why is it so hard to have someone commited in ireland

gordon_gekko

i know this is an unusual topic to bring up but you know how you sometimes hear about someone having been murdered by some crazy person who just randomly attacked them , im not talking about an attack by a gourier , i mean an attack by someone who claimed the devil told them to do it
how come theese people were walking free , in the uk the police have the power to section people if they are acting peculiar , we all know people who should be locked up , i have a cousin who has made life hell for his family for nearly 20 years yet when his mother asked a psychiatricst if her son could be incarcerated , she was told , you have to baschically kill someone in this country before they lock you up

why is this the case , is it that the liberals have gotten all there way , i know that years ago people were sent to the big house simply because they were an embarrassment to there familys in many cases and this was wrong but i think the pendelum has swung to the opposite extreme now , it seems the crazy person has all the rights at the expense of the general public , i recall a story about a year ago how a young man from the midlands was up in dublin for his cousins stag party , he was making his way back to a friends appartment he was staying in when out of nowhere a man attacked him with a garden rake or something and stabbed him 91 times to death , when arrested by the police , the nutcase stated he had killed the devil , now i for one do not believe that no one knew this person was a danger to society , my guess is he had been a ticking time bomb and it was only a matter of time before a tragedy happend

Victor

Incareration isn't necessarily useful and merely aides marginalisation and is not helpful to the ill person. It merely creates institutionalised people unable to care for themselves or live in society.

Many of the 'nutcases' on our streets are otherwise normal looking people until they get their poison of choice on board. I imagine main-stream substance abusers are much more of a problem than people with non-self induced mental health issues.

gordon_gekko

Victor wrote: »

Incareration isn't necessarily useful and merely aides marginalisation and is not helpful to the ill person. It merely creates institutionalised people unable to care for themselves or live in society.

Many of the 'nutcases' on our streets are otherwise normal looking people until they get their poison of choice on board. I imagine main-stream substance abusers are much more of a problem than people with non-self induced mental health issues.

who said anything about drugs or alcohol, my cousin has never taken drugs in his life and drinks very little also , he had a bad accident when he was 5 and suffered a brain injury
your point about commiting the person results in them being marginialised cements my point , the crazy persons rights are protected at the expense of the greater good

mumhaabu

I'd say the reason it is so hard is it was once so easy.

Women were committed for "immoral acts", men for questioning authority. I know of one person who was committed to a mental hospital because he stood up and heckled a fianna fail speech outside a church during the 1960's. It was decades before my time but it is still spoken of by my parents and it was held as a grudge against the said politician for years, as it was the politician had the poor guy committed and his opposition candidate of FG had him released and subsequently got him a job. Ireland was a dangerous place in the past.

irish_bob

mumhaabu wrote: »

I'd say the reason it is so hard is it was once so easy.

Women were committed for "immoral acts", men for questioning authority. I know of one person who was committed to a mental hospital because he stood up and heckled a fianna fail speech outside a church during the 1960's. It was decades before my time but it is still spoken of by my parents and it was held as a grudge against the said politician for years, as it was the politician had the poor guy committed and his opposition candidate of FG had him released and subsequently got him a job. Ireland was a dangerous place in the past.

sounds like your agreeing with the op,s point that the pendelum has swung to the opposite extreme when you say its so hard now cause it used to be so easy
you also claim ireland used to be a dangerous place in the past , surely its just as dangerous now with mentally disturbed people on the loose

nacho libre

as awful as that case you mentioned was, it was thank goodness, an isolated incident. that's no comfort to those he left behind, but if what you're proposing was implemented there could be many people who are mentally ill who would be locked up indefinitely based on fear and sacremongering among the public. i don't think that should be allowed to happen.The fact is there are many people who are considered a potential risk living in the community who do no harm to anyone. They deserve to have their rights protected too. I do agree that if someone who has a history of mental illness starts talking about killing people and is generally acting violent they should be held immediately based on the word of a psychiastrist.

gordon_gekko

nacho libre wrote: »

as awful as that case you mentioned was, it was thank goodness, an isolated incident. that's no comfort to those he left behind, but if what you're proposing was implemented there could be many people who are mentally ill who would be locked up indefinitely based on fear and sacremongering among the public. i don't think that should be allowed to happen.The fact is there are many people who are considered a potential risk living in the community who do no harm to anyone. They deserve to have their rights protected too. I do agree that if someone who has a history of mental illness starts talking about killing people and is generally acting violent they should be held immediately based on the word of a psychiastrist.

the problem is unless someone is willing themselves to be commited , they cannot be locked up unless they more or less gravely hurt somone , your point that what happend that young man from the midlands being an isolated incident is so far off the mark , i dont know where to start,remember that guy from galway who killed a mother , her child and a priest in the early 90,s , my uncle lives not that far from where that happend , that guy who comited those acts was a ticking time bomb, he was notorious , i mentioned my cousin who has made his familys life hell for yrs now , he talks about killing half the people on his block almost every day of the week , his mum is beside herself yet she has been told that there is nothing that can be done unless he is willing to seek help himself

nacho libre

gordon_gekko wrote: »

the problem is unless someone is willing themselves to be commited , they cannot be locked up unless they more or less gravely hurt somone , your point that what happend that young man from the midlands being an isolated incident is so far off the mark , i dont know where to start,remember that guy from galway who killed a mother , her child and a priest in the early 90,s , my uncle lives not that far from where that happend , that guy who comited those acts was a ticking time bomb, he was notorious , i mentioned my cousin who has made his familys life hell for yrs now , he talks about killing half the people on his block almost every day of the week , his mum is beside herself yet she has been told that there is nothing that can be done unless he is willing to seek help himself

yes, in such cases the rights of society should take precedent - if it is the opinion of a psychiatrist that the person presents an immediate threat or grave danger to society.
I honesty don't believe i'm way off the mark in saying that incidences of people who are mentally ill commiting murder are not all that common. I wonder if we analysed the murder stats for the past decade how many of the killings were carried out by someone who was disturbed.

Zombrex

gordon_gekko wrote: »

the problem is unless someone is willing themselves to be commited , they cannot be locked up unless they more or less gravely hurt somone

That isn't true

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/health/mental-health/admission_to_a_psychiatric_hospital

I'm not quite sure what the point of this thread is but there seems to be a whole load of wild accusations and generalistions and very little facts or evidence.

gordon_gekko wrote: »

i mentioned my cousin who has made his familys life hell for yrs now , he talks about killing half the people on his block almost every day of the week , his mum is beside herself yet she has been told that there is nothing that can be done unless he is willing to seek help himself

Well who ever told her that is lying to her.

She can make an application to a registered medical practitioner seeking to have the person in question (her son) involuntarily admitted to a State psychiatric hospital, stating why the person should be admitted and her relationship to the person.

I think a statement to the effect that he goes around stating he is going to kill a load of people would get their attention.

Her son will be assess and if it is determined he is suffering from a mental disorder he will be admitted. He doesn't have to be violent nor does he have to have committed violence against another person.

Victor

gordon_gekko wrote: »

he talks about killing half the people on his block almost every day of the week

Thats a little like a politician promising to fix potholes.

the_syco

Plenty of crazies just go mad. Some have mental illnesses, but some get triggered, and do mad stuff. Sometimes drink and drugs are an influence, sometimes it's because the person "isn't all there".

Belfast

like most problems in Ireland we prefer to ignore them.

In the past it was too easy to get people locked in a mental hospital and many people were sent to mental hospital who should not have been there.

now it is too hard if not impossible.

irish_bob

Belfast wrote: »

like most problems in Ireland we prefer to ignore them.

In the past it was too easy to get people locked in a mental hospital and many people were sent to mental hospital who should not have been there.

now it is too hard if not impossible.

its not politically correct to admit that somone is a nutcase , the liberals control policy on this one , as was said earlier , the pendelum was completly swung to the other extreme
there may indeed be powers that can rule that someone needs to be commited , they are never enforced though as its assumed some lawyer will apeal whatever ruling is made

Victor

irish_bob wrote: »

the liberals control policy on this one

So you would prefer lots of people in institutions, to their and their families detriment, costing the state a fortune?

its assumed some lawyer will apeal whatever ruling is made

If someone is held against there will it is perfectly reasonable for some to act as advocate for them. Indeed, I understand the new act provides for this and a presumption to release, not a presumption to hold.

vibe666

that guy a few months back who stabbed some poor sod to death in the entrance to an apartment block did it outside the door of some friends of mine. We'd been out that might with them and they were not long home when it happened. They were very drunk at the time and slept thru the whole thing but could have easily have come home later on and walked into that and neither would have been able to defend themselves and 1 murder could easily have been 3. I seen to remember that that guy had asked to be locked up the day before and was refused. I wonder if they locked him up after that?

irish_bob

Victor wrote: »

So you would prefer lots of people in institutions, to their and their families detriment, costing the state a fortune?

If someone is held against there will it is perfectly reasonable for some to act as advocate for them. Indeed, I understand the new act provides for this and a presumption to release, not a presumption to hold.

the familys of headcases are the ones who would want the looper locked up the most i would have thought , besides its silly to think people would get locked up for trivial behaviour

Victor

Can we use some decorum please?

Black Swan

Victor wrote: »

Incareration isn't necessarily useful and merely aides marginalisation and is not helpful to the ill person. It merely creates institutionalised people unable to care for themselves or live in society.

Agree. There should be alternatives to help these people rather than warehousing them in some institution away from us so called "normal" people.

Certainly there are extreme cases that may need comprehensive treatment, that may require pharmacological remedies too, but the goal should be to someday restore them to community, provided they are not at risk to themselves or others.

Further, who decides that your freedom should be taken from you? I know of an older, retired woman who was a bit eccentric in her later years, but no harm to anyone, including herself, who was institutionalised by her son. By institutionalising her, he also got control of her wealth, which he now greatly enjoys spending on himself while she has lost her freedom. Apparently he couldn't wait for her to die?

Zombrex

irish_bob wrote: »

its not politically correct to admit that somone is a nutcase , the liberals control policy on this one , as was said earlier , the pendelum was completly swung to the other extreme

Wait, I though "mental illness" was an invention by liberals to get everyone out of having to be blamed or take responsibility for their crimes.

Ah, you murdered that women, poor thing you must be suffering from mental illness, can't blame you, we better take you way and put you in a nice hospital with colour TV.

Those damn liberals, burning the candle at both ends, just when it looks like it isn't the liberals it turns out it is the liberals. They are freaking everywhere!

irish_bob wrote: »

there may indeed be powers that can rule that someone needs to be commited , they are never enforced though as its assumed some lawyer will apeal whatever ruling is made

They are never enforced? Interesting.

You know that because you are a health care professional working the area of mental illness?

Zombrex

irish_bob wrote: »

there may indeed be powers that can rule that someone needs to be commited , they are never enforced though as its assumed some lawyer will apeal whatever ruling is made

Never let it be said Irish Bob that you let facts and figures get in the way of your posts

http://www.irishhealth.com/index.html?level=4&id=13991

You will notice from that article that 11% percent of applications for non-voluntary admittance were revoked. Not exactly everyone getting out now is it?

Although I'm curious about your feelings on people who are essentially locked up even though they are not a danger to themselves or others. You approve of that do you?

irish_bob

Wicknight wrote: »

Wait, I though "mental illness" was an invention by liberals to get everyone out of having to be blamed or take responsibility for their crimes.

Ah, you murdered that women, poor thing you must be suffering from mental illness, can't blame you, we better take you way and put you in a nice hospital with colour TV.

Those damn liberals, burning the candle at both ends, just when it looks like it isn't the liberals it turns out it is the liberals. They are freaking everywhere!



They are never enforced? Interesting.

You know that because you are a health care professional working the area of mental illness?

mental illness is a very broad term , the op mentioned his cousin suffered a head injury in a car accident as a kid
he thus doesnt have an illness as such but permanent brain damage presumably
its all well and good taking the high moral ground and declaring that we should all live just get along but tell that to the relatives of that guy from down the county who was brutally murdered when up for a weekend in dublin about 6 mths ago , i distinctly remember that case on the news , the guy who did it told the cops the devil told him to do it
that story about the old ecentric woman who probably kept 27 yr old cans of beans in her kitchen and her son commited her , those things shouldnt happen and i suspect rarely do , there not the kind of cases im talking about

irish_bob

Wicknight wrote: »

Never let it be said Irish Bob that you let facts and figures get in the way of your posts

http://www.irishhealth.com/index.html?level=4&id=13991

You will notice from that article that 11% percent of applications for non-voluntary admittance were revoked. Not exactly everyone getting out now is it?

Although I'm curious about your feelings on people who are essentially locked up even though they are not a danger to themselves or others. You approve of that do you?

i dont believe that happens

Victor

There are still thousands of cases of people who pose no risk to the community in mental hospitals, most of them geriatric or learning difficulty cases.

Surely abusive alcoholics should be in mental hospitals, not them.

Zombrex

irish_bob wrote: »

those things shouldnt happen and i suspect rarely do , there not the kind of cases im talking about

what? you are talking about the much more common murders of country folk by mentally ill people?

Zombrex

irish_bob wrote: »

i dont believe that happens

you don't believe what happens? That people seek non-voluntary commitment for people who shouldn't be locked away?

The statistics demonstrate it does happen. It isn't up for debate. I'm asking you how do you feel about it.

the_syco

irish_bob wrote: »

that story about the old ecentric woman who probably kept 27 yr old cans of beans in her kitchen and her son commited her , those things shouldnt happen and i suspect rarely do , there not the kind of cases im talking about

I smell bullsh|t. Provide links to support these wild stores of yours.

irish_bob

the_syco wrote: »

I smell bullsh|t. Provide links to support these wild stores of yours.

scroll back up , someone else made refference to an old lady who,s son had her commited so he could get hold of her money , i was pointing out that i dont agree with someone being commited for ecentric behaviour , the bit about the beans was an add on

oh and wickiknight , i never said people dont seek non voluntary incarcaration for others , what i dont believe is that there are people in 2008 who are commited for no valid reason , i believe the complete opposite is the case , i believe there are people who are a known danger to society who nothing is done about

Zombrex

irish_bob wrote: »

oh and wickiknight , i never said people dont seek non voluntary incarcaration for others , what i dont believe is that there are people in 2008 who are commited for no valid reason , i believe the complete opposite is the case , i believe there are people who are a known danger to society who nothing is done about

Well what you believe is rather here nor there Bob, you don't seem to be able to back up what you are saying and the statistics I've seen contradict your beliefs.