[PR] Cyclists Welcome Continuing Ban on Motorbikes Use of Bus Lanes

Victor

.

Cyclists Welcome Continuing Ban on Motorbike Riders Use of Bus Lanes

Date: 28 July 2008. For immediate use.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign welcomes the Road Safety Authority's recent announcement that it cannot recommend the opening up of bus/cycle lanes to motorbike use.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign has never agreed with the use by some motor bike riders of bus/cycle lanes. A general and unwarranted assumption has been made by too many motor bike riders that it is permissible to ride in bus/cycle lanes and there seems to be no Garda action to enforce the existing legal ban. [see SI No. 182 of 1997. Section 32. (2).]

The Campaign now calls on the Garda to enforce Section 32 of the road traffic regulations No. 182 of 1997 where only omnibuses and bicycles are permitted legally to be in a bus/cycle lane. Taxis are permitted to use these lanes only while on business – that is with the meter operational and a fare present.

This also should mean that action will be taken against taxi drivers who are driving in a bus/cycle lane without a fare on board and the meter operational. A recent survey conducted by this Campaign determined that 56% of taxis in the bus/cycle lane in Pearse Street had no passenger present.

There are too many vehicles using bus/cycle lanes where the driver is overtaking cyclists too close (failing to leave a separation distance of a least 1.5 m) and too fast. This intimidates cyclists.

If this society is to meet its Kyoto transport greenhouse gas reduction targets more commuters are going to have to abandon their cars and take up cycling to work, college and school. Riders need to feel safe on urban roads and in bus/cycle lanes.

ENDS

cyclopath2001

They're welcome to use this picture to illustrate the point about enforcement:

FrankGrimes

Good to hear but I think they should also be focusing on the design of the cycle lanes. I find most cycle lanes that are in off the road are very dangerous to the cyclist and are biased towards motorists. Why should a cyclist have to yield to every minor road/housing estate coming in from their left and then get back up to speed manually when the cars could just as easily be told to yield before the cycle lane instead of on it?

ChipPanBuddha

Sunday afternoon drive, Blackrock-Booterstown Cycle Lane/Pedestrian Path.:cool:

snollup

I happen to both ride a bicycle & drive a vespa. I disagree and fell that it is much safer for motorbikes to use bus (not cycle) lanes as is the case in most of europe I have been told. you go on about the environment yet dont seem to have an issue with taxis being aloud use them. sorry my friends but with that argument you do not convince. regarding taxis and their allowed use of them, it's pathetic.

lukester

As a daily cyclist and motorbike rider, I'm in favour of motorbikes being allowed to use bus lanes, although it sounds like this press release is mainly concerned with cycle lanes- they refer to 'bus/cycle lanes'. I would distinguish between the two, and I'd certainly be in favour of enforcing the proper use of cycle lanes.

snollup

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Good to hear but I think they should also be focusing on the design of the cycle lanes. I find most cycle lanes that are in off the road are very dangerous to the cyclist and are biased towards motorists. Why should a cyclist have to yield to every minor road/housing estate coming in from their left and then get back up to speed manually when the cars could just as easily be told to yield before the cycle lane instead of on it?

+1

Caroline_ie

ChipPanBuddha wrote: »

Sunday afternoon drive, Blackrock-Booterstown Cycle Lane/Pedestrian Path.:cool:

Did you show the Garda? I know I would.

snollup

ChipPanBuddha wrote: »

Sunday afternoon drive, Blackrock-Booterstown Cycle Lane/Pedestrian Path.:cool:

man in a very fcuked up way you really have to admire this lad.

ChipPanBuddha

snollup wrote: »

I regarding taxis and their allowed use of them, it's pathetic.

Yes, I'm beginning to wonder should taxis be allowed to use bus lanes at all. I'm not sure what the idea behind it is. Is it to encourage people to use taxis, which are classed as "public transport" and be rewarded with getting from A to B that bit faster? Taxis might be deemed to be public transport but a Merc with a taxi plate in a bus lane is just as gas guzzling as the Merc beside it in the normal lane. Maybe the theory is that people will share a taxi and cut down on several cars being on the road but I don't think this happens in reality. Most taxis I see on the road during daytime will have one or two passengers. The only time people really share taxis is late at night, coming home from a pub or club, at a time when the benefits/rewards of getting the use of a bus lane do not really apply.

ChipPanBuddha

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Did you show the Garda? I know I would.

I was going to put this down to plain stupidity on the part of the 2 people involved (middle aged couple). They looked like they had taken a wrong turn and were more or less creeping along. Not exactly boy racers. But I've shown it to several people who've said I should really report it. I was checking out the access to the cycle lane from the actual road and it looks like they drove quite a long way to take this wrong turn! What would people reckon, should I report it to the guards or traffic watch on the off chance that the driver gets a gentle ticking off? It was last Sunday week so would it be too late to report it at this stage? The date and time will be on the camera.

DirkVoodoo

Whats even more amazing is how that Micra got there in the first place???

cyclopath2001

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Whats even more amazing is how that Micra got there in the first place???

I can't see any surface markings indicating a 'cycle track'?

311

ChipPanBuddha wrote: »

Sunday afternoon drive, Blackrock-Booterstown Cycle Lane/Pedestrian Path.:cool:

Thats ridiculous ,they're not even driving on the right side of the road!!!

blorg

To be honest I would not have a problem with motorbikes using bus lanes. Cycle lanes, obviously no. In my experience most motorcyclists are courteous and careful when overtaking, more so than cars, there will always of course be the exceptions.

311

I think the biggest cause of problems is comfort zones, the more comfortable the car the more ignorant the driver. Mercedes drivers are probably the worst.

Victor

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Good to hear but I think they should also be focusing on the design of the cycle lanes. I find most cycle lanes that are in off the road are very dangerous to the cyclist and are biased towards motorists. Why should a cyclist have to yield to every minor road/housing estate coming in from their left and then get back up to speed manually when the cars could just as easily be told to yield before the cycle lane instead of on it?

Different argument.

ChipPanBuddha wrote: »

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p20/owenellard/P1010303.jpg Sunday afternoon drive, Blackrock-Booterstown Cycle Lane/Pedestrian Path.:cool:

Report to park warden, I think.

snollup wrote: »

I happen to both ride a bicycle & drive a vespa. I disagree and fell that it is much safer for motorbikes to use bus (not cycle) lanes as is the case in most of europe I have been told.

In the UK, most of the people killed in bike lanes are .... motorcyclists. In Ireland a huge number of motorcyclist deaths are in rural, not urban, areas. 24 rural, 7 urban in 2006 (39 to 17 in 2005) - table 24 here: http://www.rsa.ie/publication/publication/upload/RSA_RCF_2006_v7.pdf

The problem with bus lanes is the inappropriate speed at which which motorcyclists pass cyclists in close proximity. During the week, I was doing about 25km/h on my bike in a 50km/h bus lane, with general traffic going slightly faster than me in the traffic lane. A motorcyclist zoomed up between use at 60-70km/h.

you go on about the environment yet dont seem to have an issue with taxis being aloud use them. sorry my friends but with that argument you do not convince. regarding taxis and their allowed use of them, it's pathetic.

Taxis aren't welcome in bus lanes either. While it might have made sense 10 years ago, it doesn't make sense now with there being more than enough taxis to go around.

fish-head

311 wrote: »

I think the biggest cause of problems is comfort zones, the more comfortable the car the more ignorant the driver. Mercedes drivers are probably the worst.

That's a ridiculous statement.

I've no problems with bikers using the bus lanes to be honest. They've got a lot of crap to deal with on the roads and as a cyclist I can identify with that.

snollup

Victor wrote: »

Different argument.

Report to park warden, I think.

In the UK, most of the people killed in bike lanes are .... motorcyclists. In Ireland a huge number of motorcyclist deaths are in rural, not urban, areas. 24 rural, 7 urban in 2006 (39 to 17 in 2005) - table 24 here: http://www.rsa.ie/publication/publication/upload/RSA_RCF_2006_v7.pdf

The problem with bus lanes is the inappropriate speed at which which motorcyclists pass cyclists in close proximity. During the week, I was doing about 25km/h on my bike in a 50km/h bus lane, with general traffic going slightly faster than me in the traffic lane. A motorcyclist zoomed up between use at 60-70km/h.

Taxis aren't welcome in bus lanes either. While it might have made sense 10 years ago, it doesn't make sense now with there being more than enough taxis to go around.

I agree with you. MB's should be driving at a appropriate speed, no matter what lane there in. You stats are interesting but this obviously this is about urban. I believe it to be safer for mb's to use bus lanes (driving responsibility of course) where available.

311

fish-head wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement.

I don't think so to be honest ,of all the times I've been cut off on the road and just plain ignored ,80% were fat mercedes drivers.

dogmatix

"Gardai to enforce continuing ban"? Kinda pointless as we all know the guards will pay as much attention to enforcing this ban as they do with mobile phone usage in cars.

I don't mind motorbikes in bus lanes - but I really hate it when they get into a narrow cycle lane and then crawl along forcing you to slow down.

seamus

Bloody Dublin Cycling Campaign.

As a cyclist, they embarrass me. Nowhere had anyone ever suggested opening up cycle lanes to motorcycles, bus lanes only. Yet somehow they use it to go on a crusade about cycle lanes.

There's already a bad enough us -v- them attitude between cyclists and other motorists. Are we looking to make enemies with everyone?

blorg

In fairness it is worded that way as bus lanes are (generally) also cycle lanes, as per the sign:



Personally I disagree with this position though, I would have no problem with allowing motorbikes in bus lanes as is the case in parts of the UK:



I would be more concerned with repealing the law that makes cycle lanes mandatory for cyclists TBH.

snollup

blorg wrote: »

I would be more concerned with repealing the law that makes cycle lanes mandatory for cyclists TBH.

Are you saying that if there is a cycle lane we are bound to use them by law?, no matter haw sh1t there are? That's not good!

Ciaran500

snollup wrote: »

Are you saying that if there is a cycle lane we are bound to use them by law?, no matter haw sh1t there are? That's not good!

Yep

Chris Peak

snollup wrote: »

Are you saying that if there is a cycle lane we are bound to use them by law?, no matter haw sh1t there are? That's not good!

That is technically true, but luckily we live here…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YIzoLkStDM

Bicyclegadabout

I don't see the big problem with motorbikes in the *bus* lane. Cyclists, motorcyclists and bus passengers don't cause traffic congestion, so I don't any reason why they should have to put up with it.

I've had a couple of roadside screaming matches with motorcyclists, how and ever I have sympathy for them. Motorcyclists deal with the exact same crap on the roads as cyclists, but moreso because they go faster. And owning a motorbike makes a lot of sense in the city.

rp

311 wrote: »

... of all the times I've been cut off on the road and just plain ignored ,80% were fat mercedes drivers.

It's not for nothing that in Germany, Mercedes are said come with "Built-in Priority" (eingebaute Vorfahrtsrecht)

RJGMovie

Sadly the Garda do not seem interested in enforcing the law regarding cycle lanes. Most mornings between 8:50 and 9:20 the cycle lane near Kevin St barracks (junction with Patrick St) is blocked by cars and vans, despite numerous complaints to the station.

cyclopath2001

seamus wrote: »

Nowhere had anyone ever suggested opening up cycle lanes to motorcycles, bus lanes only. Yet somehow they use it to go on a crusade about cycle lanes.

Unfortunately, if you let a motorcycle into a bus lane (legally), you're also giving them access to any broken-white line cycle track within that bus lane. Also to the point, the reality and the law are not the same.

seamus wrote: »

Are we looking to make enemies with everyone?

Agreed, Dublin Cycling Campaign's statement looks a bit cranky.

Civilian_Target

Man, that PR is crappy. I really dislike the little environmental prod thrown in there at the end. I agree with the taxi driver stuff, particularly the separation distance, but I think that they could be a bit more welcoming of the good news.

blorg

Civilian_Target wrote: »

Man, that PR is crappy. I really dislike the little environmental prod thrown in there at the end. I agree with the taxi driver stuff, particularly the separation distance, but I think that they could be a bit more welcoming of the good news.

Agreed. I make sure to take several short haul flights a year to offset all my cycling.

unionman

Dublin Cycling Campaign seem to be consistently gifted striking the wrong note whenever they surface.

What they have failed to grasp is that their stakeholders aren't just cyclists, they are all road users. Though you'd never know that from reading their PR.

I think it's probably time to climb down off the environmental pedestal too. Environmental concerns, awareness of a 'carbon footprint' etc etc have become mainstream, and by no means the preserve of people who choose to cycle to work. There are thousands of people who would love to cycle into the capital every day, but for the vast majority, living more than 10km outside the city (as so many do) makes it impossible.

By maintaining an 'us and them' approach, and coming across as a bit whiney, the campaign doesn't do cyclists any favours*.

*Despite very honourable intentions I'm sure

Gavin

unionman wrote: »

By maintaining an 'us and them' approach, and coming across as a bit whiney, the campaign doesn't do cyclists any favours*.

*Despite very honourable intentions I'm sure

Thoroughly agree, their documents tend to be overly dramatic and emotional. It's particularly annoying when they claim to speak for all cyclists.

lukester

I think this is the problem with something like Reclaim the Streets and other inflammatory approaches. While I may agree with some of their sentiments, particularly regarding globalisation, I don't think peeing off regular Joe Schmoes is going to make things any better.

Cycling needs to be included as part of an overall strategy on transport. Your average commuter is worried about it being safe to cycle in Dublin, and staying warm and dry. I have lots of people in my office not from Dublin who say they'd love to cycle but they're too scared. They also don't fancy the winter months.

If we had proper cycle lanes, maintained, perhaps with a raised edge (not something I'd favour myself) and priority for cyclists to turn left at lights, etc, etc. this would encourage more people to get onto two wheels. Somethign like the Ride to Work scheme in the UK would be a good incentive too.

But the public face of the cycling lobby needs to be something non-cyclists can relate to, not just enthusiasts. I'm sure they're well intentioned too, and I've considered getting involved myself, but people are alienated by groups that come across as cranky and holier than thou.

blorg

I think CTC in the UK often strike a much better note with this. I'm a (non-"involved") member of DCC by the way and support them but often cringe at some of the press releases.

311

I was at one DCC meeting a few years back and tried to ask them about a bike park within the city centre. I got some positive feedback from a few people who were genuinely interested. BUT

Then this elderly lad started talking over me (Head of the group) and completely mistook what I said ,I just couldn't wait to get out of the place.
I think DCC has a case of bad politics going on ,some people are just in it for themselves.

cyclopath2001

unionman wrote: »

but for the vast majority, living more than 10km outside the city (as so many do) makes it impossible.

Average cycling speed is 20kph That's only a half-hour cycle. I would say that up to 20 km is easily possible for an average person. But, they have to be given confidence they can do it and that it's going to be comfortable in terms of space, non-threatening road situations and work facilities.

However, I think the big reason for so many cars coming in is because they can.

blorg

Agree entirely with cyclopath; there are of course those for whom cycling would not be an option but plenty of people could that just don't. 45% of all commuters in the 2002 census (and this includes rural dwellers) had a commute of 4 miles (6.5km) or less (644,500 people.) I am sure commutes have got longer since then but there are still a hell of a lot of people driving short distances that don't have to.

unionman

blorg wrote: »

Agree entirely with cyclopath; there are of course those for whom cycling would not be an option but plenty of people could that just don't. 45% of all commuters in the 2002 census (and this includes rural dwellers) had a commute of 4 miles (6.5km) or less (644,500 people.) I am sure commutes have got longer since then but there are still a hell of a lot of people driving short distances that don't have to.

I agree completely. People are very attached to their cars, and most will keep filling their tanks with increasingly expensive fuel rather than invest in a bike. All of those short commutes play a huge part in congestion, and that is because, given the choice, most will stick with four wheels.

Someone mentioned fear in an earlier post, and I think it plays a big part for a lot of people. There are a few cyclists in my workplace, but majority are drivers, and the conversation often comes up about bike vs car. Most of the drivers shudder at the idea of cycling, sometimes out the mere discomfort of cycling in the rain, but most because the idea of cycling through traffic scares the cr4p out of them.

In spirit, I absolutely support any campaign that promotes cycling. But the PR here is just one big shot in the foot. Alienating potential supporters and allies is counterproductive to what they are trying to achieve, and it pains me to see the same mistakes made over and over again.

the boss of me

Civilian_Target wrote: »

Man, that PR is crappy. I really dislike the little environmental prod thrown in there at the end. I agree with the taxi driver stuff, particularly the separation distance, but I think that they could be a bit more welcoming of the good news.

The PR is not just crappy , it's totally incorrect

Taxis are permitted to use these lanes only while on business – that is with the meter operational and a fare present.

This statement is just plain wrong. Taxis are in fact entitled to use bus lanes at all times .

As a cyclist myself I would distance myself from DCC. as they do not represent me. It would be interseting to find out what percentage of cyclists are members of this group, I'd imagine it's a very small number.

My two cents ;as a Dublin Bus driver and cyclist I would have no problem whatsoever with motorbikes in bus lanes. Many bus lanes are half empty most of the time anyway and motorbikes would not increase my journey times whether on my bike or driving a bus.

Ciaran500

the boss of me wrote: »

This statement is just plain wrong. Taxis are in fact entitled to use bus lanes at all times .

Are you sure about that?

the boss of me

100% sure .

Chips Lovell

Statutory Instrument No. 182/1997
Road Traffic (Traffice and Parking) Regulations, 1997

32. (1) A bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 028 or traffic sign number RUS 029 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024, and a contra flow bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 030 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024.


(2) A person shall not enter a bus lane with a vehicle other than an omnibus or a pedal cycle during the period of operation of the bus lane which shall be indicated on an information plate.


(3) A person shall not enter a contra flow bus lane with a vehicle other than an omnibus.


(4) A person shall not enter a bus only street with a vehicle other than an omnibus except for the purpose of access.


(5) ( a ) Sub-articles (1) and (2) shall not apply to a vehicle crossing a with flow bus lane or a contra flow bus lane solely for the purpose—


(i) of entering or leaving premises or property adjacent to such a bus lane, or


(ii) of entering or leaving a road inset adjacent to such a bus lane in order to load or unload goods.


( b ) Sub-article (2) shall not apply to a taxi or a wheelchair accessible taxi which is being used in the course of business.

It doesn't specify what "in the course of business is", whether it is on duty or occupied by a passenger. I suspect it is the former.

311

Hey ,sorry for posting in this thread again. I know I don't contribute a lot ,but I do understand most of whats going on in the cycling forum.I'm not a cycling commuter nor do I cycle regurlarly ,not at the moment anyway.
I love cycling myself ,but my job means I'm in van 16 hours a day (Trade)

It seems that a few people carry a lot of vengeance ,in the detail of other road users. I can't see how this is a healthy thing to do ,especially when you have to keep the eye on the road like a cyclist would.
Maybe lighten up a little ,otherwise you'll end up in a hole somewhere.

FrankGrimes

Interesting stats on commute distances there blorg, though I agree they have probably increased since 2002, particularly in Dublin with so many people having bought in Kildare etc. I actually had a laugh to myself when we cycled through Prosperous on Sunday as I still remember the ads selling houses in 'Prosperous, 8 miles beyond Naas. 30 minutes from Dublin'. Yeh right, I'm pretty sure flying vehicles with warp speed aren't being mass produced for the consumer yet.

But there are plenty of people who could cycle to work probably even faster than they could drive but they just don't. I'm not sure of the reasons behind this but I think there's 2 things that could be done to really make it seem like less of an ordeal to joe public to get on his bike and cycle the 8km to work:

1. Provide cyclepaths that are safe (see Templeogue village for an example of what not to do) and give cyclists priority at least over traffic coming into their path from small tributary roads on their left. The current cyclepaths are mostly either dangerous or require cyclists to yield far more often than they would have to do by just being on the road.

2. Incent employers to provide shower facilities and lockers. Maybe require all companies with over X employees to provide Y lockers and shower facilities, all with significant tax breaks and possibly further incentives.

I wouldn't cycle even 2km to work if I couldn't have a shower and change of clothes when I get there.

If you can tell joe public there's safe cyclepaths which he can just use to cruise along and rarely have to stop and start and that he can have a shower and change of clothes at the other end, he's far more likely to go for it.

Hermy

A taxi driver may use a bus lane when engaged in a hiring or on route to a booking but not at all times as mentioned earlier.
Why do people object to taxi's using bus lanes? A taxi legally using a bus lane is doing so to facilitate the customer and not the driver. If taxi's were not permitted to use bus lanes then journeys by taxi would be of a longer duration and be more costly to the customer.

p

the boss of me wrote: »

As a cyclist myself I would distance myself from DCC. as they do not represent me. It would be interseting to find out what percentage of cyclists are members of this group, I'd imagine it's a very small number.

Would it not be better to get involved in the group, rather than distancing yourself from it. Since you're not a person of any politicial importance (relatively speaking) distancing yourself from it achieves pretty much zero. If you joined it and even just went to the AGM it would do considerably more.

Bicyclegadabout

Hermy wrote: »

A taxi driver may use a bus lane when engaged in a hiring or on route to a booking but not at all times as mentioned earlier.
Why do people object to taxi's using bus lanes? A taxi legally using a bus lane is doing so to facilitate the customer and not the driver. If taxi's were not permitted to use bus lanes then journeys by taxi would be of a longer duration and be more costly to the customer.

It's fine when they're on a job, obviously. It's not so fine when they're taking the piss.

jimmycrackcorm

Hermy wrote: »

Why do people object to taxi's using bus lanes? A taxi legally using a bus lane is doing so to facilitate the customer and not the driver.

I object to it because I don't see how, given the amount of tax I pay through VRT, motor tax, petrol and car derived VAT, how someone else who is not contributing anywhere near as much to the public coffers is getting the benefit of this facility. At least a bus / bike reduces the traffic volume.

The only advantage is that if you do need to get somewhere in a hurry (such as the airport ) then at least the taxi in a bus lane is the only option available.

Hermy

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I object to it because I don't see how, given the amount of tax I pay through VRT, motor tax, petrol and car derived VAT, how someone else who is not contributing anywhere near as much to the public coffers is getting the benefit of this facility. At least a bus / bike reduces the traffic volume.

The only advantage is that if you do need to get somewhere in a hurry (such as the airport ) then at least the taxi in a bus lane is the only option available.

Sweeping statements about who pays more tax are unhelpful.
The taxi driver availing of the bus lane is doing so to serve the customer.