Metro North confirmed

stiktoir

Metro North light rail plan

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Thursday August 07 2008

THE massive €3.7bn Metro North project in Dublin will go ahead as planned, the Government has confirmed.
Finance Minister Brian Lenihan met with the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) late last week and instructed the agency responsible for delivering the light-rail system to inform bidders that it would go ahead.
The move is designed so the four bidding parties seeking to build and operate the system submit the best possible price for delivering the light rail project, which will run from St Stephen's Green to north of Swords.
It comes after the Government has repeatedly refused to state if it will be shelved as a result of falling tax revenues and the economic downturn.
Last night the Department of Finance confirmed that the meeting between Mr Lenihan, the RPA's chairman Tom Mulcahy and chief executive Frank Allen took place last Thursday, but it refused to comment on what was discussed.
The RPA also refused to comment.
But informed sources have told the Irish Independent that the Government wanted to send out the message that the project, estimated to cost €3.7bn, would go ahead so the four bidders would submit the best price.






Seems the Minister of Finance not seeing eye to eye with mr spongey bob

paulm17781

stiktoir wrote: »

Seems the Minister of Finance not seeing eye to eye with mr spongey bob

While I think it will happen, this isn't an official announcement. Until there are TBMs in the ground, I'm not getting my hopes up. I hope this is true though...

Bluetonic

Is every news item about Metro North worthy of a new thread?

markpb

paulm17781 wrote: »

While I think it will happen, this isn't an official announcement. Until there are TBMs in the ground, I'm not getting my hopes up. I hope this is true though...

Absolutely.

I wonder what are the chances of his story changing shortly after the local elections next year?

1huge1

Bluetonic wrote: »

Is every news item about Metro North worthy of a new thread?

Well this one is, the others were mostly speculation.

paulm17781

1huge1 wrote: »

Well this one is, the others were mostly speculation.

This one is too. There is no confirmed source and it's not an official announcement. I don't see why it matters that it's a new thread, people often don't read old ones. We still have no concrete proof though.

trellheim

I'm with Sponge Bob. Also we need to see a contract start date

ardmacha

I'll say these projects will go ahead, but the dates will be allowed slip.

Sponge Bob

stiktoir wrote: »

Seems the Minister of Finance not seeing eye to eye with mr spongey bob

The Minister of Finance has said nothing in public and neither has the NRA ...and nor can I find this story on the independent website so please link it properly for us if you do find it , ta

But I did find good news for ya Mr Stik

"Cabinet approves new Dublin metro project"

whosedaddy?

just found the link to the story.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/metro-north--light-rail-plan-will-go-ahead--insists-minister-1448272.html

Sponge Bob

Thanks for the link, I see Mr Stik deliberately left this bit out :eek:

Until the final cost of building the 17km line is known, the Cabinet will not approve funding

That would be the first time the government said they had capped the price would it not people ???

Hardly a resounding vote in the RPA and in its selection of Consortia to bid

stiktoir

Always entertaining to read the bizarre spoofing of one or two posters on this site.

Sponge Bob

stiktoir wrote: »

Always entertaining to read the bizarre spoofing of one or two posters on this site.

Why did you leave the Cabinet Price Cap bit out Mr Stik??

...in fact most of your posts are on Metro North since you joined Boards so you seem to be quite an expert .

I repeat the omission from the Indo piece you never linked

"Until the final cost of building the 17km line is known, the Cabinet will not approve funding"

markf909

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The Minister of Finance has said nothing in public and neither has the NRA ...and nor can I find this story on the independent website so please link it properly for us if you do find it , ta

But I did find good news for ya Mr Stik

"Cabinet approves new Dublin metro project"

Love it, we had approval to build it 6 years ago!

These days we are now at "we haven't ruled out building it".

Sponge Bob

markf909 wrote: »

Love it, we had approval to build it 6 years ago!

Absolutely and as Michael Kennedy the Dublin North FF TD said of Metro North ( only last year )

"I am expecting it to be completed by 2012."

2014 at the earliest and slipping towards 2015 or even 2020 I am sad to say

Hecate

"Metro North light rail plan will go ahead, insists minister"

Nice one lads, don't aim too high now :rolleyes:

strassenwolf

Today's Sunday Business Post wrote:

Metro North deadline put back to 2009
Sunday, September 07, 2008 By Nicola Cooke
The bidders for the Metro North rail project have been told that the date for the submission of tenders has been extended by more than two months to February next year.

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) has told the four consortiums vying for the multibillion euro project that their detailed costings now have to be submitted by February 6, rather than November 27.The RPA has reassured the bidders that the project will go ahead despite the decline in the government finances.

An RPA spokesman said the date had been changed ‘‘at the request of some of the bidders’’. He said that the RPA was ready to submit an application for a railway order for the Metro North - which will run between Swords and St Stephen’s Green – to An Bord Pleanála.

‘‘The railway order application, which is over 3,000 pages, is at the printers and ready to go this week,” he said. ‘‘It contains all the drawings, reference books, and a comprehensive environmental impact study. It will be out on display by the board.”

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=35730-qqqx=1.asp

Who's actually running the show: the RPA or "some of the bidders"?

How much time do these bidders need?

And isn't this a bit unfair on those bidders who were ready to go with the November date?

Sponge Bob

No Money = No Rush !

wallyina

Sponge Bob wrote: »

No Money = No Rush !

:rolleyes: ?

MN is a PPP project. No real money needed until 2014 when operation begins.

The consortia have been saying Dec 2008 too tight since procurement process began.

Planning app goes in next week. Will be Aug 2009 before that is cleared.

Feb 2009 for tenders make no difference.

Bluetonic

The DAA have applied for planning to change the internal road layout of Dublin Airport, part of which is to facilitate the airport metro box.

Application F08A/1025

mysterious

RIGHT.

Now.

Build it fianna fail. If you delay another year with this, your popularity will fall to zero levels this year, if its not falling already. my words have effect already

I'm sure WILL NAME AND SHAME YOU TO THE END OF THE EARTH, if you dance around the bush with sticks any longer.

Fianna fail
Put your wands down, and stop dancing around the tree..

And build it.............

strassenwolf

wallyina wrote: »

Planning app goes in next week. Will be Aug 2009 before that is cleared.

Even with the 260 metre station at O'Connell Bridge? Are they seriously proposing to go ahead with that?

Nostradamus

Bluetonic wrote: »

The DAA have applied for planning to change the internal road layout of Dublin Airport, part of which is to facilitate the airport metro box.

Application F08A/1025

The DAA are also finally announcing that MN is coming to their airport in their new propaganda multimedia thingy they recently came out it.

Victor

Bye stiktoir.

BogWog

3.7 billion Jesus. I wonder how much it would cost them to build a subway system under Dublin. I don't know how deep the pipelines in Dublin go but I know they can bore holes right under the city and don't have to tear down any structures above ground. A subway system would ease massive amounts of traffic. All the big cities in America have them and they go all over the place unlike the Dart which just goes north to south.

BluntGuy

BogWog wrote: »

3.7 billion Jesus. I wonder how much it would cost them to build a subway system under Dublin. I don't know how deep the pipelines in Dublin go but I know they can bore holes right under the city and don't have to tear down any structures above ground. A subway system would ease massive amounts of traffic. All the big cities in America have them and they go all over the place unlike the Dart which just goes north to south.

Well when the DART interconnector is complete (if ever), then there will be two seperate DART lines connecting at Pearse Station.

So if all goes according to plan we'll have six railway lines: DART 1, DART 2 (Underground), Metro North (Underground), Metro West, Luas Red, Luas Green and a few commuter services, all of which are intergrated. Combine that with cycle paths and a quality bus network and that's a brilliant public transport system.

But that's IF any of that happens.

And let us not forget that this only applies to Dublin. Cork's bus service is beyond terrible. Waterford's is a joke. I haven't used any of the other city's public transport, but they can't be much better...

Victor

BogWog wrote: »

3.7 billion Jesus. I wonder how much it would cost them to build a subway system under Dublin. I don't know how deep the pipelines in Dublin go but I know they can bore holes right under the city and don't have to tear down any structures above ground. A subway system would ease massive amounts of traffic. All the big cities in America have them and they go all over the place unlike the Dart which just goes north to south.

That includes running it for 30 years.

whosedaddy?

BogWog wrote: »

3.7 billion Jesus. I wonder how much it would cost them to build a subway system under Dublin. I don't know how deep the pipelines in Dublin go but I know they can bore holes right under the city and don't have to tear down any structures above ground. A subway system would ease massive amounts of traffic. All the big cities in America have them and they go all over the place unlike the Dart which just goes north to south.

And in Switzerland you get a LHC for that amount of money....
(sorry, just couldn't help it)

D.L.R.

BluntGuy wrote: »

So if all goes according to plan we'll have six railway lines: DART 1, DART 2 (Underground), Metro North (Underground), Metro West, Luas Red, Luas Green and a few commuter services, all of which are intergrated. Combine that with cycle paths and a quality bus network and that's a brilliant public transport system.

Brilliant might be a bit of an overstatement. 6 rail lines yes, but how many of those 6 will have their own dedicated corridor? Just one - Metro North. All the others have some degree of compromise - the Darts share tracks with national services, and the Luases (including 'Metro' West) all share roadspace with cars and buses.

Also, the problem remains that some areas of the city are nowhere near rail lines. So no, we are far from having a brilliant transport system. Lets worry about getting to the level of "adequate" first.

BluntGuy

D.L.R. wrote: »

Brilliant might be a bit of an overstatement. 6 rail lines yes, but how many of those 6 will have their own dedicated corridor? Just one - Metro North. All the others have some degree of compromise - the Darts share tracks with national services, and the Luases (including 'Metro' West) all share roadspace with cars and buses.

Also, the problem remains that some areas of the city are nowhere near rail lines. So no, we are far from having a brilliant transport system. Lets worry about getting to the level of "adequate" first.

I get what you mean.

I'm dissappointed by Metro North and Metro West's lack of ambition.

Building them as Light Rail systems is fine, but they should be able to upgrade to heavy rail systems if needed. If e-mailed somebody working on the project and they confirmed that an upgrade wouldn't be possible. It is going to be constructed like London's Dockland Light-Rail service. Mistake number one.

Metro West running on street level reduces the speed and quality of the service and simply turns it into another luas line. Mistake number two.

None of the new links particuarly serve the south of the city very well. Mistake number three.

I know it's impossible to have a 'perfect' public transport system. But anything's better than what we have now. I'm just being optimistic. And hey, I lived in London for a few years and used the public transport (tube and bus) everyday, so I know what an adequate public transport system is.

dowlingm

BogWog wrote: »

A subway system would ease massive amounts of traffic. All the big cities in America have them and they go all over the place unlike the Dart which just goes north to south.

the advantage for underground transit in north america is that most streets are on a grid and therefore you can have a near bullet straight tunnel while keeping the bore or cut/cover under the road allowance. That's difficult to do in Dublin where a road keeps a straight line for maybe 50 yards at a time.

D.L.R.

BluntGuy wrote: »

I get what you mean.

I'm dissappointed by Metro North and Metro West's lack of ambition.

Building them as Light Rail systems is fine, but they should be able to upgrade to heavy rail systems if needed. If e-mailed somebody working on the project and they confirmed that an upgrade wouldn't be possible. It is going to be constructed like London's Dockland Light-Rail service. Mistake number one.

Metro West running on street level reduces the speed and quality of the service and simply turns it into another luas line. Mistake number two.

None of the new links particuarly serve the south of the city very well. Mistake number three.

I know it's impossible to have a 'perfect' public transport system. But anything's better than what we have now. I'm just being optimistic. And hey, I lived in London for a few years and used the public transport (tube and bus) everyday, so I know what an adequate public transport system is.

I think Metro North is a great project. Sure its technically light rail, but its totally segragated so it'll be pretty high capacity. Dublin's not really dense enough to justify heavy rail here. If it gets built as planned I'll be happy.

Metro West is awful in just about every way. Whoever approved it should be examined by a specialist. Hopefully the recession will kill it off (along with Luas BX). If Dublin was to have an orbital rail line, it should be MUCH closer to the city centre.

Luas is all well and good, but I still say they should build underground or elevated in the city centre. Red line is slow as a bus, and Green line also slow in CC. Elevated trains work wonders in many European cities but we're too scared of "visual impact". Dublin is hamstrung in this way. Underground is usually too expensive, elevated is not considered, so we compromise with on-street trams - and compromise really is the word.

Ireland is very conservative with large scale urban infrastructure, but hopefully Metro North and Interconnector will prove their worth and encourage more big projects in the future. We're finally going underground which is great.

spacetweek

BogWog wrote: »

3.7 billion Jesus. I wonder how much it would cost them to build a subway system under Dublin. I don't know how deep the pipelines in Dublin go but I know they can bore holes right under the city and don't have to tear down any structures above ground. A subway system would ease massive amounts of traffic. All the big cities in America have them and they go all over the place unlike the Dart which just goes north to south.

I suggest you read some of the threads on here. They are doing what you describe. Oh and most of the big cities in America don't have subways, unless you're talking about the sandwich shop.

spacetweek

wallyina wrote: »

:rolleyes: ?

MN is a PPP project. No real money needed until 2014 when operation begins.

The consortia have been saying Dec 2008 too tight since procurement process began.

Planning app goes in next week. Will be Aug 2009 before that is cleared.

Feb 2009 for tenders make no difference.

I'm speechless. All this nonsense and rumour-milling I've had to listen to all this time, and it turns out we don't even need to pay anything until 2014?? In that case a funding shortfall is irrelevant. Everyone, get your coats!

Victor

BluntGuy wrote: »

Building them as Light Rail systems is fine, but they should be able to upgrade to heavy rail systems if needed. If e-mailed somebody working on the project and they confirmed that an upgrade wouldn't be possible. It is going to be constructed like London's Dockland Light-Rail service. Mistake number one.

I bought Today's Railways at the weekend. They had a photo of one of the stops on the Kassel-Saarbrücken tram-train (a tram designed to operates on an ordinary railway). Some of the stops are designed for both narrow and wide loading guages. For MN, its simply a matter of designing the sleepers to take two sets of rails, so a changeover to heavy rail can be done simply in the future.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram-Train (in German)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram-train
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail

Sponge Bob

What are the proposed MN tunnel cross sections Victor ??

I thought they were too narrow and low for heavy rail ( dart size carriages) ....maybe a third rail could do it !

Victor

6m diameter - I think thats internal. Note they need to include a walkway.

BluntGuy

Victor wrote: »

I bought Today's Railways at the weekend. They had a photo of one of the stops on the Kassel-Saarbrücken tram-train (a tram designed to operates on an ordinary railway). Some of the stops are designed for both narrow and wide loading guages. For MN, its simply a matter of designing the sleepers to take two sets of rails, so a changeover to heavy rail can be done simply in the future.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram-Train (in German)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram-train
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail

Well, when I e-mailed them, they said (along with repeating everything from their under-informative website) that an upgrade to heavy-rail WOULDN'T be possible.

Now I'm confused. I'm just taking their word for it.

paulm17781

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well, when I e-mailed them, they said (along with repeating everything from their under-informative website) that an upgrade to heavy-rail WOULDN'T be possible.

They have no plans for heavy rail. It will definitely be light rail. I think people here are hoping they'll at least make it wide enough that a future upgrade will be relatively easy.

Cool Mo D

I can't see how the difference between heavy rail and light rail in the case of Metro North is anything other than academic. Normally, light rail means (partially) shared roadspace with other users, and heavy rail is segregated, except at strictly designated level crossings. By this definition, Metro North is really heavy rail. However, traditional heavy rail uses wide bodied trains, and the vehicles used by Metro North will be narrow-bodied trains, designed for light rail usage. The only difference between Metro North and heavy rail is about 0.5m in the width of the carriages.
Compared to the DART, the DART carries roughly 10,000 people per hour at peak times, about the same as the LUAS. A single DART train has much more capacity then a LUAS, but comes much less frequently. For comparison, the Metro is designed for 22,000 people per hour.
The other major difference is the platform length: DART platforms are 200m, and Metro North will be 90m. This is about the same as the Paris metro, for example.
A better description of Metro North would be light metro rather than light rail. Wikipedia have an article on this sort of setup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_metro

murphaph

Victor wrote: »

I bought Today's Railways at the weekend

Everyone else is getting their coat, you get your anorak!

BendiBus

Victor wrote: »

I bought Today's Railways at the weekend.

And I hope you hid it discreetly under a porn mag when at the cashiers desk

Victor

murphaph wrote: »

Everyone else is getting their coat, you get your anorak!

Actually, its not that bad. Sure there are some pictorials (with numbers), but nowhere near what some of the other magazines have.

Anyway, the pic of the track layout in Kassel.