An interesting theory on God

irishpacker

Is there a God?

God, in his many human conceptions (Christianity, Islam etc..) does not exist for the simple and undeniable fact that God in our eyes was a human creation. Created out of the primal instinct for meaning and protection from the unknown. God has evolved into a being of heirarchial superiority and knowledge, to whom worship and obedience is paramount. I could go on for hours explaining the origin of God in our existence, but the fundamental truth is that God as we conceive him does not exist.

But,

that does not mean that a "supreme being" or "creator" does not exist. The simple fact is that we do not know, and never will know, if we are the result of some divine intervention or if we are simply a mutated creation from some ancient bacteria.

It is interesting to know that the conditions for our evolution are so precise, that even scientists declare that our existence as we are today is nothing short of complete fluke. The conditions I speak of include, Gravity, The universal constant, etc.. the Physical Rules that govern our universe. The question is, how did these "Rules" attain their values? For example, if Gravity was even a micron different in its value, our universe would not have formed as it currently stands. Our planet, our sun, nothing would have formed, and our existence simply would not be. The greatest example of these freak laws, is the universal constant, a variable so finely tuned that if its value were 22 decimal points different, we would not exist. As if this wasn't concerning enough, all these Physical Rules just so happen to be in perfect alignment, creating the perfect conditions for our solar system and our evolution to human form.

The point of me telling you this is simple: Even Scientists agree that the chances of all of these Physical Laws, which govern everything in our visable universe, containing the perfect and precise values so as to enable to evolution of our universe and us; the chances of this occuring are so ridiculous that is goes beyond the areas of chance and fluke, and into the relms of creation.... In otherwords, the rules for our universe were set by someone/thing that allowed for the creation of everything...

Some Scientists have countered this crushing scientific fact with the argument that we live in one of an infinate number of universes (or dimensions), each one with different values and combinations of the basic physical laws, and therefore it is simply a matter of statistics thats our universe should have the perfect conditions neccesary for our evolution. But this is just a theory.

Having first read about this area of debate a few years ago, I have been captivated by it. It is kept very hush hush by the scientific community as it would be perfect ammo for religious groups to use.

I do not believe in God as "we" have created it, but the chance of there actually being some sort of creator, divine or otherwise, is not an outlandish idea, and one which is deserving of debate. I believe that we as a human race are not capable of comprehending our own existence. We are too simple, our minds ask the wrong questions and we seek the wrong answers. The truth is that we will never know why we are here, or what lies beyond our visable universe. But it is fun to try and theorise and guess, is it not! Personally I believe the answers lie in pure energy that is everywhere in our universe, but we are a few billion years of evolution away from getting into that!

thanks for reading!... I suppose I better get back to work now!:p

nyarlothothep

the problem with presupposing a creator is that it involves a lot more assumptions about how that creator came into existence in the first place with the sentience to design our universe, Occams Razor et al I do think statistical explanations require less of these.

Tbh, when questions about the ultimate abound, I won't rule anything out, even the creator theory because at best all we have are hypotheses but the creator theory just seems lazier and more comfortable to live with. I would risk saying that the reason(s) for the existence of existence itself (like the meaning of meaning) is/are probably something we cannot even think of yet. In order to answer these questions I would also say we would need to stand outside the universe itself though thats not possible yet as everything we have to work with is derived from it.

I don't believe however that we are incapable of answering these questions, we will have the power to expand our minds, I dunno, through a combo of gene therapy and hooking up to computers to use their processing power to think at a greater speed and to handle more facts simultaneously. Even the singularity predictions could enable us to answer these questions. Life the universe and everything isn't really complex or enigmatic, just to us at the moment but we've made some progress already in de-mystifying it.

Kama

I presupposed a Creator once. He was a large blind incontinent chicken.
He leaves droppings, and universes spring up in His Leavings.

Point being, a creator might not necessarily give a sh*t.

Actually, plenty of scientists have looked at the anthropic principle from this point of view. Might I recommend Paul Davies, the Mind of God? The science/religion split is overblown as far as I'm concerned by people like Dawkins, and hardens into partisan-antagonistic lines. Faraday, Newton, and Einstein all managed to do helpful scientific work while being deist, 'frinstance.

But faith isn't evidence. And filling a unexplained event with 'God Did It' has a famously bad history, to be frank...best steer clear of it.

For a convincing macro-theory of a spiritual Kosmos, I'd recommend Ken Wilber, A Theory of Everything, or on the science/religion split The Marriage of Sense and Soul.

eunified61

MY 91 year old aunt recently said to me " my mind is working overtime ,I wasawake the other night wondering where did God come from and how old was the Earth". I told her she should have asked those questions when she was younger ,she said that she wasn't allowed.Got her some stuff on the big bang theory(her mind is still sharp) any she settled she settled for faith for the lack of something more concrete!

dissident

If you are the one who chooses your god, doesn't that mean you created god?

Red Hand

irishpacker wrote: »

It is interesting to know that the conditions for our evolution are so precise, that even scientists declare that our existence as we are today is nothing short of complete fluke. The conditions I speak of include, Gravity, The universal constant, etc.. the Physical Rules that govern our universe. The question is, how did these "Rules" attain their values? For example, if Gravity was even a micron different in its value, our universe would not have formed as it currently stands. Our planet, our sun, nothing would have formed, and our existence simply would not be. The greatest example of these freak laws, is the universal constant, a variable so finely tuned that if its value were 22 decimal points different, we would not exist. As if this wasn't concerning enough, all these Physical Rules just so happen to be in perfect alignment, creating the perfect conditions for our solar system and our evolution to human form.

The point of me telling you this is simple: Even Scientists agree that the chances of all of these Physical Laws, which govern everything in our visable universe, containing the perfect and precise values so as to enable to evolution of our universe and us; the chances of this occuring are so ridiculous that is goes beyond the areas of chance and fluke, and into the relms of creation.... In otherwords, the rules for our universe were set by someone/thing that allowed for the creation of everything...

This is rather flawed logic. William Palen came up with a similiar idea in the 1700 or 1800s, with his metaphor of the pocket watch found on a heath. The person who discovers the watch reasons that the watch has a purpose and is so finely tuned and crafted that it must have had a creator. Likewise the Universe.

To demonstrate the skewed nature of the whole business of thinking (our thinking that is, humans), someone once said, well if someone came upon a watch on a heath, the first thing that they would think would be, rather,

"Where is the owner?"

Likewise, who "owns", rather than created the Universe?:)

Again, things like gravity being just so, and the elements being just so, and the speed of light being just so...all these things being just so allowing life to flourish, is skewed thinking. Yes, life as we know it wouldn't exist. But that doesn't mean that someone created these things just as they were so that life would be the end product, and that humans would evolve from life just to ponder how marvellous and coincidental it all was.

Some Scientists have countered this crushing scientific fact with the argument that we live in one of an infinate number of universes (or dimensions), each one with different values and combinations of the basic physical laws, and therefore it is simply a matter of statistics thats our universe should have the perfect conditions neccesary for our evolution. But this is just a theory.

'Perfect conditions for our evolution.'

No, the 'perfect conditions' were and are part of our evolution. They are not perfect, merely conditions.

Having first read about this area of debate a few years ago, I have been captivated by it. It is kept very hush hush by the scientific community as it would be perfect ammo for religious groups to use.

I do not believe in God as "we" have created it, but the chance of there actually being some sort of creator, divine or otherwise, is not an outlandish idea, and one which is deserving of debate. I believe that we as a human race are not capable of comprehending our own existence. We are too simple, our minds ask the wrong questions and we seek the wrong answers.

There are no questions and no answers. We and our thinking are part and parcel of the closed Moebius strip of this universe. Thinking is determined by the constraints of this Universe.

AtomicHorror

irishpacker wrote: »

that does not mean that a "supreme being" or "creator" does not exist. The simple fact is that we do not know, and never will know, if we are the result of some divine intervention or if we are simply a mutated creation from some ancient bacteria.

What makes you think we can't figure that one out? We're already pretty sure that this is exactly what we are. The only people who disagree with the scientific majority just happen to also be religious fundamentalists.

Kama

Don't think its quite that simple, atomic. You can quite plausibly be religious and practice science without being a fundamentalist, nor do you have to be a atheist to be a good scientist. The dogmatic view on both of the extremes tends to dominate the conversation, whether Dawkins or Creationists, but neither should be seen imo as wholly representative of science or religion respectively. Its a little like taking the Rational Response Squad and Fred Phelps as the defining figures for atheism and Christianity; distorting and unhelpful caricatures...

Yes, we evolved; but its quite plausible to view the evolutionary process as itself divine in origin; an intelligent (or lazy!) Creator wouldn't micromanage, but would put efficient basic rules in place, and leave the details to work themselves out. Teilhard de Chardin brought Christianity in line theoretically with evolution, with the idea of God as evolving; Aurobindo did the same for Hinduism. Religion doesn't necessarily have to be a stultifying den of ignorance...

Saying 'thats exactly what we are', whether that is our genetic programming, or our behavioural, or our chemical constituents, etc, seems almost as unwarranted as theological positions on what we 'actually are'...sinful, loving, whatever. Its making a claim about (ultimate) reality which generally can't be backed up. We can be described as any of these things; there's a 'Leap of Faith' in either case to say thats what we 'are'.

CursedSkeptic

irishpacker wrote: »

Is there a God?

God, in his many human conceptions (Christianity, Islam etc..) does not exist for the simple and undeniable fact that God in our eyes was a human creation. Created out of the primal instinct for meaning and protection from the unknown. God has evolved into a being of heirarchial superiority and knowledge, to whom worship and obedience is paramount. I could go on for hours explaining the origin of God in our existence, but the fundamental truth is that God as we conceive him does not exist.

But,

that does not mean that a "supreme being" or "creator" does not exist. The simple fact is that we do not know, and never will know, if we are the result of some divine intervention or if we are simply a mutated creation from some ancient bacteria.

It is interesting to know that the conditions for our evolution are so precise, that even scientists declare that our existence as we are today is nothing short of complete fluke. The conditions I speak of include, Gravity, The universal constant, etc.. the Physical Rules that govern our universe. The question is, how did these "Rules" attain their values? For example, if Gravity was even a micron different in its value, our universe would not have formed as it currently stands. Our planet, our sun, nothing would have formed, and our existence simply would not be. The greatest example of these freak laws, is the universal constant, a variable so finely tuned that if its value were 22 decimal points different, we would not exist. As if this wasn't concerning enough, all these Physical Rules just so happen to be in perfect alignment, creating the perfect conditions for our solar system and our evolution to human form.

The point of me telling you this is simple: Even Scientists agree that the chances of all of these Physical Laws, which govern everything in our visable universe, containing the perfect and precise values so as to enable to evolution of our universe and us; the chances of this occuring are so ridiculous that is goes beyond the areas of chance and fluke, and into the relms of creation.... In otherwords, the rules for our universe were set by someone/thing that allowed for the creation of everything...

Some Scientists have countered this crushing scientific fact with the argument that we live in one of an infinate number of universes (or dimensions), each one with different values and combinations of the basic physical laws, and therefore it is simply a matter of statistics thats our universe should have the perfect conditions neccesary for our evolution. But this is just a theory.

Having first read about this area of debate a few years ago, I have been captivated by it. It is kept very hush hush by the scientific community as it would be perfect ammo for religious groups to use.

I do not believe in God as "we" have created it, but the chance of there actually being some sort of creator, divine or otherwise, is not an outlandish idea, and one which is deserving of debate. I believe that we as a human race are not capable of comprehending our own existence. We are too simple, our minds ask the wrong questions and we seek the wrong answers. The truth is that we will never know why we are here, or what lies beyond our visable universe. But it is fun to try and theorise and guess, is it not! Personally I believe the answers lie in pure energy that is everywhere in our universe, but we are a few billion years of evolution away from getting into that!

thanks for reading!... I suppose I better get back to work now!:p

You are looking at this from the perspective of a species that has managed to survive. Yes, the universe seems precisely tuned to suit us perfectly, but the reality is that we are precisely tuned to suit the universe. Had things been only slightly different we would not exist and it could be the case that another being that thrived in the alternative conditions would be making the same observation as you ( of course this is an order of magnitude more unlikely, but you can see that I am saying it to make a point). Of course, it could also be the case that nothing would exist, or that it would take a lot longer for anything to evolve. Before one asks such questions it is important to rid oneself of the innate solipsism that human beings tend to have.

What I am saying is that there is no need to postulate an supreme being, a theistic or deistic creator. It is not parsimonious as it leaves you with that age old question of who created the creator, as well as many others equally unanswerable. The reason the scientific community don't deal with this question is because it is unfalsifiable. Scientists are only in the business of dealing with what can be known.

Calibos

Its the puddle analogy.

The puddle ponders its existence and marvels at how the depression it sits in was perfectly shaped to fit the puddles form like a glove.

Mark Hamill

irishpacker wrote: »

The point of me telling you this is simple: Even Scientists agree that the chances of all of these Physical Laws, which govern everything in our visable universe, containing the perfect and precise values so as to enable to evolution of our universe and us; the chances of this occuring are so ridiculous that is goes beyond the areas of chance and fluke, and into the relms of creation.... In otherwords, the rules for our universe were set by someone/thing that allowed for the creation of everything...

Calibos put if very well with his puddle Analogy, but let me come at you like this:
The problem, you see, to put it simply, is that you seem to think that life as we know it is the mold, and the universe was a fixed shape that had to fit around it, and because it did so well (and because life itself cannot possibly alter the essence of the universe) some designer must have made the universe.
However once you realise that the universe is the mold, and that life is not a fixed shape, it is incredibly fluid and adaptable (as you can see by the variability of life on this very planet), its quite obvious there's no creater, we are only an outcome .
All you gotta do is ask yourself the most philosphical question: Which came first: The universe? or life as we know it?

razor89

our existance doesnt seem so suprising if one thought of a multiverse. hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of universes!!!! itd be suprising NOT to find a completly ideal setting for life! I heard this being compared to a man going into a shop to find a suit. he goes up to a huge rail full of suits and is not so supprised to find at least one that fits.