Is it legal to be rude to a Garda?

krd

Is it an offence to be rude to a Garda?

for example. A Garda stops you without reason. You answer a few questions, your name, address etc, what you're doing and what you're up to.

You're sober, and not up to anything.

The Garda becomes a sarcastic sneering worm, and starts to make personal remarks, and play a little paddy whack powergame.

Is it legal to say
"Thank you very much Garda,, as you can see, I'm not breaking any law. Would you kindly **** the **** off"

or
Or more simple "Go **** yourself"

rccaulfield

They can see that as aggressive and threatening behaviour! Swearing is seen as aprecursor to physical vioence!

krd

Yes, but that's not the point I'm requesting.

Is it a criminal offence to tell a garda to **** off.


Can someone end up in court, purely on the charge of telling a garda to **** off.

I'm am not saying obstructing the garda,, I'm saying asking the Garda to politely **** off.



I'm sure this question has been answer before (but I don't know an easy or convient way of searching through the boards)

krd

rccaulfield wrote: »

They can see that as aggressive and threatening behaviour! Swearing is seen as aprecursor to physical vioence!

Is "aprecursor to physical violence" a criminal offence.

My curiousity is about boundaries. In a civilised society under the rule of law...clear boundaries should exist.

I have the upmost respect for all garda, and members of the law society. And their efforts to maintain, at all costs, the social order of the republic of Ireland.

Steve

You are entitled to make a complaint to the Garda ombudsman if you thought his behavior was unreasonable. If you have been accused of some wrongdoing then talk to a solicitor.

TheNog

Section 6 of the Public Order Act 1994 covers threatening and abusive behaviour in a public place. There is a power of arrest for it too. This section is commonly used across the country so my advice to anyone is don;t tell a Garda to **** off.

Steve

krd wrote: »

Is "aprecursor to physical violence" a criminal offence.

Nobody's allowed to give legal advice here but you can search for it on www.irishstatutebook.ie

If a Guard used that phrase in connection with something I did then I would certainly not consider him to be saying it 'for lulz'.

Fyr.Fytr

Yes technically no but it is covered under the public order act, alot easier to just answer "yes guard, no guard" etc as appropiate and then report them at a later stage if their conduct warrents it.

I severly doubt the vast majority of guards would behave in such a way, but dont swear unless u want a nice pair of silver linked bracelets and an en suite room with a door handle on only one side, let alone the dent in the wallet from the fine youll get

krd

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Yes technically no but it is covered under the public order act, alot easier to just answer "yes guard, no guard" etc as appropiate and then report them at a later stage if their conduct warrents it.

I severly doubt the vast majority of guards would behave in such a way, but dont swear unless u want a nice pair of silver linked bracelets and an en suite room with a door handle on only one side, let alone the dent in the wallet from the fine youll get

Garda do use "techniques" to elict compliance. These include rudeness and intimidation. These are standard techniques. They are usually not applied to the "right kind of people", but they're standard techniques for the other kind of people.

The technique is to create something in psychology called capture shock. It's a trained technique,,,,,,,,,,,think about any time you've ever had a run in with the Garda,,, Did you seriously think those rocket scientists had dreamed up those ways of making you feel very uncomfortable all by themselves, or did you think these were trained techniques.

I can't trawl the statute books as they've been written in law society esperanto.

The question, is not, is it legal to cause a grievous wound to a Garda. It's, is it legal to tell one to go **** themselves,, without any combined Illegal act.

TheNog

krd wrote: »

is it legal to tell one to go **** themselves,, without any combined Illegal act.

Read my post above. Telling someone (be it a Garda or not) to "**** off" or to " **** themselves" is abusive language is therefore contrary to Section 6 of the Public Order Act 1994. You can be arrested for being abusive. Penalty can not exceed €625 and/or 3 months imprisonment.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0006.html#zza2y1994s6

McCrack

krd wrote: »

Garda do use "techniques" to elict compliance. These include rudeness and intimidation. These are standard techniques. They are usually not applied to the "right kind of people", but they're standard techniques for the other kind of people.

The technique is to create something in psychology called capture shock. It's a trained technique,,,,,,,,,,,think about any time you've ever had a run in with the Garda,,, Did you seriously think those rocket scientists had dreamed up those ways of making you feel very uncomfortable all by themselves, or did you think these were trained techniques.

I can't trawl the statute books as they've been written in law society esperanto.

The question, is not, is it legal to cause a grievous wound to a Garda. It's, is it legal to tell one to go **** themselves,, without any combined Illegal act.

You seem educated. I can't understand why youre asking the same question twice when it was answered before.
A dog on the street knows that it is a criminal offence to use abusive language towards a Garda in the execution of his duty. That's common sense.

I feel you're trying to scrape at something else here under a guise.

Hobart

There are many ways of telling somebody (including the Gardai) to **** off, without actually telling them to **** off.

Trojan911

krd wrote: »

Is it legal to say
"Thank you very much Garda,, as you can see, I'm not breaking any law. Would you kindly **** the **** off" or Or more simple "Go **** yourself"

As pointed out, it may fall into the realms of the Public Order Act & you may end up being prosecuted.

But my question is, why be rude back? You are only lowering yourself to their level. If this was the case one could clearly see the officer was being unprofessional. There are policies & procedures in place to complain of incivility or rudeness.

kmick

I find a polite 'are you having a bad day guard?' turns them into absolute nazis. I deffo would not curse at them.

seamus

I would imagine that being generally cheeky without using abusive language could be construed as being "unco-operative" and may serve as justification for searches under the misuse of drugs act and so forth.

I'm always baffled by people who seem to think they've scored some sort of moral victory by acting like a cheeky teenager with Gardai. They're doing a job. The more you co-operate, the quicker they can leave you at it and the more time they have to find actual lawbreakers. If they have to waste their time dealing with you because you're acting like a moron, then you can add yourself to the blame when your house is robbed.

Tom Young

Comments like: "I pay your wages" also don't go down too well!

pirelli

seamus wrote: »

I would imagine that being generally cheeky without using abusive language could be construed as being "unco-operative" and may serve as justification for searches under the misuse of drugs act and so forth.

I'm always baffled by people who seem to think they've scored some sort of moral victory by acting like a cheeky teenager with Gardai. They're doing a job. The more you co-operate, the quicker they can leave you at it and the more time they have to find actual lawbreakers. If they have to waste their time dealing with you because you're acting like a moron, then you can add yourself to the blame when your house is robbed.

I agree; the gardai are; in comparison to our british counterparts, perhaps less agressive ( the british police have gone militant usa style ) but young gardai are very immature themselves and act more like belligerent fools than professional police. Many people get that impression that they are in fact a complete waste of time and they are 171,000 failed court cases are a testament to their stubborn stupidity.

Thats nearly two million peoples time and money wasted in ten years, because some super in templemore is training them and not accounting for their belligerent and pathetic behaviour in the station houses where nothing is recorded, filed or documented properly by these goons. Some ban garda has to manage the entire station while the lads mess about in the patrol car.

Remeber that you tube fiasco , complete 10 years old's that shouldn't be let loose on the public.

Then again thank humanity for the professional and mature gardai particuarly the ban garda they are always much more assidious and have a greater attention to detail and much provide a more competent, and reliable service.I know it sounds sexist, but it is true, and has been proven by trial and error statisically by myself.

Those proffesional gardai combined with their much more passive role make them ok, but that isn't to say the gardai as a whole are good, they are not their are too many corrupt senior gardai, Inspectors and superintendents have a large percentage of corrupt police activities under their belt. They get their through Donegal like tactics.

That's the shocking fact, and they even keep their job despite getting caught.

Tom Young wrote: »

Comments like: "I pay your wages" also don't go down too well!

Yeah, and comments like you " I don't pay your wages as***" doesn't work either.

sdanseo

I smell a troll tbh. That or the OP told a Garda to F*** off and is worried...

Worldismyidea

Just be polite. It's easier. Give them your name and address (it's an offence to refuse). And then say nothing else. That'll make them really angry but they won't be able to do anything about it.

krd

sdonn_1 wrote: »

I smell a troll tbh. That or the OP told a Garda to F*** off and is worried...

You're paranoid about trolls. I bet you think there's one living under every bridge, you clipity clop across.

No, I have never told a Garda to **** off. And I have never been charged or convicted of a criminal offence.

I have had run ins with Garda that have turned sadistic and disrespectful. I have never been uppity enough to talk back.

Anyone who abuses their position of power, for the purposes of gaining pleasure from inflicting humilation,,,is a scumbag,, track suit or no track suit,, Garda uniform or no uniform. Some people see these scumbags as heroes,, some don't.

Anyway ,,, I have been stripped naked by Garda.. I've had a little Garda **** taunt me and make personal remarks,, with my clothes off. Once when I described some of my experiences with the Gardai to an Egyptian friend, he said the techniques used against me were very similar to techniques used by the the Egyptian security forces.

And if you're curious to what I was "detained", strip searched and humiliated for. I was in possesion of a clearly labelled medication, which had been prescribe to me by my doctor. I was released without charge after several hours of crap, when the garda had actually confirmed I was not in possesion of a controlled substance.

Most of the heroin in Ireland is brought in by one person. One very rich person with a high public profile. Who you will never see their name appear in a newspaper tying them to the heroin trade, as they have very large legitimate business interests. The garda won't touch them either,,, but they'll **** around with me. (but the last time.. was the last time...if they ever try and make me take my clothes off again, they better be ready to lose an eye or a tooth,, law or no law)


And another point,,,, having an opinion contary to accepted elitist or majoritarian consensus, does not make one automatically a troll.

krd

And to some of you,, who believe the police should have more powers to get at the bad people.

In countries where police have greater powers. The boys cruise around in their cars and haul in girls walking home by themselves, who they believe not to be from well connected families. They then make an offer,, have some sex with the blue bottles or go to jail for six months on some bogus public order offence.

This is not the distant past,, this is the now.

A woman I know, told me of the nightmares she would have, before she came to Ireland, of having her ten year old daughter picked up and raped by the police as she made her way back from school.


A police state is a lawless state.

Victor

I think it depends on context and also, members of the garda are expected to have a somewhat thick skin.

If you are wandering down the street signing dirty Limericks to yourself and the only other person around is a garda, there is little they can do.

If a garda is directing traffic and this means you have to take a huge, unreasonable detour and you exclaim (while pointing) "Ah, feck off garda, I live in that house there.", then again I don't think you've reached the level sufficient for a prosecution.

However, having a GAA-teams worth of lads shouting abuse while doing the can-can, isn't on.

---

A German court ruled it legal to call police there "pigs" (descriptively, not abusively).

McCrack

This has really descended into a free-for-all Garda Bashing thread. Some of it would be quite humorous if the people spouting off werent actually serious. Alas they are.

I'd say take it over to the emergency discussion forum where you will get plenty of the "blue bottles" to engage with.

krd

McCrack wrote: »

This has really descended into a free-for-all Garda Bashing thread. Some of it would be quite humorous if the people spouting off werent actually serious. Alas they are.

I'd say take it over to the emergency discussion forum where you will get plenty of the "blue bottles" to engage with.

I'm not garda bashing.

I won't bash a garda unless they'll try and bash me.

We can call it an unwritten social contract.

krd

Victor wrote: »

---

A German court ruled it legal to call police there "pigs" (descriptively, not abusively).

I suppose... I've seen plenty of big fat german police. Pig, probably would be a fair description.

TheNog

pirelli wrote: »

Many people get that impression that they are in fact a complete waste of time and they are 171,000 failed court cases are a testament to their stubborn stupidity.

Thats nearly two million peoples time and money wasted in ten years,

Where is your source for the 171,000 failed cases? Does failed cases mean no convictions? and does your source indicate how many cases resulted in a successful prosecution in the same time period?

krd wrote: »

I have had run ins with Garda that have turned sadistic and disrespectful. I have never been uppity enough to talk back.

Anyone who abuses their position of power, for the purposes of gaining pleasure from inflicting humilation,,,is a scumbag,, track suit or no track suit,, Garda uniform or no uniform. Some people see these scumbags as heroes,, some don't.

Anyway ,,, I have been stripped naked by Garda.. I've had a little Garda **** taunt me and make personal remarks,, with my clothes off. Once when I described some of my experiences with the Gardai to an Egyptian friend, he said the techniques used against me were very similar to techniques used by the the Egyptian security forces.

And if you're curious to what I was "detained", strip searched and humiliated for. I was in possesion of a clearly labelled medication, which had been prescribe to me by my doctor. I was released without charge after several hours of crap, when the garda had actually confirmed I was not in possesion of a controlled substance.

Most of the heroin in Ireland is brought in by one person. One very rich person with a high public profile. Who you will never see their name appear in a newspaper tying them to the heroin trade, as they have very large legitimate business interests. The garda won't touch them either,,, but they'll **** around with me. (but the last time.. was the last time...if they ever try and make me take my clothes off again, they better be ready to lose an eye or a tooth,, law or no law)

OP If this happened to you and I say 'if' cos we only have your word for it (not that I don't believe you), did you make a complaint. If this did happen I would be absolutely disgusted. There would be a record of you being brought into the station.

just thinking there about why you were kept in the station for hours. There is no need to keep a person in the station for hours for a drug search. If drugs are found on a person (amount for sale) then that person could be detained for questioning.

CO19

Trojan911 wrote: »

There are policies & procedures in place to complain of incivility or rudeness.

But how do you prove that they were insulting/rude etc to you when you do complian won't it just be your word against his and his colleague if they had one with them at the time cause let's face it the colleague is hardly goin to say that his colleague was insulting/abusive now are they ?

So is there really any point in complaining because the chances of them being punished for their behaviour is very minimal and they know this at the time they'd be behaving like that towards you thus them thinking they can say what they like without repercussion.

Trojan911

CO19 wrote: »

But how do you prove that they were insulting/rude etc to you when you do complian won't it just be your word against his and his colleague if they had one with them at the time

You lodge a complaint. It is possible the officer has several similar complaints against him/her & this will be looked at.

CO19 wrote: »

cause let's face it the colleague is hardly goin to say that his colleague was insulting/abusive now are they ?

You sure about that? You don't know that. Two Police Forces I know of, for example, The Met & NYPD, whistleblowing is a way to climb up the ladder i.e. Integrity is non-negotionable etc.

CO19 wrote: »

So is there really any point in complaining because the chances of them being punished for their behaviour is very minimal and they know this at the time they'd be behaving like that towards you thus them thinking they can say what they like without repercussion.

So, are you suggesting the complaints procedure is chucked out? There is no point in having one? A blinkered view you have there.

There is every point in complaining. If you are not happy with a service, then complain, otherwise it goes unchallenged.

pirelli

TheNog wrote: »

Where is your source for the 171,000 failed cases? Does failed cases mean no convictions? and does your source indicate how many cases resulted in a successful prosecution in the same time period?



TheNog, I agree people should back facts up and produce figures to support there material and so fort, but to be honest, it was all over the media, and i am not trawling through some website to prove something that quite frankly would be within the realm of current affairs, but since i did not provide this fact and you asked , less than 10 % were succesfully prosecuted.

pirelli

krd wrote: »

And to some of you,, who believe the police should have more powers to get at the bad people.

In countries where police have greater powers. The boys cruise around in their cars and haul in girls walking home by themselves, who they believe not to be from well connected families. They then make an offer,, have some sex with the blue bottles or go to jail for six months on some bogus public order offence.

This is not the distant past,, this is the now.

A woman I know, told me of the nightmares she would have, before she came to Ireland, of having her ten year old daughter picked up and raped by the police as she made her way back from school.


A police state is a lawless state.

She wasn't witness to when her daughter was raped, people always disguise and hide who they are. They may have said they were the police, but they might not have been. Police commit crimes just like everyone else though.

TheNog

pirelli wrote: »

TheNog, I agree people should back facts up and produce figures to support there material and so fort, but to be honest, it was all over the media, and i am not trawling through some website to prove something that quite frankly would be within the realm of current affairs, but since i did not provide this fact and you asked , less than 10 % were succesfully prosecuted.

It is well known on boards that if you want to post fact you must have proof but in this case you will/cannot provide that link.

I found one link for 2008 prosecutions. Only 10% resulted in no prosecution

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0728/1217013340437.html

Was this info reported recently? tbh I never saw it in the papers

sdanseo

krd wrote: »

You're paranoid about trolls. I bet you think there's one living under every bridge, you clipity clop across.

No, I simply got the impression that you were trolling because you were, in my opinion, overly critical of the Gardaí and indeed other police forces (To the extent of saying that 'Pig' is an adequate description of the German Police).

You made it quite clear that you think the allegged grievances you suffered at the hands of Gardaí to be standard practice, which is quite a serious allegation and is certainly contrary to any experience I've had or heard of someone having had with AGS.

krd wrote:

I have the upmost respect for all garda, and members of the law society. And their efforts to maintain, at all costs, the social order of the republic of Ireland.

Somehow I find that very hard to believe.

krd wrote: »

No, I have never told a Garda to **** off. And I have never been charged or convicted of a criminal offence.

Which begs the question - Why did you start the thread? Perhaps because you were trolling? Granted, perhaps not - but certainly it was and remains a possibility.

krd wrote: »

I have had run ins with Garda that have turned sadistic and disrespectful. I have never been uppity enough to talk back.

Then make a complaint.

krd wrote: »

Anyway ,,, I have been stripped naked by Garda.. I've had a little Garda **** taunt me and make personal remarks,, with my clothes off. Once when I described some of my experiences with the Gardai to an Egyptian friend, he said the techniques used against me were very similar to techniques used by the the Egyptian security forces.

As above, make a complaint. No point in moaning about it here unless you're willing to follow it through officially.

krd wrote: »

And if you're curious to what I was "detained", strip searched and humiliated for. I was in possesion of a clearly labelled medication, which had been prescribe to me by my doctor. I was released without charge after several hours of crap, when the garda had actually confirmed I was not in possesion of a controlled substance.

I never asked, we've all been stopped by the Guards at some stage and I'm sure 95% of us have been doing nothing wrong. I also never incinuated that you were. Again though, did you complain to the ombudsman or the Sergeant at the time? Did you take epaulette numbers etc?

krd wrote: »

Most of the heroin in Ireland is brought in by one person. One very rich person with a high public profile. Who you will never see their name appear in a newspaper tying them to the heroin trade, as they have very large legitimate business interests. The garda won't touch them either,,, but they'll **** around with me. (but the last time.. was the last time...if they ever try and make me take my clothes off again, they better be ready to lose an eye or a tooth, law or no law)

That's a great attitude, sink to their level and let them arrest you for serious assault causing harm. Unless you have an undying curiosity to experience slopping out, I'd do nothing of the sort. They would be perfectly within their rights to ASP you out of it too.

krd wrote: »

And another point, having an opinion contary to accepted elitist or majoritarian consensus, does not make one automatically a troll.

Clearly not. Refer to my first comment in this reply.

CO19

Trojan911 wrote: »

You lodge a complaint. It is possible the officer has several similar complaints against him/her & this will be looked at.

That's if they have any before in the first place and if they do have several already surely that should tell his seniors that this guys a bad one

Trojan911 wrote: »

You sure about that? You don't know that. Two Police Forces I know of, for example, The Met & NYPD, whistleblowing is a way to climb up the ladder i.e. Integrity is non-negotionable etc.

Well I'd put alot of weighting on the colleague not backing up the person who makes the complaint but backing up his colleague.
The chances of a fellow Garda reporting the behaviour of another is very slim if something like this was to happen because let's say they do say when asked about the behaviour of their colleague and they do say yes that he was out of order and was insulting etc etc then after it all that officer in question is either sacked or whatever the officer that reported him has to continue working in that station where the sacked officer may have had friends so this is why in my opinion that most officers will not back up the wronged member of public in cases like that i.e being insulted etc by a Garda.

Trojan911 wrote: »

So, are you suggesting the complaints procedure is chucked out? There is no point in having one? A blinkered view you have there.

There is every point in complaining. If you are not happy with a service, then complain, otherwise it goes unchallenged.

Absolutely not,I just mean I see no point in complaining about being insulted etc by a Garda as the chances as I said of them being found to have actually done it are slim to none and this is why with some of them they feel they can do it to you.

Trojan911

CO19 wrote: »

The chances of a fellow Garda reporting the behaviour of another is very slim if something like this was to happen because let's say they do say when asked about the behaviour of their colleague and they do say yes that he was out of order and was insulting etc etc then after it all that officer in question is either sacked or whatever the officer that reported him has to continue working in that station where the sacked officer may have had friends so this is why in my opinion that most officers will not back up the wronged member of public in cases like that i.e being insulted etc by a Garda.

And this, my friend, is where the system fails. It makes the witnessing officer as corrupt as the insulting one if he/she lies to protect his/her colleague for whatever offence. They are not worthy of the uniform they wear or oath they took when joining.

CO19

Very true it fails for things like insulting behaviour etc because no colleague in my opinion is going to report another for something like that maybe if they were violent towards someone then yes but for insulting or being abusive to someone then yes this is where it fails because more times than not they will get away with it.