Baiting of motorists?

Rowley Birkin QC

I'm convinced that I was bated this morning by an unmarked travelling at about 90km/h from Nenagh to Limerick. I came up behind ready to overtake and noticed the flashers on the rear screen so backed off. I had a line of traffic behind me so one guy overtook at maybe 105-110km/h in an overtaking lane, on came the blue flashers and the guy got pulled.

Really didn't know what to make of the situation. I am wary of passing out a squad car at any point, especially an unmarked travelling at this speed, i.e. within 10% of the speed limit, but this really did smack of bating on the part of the guard. It also crossed my mind that the cop was travelling at this speed given the road conditions that were prevalent this morning and maybe his intention was to slow down traffic to a safer speed??

Again I personally can't make up my mind so I'm throwing it over to to motors for opinions...

What do you think?

Just want to make it clear that my experience of the Guards has been mostly excellent and I would consider them to be a highly professional police force, this incident this morning just had me confused.

Steve

What were the road conditions at the time?

In Dublin this morning on the M50, viz was so bad in the rain that >100kmh wasn't a good idea in some spots.

cyrusdvirus

SteveC wrote: »

What were the road conditions at the time?

In Dublin this morning on the M50, viz was so bad in the rain that >100kmh wasn't a good idea in some spots.

Seconded. Iggots were still playing spot me if you can with their lights off though

Rowley Birkin QC

There was rain and slight amounts of standing water in some parts of the road but visibility was pretty good. It had been poorer earlier in the morning but at this time it was good.

s14driftking

u were being baited imo they were always at it when i used to travel tat stretch of road

RedorDead

bigkev49 wrote: »

I'm convinced that I was bated this morning by an unmarked travelling at about 90km/h from Nenagh to Limerick. I came up behind ready to overtake and noticed the flashers on the rear screen so backed off. I had a line of traffic behind me so one guy overtook at maybe 105-110km/h in an overtaking lane, on came the blue flashers and the guy got pulled.

Really didn't know what to make of the situation. I am wary of passing out a squad car at any point, especially an unmarked travelling at this speed, i.e. within 10% of the speed limit, but this really did smack of bating on the part of the guard. It also crossed my mind that the cop was travelling at this speed given the road conditions that were prevalent this morning and maybe his intention was to slow down traffic to a safer speed??

Again I personally can't make up my mind so I'm throwing it over to to motors for opinions...

What do you think?

Just want to make it clear that my experience of the Guards has been mostly excellent and I would consider them to be a highly professional police force, this incident this morning just had me confused.

Did this happen in the climbing lane? Ive spotted them doing speed checks at the end of that climbing lane before the feckers!

ian25

Could he have been done for overtaking two cars at once, or did he pull in infront of you and then overtook the guards.

Rowley Birkin QC

It was basically all the way from Nenagh to outside Lisnagary when he pulled the guy. Don't know what happened after that as to whether or not he got points or a warning but he pulled him in anyway.

He passed me and the squad car in the climbing lane, albeit at maybe 5-10km over the speed limit.

_Kaiser_

ian25 wrote: »

Could he have been done for overtaking two cars at once, or did he pull in infront of you and then overtook the guards.

It's illegal to overtake more than two cars at once now? I regularly end up doing it to get past a slow moving convoy where the second-from-lead car won't overtake when it's safe to do so.

Henry Ford III

bigkev49 wrote: »

It was basically all the way from Nenagh to outside Lisnagary when he pulled the guy. Don't know what happened after that as to whether or not he got points or a warning but he pulled him in anyway.

He passed me and the squad car in the climbing lane, albeit at maybe 5-10km over the speed limit.

I see the problem right there

Rowley Birkin QC

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I see the problem right there

No objection regarding the actual offence being committed but it was the behaviour of the squad car leading up to it that drew my attention.

Wishbone Ash

ian25 wrote: »

Could he have been done for overtaking two cars at once

Unless a new regulation has been brought in overnight and no one was made aware of it!

Buffman

bigkev49 wrote: »

No objection regarding the actual offence being committed but it was the behaviour of the squad car leading up to it that drew my attention.

I don't really get what behaviour you're refering too, from what I can gather from your post the patrol car was travelling at 90km/h in a 100km/h limit, a car overtook both you and it and got pulled. What exactly is wrong with that?

Steve

bigkev49 wrote: »

No objection regarding the actual offence being committed but it was the behaviour of the squad car leading up to it that drew my attention.

If it was only 5-10k over then I'd have a hard time believing it was a speed stop. The Guards might have had other reasons for stopping them though (e.g. someone that was on the wanted list).

AFAIK the courts take a very dim view of entrapment and as such any speeding charges arising from this would be difficult to prosecute.

Dolph Starbeam

Happened to me before, going between 45 and 50 in a 60 zone for about 3 miles, about 10 cars lined up behind me, of course a "D" reg. Mondeo, i should have known, waited for a clear gap as i was just getting pissed off at this stage, i caught about 2 metres of one of those hatched boxes in the middle of the road, lights come on, sorrry sir. etc. etc. do you realise what you just did? Ye i passed in that silver mondeo in the hatched (*i take a quick peek in my mirror, silver mondeo*) ah cock!!!!

Rowley Birkin QC

I guess it just seemed to me that he was waiting and waiting for someone to pass him out so that he could pull him in for speeding while overtaking. I mean he drove inside the hard shoulder/yellow line a number of times.

-Chris-

I remember when penalty points came out originally I was driving on some residential roads (the reallly long straight road from Taney junction to Long Mile Road, if anyone knows it) and I found myself sitting behind a Garda car.

They were doing bang on 50KMs/30MPH and were pushed right over into the cycle lane, as if to say "go on, overtake us, you know you want to". Luckily I spotted that is was them and I just sat tight, but I'd believe that I was being tested also.

Bear in mind though, that we were being tested rather than baited - it doesn't sound like anyone was being provoked into speeding in either instance, merely tested to see if we'd be tempted to overtake illegally...

Biro

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I see the problem right there

5-10km/h is within 10% of the limit, and judged by a squad car with presumably no calibrated equipment monitoring the offender. Hard to nail that in court, although there may be something else.

Fyr.Fytr

So a car travelling just below the speed limit is a trap?

Yea good one, there can be 101 reasons why the guards decided to stop the other vehicle, would you rather they stopped no one and our road network become a safe haven for traveling criminals?

TheNog

Tbh I don't believe for a second that anyone was being baited to overtake by the unmarked car. They were travelling just over the limit at 90kph to aid the flow of traffic keeping in mind that the guard or gardai in the car were scanning oncoming traffic for registration numbers, the drivers and passengers (for any recognised criminals) and for vehicles being driven in dangerous manner. When that driver overtook a car already doing over the limit they probably just stopped it to caution him/her only with no prosecution unless the garda did see them doing something dangerous to other road users such as overtake multiple cars.

THat is all, nothing more. Happens regularly

jimmycrackcorm

Without a speed detector, I can't see how the guards could prosecute the overtaking driver as the proof would be inadequate. how can they tell how much faster that the guy was going - especially if they were travelling at less than the speed limit?

Seth Brundle

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

So a car travelling just below the speed limit is a trap?

Not directly, however drivers who wish to make better progress on the roads will feel inclined to overtake. When overtaking, the manouvre should be completed ASAP and if this means exceeding the limit slightly then most good drivers will do this. However, this results in the overtaking driver pulling in front of the squad car above the limit.

cyclopath2001

kbannon wrote: »

if this means exceeding the limit slightly then most good drivers will do this.

If you have to break the speed limit while overtaking that means you didn't plan the manouvre correctly. Breaking the speed limit should only happen in unforeseen circumstances.

magick

well if he was bating you, what do u drive? Do u have the whole boy racer look (if not then sorry to be insulting ) ? If not then what do u think the reason was for him to go after you?

eringobragh

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

If you have to break the speed limit while overtaking that means you didn't plan the manouvre correctly. Breaking the speed limit should only happen in unforeseen circumstances.

I said i'd ignore your trolling as your only contribution to motoring is trolling EVERY thread releated to speed limits

But for the love of God get a grip this is the real world, sometimes you have to weight your options and decide what is the greater good i.e keeping the speedlimit while overtaking and possibly encountering a collision or actually use your nogin & put some 'advanced' driving into practice.

The whole idea of overtaking on a single lane road is to complete the manouver as quickly and safely as possible & at time this may involve breaking the speed limit.

Maybe give this a read, you might learn something.

Overtaking Trucks

Trucks travelling at the new open road speed limit of 90 kph will be almost impossible to pass legally. A 90 kph speed limit for heavy trucks and 100 kph for other traffic is practicable.

A car passing a truck travelling at 90 kph will require almost 2 kilometres of clear road ahead if the car observes the rigidly enforced 100 kph limit and the 2 second separation rule before overtaking.

The impact will be that drivers either break the law or effectively the open road speed limit will be reduced to 90 kph.

Calculation

Based on Truck and 90 kph, 2 sec separation beforehand, 10 metre clearance at end, allowing for oncoming traffic at 100kph + 10% clearance of that:

90 kph = 90,000/3600 = 25 metres/sec.

100 kph = 100,000/3600 = 27.8 metres/sec

Distance to pass = (2 x 25) + (Length of Truck) + 10 + (Length of Car)

Say car is 5 metres, truck is 20 metres, then

Relative distance to pass = 50 + 20 + 10 + 5 = 85 metres

Time to pass = 85 metres / 2.8 metres/sec = 30.4 seconds

Distance travelled to pass = 27.8 * 30.4 = 844 metres

Clear distance required to oncoming traffic = (844 x 2) (+ 10%) = 1688 x 1.1

= 1,856 metres = 1.9 kilometres.

Compare this with the similar situation but overtaking at 120 kph and allowing for oncoming traffic at up to 120 kph:

120 kph = 120,000/3600 = 33.3 metres/sec

Time to pass = 85 metres / ( (33.3 - 25) = 8.3) metres/sec = 10.2 secs

Distance travelled to pass = 33.3 x 10.2 = 341 metres

Clear distance required to oncoming traffic = (341 x 2) (+10%) = 682 x 1.1

= 750 metres (allowing for oncoming traffic at 120 kph!)

The overtaking car has also to cope with the possibility that the truck will accelerate during the overtaking process.

The consequence of this is that few cars will be prepared and able to overtake large trucks, average speeds will fall resulting in economic loss through time wasted as well as through more accidents caused by driver frustration.

walshy123

TheNog wrote: »

Tbh I don't believe for a second that anyone was being baited to overtake by the unmarked car. They were travelling just over the limit at 90kph to aid the flow of traffic keeping in mind that the guard or gardai in the car were scanning oncoming traffic for registration numbers, the drivers and passengers (for any recognised criminals) and for vehicles being driven in dangerous manner. When that driver overtook a car already doing over the limit they probably just stopped it to caution him/her only with no prosecution unless the garda did see them doing something dangerous to other road users such as overtake multiple cars.

THat is all, nothing more. Happens regularly

your assuming the limit was 80km?

cyclopath2001

eringobragh wrote: »

sometimes you have to weight your options and decide what is the greater good i.e keeping the speedlimit while overtaking and possibly encountering a collision or actually use your nogin & put some 'advanced' driving into practice..

Or.... just not overtaking. Advanced driving is not just about skill, it's about discipline and patience.

peasant

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

patience.

quite frankly ...mine is running out.

just give it (and all of us) a break for a while, will you?

eringobragh

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Or.... just not overtaking. Advanced driving is not just about skill, it's about discipline and patience.

Granted ,but when i'm overtaking i want the manouver completed without the delay & if that means speeding while overtaking so be it. TBH I Think you should stick to the Bicycle:rolleyes:

BoardsRanger

gatecrash wrote: »

Seconded. Iggots were still playing spot me if you can with their lights off though

given the current price of petrol/diesel, it is perfectly acceptable to drive in zero visability conditions with no lights on!
i was driving in the wicklow mountains today in thick fog and some clown in a mercedes didnt deem it necessary to put his lights on!!

Tails142

Isnt there something in the rules of the road (the old version anyway) about it being permissable to exceed the speed limit during an overtaking manoeuvre??

EDIT: After looking up the new one, it says you must NOT I must have a look at the old one though cos I'm nearly positive I read that somewhere.

Andrewf20

On that road parrallel to the main runway at Dublin Airport, I came across an unmarked mondeo doing 40-45mph on this 50mph limit road. I was dying to overtake, but decided against it. Pain in the hole having to worry about this stuff.

eringobragh

Andrewf20 wrote: »

On that road parrallel ot the main runway at Dublin Airport, I came a cross an unmarked mondeo doing 40-45mph on this 50mph limit road. I was dying to overtake, but decided against it. Pain in the hole having to worry about this stuff.

I know!!

On my way home from work a few weeks ago there was a mondeo on the N4 and I said will i overtake it so i 'asessed' it and saw the 2 aerial stumps on teh roof along with one attached aerial. Anyways this bloke is a modded car blows by them but doesn't get pulled... obviously not traffic cops!

Sponge Bob

bigkev49 wrote: »

I'm convinced that I was baited this morning by an unmarked travelling at about 90km/h from Nenagh to Limerick.

I had one unmark pull off the hard shoulder in front of me once on an EMPTY M4 west of Leixlip bridge and tool along at about 50mph to nearly Maynooth , I slowed down and followed him. He sped up gradually until he hit 90mph with me well behind by now albeit at 90mph .

He eventually he left the motorway at Kilcock and went back to bait someone coming from the west instead .

Different baiting on a busy road though but on an empty Motorway in good conditions , WFT

drunkmonkey

Tails142 wrote: »

Isnt there something in the rules of the road (the old version anyway) about it being permissable to exceed the speed limit during an overtaking manoeuvre??

Not that i'm aware of, I got done for overtaking a jeep with a horsebox....felt a bit hard done by.....

I don't think the Garda bate motorists, not all Garda like to speed, some of them are happy enough to sit back under the speed limit, I've never had any problem after overtaking a garda car that was travelling under the speed limit.....

What I have seen is a speedtap after a speedtrap, I thought it was a cunning move by the officers involved....Basically there was an obvious speeding checkpoint, once passed it every motorist speed up again, low and behold just round the next bend was the bunch of garda bikers ready to catch all the guys who just thought they'd got away with it and started speeding again...brilliant...thankfully I copped it in time...

peasant

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I had one unmark pull off the hard shoulder in front of me once on an EMPTY M4 west of Leixlip bridge and tool along at about 50mph to nearly Maynooth , I slowed down and followed him. He sped up gradually until he hit 90mph with me well behind by now albeit at 90mph .

He eventually he left the motorway at Kilcock and went back to bait someone coming from the west instead .

Different baiting on a busy road though but on an empty Motorway in good conditions , WFT

Huh?

Why on earth didn'y you overtake? He's doing 80 in the driving lane on a motorway, what on earth is preventing you from overtaking him in a well executed maneuvre at max 120 km/h?

I don't see any issue here ...never mind baiting.

eringobragh

peasant wrote: »

Huh?

Why on earth didn'y you overtake? He's doing 80 in the driving lane on a motorway, what on earth is preventing you from overtaking him in a well executed maneuvre at max 120 km/h?

I don't see any issue here ...never mind baiting.

I second that he can hardly do you for overtaking him (unless there was roadworks and a special limit)

Steve

Sponge Bob wrote: »

........tool along at about 50mph to nearly Maynooth , I slowed down and followed him. He sped up gradually until he hit 90mph with me well behind by now albeit at 90mph .

Monkey see - monkey do????

I've overtaken plenty of squad cars (marked and unmarked) on motorways, it's not illegal.:)

Wishbone Ash

eringobragh wrote:

Say car is 5 metres, truck is 20 metres, then

Just wondering where you got that link from eringobragh.

Apologies for being pedantic but the maximum permitted length for any vehicle is 18 metres (unless it has a special permit for carrying an indivisible load). Most articulated trucks are about 15 metres.

drunkmonkey

peasant wrote: »

Huh?

Why on earth didn'y you overtake?

I don't see any issue here ...never mind baiting.

+1

Monkey thinks you were a little afraid, this was your first time and you bottleld it.......Garda don't bait people, robbers do!!:D

eringobragh

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Just wondering where you got that link from eringobragh.

Apologies for being pedantic but the maximum permitted length for any vehicle is 18 metres (unless it has a special permit for carrying an indivisible load). Most articulated trucks are about 15 metres.

No problem mate i used this case as an example of the difference in distance that going a bit over the limit can make when overtaking.

http://www.fastandsafe.org.nz/Pages/Facts/OvertakingTrucks/index.htm

peasant

drunkmonkey wrote: »

+1

Monkey thinks you were a little afraid, this was your first time and you bottleld it

Peasant thinks we should leave talking in the third person to the one and only Pighead (who luckily doesn't make any appearances here)

Sponge Bob

SteveC wrote: »

Monkey see - monkey do????
I've overtaken plenty of squad cars (marked and unmarked) on motorways, it's not illegal.:)

I have CHASED squad cars down motorways but they were obviously 'busy' before I chased them

This lad looked bored and you can't trust a bored traffic cop .

knifey_spoonie

Sponge Bob wrote: »

you can't trust a bored traffic cop .

FIXED

I felt the very same thing happened to me on sunday, was driving along at about 55-60 mph in a 50 zone, came up behind a marked fiesta, he was doing no more than 25-30 mph, but heres the clincher whenever he got to a straight bit of road with clear viability, he was back up to the speed limit.

HoneyButterfly

I Think he was right to pull him in. There's no need to pass out a car going 90km...thats only slighty under the limit. So even if he was baiting, it worked didn't it?!
Does my head in when people pass me out when I'm doing the limit or just under it. I'm interested to know what kind of road it was though, and what the conditions were like?

Steve

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I have CHASED squad cars down motorways but they were obviously 'busy' before I chased them

Did you ever catch one...?

Fair enough, it's still not a reason to slow down just because he's under the limit though.:p

Steve

knife_fighter wrote: »

I felt the very same thing happened to me on sunday, was driving along at about 55-60 mph in a 50 zone, came up behind a marked fiesta, he was doing no more than 25-30 mph, but heres the clincher whenever he got to a straight bit of road with clear viability, he was back up to the speed limit.

I have highlighted the root cause of this for you.;)

drunkmonkey

HoneyButterfly wrote: »

Does my head in when people pass me out when I'm doing the limit or just under it?

Have you the cruise control on?, does my head on when motorists who think there doing the speed limit flucuate between 75 - 100........you can make good progress within the limits and not get over taken.....

wil

Not so much baiting as checking your alertness and powers of observation. It is never a good idea to pass a squad car at anything above the limit, you are just asking for trouble.
The gardai are mostly human too and no doubt liable to the odd spot of boredom, so tempting them is for the terminally silly.

In the Uk they have been known to play "snooker"
Pull a red car, then a colour, then a red then etc etc.
Though they tend to be a bit more reliable in their tolerance though than the lads here. I've rarely seen people pulled by the police for <85mph on motorways, unless they were doing something stupid. yet I have seen someone pulled for crawling past a garda car at most a few kph above the limit. Not cricket.

Andrewf20

I would have no probs overtaking the cops on a motorway if they are below the limit. On a single lane road, it would be very unlikely for me to do it. Having said that, I had a bizarre incident early last year.

- Me on M50 before roadworks started, 11pm heading towards Finglas exit at 75mph in slow lane (inside/outside lane, I can never remember).
- Overtook car doing 60mph and pulled back in. Cop car 400m ahead of me going in same direction at 60mph.
- Overtook cop car doing 60mph and pulled back in. Another car a few hundred metres ahead of me that was trundling along.
- Overtook this as well and moved back in.
- Took Finglas exit, stopped at red light with Joe Duffys to my left. Waiting to take 3rd exit for Ashbourne.
- Cop car comes up beside me, gets me to roll down the window.
- Conversation something like this:

Cop: "Weren't sure where you were going there, were you?"
Me: "What do you mean?"
Cop: "With your weaving in and out of traffic"
Me: "I was just overtaking intermittent traffic and moving back in to the correct lane"
Cop: "Just watch yourself in future", with a big stern look, and he then speeds off.

I indicated correctly as well. You never know what you'll get.

mcwhirter

Biro wrote: »

5-10km/h is within 10% of the limit, and judged by a squad car with presumably no calibrated equipment monitoring the offender. Hard to nail that in court, although there may be something else.

Speedometers are generally designed to read fast by about 10% ( so when you are driving at 120km/h, you could really be only doing 108km/h).
And so driving at 132km/h as shown on your speedometer is really 120km/h.

So if the gardai where driving at 50km/h(speedometer reading), this could only be 45km/h. So to overtake them, you would have to have approx. 55km/h (speedometer reading)to be driving at legal speed limit.
It's takes a long time to overtake at only 5km/h more than the other car, so people generally increase their speed and then get prosecuted.
And it is still the gardai word against yours unless they had a speed camera onboard.
Bear in mind though that unoriginal tyres and wheels can affect the actual speed reading.