the other into the distortion? Mic up the amp and run teh distortion straight into the desk? Essentially double tracking the two?

When the pedal is bypassed (depressed) it would be the clean guitar sound, direct from the DI box, so when the distortion was pressed it would be important to not have the level too high. I suppose this could be dealt with with the clean blend on the pedal.

However, i have a feeling that the sound direct, without going through a preamp/speaker/amp from the distortion would be crap...

pinksoir

fitz wrote: »

Ah, I hadn't spotted that it was going through an amp.
Tbh, if it only sounds good through an amp, you're wasting your time.
What I said about stage sound still applies. I thought you were just having difficulty with the distortion coming back through the monitor.
Go invest in a guitar that sounds good through a DI. Then you won't have a distorted guitar amp causing the mic part of the Fishman system to feed back, all you'll need to do is check your distorted sound for feedback from the monitor.
As it stands, you probably shouldn't be getting feedback anyway. Sounds to me like you've probably got your amp turned up way too loud on stage, or you don't know your distortion pedal well enough.

If it was me, I'd fix at source. If the guitar doesn't sound good with a good pickup/mic blending system straight into a DI, the guitar needs to go.

I think you aren't understanding my problem correctly. My guitar sounds great through DI, great through an amp, great on it's own, unamplified. The pickup I have on the guitar has both direct line and mic pickups in it and I can blend the two.

The guitar doesn't sound very good when the blend is set to direct line pickup only. So I prefer to use as much of the mic pickup as I can. I never get feedback when I use it like this, clean.

The problem arises when I run the guitar through a distortion pedal and have the guitar's pickup blended. If I set the pickup to direct line there is no distortion at all. If I blend it even a little bit with the mic then the amp starts to feed back. So I am trying to find out how i can limit this feed back.

That's all. I don't need a new guitar! I know how to use my effects pedal!

ogy

i can't imagine it would be too difficult to get a mod done on your guitar giving you a second jack output which comes directly from the pickup only? that way you would have two outputs (like on a godin or something), one would be the original with the clean sound set as desired, the other would be the pickup sound only. Connect the pickup signal to the distortion pedal, then get a line selector and use that to switch between the mixed output from the guitar and the output of the distortion pedal. this might seem like a bit of hassle but would pretty much give you what you want right and i don't think it would be too expensive?

pinksoir

Do you know what? That sounds like it would work. I'd say it would be far and away the easiest way to do it too. I could even run the mixed line (mic and line blend) from the guitar to an acoustic amp, and the line only straight into an electric guitar amp!

Seems like the way to go.

Thanks man.

Anyone recommend anyone who could do the mod?

fitz

I don't get it.
I'm familiar with the Fishman and how it works.
If it sounds good clean, DI'd, then just put the pedal between the guitar and DI.
You don't need to run the guitar through an onstage amp just cause you're using a distortion pedal.
I run a Lowden through a Mesa Bottle Rocket straight to a DI. I still reckon it's your monitor/onstage sound you need to address.

ogy

I don't get it.

the pickup has an internal mic and a pickup which can be blended.

when the mic output is distorted it produces feedback, with the blend set to pickup only it doesn't feedback. makes sense! i wouldn't question the guitar quality, classical nylon guitar pickups are not made to be distorted.

pinksoir

ogy wrote: »

the pickup has an internal mic and a pickup which can be blended.

when the mic output is distorted it produces feedback, with the blend set to pickup only it doesn't feedback. makes sense! i wouldn't question the guitar quality, classical nylon guitar pickups are not made to be distorted.

Exactly. It's not made to be distorted. It's a €1500 guitar, the build quality is top notch. The sound from it is top notch too. It's just when it is run through a distortion pedal with the blend set to MIC it feeds back.

fitz

I know exactly how the mic/piezo blend works.
I understand what's happening, I just don't get why it's such a big problem.
The mic is feeding back cause the mic is picking up the distorted sound.
That sound is either coming from your monitor or amp. Reduce the volume of those, you should reduce the feedback. If the clean sound is good with a mic piezo blend, then your clean sound is sorted. Why are you running it into an amp?
Just run it through a DI and reduce your onstage sound so the mic doesn't feed back.

Seriously, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills...:P

pinksoir

Because the sound that I am going for with the guitar requires a bit of dirt from an electric amp, like a Fender Blues Deluxe or some such. I much prefer the sound of it running through an amp. That's why I am running through an amp. I have tried turning the amp down. I have tried turning the monitors down. It only feeds back when I run it through a distortion pedal, driving the sound. The very nature of distortion is to drive the source, it will always feedback if you turn a mic up too loud near it's speaker, it's physics, like PaulBrewer said earlier.

Also, I'm playing with a band. I can't have the volume too low or else I can't hear myself.

Aaaanyways I think what ogy suggested earlier should work. i just gotta try and find a guy who can do it... Don't fancy wrecking my guitar myself!!

fitz

Fair enough.
Re-reading ogy's post, I had a thought....is it a Rare Earth?
If so, it should take a stereo jack, so all you need is a lead with a stereo jack at one end that splits into two mono jacks the other end.

You'd need to split the pickup signal in two. You could use then use a little mixer to sum one of the pickup signals with the mic signal to a mono out, and plug that into line selector, and from there into a DI. Plug the other pickup signal into the lineslector and off to the amp via the distortion pedal. Leave the distortion pedal on, and then your line selector becomes the on switch for the distorted sound.

That's about the only way you're gonna get it done I'd say. You need a line selector and a splitter. It's not an ideal signal path really, I'd say you'll be losing tone.

Before doing that, try repositioning the mic to reduce bass, the manual should give pointers. That might reduce the feedback.

But either way, if it's feeding back that easily, I'd look at the onstage levels for you and the rest of the band.

studiorat

As I understand it a POD is an amp simulator as opposed to just upping an analog gain stage.

So hopefully you aren't gonna get a huge rise in sensitivity the same as you would get with a distortion pedal. This was my thinking when suggesting the pedal across a line level rather than instrument level ie the fx loop...

I use a re-amping kit for running stuff back from tape through an amp. It basically matches the impedance so the amp thinks theres a guitar plugged in rather than a line level. Maybe something like this across an insert on a channel on the desk would work as well.

The guy from Grant Lee Buffalo used to use an acoustic through a fender twin or similar. I reckon an extra pickup straight to amp only could work too!

pinksoir

fitz wrote: »

Fair enough.
Re-reading ogy's post, I had a thought....is it a Rare Earth?
If so, it should take a stereo jack, so all you need is a lead with a stereo jack at one end that splits into two mono jacks the other end.

You'd need to split the pickup signal in two. You could use then use a little mixer to sum one of the pickup signals with the mic signal to a mono out, and plug that into line selector, and from there into a DI. Plug the other pickup signal into the lineslector and off to the amp via the distortion pedal. Leave the distortion pedal on, and then your line selector becomes the on switch for the distorted sound.

That's about the only way you're gonna get it done I'd say. You need a line selector and a splitter. It's not an ideal signal path really, I'd say you'll be losing tone.

Before doing that, try repositioning the mic to reduce bass, the manual should give pointers. That might reduce the feedback.

But either way, if it's feeding back that easily, I'd look at the onstage levels for you and the rest of the band.

Aha. What your saying is that it could be in stereo already, ie. direct line is L and mic is R, which are then blended, but when it comes through an amp usually it's mono, on account of the amp being mono...

So presumably if it was split from stereo into two mono outputs, one should represent line, the other mic. And I could just run one into each amp.

Or did I pick you up wrong?

pinksoir

studiorat wrote: »

As I understand it a POD is an amp simulator as opposed to just upping an analog gain stage.

So hopefully you aren't gonna get a huge rise in sensitivity the same as you would get with a distortion pedal. This was my thinking when suggesting the pedal across a line level rather than instrument level ie the fx loop...

I use a re-amping kit for running stuff back from tape through an amp. It basically matches the impedance so the amp thinks theres a guitar plugged in rather than a line level. Maybe something like this across an insert on a channel on the desk would work as well.

The guy from Grant Lee Buffalo used to use an acoustic through a fender twin or similar. I reckon an extra pickup straight to amp only could work too!

I think I'm gonna try the extra pickup thing. Mod my fishman...

dav nagle

Have you tried putting the guitar into something small like a dirty pig nose guitar amp? You know the ones that the buskers use. They are real dirty but small. From there you could mic up the amp in a live situation without any feedback? Maybe a compressor pedal might help or a decimator pedal?

pinksoir

I did think of that. Some of those amps sound really sweet. I'd still need to split the signal though, to run it into an acoustic amp too. I suppose that's easy enough though, DI box would do that.

You reckon it wouldn't feed back so much...

They do tend to be trebley enough anyway, and it's the bass that causes the feedback, so it might be just the ticket... Would look cool too!

dav nagle

pinksoir wrote: »

I did think of that. Some of those amps sound really sweet. I'd still need to split the signal though, to run it into an acoustic amp too. I suppose that's easy enough though, DI box would do that.

You reckon it wouldn't feed back so much...

They do tend to be trebley enough anyway, and it's the bass that causes the feedback, so it might be just the ticket... Would look cool too!

Best of luck with it

pinksoir

Thanks, I'm gonna need it.

Cheers everyone for your help anyway. i have afew different angles to work from now...